-
[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;1591151]It does, because it strips T'Challa of 90% of his accomplishments in canon. Stark has his armors, Richards is Richards, but without Wakanda, what is Panther?[/QUOTE]
Why doesnt TChalla fall under Richards is Richards category? Why do we accept the brilliance of one and not the other. Tchalla is one of the smartest men on the planet, and that has been stated countless times.
-
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1591165]Why doesnt TChalla fall under Richards is Richards category? Why do we accept the brilliance of one and not the other. Tchalla is one of the smartest men on the planet, and that has been stated countless times.[/QUOTE]
It's the ol' 'show, don't tell' rule.
How many times have we seen a character introduced as the 'best ever, really!'?
Only Richards is Richards (And Doom,Doom). Every other super genius in Marvel's pantheon has major accomplishments that they can cite as examples of their genius, hell, even Wizard has something (and he sucks).
-
[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;1591151]It does, because it strips T'Challa of 90% of his accomplishments in canon. Stark has his armors, Richards is Richards, but without Wakanda, what is Panther?[/QUOTE]
[B]scientific, strategic, genius and master of every known Martial arts. Tactician, hero. Just because he isn't the sole reason Wakanda is an advanced nation doesn't mean he still doesn't take it to the next level. He still created shadow physics. And has made Wakanda great[/B]
-
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1590957]1. It negated T'Challa's accomplishment in uplifting Wakanda and introducing it to the international change, while balancing it with all the various domestic concerns. A feat not as impressive if Wakanda is advanced and great already. T'Challa is as much a statesman as he is a superhero, as he is a king, as he is a man, as he is a son, as he is a brother. To take that is to shallow his character.
2. It's boring. Atlantis is advanced. Attilan is advanced. Latveria is advanced. Lemuria is advanced. All of them were advanced and had practically no character depth to them as setting. McGregor and Priest achieved so much more with Wakanda as a quickly developing/already developed nation than Hudlin ever did with a super-advanced Wakanda.
3. The cancer cure crap. God how that still gives me a headache.
4. Wakanda's greatness isn't dependent on tech-base. It's about culture, about history, deeds and figures of note. Do people care about the New Gods because they have Mother-Boxs or because of the story that Jack Kirby crafted? Did Don McGregor create one of the best Black Panther runs because he littered it with tech or because he created a living breathing world to enter? [/QUOTE]
As a McGregor and Priest enthusiast, I'll refrain from bad mouthing either one of those luminaries but I'm afraid I won't be jumping on the [B]"diminish Hudlin's contributions to the BP"[/B] bandwagon anytime soon.
McGregor wrote a T'Challa that worked well in the 1970's and Christopher Priest crafted an updated version of the character that evolved back to how he was originally envisioned by Lee and Kirby as an uber-prepped challenger of the unknown.
Reginald Hudlin (on the otherhand,) wrote a Black Panther book that appealed to a lot of people outside of the core fanbase for the character and that's why the freaking book sold so well.
It succeeded in reaching a wider audience and this is a feat that would have been applauded to the high heavens if it had been achieved by any other writer other than Reginald Hudlin.
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1590957]1. Ethiopia says hello. Plus, Wakanda was a relatively small, isolated inland nation. The Great Race need hardly have overtaken it. Elsewhere, I can point to Thailand, the Ottoman Empire, Persia, Afghanistan, Tibet, Japan, etc...
2. Priest actually did a good job with it and it carried a lot of weight in the setting from character perspectives. Hudlin didn't do as good of a job, and it had several glaring problems.
3. Fans don't need to "understand" anything when it comes to a creative change. I really don't know what you're implying there, but I can disagree with what Hudlin did and still appreciate the Black Panther mythos. Or must Majestik "understand" that Hickman had to do what he did in order to ensure that Black Panther took the next step in his development? (Sorry to throw you under the bus there, bud). [/QUOTE]
Figuring out the fact that Hickman had to reduce T'Challa to a bumbling idiot devoid of all tactical awareness to facilitate aspects of the story he chose to tell via New Avengers wasn't that hard to understand once the facade of the first few issues passed and the [B]lying/crying King of the Dead[/B] was fully revealed.
Much empty capital is made out of the supposed "glaring problems" with Hudlin's handling of the BP Mythos but strangely enough none said "problems" prevented his run from outselling those of writers who were supposedly much "better" at writing T'Challa than Reginald Hudlin.
Hickman did more damage to T'Challa than even Maberry managed to do via Doomwar as far as I'm concerned and I'll be exceedingly pleased when his involvement with T'Challa and Wakanda ends once Secret Wars comes to a close.
The bus hasn't been created that I can be thrown under my friend.
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1590957]And I've always found the immediate decision to treat non-fans as anathema baffling. Confront non-fans. Acknowledge and then counter their complaints. Reach out to them. Being insular, critical and defensive is hardly embletic of the character we love and follow, after all. We can fire back and just get mean, but I've never seen the point of that. It lowers us to their standards.[/QUOTE]
I personally see no need to engage with non-fans who've made it abundantly clear that even when T'Challa is portrayed as a doormat, he's still an over powered Gary Stu in their eyes.
