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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732710]Pretty much. Sure, she "failed", but how can she adequately prepare for whats going on and be judged fairly when her own brother was hiding intel and lying behind her back? I wonder how many BP fans would tolerate that if it was her doing that to him.
T'Chaka and the Panthers disowning him made plenty of sense at the time. I wouldn't be surprised if they still did, even at the conclusion of Secret Wars. Who's to say that he would put Wakanda in harms way the way he did again? Especially when he doesn't even tell his own people what's going on?[/QUOTE]
Truthully T'Challa MIGHT put Wakanda in danger again if he needed to. I'm sure it's not something he necessarily takes lightly... but Wakanda IS a resource. If he needs to use it to save the world he'll do it and feel guitly about it later.
But really at this point who gives a damn if the previous BP's don't approve. He never needed their approval before and he certainly doesn't need it now.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1732756]
But really at this point who gives a damn if the previous BP's don't approve. He never needed their approval before and he certainly doesn't need it now.[/QUOTE]
That's the thing, T'Challa cares. He should, that's his history.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732711]Wakanda is an essential part of who T'Challa is: his heritage, is upbringing, his training, his knowledge, his culture. All in large part due to him being in Wakanda.
Take that away from him and he's a completely different character.[/QUOTE]
Sure it's an important part of the characters backstory. I'm just saying whether or not he's "worthy" of it is moot. It exists purely to give him a backstory. It gives him a cool job and something to protect. If the story were to ever decide that Wakanda felt they didn't need him (which is a distinct possibility down the line since T'Challa did do some questionable things), they'd be proven wrong.
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[Img]http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6n66lQFz21r9u466o1_1280.png[/img]
Can we please stop blaming tchalla for avx destruction now? Shuri, ON PANEL, is right there. Shuri the queen. Shuri the ruler. Obviously knows abd condones what is going on.
So unless i am forgetting the beginning of the next issue where shuri loses her shit and tells people to gtfo... if i am forgetting please post scan. Rather not go back and read that garbage event
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1732759]That's the thing, T'Challa cares. He should, that's his history.[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but the fact of the matter is they're dead.
He doesn't need their help and he doesn't need their approval. If they don't appreciate him after all he did, then that's more their probem than his. He did the job.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1732668]Hickman did just give him teleportation, a force field, glowing purple fists, possibly invisibility (not entirely sure that's what that was in the first fight with Swan) and energy blades. Combine that with the gear he already had (if previous writers bother bringing all of it back... we've already seen some of the Priest gear return under Ewing) and that's actually a fair amount of standard gear.[/QUOTE]
It borderlines on overkill. I like to keep it simple. BP has basically Predator armor and the occasional extra gadget he would need to stop a particular menace.
I say the same about Iron Man, who is currently walking in a Transformer:)
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1732728]I don't agree with you meta wise. It can mean, and should mean, much more than that. It is the environment of the character, the place that is the building blocks of who he is, in contrast and comparison.
That's like saying New York is just the place Spider-Man lives at. It's not, it's part of the emergence. Setting is important.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying setting isn't important... I'm saying the notion of T'Challa's worthiness to his setting is moot because the setting exists purely to enhance the character. Wakanda is there or the BP character, not the other way around.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1732766]It borderlines on overkill. I like to keep it simple. BP has basically Predator armor and the occasional extra gadget he would need to stop a particular menace.
I say the same about Iron Man, who is currently walking in a Transformer:)[/QUOTE]
Yeah, some of it probably doesn't need to be standard. I can do without the large glowing boxing glove claw things as far as standard tech goes.
If he has claws, he probably doesn't need knives too. One or the other but not both.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732747]I was referring more to a possible different scenario story wise, not the exact same one. But the new timeline may allow him to avoid those same mistakes.
With that said, from a readers perspective, if someone feels that T'Challa, as written in that story, isn't worthy of the title, that is a very valid opinion, I feel.[/QUOTE]
T'Challa made enough questionable choices for both readers and Wakandan to have issue with T'Challa. That's entirely fair.
That said, you're not going to get a more capable ruler. No one has his intelligence or his experience. Anyone they set on the throne apart from him will likely end up looking bad by comparsion in the story because ultimately that throne was created for the T'Challa character. Anyone sitting in it is just keeping it warm.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1732778]Yeah, some of it probably doesn't need to be standard. I can do without the large glowing boxing glove claw things as far as standard tech goes.
If he has claws, he probably doesn't need knives too. One or the other but not both.[/QUOTE]
Claws, weave suit, and spear of bashenga (upgraded so its not just a pointy atick) shoukd be his standard gear imo
Everything else is situational
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I don't like
She Thor
She Hulk
She Wolverive
She Spiderman
Or She Panther.
Shuri needs re-imaged and to be her own character away from the throne in some other capacity.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1732764][Img]http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6n66lQFz21r9u466o1_1280.png[/img]
Can we please stop blaming tchalla for avx destruction now? Shuri, ON PANEL, is right there. Shuri the queen. Shuri the ruler. Obviously knows abd condones what is going on.
So unless i am forgetting the beginning of the next issue where shuri loses her shit and tells people to gtfo... if i am forgetting please post scan. Rather not go back and read that garbage event[/QUOTE]
Yeah, if Shuri is ruler of Wakanda ultimately she has final responsibility for what they did in AvX.
I DO think it was very likely that Shuri agreed to help the Avengers at T'Challa's request. But Shuri is in change and if they agree to help the Avengers, that's consequences of that are ultimately on her. It's different from Infinity... Shuri knew was was going on and knowingly went along with it.
