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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3675786][B]Right, someone comes to your Land, offends you, and as such try to kick them out, you derserve whatever is coming to you because how dare you get offended by what they we're doing right? Coates paints the early Wakandans as Pilgrims who took the land from the denizens and forced them out[/B][/QUOTE]
If they attack you then yes you deserve what you get. If the Originator attempted peaceful negotiation, I'd be more sympathetic. But they attacked the human, and the humans in turn have every right to do what they need to in order to defend themselves. Including imprisoning or driving off or even kill those attacking them.
If the Originator don't want to be imprisoned or driven off, then don't try attacking them, because that's what will happen if you lose the fight you started.
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Seeing the whole space prisoner thing reminds me of The premise for the Black Bolt series.
Hell space seems to be a common theme given Strange seems to be going too. Maybe they'll end up in the same prison planet.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3675797][IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/JvWfbtDGgva7u/giphy.gif[/IMG]
Thanks, but I'm really not that good a writer.[/QUOTE]
You're way to modest my dear friend and brother from another mother. :cool:
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[QUOTE=MadFacedKid;3675877]Seeing the whole space prisoner thing reminds me of The premise for the Black Bolt series.
Hell space seems to be a common theme given Strange seems to be going too. Maybe they'll end up in the same prison planet.[/QUOTE]
If it is half as good as the BB solo, i'd poop myself in excitement.
Space is a blank slate. You aren't beholden to as much continuity and can do whatever you want really
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3675897]If it is half as good as the BB solo, i'd poop myself in excitement.
Space is a blank slate. You aren't beholden to as much continuity and can do whatever you want really[/QUOTE]
I'm not opposed to the idea of a Panther arc in space it's something different and I'm hopefully expecting alot of badass moments from the idea of trying to Cage the King of Wakanda
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Strange Panther for the win!
[url]https://youtu.be/M-is0C6u5HA[/url]
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"Under Coates pen, Wakanda was singlehandedly turned into a lawless cesspit replete with Boko Haram themed terrorism, gender inequality and a formerly intelligent Monarch inexplicably comfortable with sitting down to discuss "policy" with foreign despots and their ancilliary staff."
I get that y'all hate coates because essentially he humanizes wakandans in a way that is degrading and ignores history. I disagree but that's been harped on I think y'all are delusional really but yeah. The way this was worded made me wonder something though, and I haven't seen it discussed, is there such a thing as an intelligent monarchy? Was T'challa right to embrace any change impacting his governing?
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3675426]Bro, I have mad love and respect for you but here's the thing.
I will never endorse or "appreciate" any of the errant nonsense Coates has introduced into the BP Mythos.
The fact that his sole purpose for initiating all of these distortions was to turn Wakandans into Storm's personal acolytes is nothing short of disgraceful but hey, as long as you're happy with the elevation if your favored character within another characters solo book it's all good huh?
Under Coates pen, Wakanda was singlehandedly turned into a lawless cesspit replete with Boko Haram themed terrorism, gender inequality and a formerly intelligent Monarch ineplicably comfortable with sitting down to discuss "policy" with foreign despots and their ancilliary staff.
This writer wilfully chose to ignore where Jonathan Hickman left T'Challa and Wakanda at the close of Secret Wars II wherein Wakanda was on the cusp of leading the way to the stars.
The concept of wholesale dysfunction, misogyny/misandry, rape, hitherto unseen gender conflict and the wholly manufactured absence of Bast (to make way for Coates introduction of humans ascending to "godhood" Bs.) was much palatable to a writer hell bent on using the BP solo as a convenient platform to possibly secure a writing gig on an X-book.
Sorry but I can't roll with Coates self serving agenda especially when it flies in the face of established BP lore and previously published canon.