As far as I remember, most BP enthusiasts who posted regularly in the BP Appreciation threads (pre-CBR reboot) were usually quite welcoming to all comers so it's not as if anyone was on that insular tip in the first place.
Besides, the very comicbooks themselves have shown us just how "beneficial" T'Challa's openess has been to the very Wakandans he's supposed to be protecting.
T'Challa offers succour to the Avengers during AvX and gets Wakanda flooded for his troubles.
He does the same thing again by inviting the Illuminati onto Wakandan soil behind his sisters back and Wakanda gets destroyed thanks to his stupidity.
I don't see why I'd want to emulate the actions of such a milquetoast character.
-
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1591158][B]going from a lush secluded nation to the most advanced seems hard to believe, especially since other Panthers were very intelligent as well[/B][/QUOTE]
See above, but it's not about intelligence. T'Challa has very clearly (even in Hickman's run) operated on a far different mentality than his predecessors. Chalk it up to his education abroad, chalk it up to his father getting assassinated, chalk it up to whatever. But kings before T'Challa would have happily remained isolated like old Japan to their detriment or to the world until the sun went out. T'Challa would rather engage the world for Wakanda's benefit, and that's the difference maker. Societies can develop on their own independent of outside stimuli, sure. And it might be that the Wakandan's could have independently matched the remainder of the world on their own. Magic in wider use, vibranium in rituals and weapons, actual living god backing them up, heart-shaped herbs, etc...
Or it couldn't have, which T'Challa would have naturally considered after his own father was killed by an outsider, probably the first time in history since Azzari the Wise turned back the Nazis, bought a Canadian island from the French and before that dating all the way back to King Solomon.
These were drastic times, perhaps more drastic and formative than to any other potential king. After all, we never get indication that S'yan pursued different policies than T'Chaka did.
-
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1591158][B]going from a lush secluded nation to the most advanced seems hard to believe, especially since other Panthers were very intelligent as well[/B][/QUOTE]
Yet we believe that cosmic rays make super heroes, not cancer patients ;)
Joking aside, while I understand that physics and political/social reactions are two different things in terms of suspending disbelief, I don't see how T'Challa uplifting his nation crosses that threshold. Plenty of societies have made great leaps before, and none by a Tony Stark level genius at the helm.
-
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1591174][B]scientific, strategic, genius and master of every known Martial arts. Tactician, hero. Just because he isn't the sole reason Wakanda is an advanced nation doesn't mean he still doesn't take it to the next level. He still created shadow physics. And has made Wakanda great[/B][/QUOTE]
By all accounts, Wakanda was already great before him. He just took over, because...he did.
Little underwhelming that, to be honest.
-
[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;1591170]It's the ol' 'show, don't tell' rule.
How many times have we seen a character introduced as the 'best ever, really!'?
Only Richards is Richards (And Doom,Doom). Every other super genius in Marvel's pantheon has major accomplishments that they can cite as examples of their genius, hell, even Wizard has something (and he sucks).[/QUOTE]
BP beat Iron Man with Windex.........mic drop. I see what you are saying but in the average story we dont list all the accomplishments a character has done.
We tale characters as their presented. TChalla is consistently presented as having only a few as his peers.
Of course than one of the main problems I had with the Liss run.
-
[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;1591187]By all accounts, Wakanda was already great before him. He just took over, because...he did.
Little underwhelming that, to be honest.[/QUOTE]
He is the best of the best in a meritocracy.Thats pretty impressive.
-
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1591178]As a McGregor and Priest enthusiast, I'll refrain from bad mouthing either one of those luminaries but I'm afraid I won't be jumping on the [B]"diminish Hudlin's contributions to the BP"[/B] bandwagon anytime soon.[/quote]
Oh, I'm not diminishing his contributions. He added a lot of cool stuff and characters. He gave us Black Panther and Storm as a couple. He gave us Shuri. T'Challa was selling very well. I got Kraven in a Black Panther story. So on and so forth.
I just feel that his run was not without flaws, flaws that undermined the mythos of the Black Panther up and to that point in my eyes. Among them, super-advanced Wakanda.
[QUOTE]Figuring out the fact that Hickman had to reduce T'Challa to a bumbling idiot devoid of all tactical awareness to facilitate aspects of the story he chose to tell via New Avengers wasn't that hard to understand once the facade of the first few issues passed and the [B]lying/crying King of the Dead[/B] was fully revealed.[/QUOTE] Don't disagree, just wanted to point to you as someone who remained a fan (whoever annoyed) regardless of the progress of the character. Which was my point, in response to what was seemingly implied.