I thank Bast for the fact that the BP movie at least features a Wakanda independent of this writers blight.[/QUOTE]
I appreciate that my brotha from another mother. I cherish and respect the energy you bring to this forum. Don't take this the wrong way but you are bae. The way you express yourself is intoxicating. I get strong "Reggie from Dear White People" vibes. Lolololol real talk, tho. It's a few of y'all in here and I dig it. I understand what you mean and how you feel more than you know. I get it. I've understood for months now. I will give you the rape camps. I'm not touching that one. I'll even give you the point about him dismissing where Hickman left him and Wakanda. I haven't read Hickmans work so I need to catch up. But I have to disagree with the idea that Coates wholly dismissed all canon. There are some fundamental plot points to his s2 that were direct references to an issue of the Priest run that everyone here loves so much. It's real. I even see a little irony in the idea that the movie was devoid of his influence. It's funny because I remember someone mentioning that the movie basically followed Coates' formula of having his supporting cast outshine him. I think Pulp Fiction said it, considering her made that thread. But there was so much truth to the words. Coates literally forced the idea of T'Challa realizing that a man is the company that he keeps. His whole world was out of balance because his circle was out of BALANCE. Stay with me here... narratively speaking, T'Challa went on a crusade to better the man he is by fortifying his foundation and tightening his circle. Everything was going to shit because his circle was out of balance. Once the proper circumstances presented themselves he sprang a trap to bring the proper elements into play. Storm wasn't wrong when she calls him a manipulative individual. It's literally spelled out for us. I could start a list. Just the realization that his world doesn't start to come together until he gets Storm back and she's crowned the "Hadari Yao, the Goddess who preserves the BALANCE of all Natural things." Ironic?
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3675433]But some people want to act all extra using vacuously vapid and baseless arguments to support their opinions.[/QUOTE]
I don't think my claims are baseless. I just think it's ironic that Coates' s2 is quite literally a combination of the movies portrayam of Wakanda and how everything revolves around T'Challa himself and Priest's Black Panther #26. The similarities are there. And when I really think about its kinda scary how on the nose the comparison is.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3675448][COLOR="#0000CD"]Definitely agree. Coates hasn't done anything to elevate [B][U][I]T'Challa[/I][/U][/B] and this new space empire is just another shot at Wakandan society by him.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
I completely and respectfully disagree. I think his most defining trait is his intelligence. I think his run will be defined most by T'Challa's sense of self to reflect on the man he is and how that compares and contrasts with the man he wants to be. There is so much truth in the thought about society not rewarding introspection in the black man.
[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3675558]Agreed, but on the bright side at least the victims are fiction races with no metaphor beyond 'kinda like the Indians'.
I doubt future writers will build upon it, and it'll be forgotten like T'Challa's telepathy.[/QUOTE]
I think future writers would be kinda be pussy-footing around, but I would understand the impulse of running away from a touchy subject.
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3675562]Wakanda did tge world a service to drive off those savages, who didn't worship the same gods, and had weird customs. They are lucky the wakandas gave them any land at all. Assimilate or die.
If wakanda was smart, they would have used these less evolved, animal like creatures as slave labor instead. They dont have the mental capabilities for more.
.....
Even T'challa on panel is like "yoooo this is kind of messed up"
Best case scenario, is that T'challa fixes the Wakanda empire and gives it to the alien dudes. Then they are forever forgotten from canon again lol
Oh and I am still waiting for the twist that Mother is a bad guy! I'll hold on to it until it happens!
Evan's is my dude![/QUOTE]
Lol who said there weren't other species that assimilated? Priest's implied that there were. Coates tells us that the were more than one race that predated prehistoric Wakandan man. The ones that that started attacking and imprisoning Wakandan citizens were ushered to another realm.
[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;3675569]I mentioned Black Panther #26 around the time the Originators reveal came out. I honestly don't think many people had read the issue yet because most people didn't really comment on it, but that was the first thing I thought of when I read the issue.[/QUOTE]
I apologize for missing it then. You are totally correct. I was reading thru my hardback trade copy of World's Apart recently and it comes with Claremont's original meeting of the two. It also comes with Priest's Black Panther #26. It was so crazy when I came across the one page with the Lumerian leader. It dawned on me that Coates has been playing up all of their history together going all the way back to Priest. This story is months second time that he with the help of Storm has had to deal with the another species other human that's been confirmed to be a native to Wakandan lands. It's so obvious what Coates is riffing off. It's so funny that I even noticed that he followed Priest's example of their deep, intellectual conversations. T'Challa realized the man he wanted to be and that man has Storm by his side. After he realized that he manipulated a situation to get her back in his circle. He didn't want to be like Magneto and he forced Storm into a series of circumstances that would bring her back to his side. (This happened with the Dora Milaje too) When I honestly think about all he's done to T'Challa and how Priest heavy s2 really is despite people not actually realizing it, I wanna scream. Lol it's so damn scary. Like, seriously. Quite literally he followed Priest's BP #26 So much N'Kano was there, another race native to Wakandan lands was there, his love for Storm was there, their deep conversations were there, he gave Storm an upgrade just like Priest did and he had Storm helping to save Wakandan citizens and lands.
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3675578]I honestly can't think of a positive defining trait of Coates Panther. Like something you think back and go, "Coates Panther is XYZ." Like Priest's was plans upon plans, kingly, ect. Hudlin's was very brash and confident, "in your face."
Coates is... good at using his people lol?[/QUOTE]
That's exactly the trait I'd say. T'Challa of s2 is heavily reminiscent of the movie version. It's only where T'Chadwick was just starting out and feeling the crown out for himself, Coates' BP s2 has the quite confidence of a man that knows what he wants. And it shows a man that's willing to do whatever it takes to carry his plans out. The swagger is there and I feel it. I wish others could feel it too. He's very much the man in control even when it seems he isn't.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3675590]The resurrection chamber?
I don't see how that applies, as the Originators aren't treated as alien, and demonstrate no technological ability, in the flashbacks or the arc itself[/QUOTE]
I see a flashback of Humans learning the way of the land from beings that came before them. I also see these humans learning and adapting it to better suit themselves. They were successful too. It could be interpreted that they actually learned the ways of war from the originators. The originators taught the humans what they knew and in the end they taught them too well. The humans then adapted it to work better for them. But it's never been outright stated just how many races predated prehistoric Wakandan man. We just know that Priest made it a thing. Coates took that nugget and ran with it.
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3675608]You mean the one page talk from the Lemurian dude talks about being there well before any human could stand upright? Or am I forgetting something more substantial?
----------------------------------------
I honestly don't think the argument is, "Wakandan's were the first people here and have always been here!" The disagreement is that that the reveal that Wakadanda Pilgrim/Native American'd the native species and the fact some (2?) people are pretending the analogy isn't valid just because this species was somehow "unevolved."
Coates even uses the word pilgrims lol. Has a trail of tears and everything lol.[/QUOTE]
Excuse me, but Priest has the Lumarian leader, Lord Ghuar establish that the Lumarians kept the peace between humans and the "others." This is a thing. Yes. The very story you're thinking of. The humans of that age would have been pilgrims. They came to prominence while living amongst species that were thriving. But somehow Wakandans came to be the dominant species of the region. And humans came to colonize the world starting with the African continent.
[QUOTE=Cville;3675617]And the Lumarians were driven under water by the second host of celestials. I assume the resurrection was around that time.[/QUOTE]
How does that change anything? The issue clearly states that the Lumarians were the peacekeepers. Whose to say that once the Lumarians disappeared, that caused an interspecies battle for dominance?
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[QUOTE=RDMXV;3675929]"Under Coates pen, Wakanda was singlehandedly turned into a lawless cesspit replete with Boko Haram themed terrorism, gender inequality and a formerly intelligent Monarch inexplicably comfortable with sitting down to discuss "policy" with foreign despots and their ancilliary staff."
I get that y'all hate coates because essentially he humanizes wakandans in a way that is degrading and ignores history. I disagree but that's been harped on I think y'all are delusional really but yeah. The way this was worded made me wonder something though, and I haven't seen it discussed, is there such a thing as an intelligent monarchy? Was T'challa right to embrace any change impacting his governing?[/QUOTE]
Your question is also funny because the scene where T'Challa finds out the truth about prehistoric Wakandan man and their origins, it directly mirrors his T'Chadwick's reaction to his father when he realized what he did to his brother and nephew. That's another parallel that People overlook and it's so ironic.
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[QUOTE=RDMXV;3675929]"Under Coates pen, Wakanda was singlehandedly turned into a lawless cesspit replete with Boko Haram themed terrorism, gender inequality and a formerly intelligent Monarch inexplicably comfortable with sitting down to discuss "policy" with foreign despots and their ancilliary staff."
I get that y'all hate coates because essentially he humanizes wakandans in a way that is degrading and ignores history. I disagree but that's been harped on I think y'all are delusional really but yeah. The way this was worded made me wonder something though, and I haven't seen it discussed, is there such a thing as an intelligent monarchy? Was T'challa right to embrace any change impacting his governing?[/QUOTE]
You can literally post scans of every single thing in that first sentence. and that isn't even an exaggeration.
And there are intelligent monarchies in fiction. Fiction is the key word. In a MU full of weird shit, having one monarch having complete control that can mobilize and do things at an instance might not be a bad idea.
There is also the idea that Wakandan rulers are blessed and given approval by a God(s)
In reality, you eventually run into a family member that is completely inept at ruling and there is nothing the population can do about it. Of course, that happens in other types of government as well.