[QUOTE]Much empty capital is made out of the supposed "glaring problems" with Hudlin's handling of the BP Mythos but strangely enough none said "problems" prevented his run from outselling those of writers who were supposedly much "better" at writing T'Challa than Reginald Hudlin.[/QUOTE] Twilight sold well. Fifty Shades of Grey sold well. Hudlin did some things very well. I'm not saying the man was Vince Russo booking WCW 2000. I'm just saying he didn't hit it out of the park and reinvent the wheel like I've felt some people treat him in response to criticism.
[QUOTE]Hickman did more damage to T'Challa than even Maberry managed to do via Doomwar as far as I'm concerned and I'll be exceedingly pleased when his involvement with T'Challa and Wakanda ends once Secret Wars comes to a close.[/QUOTE] No disagreements there.
[QUOTE]The bus hasn't been created that I can be thrown under my friend.[/QUOTE] Wouldn't dream of it, bro.
[QUOTE]I personally see no need to engage with non-fans who've made it abundantly clear that even when T'Challa is portrayed as a doormat, he's still an over powered Gary Stu in their eyes. As far as I remember, most BP enthusiasts who posted regularly in the BP Appreciation threads (pre-CBR reboot) were usually quite welcoming to all comers so it's not as if anyone was on that insular tip in the first place.[/QUOTE] Eh, I just don't see the need to engage in vitriol. I'm a dreamer in that sense.
[quote]
Besides, the very comicbooks themselves have shown us just how "beneficial" T'Challa's openess has been to the very Wakandans he's supposed to be protecting. T'Challa offers succour to the Avengers during AvX and gets Wakanda flooded for his troubles. He does the same thing by inviting the Illuminati onto Wakandan soil behind his sisters back and Wakanda gets destroyed once again. I don't see why I'd want to emulate the actions of such a lame character.[/QUOTE]
If he's so lame, then why are you still a fan. ;)
-
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1591178]Figuring out the fact that Hickman had to reduce T'Challa to a bumbling idiot devoid of all tactical awareness to facilitate aspects of the story he chose to tell via New Avengers wasn't that hard to understand once the facade of the first few issues passed and the [B]lying/crying King of the Dead[/B] was fully revealed.
Much empty capital is made out of the supposed "glaring problems" with Hudlin's handling of the BP Mythos but strangely enough none said "problems" prevented his run from outselling those of writers who were supposedly much "better" at writing T'Challa than Reginald Hudlin.
Hickman did more damage to T'Challa than even Maberry managed to do via Doomwar as far as I'm concerned and I'll be exceedingly pleased when his involvement with T'Challa and Wakanda ends once Secret Wars comes to a close.[/QUOTE]
With due respect, you seem to act as though one must first write a thesis on why Hickman sucks before one gets to Hudlin. I don't recall there ever being a rule that to criticize/critique one writer of a character, you must do the same to all.
-
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1591192]BP beat Iron Man with Windex.........mic drop. I see what you are saying but in the average story we dont list all the accomplishments a character has done.
We tale characters as their presented. TChalla is consistently presented as having only a few as his peers.
Of course than one of the main problems I had with the Liss run.[/QUOTE]
On the average story no, but it is part of their character and in this information age, an essential part. Doubly so when T'Challa has some many peers, with just as many inventions, 90% of which have been forgotten.
T'Challa needs an accomplishment of merit that lasts. Stark carries his around every where he goes. Reed can invent anything the plot requires. Pym has his particles.
Without Wakanda, what does T'Challa have?
(and don't say shadow physics, they've been forgotten already)
-
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1591193]He is the best of the best in a meritocracy.Thats pretty impressive.[/QUOTE]
You mean like Arkon? ;)
Again, plenty of characters get introed as best of the best (or worst of the worst). It's a crutch these days.
Show, don't tell. Wakanda was Panther's show.
-
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1591146]I dont think Wakanda being an technologically advanced society before TChalla hurt a the character. Ni more than the U.S. not being a technologically advanced society hurts Tony Stark and Reed Richards.[/QUOTE]
Agreed 100%.
-
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1591193]He is the best of the best in a meritocracy.Thats pretty impressive.[/QUOTE]
No monarchy is entirely a meritocracy because the idea of someone inheriting power and being superior to other men just because who his father was is the least meritocratic idea of all time. And not only that, he actually happens to be the King.
[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;1591198]With due respect, you seem to act as though one must first write a thesis on why Hickman sucks before one gets to Hudlin. I don't recall there ever being a rule that to criticize/critique one writer of a character, you must do the same to all.[/QUOTE]
Never mind that. The idea that Hickman sucks as a BP writer is pretty simple-[I] T'challa wasn't portrayed as the noblest, greatest, most badass, invincible and perfect hero of all time that is better than everyone combined and can kick everyone's ass? FAIL![/I] Apparently a story in which T'challa survives the end of everything that ever existed by his own ingenuity and happens to be at the moment THE most powerful being in the universe means he's a chump, because a true T'challa writer would have had him solving the problem before breakfast all by himself.