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3675939]Your question is also funny because the scene where T'Challa finds out the truth about prehistoric Wakandan man and their origins, it directly mirrors his T'Chadwick's reaction to his father when he realized what he did to his brother and nephew. That's another parallel that People overlook and it's so ironic.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. And he should try to make it right. Move Wakanda to Titan or something and release the spell and let the Originators have their land back.
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3675933]. But somehow Wakandans came to be the dominant species of the region. And humans came to colonize the world starting with the African continent.
[/QUOTE]
"but somehow"
You mean driving them off in chains and sending them to another dimension?
I prefer stuff on panel, not subjective fanfic.
[QUOTE]T'Challa of s2 is heavily reminiscent of the movie version.[/QUOTE]
No, T'challa solved his issues in the movie (first klaue, then killmonger) himself. He wasn't on his knees praying that Okoye kill Killmonger for him. He did the dirty work.
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[QUOTE=MadFacedKid;3675877]Seeing the whole space prisoner thing reminds me of The premise for the Black Bolt series.
Hell space seems to be a common theme given Strange seems to be going too. Maybe they'll end up in the same prison planet.[/QUOTE]
Maybe they are trying for a male version of Bitch Planet.
Wonder will that means Kelly Sue DeConnick comes back to write it and then fix Carol Danvers.
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[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;3675950]Maybe they are trying for a male version of Bitch Planet.
Wonder will that means Kelly Sue DeConnick comes back to write it and then fix Carol Danvers.[/QUOTE]
No idea what Bitch Planet is ha. The Black Panther arc only going to have male prisoners? I assumed they were all Wakandans. So I'd assume the theme twist would be Black nationality. Be a cool way to go.given how much emphasis the movie went with black culture.
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[QUOTE=RDMXV;3675929]"Under Coates pen, Wakanda was singlehandedly turned into a lawless cesspit replete with Boko Haram themed terrorism, gender inequality and a formerly intelligent Monarch inexplicably comfortable with sitting down to discuss "policy" with foreign despots and their ancilliary staff."
I get that y'all hate coates because essentially he humanizes wakandans in a way that is degrading and ignores history. I disagree but that's been harped on I think y'all are delusional really but yeah. The way this was worded made me wonder something though, and I haven't seen it discussed, is there such a thing as an intelligent monarchy? Was T'challa right to embrace any change impacting his governing?[/QUOTE]
[B]Funny when folks throw out "he is humanizing them" Wakanda has been humanized through Priest and Hudlin. You can expand on the fleshing out of Wakanda without using racial stereotypes. Here's the thing, if Coates was a white writer the internet would of exploded with him being a racists. However because he is Black it's regarded as World building and complex.. when in actuality he is simply playing on stereotypes blacks have been wanting to get away from since forever[/B]
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3675947]"but somehow"
You mean driving them off in chains and sending them to another dimension?
I prefer stuff on panel, not subjective fanfic.
No, T'challa solved his issues in the movie (first klaue, then killmonger) himself. He wasn't on his knees praying that Okoye kill Killmonger for him. He did the dirty work.[/QUOTE]
Priest implied it on panel. The Lumarians were the peacekeepers between the races. The idea the the Lumarians had a society well before Wakandans could walk upright is a pretty heavy implication.
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3675939]Your question is also funny because the scene where T'Challa finds out the truth about prehistoric Wakandan man and their origins, it directly mirrors his T'Chadwick's reaction to his father when he realized what he did to his brother and nephew. That's another parallel that People overlook and it's so ironic.[/QUOTE]
[B] T'chadwick calls out hos father and anscestors about how they were wrong and fixes their mistake. Coates throws out this plot, and just like the whole meeting with despots in S1, uses it as a way to throw shade at Wakanda and then moves on, leaving the thread unresolved. Wakanda took their land and keeps them banished I'm the end while praying to their new goddess Storm..
Utter garbage[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3675983][B]Funny when folks throw out "he is humanizing them" Wakanda has been humanized through Priest and Hudlin. You can expand on the fleshing out of Wakanda without using racial stereotypes. Here's the thing, if Coates was a white writer the internet would of exploded with him being a racists. However because he is Black it's regarded as World building and complex.. when in actuality he is simply playing on stereotypes blacks have been wanting to get away from since forever[/B][/QUOTE]
Rape camps is an egregious oversight he should have really thought about placing this things outside of Wakanda. But even in the breaking up of rape camps, that's an homage to Hudlin's Panther and how T'Challa met up with Storm to poo the question. What are the other racial stereotypes that he's introduced? I'm lumping the whole misogynoir and rape camps all together.
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3675988]Priest implied it on panel. The Lumarians were the peacekeepers between the races. The idea the the Lumarians had a society well before Wakandans could walk upright is a pretty heavy implication.[/QUOTE]
[B]and if you paid attention to BoGs brilliant history lesson, you would know what happened to Lemurians to show how Priest's Wakanda didn't colonize and drive out the denizens unlike Coates version[/B]
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3675941]You can literally post scans of every single thing in that first sentence. and that isn't even an exaggeration.
And there are intelligent monarchies in fiction. Fiction is the key word. In a MU full of weird shit, having one monarch having complete control that can mobilize and do things at an instance might not be a bad idea.
There is also the idea that Wakandan rulers are blessed and given approval by a God(s)
In reality, you eventually run into a family member that is completely inept at ruling and there is nothing the population can do about it. Of course, that happens in other types of government as well.[/QUOTE]
Wakanda was invaded three times consecutively and it had ripple effects that made bad humans do bad things that typically happen under similar situations. That doesn't bother me because I expect bad humans to be in comics so that heroes shine (and I enjoyed the panel showing them flying out windows). Civil unrest after 3 invasions leading to dissatisfaction, that is then taken advantage of by villains makes sense to me. Coates first season's pace and action wasnt flawless but the things y'all treat as gross failures simply don't resonate with me.
Your point about it being fiction is a solid one. The expectation of what this medium is supposed to be seems like the center of alot of issues here. Coates has written BP so far as "what if this book was bound by the rules of our reality" vs "I create the rules of reality in this book".
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3676001]Rape camps is an egregious oversight he should have really thought about placing this things outside of Wakanda. But even in the breaking up of rape camps, that's an homage to Hudlin's Panther and how T'Challa met up with Storm to poo the question. What are the other racial stereotypes that he's introduced? I'm lumping the whole misogynoir and rape camps all together.[/QUOTE]
[B] Hudlin didn't infest hos Wakanda with rape camps. He went out of his way to show a positive depiction of Wakanda, Black excellence, and Black unity, to say this is a homage to Hudlin is an insult to him.
I'm not going to go over then all over again when it's been stated multiple times within the last couple pages already.[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3676000][B] T'chadwick calls out hos father and anscestors about how they were wrong and fixes their mistake. Coates throws out this plot, and just like the whole meeting with despots in S1, uses it as a way to throw shade at Wakanda and then moves on, leaving the thread unresolved. Wakanda took their land and keeps them banished I'm the end while praying to their new goddess Storm..
Utter garbage[/B][/QUOTE]
How can actual Africans colonize African land? And why would the humans give up land that they have just as much right to? The Wakandans are not trespassers. Humans displaced them the same way they displace any other species. It's pretty much our shared history. But that doesn't change that the Lumarians were willing to keep the peace with this new species that just learned how to walk upright on this very land. I don't understand this sense that Africans should feel guilty for being born intelligent and resourceful. Some of the originators were hostile and some were not. Was T'Challa supposed to banish them or slaughter them outright? I don't see how pickup and run is even an option when they have just as much right as anyone.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3676016][B] Hudlin didn't infest hos Wakanda with rape camps. He went out of his way to show a positive depiction of Wakanda, Black excellence, and Black unity, to say this is a homage to Hudlin is an insult to him.
I'm not going to go over then all over again when it's been stated multiple times within the last couple pages already.[/B][/QUOTE]
The points you brought up about black excellence and Black unity is literally on display with the idea of bringing in so many different black heroes to rise up in defense of Wakanda.
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3676027]The points you brought up about black excellence and Black unity is literally on display with the idea of bringing in so many different black heroes to rise up in defense of Wakanda.[/QUOTE]
I was just re-reading Hudlin because my power was out. Lol. From issue 8 to 18 he did black hero unity with excellence.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3675983][B]Funny when folks throw out "he is humanizing them" Wakanda has been humanized through Priest and Hudlin. You can expand on the fleshing out of Wakanda without using racial stereotypes. Here's the thing, if Coates was a white writer the internet would of exploded with him being a racists. However because he is Black it's regarded as World building and complex.. when in actuality he is simply playing on stereotypes blacks have been wanting to get away from since forever[/B][/QUOTE]
Anything I say about this current run is not a comparison to the past.
"He is simply playing on stereotypes blacks have been wanting to get away from since forever"
If I boil this down you're basically on some respectability politics bs. The ONLY people who associate rape with black people instead of just terrible people are racists and what they think under any circumstance is inconsequential to how I consume anything. Especially a comic book.
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3675939]Your question is also funny because the scene where T'Challa finds out the truth about prehistoric Wakandan man and their origins, it directly mirrors his T'Chadwick's reaction to his father when he realized what he did to his brother and nephew. That's another parallel that People overlook and it's so ironic.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking about how the movie had easily the most advanced people on earth but basically if you could wrestle the best you were king because of tradition. LOL like I loved T'challa getting thrown off the waterfall but that may be the worse way to handle the succession of power ever.
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[QUOTE=Cville;3676035]I was just re-reading Hudlin because my power was out. Lol. From issue 8 to 18 he did black hero unity with excellence.[/QUOTE]
My point being there are heavy nods to Priest, Hudlin, McDuffie and Coogler's movie version. The nods to T'Challa and Storm's shared history is heavily reinforced. And it's riffing off of canon from what many here consider to be Black Panther's two most iconic eras under Priest and Hudlin. And it's funny because both those runs introduce Storm and both those writers gave Storm a boost in power on paper. Priest gave her power over earthquakes and Hudlin established her as a potential omega level mutant.
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3676059]My point being there are heavy nods to Priest, Hudlin, McDuffie and Coogler's movie version. The nods to T'Challa and Storm's shared history is heavily reinforced. And it's riffing off of canon from what many here consider to be Black Panther's two most iconic eras under Priest and Hudlin. And it's funny because both those runs introduce Storm and both those writers gave Storm a boost in power on paper. Priest gave her power over earthquakes and Hudlin established her as a potential omega level mutant.[/QUOTE]
So when said black unity, you only meant Storm? Lol.I
I'm talking BP, Storm, Monica, Cage, Blade, Falcon, Isaiah Bradley, and Dr.Voodoo. Even Goliath got to shake Bradley's hand before he got a whole in his chest. Still waiting on his resurrection. Lol
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[QUOTE=MadFacedKid;3675959]No idea what Bitch Planet is ha. The Black Panther arc only going to have male prisoners? I assumed they were all Wakandans. So I'd assume the theme twist would be Black nationality. Be a cool way to go.given how much emphasis the movie went with black culture.[/QUOTE]
The women are probably in space treehouses
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[QUOTE=Cville;3676067]So when said black unity, you only meant Storm? Lol.I
I'm talking BP, Storm, Monica, Cage, Blade, Falcon, Isaiah Bradley, and Dr.Voodoo. Even Goliath got to shake Bradley's hand before he got a whole in his chest. Still waiting on his resurrection. Lol[/QUOTE]
Lol no. The fact that Storm is heavily influenced in all three of the stories in question is a main point but it's not the only one. The idea is that Coates brought in many black heroes to defend Wakanda at BP's suggestion. That's another plot point that is pulled from Hudlin's work. I keep reading that Coates has ignore continuity, but the statement should be that he ignores the continuity that many here disagree with. None of his most controversial additions to the mythos are wholly original to him. Of course I'm excluding misogynoir and rape camps.
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3676019]How can actual Africans colonize African land? And why would the humans give up land that they have just as much right to? The Wakandans are not trespassers. Humans displaced them the same way they displace any other species. It's pretty much our shared history. But that doesn't change that the Lumarians were willing to keep the peace with this new species that just learned how to walk upright on this very land. I don't understand this sense that Africans should feel guilty for being born intelligent and resourceful. Some of the originators were hostile and some were not. Was T'Challa supposed to banish them or slaughter them outright? I don't see how pickup and run is even an option when they have just as much right as anyone.[/QUOTE]
[B] Re-read the scans I posted on the other page. The Wakandans came to their land and offended them then drove them out. This anology reeks of colonization and painting Wakandans in a bad light. Why do you think Tchalla reacts the way he does? And mother's response to his reaction? "history is written by the victor" tcha was disgusted by the actual history. Now had Coates switched it to where the originators came to Wakanda and tried to take over due to jealousy, you would have a point and in fact that would of made for better plot point. But Coates version makes Wakanda look bad through and through for taking land that belonged to the denizens, and then driving them to the banished realm.. [/B]
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[QUOTE=RDMXV;3676041]Anything I say about this current run is not a comparison to the past.
"He is simply playing on stereotypes blacks have been wanting to get away from since forever"
If I boil this down you're basically on some respectability politics bs. The ONLY people who associate rape with black people instead of just terrible people are racists and what they think under any circumstance is inconsequential to how I consume anything. Especially a comic book.[/QUOTE]
[B]Rape isn't the only thing he associated. What also drove the rape into stereotypical territory even further way to throw up these giant ass rape treehouses that T'Challa somehow didn't see, it didn't say rape was only associated with Black people Either so miss me with that noise.[/B]
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3676059]My point being there are heavy nods to Priest, Hudlin, McDuffie and Coogler's movie version. The nods to T'Challa and Storm's shared history is heavily reinforced. And it's riffing off of canon from what many here consider to be Black Panther's two most iconic eras under Priest and Hudlin. And it's funny because both those runs introduce Storm and both those writers gave Storm a boost in power on paper. Priest gave her power over earthquakes and Hudlin established her as a potential omega level mutant.[/QUOTE]
[B] Giving her a little boost is vastly different from retconning a entire franchises divinity system in order to turn storm into the Savior of the season and making all the characters of said franchise bow and pray to her.. bad Storm fanfic running full throttle here[/B]
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Id love to see all these pages of priest talkong about pre wakanda africa. I really hope we arent taking what i remember as one sentence and making it... this lol.
[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3676001]Rape camps is an egregious oversight he should have really thought about placing this things outside of Wakanda. But even in the breaking up of rape camps, that's an homage to Hudlin's Panther and how T'Challa met up with Storm to poo the question. What are the other racial stereotypes that he's introduced? I'm lumping the whole misogynoir and rape camps all together.[/QUOTE]
Tchalla did not break up one rape camp.
Not. One. Never ever brought up despite Ramondas direct knowledge of it
[QUOTE=RDMXV;3676009]Wakanda was invaded three times consecutively and it had ripple effects that made bad humans do bad things that typically happen under similar situations. That doesn't bother me because I expect bad humans to be in comics so that heroes shine (and I enjoyed the panel showing them flying out windows). Civil unrest after 3 invasions leading to dissatisfaction, that is then taken advantage of by villains makes sense to me. Coates first season's pace and action wasnt flawless but the things y'all treat as gross failures simply don't resonate with me.
Your point about it being fiction is a solid one. The expectation of what this medium is supposed to be seems like the center of alot of issues here. Coates has written BP so far as "what if this book was bound by the rules of our reality" vs "I create the rules of reality in this book".[/QUOTE]
The gross failure is showing tchallas indifference.
The hero of the story did nothing heroic about. And his sister gatekeepered it. "Who cares if yall got raped, i died for wakanda"
[QUOTE=RDMXV;3676055]I was thinking about how the movie had easily the most advanced people on earth but basically if you could wrestle the best you were king because of tradition. LOL like I loved T'challa getting thrown off the waterfall but that may be the worse way to handle the succession of power ever.[/QUOTE]
Most advanced technology. Not people. They were just as flawed as everyone else
[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3676092]Lol no. The fact that Storm is heavily influenced in all three of the stories in question is a main point but it's not the only one. The idea is that Coates brought in many black heroes to defend Wakanda at BP's suggestion. That's another plot point that is pulled from Hudlin's work. I keep reading that Coates has ignore continuity, but the statement should be that he ignores the continuity that many here disagree with. None of his most controversial additions to the mythos are wholly original to him. Of course I'm excluding misogynoir and rape camps.[/QUOTE]
Name one time hudlin tchalla INVITED other black heroes to defend wakanda? Issue number or scan works. If you give me there story ill hunt it down.
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3675931]I completely and respectfully disagree. I think his most defining trait is his intelligence. I think his run will be defined most by T'Challa's sense of self to reflect on the man he is and how that compares and contrasts with the man he wants to be. There is so much truth in the thought about society not rewarding introspection in the black man. [/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]Hey BB, how's it going?
Think about this for a moment. T'Challa's defining trait isn't his intelligence although it ranks very high. There are many intelligent, super-geniuses in the MU to the point they're inter-changeable. T'Challa's defining trait is his ability to process information and formulate multiple strategies based on how he processes that information. That is the "10 steps ahead of his friends and enemies" T'challa that we've become accustomed to for the past decades.
T'Challa is a multi-tasker, able to juggle many complex strategies at once, who studies and prepares for many possible outcomes with his own protocols on how to deal with various threats.
None of this makes T'Challa unbeatable, however it's going to take an enemy just as good as moving the chess pieces as he is.
Coates T'Challa has been reactionary to everything that has been happening to him and Wakanda and has been one-step, sometimes two-steps behind his enemies. His decision making has been suspect such as when he sought the advice of dictators on how to deal with the rebellion in Wakanda. Creating the force push technology but not understand how to use it properly.
The comments made by characters in the series "bred by men", "no one man" and portraying Wakanda as misogynistic are just utterly ridiculous and flies in the face of Wakandan history.
So I wouldn't say that T'Challa has been elevated in anyway by Coates during his run.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3676115]Id love to see all these pages of priest talkong about pre wakanda africa. I really hope we arent taking what i remember as one sentence and making it... this lol.
Tchalla did not break up one rape camp.
Not. One. Never ever brought up despite Ramondas direct knowledge of it
The gross failure is showing tchallas indifference.
The hero of the story did nothing heroic about. And his sister gatekeepered it. "Who cares if yall got raped, i died for wakanda"
Most advanced technology. Not people. They were just as flawed as everyone else
Name one time hudlin tchalla INVITED other black heroes to defend wakanda? Issue number or scan works. If you give me there story ill hunt it down.[/QUOTE]
Lol weren't you the same one that posted the scan of Zuri suggesting that T'Challa marry Photon? Or do I have you confused with another poster? Lol y'all make this too easy.
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3676175]Lol weren't you the same one that posted the scan of Zuri suggesting that T'Challa marry Photon? Or do I have you confused with another poster? Lol y'all make this too easy.[/QUOTE]
That story took place in Niganda. Tchalla asked Tony to solve the problem the American government started as they were sponsoring Killmomger taking over Niganda. They sent Monica. As a funny note, Tchalla got a good post civil war shot in on Tony. Lol.
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[QUOTE=BBeeryan;3676175]Lol weren't you the same one that posted the scan of Zuri suggesting that T'Challa marry Photon? Or do I have you confused with another poster? Lol y'all make this too easy.[/QUOTE]
If this is some sort of an ad hominem argument, does that mean you don't have any scans, issue numbers, story arc names or...??? Seriously, just give me a hint and I will track it down myself and post it whether I'm right or wrong.
If this is in reference to the Back to Africa story and that is your example... you are actually mistaken. T'challa did not send for Monica... Tony sent her before T'challa could say yes or no. And also, if anything, T'chalal called Stark for help and Stark is very melanin challenged.
Either way,
[QUOTE]
The idea is that Coates brought in many black heroes to defend Wakanda at BP's suggestion. That's another plot point that is pulled from Hudlin's work.[/QUOTE]
I still await those scans or stories of Hudlin assembling any black heroes whatsoever to protect Wakanda.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3676096][B] Re-read the scans I posted on the other page. The Wakandans came to their land and offended them then drove them out. This anology reeks of colonization and painting Wakandans in a bad light. Why do you think Tchalla reacts the way he does? And mother's response to his reaction? "history is written by the victor" tcha was disgusted by the actual history. Now had Coates switched it to where the originators came to Wakanda and tried to take over due to jealousy, you would have a point and in fact that would of made for better plot point. But Coates version makes Wakanda look bad through and through for taking land that belonged to the denizens, and then driving them to the banished realm.. [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't need to reread those scans. They don't help you disprove the point I'm making. Yes, Coates establishes that the human are pilgrims on lands that are already settled by other sentient creatures. Yeah, they had already culture and humans learned from them. But that doesn't disagree with the throwaway discussion that T'Challa and Lord Ghuar share in BP #26. Priest established that those Lumarians had a culture all their own since before prehistoric Wakandan man could walk upright. That is directly referenced with the line about another species thriving before man made his mark on the land. It's true. Just because it's a plot point that you don like doesn't make it something that Coates pulled out of thin air.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3676108][B] Giving her a little boost is vastly different from retconning a entire franchises divinity system in order to turn storm into the Savior of the season and making all the characters of said franchise bow and pray to her.. bad Storm fanfic running full throttle here[/B][/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter how you feel about whether the upgrade was small or not. My simple point is that there are in fact major plot points that were laid by previous Black Panther writers, the two most influential ones. And I keep reading people say that Coates is ignoring continuity. That is a lie. He's ignoring continuity that you disagree with. But there are clear elements laid by Coates that have been tackled by previous writers. The issues of rape camps in the pages of Black Panther isn't even something new to the mythos. The fact that there seems to be an attempt to gloss over these truths feels a lot like omission of facts. I don't do well with that.
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3676115]Id love to see all these pages of priest talkong about pre wakanda africa. I really hope we arent taking what i remember as one sentence and making it... this lol.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that exactly the line and conversation thats being discussed. It's being discussed because it's relevant to the discussion about the Originators and their place in Wakanda's mythos. It's ok if you want to ignore the connections, but understand why you lose points for not being objective.