And as the scan shows, she's specically the one ordering that Transonic be captured. I do imagine any unhappy Wakandans might still blame that one on T'Challa since he's the one who has fostered the relationship with the Avengers over the years... but Shuri gets the lions share of the accountability for that one. That comes with the big chair.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1732743]This one is easy. The Illuminati are a bunch of geniuses... And then Black Bolt and Namor.
[B]She wouldn't immediately see what he brings to the table. Especially for a complex threat like the Incursions. He played no part in the solution process. Of course that would lead to questions as to why he's around. [/B]
Especially since like T'Challa, she'd definitely believe she had the guts to destroy other worlds. She aligns more with the previous Panthers, and "Wakanda > All" was the story mantra. And potentially she might have.
But that would also bring as much turmoil as Namor did, if not more.
Now, the answer in the end was "they should have told everyone, including Shuri, but everything would have still died". But the reasons for reservation was there. It ultimately was the wrong decision.[/QUOTE]
At the bold: I'm not too sure about that. On two occasions Shuri directly inquired about Namor to T'Challa while showing restraint. First time, rather than going directly to war and having every reason to do so, she asks T'Challa's advice on whether or not to take Namor's offer of peace.
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-itW7M928-Yg/UsgRzeZokcI/AAAAAAABdXM/tnCZUMHVmaw/s1600/-022+copy.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e6jjxin89r0/UsgRz4j4jmI/AAAAAAABdXY/97cdRjGK9pg/s1600/-023+copy.jpg[/IMG]
Ultimately, Shuri decides to go to war, but that's without knowing a thing about the incursions. I can almost guarantee that if T'Challa were to tell her right then and there about the incursions, Shuri would absolutely take that offer, if only because Wakanda faced a far bigger threat.
Recall that when the Dora Milaje told Shuri that Namor was residing in the Necropolis and that he and T'Challa have met many times there. Rather than immediately demanding where Namor was, or even being outwardly be angry towards him, she shows quite a good amount of restraint and asks him why is Namor here.
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9dC1EOUlVpA/UpgMb1mgH1I/AAAAAAAAxz0/pwRbmwF5NcI/s1600/-011+copy.jpg[/IMG]
As one can see, Shuri had a lot of respect for T'Challa and even trusted his judgement in crisis situations. More importantly, Shuri showed a surprising amount of patience in all this. She could've easily and rightfully gone to war without a meeting or consulting T'Challa. Instead she flat out asks him for his advice in front of Wakanda's generals, despite being the Queen.
When T'Challa was caught lying, she could've rightfully demanded T'Challa to bring Namor to her right then and there. She even could've demanded the Hatute Zeraze to detain him immediately for treason. Instead she simply asked T'Challa to explain why Namor was here and why he was meeting with him, almost purely out of respect for her brother and his judgement. And when T'Challa refuses to tell her why, all she did was ban him from the city. She could've done a lot worse and TRULY jeopardize the illuminati's mission.
My contention: if T'Challa was forthright with her about the incursions and how they are a far bigger threat than Namor and Atlantis, which was 100% true, as well as explain to her why he allowed Namor in the Necropolis, then Shuri, due to practical reasons (the incursions) and trusting T'Challa's judgement, would surely not have gone to war but even possibly (and begrudgingly) temporarily put her grievences to the side concerning Namor. As I mentioned, she doesn't even have to be in the meetings, as long as she was in the loop.
Shuri is obviously more traditional than T'Challa and may be more aligned to the previous panthers, but lets remember: she's not them. As the scans show, she much more patient than we give her credit for, especially when she didn't even have close to half of the intel needed to make a proper decision considering the situation.
Shuri trusted T'Challa. The real issue is that T'Challa did not reciprocate that trust.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1732778]Yeah, some of it probably doesn't need to be standard. I can do without the large glowing boxing glove claw things as far as standard tech goes.
If he has claws, he probably doesn't need knives too. One or the other but not both.[/QUOTE]
Range. He needs the knives as well. The movie will make the claws his "trademark weapon" but It would be nice if he could use the claws to form something he can throw at range.
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[url]http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/KingAvengerMarvel/news/?a=76196[/url]
Feats list for T'Challa, if anyone's interested.
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Sorry but Shuri SHOULD ask T'challa for advice and trust him because he's freaking T'challa and more capable. He doesn't need to do the same for her because he's T'challa. That's just how it is. She may even be qualified to rule Wakanda but she isn't moreso than him and she knows that.
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[QUOTE=Ekie;1732811]Range. He needs the knives as well. The movie will make the claws his "trademark weapon" but It would be nice if he could use the claws to form something he can throw at range.[/QUOTE]
Priest's claws could fire energy daggers, rather than being physical knives. Bring those back and he's good.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732806]At the bold: I'm not too sure about that. On two occasions Shuri directly inquired about Namor to T'Challa while showing restraint. First time, rather than going directly to war and having every reason to do so, she asks T'Challa's advice on whether or not to take Namor's offer of peace.
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-itW7M928-Yg/UsgRzeZokcI/AAAAAAABdXM/tnCZUMHVmaw/s1600/-022+copy.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e6jjxin89r0/UsgRz4j4jmI/AAAAAAABdXY/97cdRjGK9pg/s1600/-023+copy.jpg[/IMG]
Ultimately, Shuri decides to go to war, but that's without knowing a thing about the incursions. I can almost guarantee that if T'Challa were to tell her right then and there about the incursions, Shuri would absolutely take that offer, if only because Wakanda faced a far bigger threat.
Recall that when the Dora Milaje told Shuri that Namor was residing in the Necropolis and that he and T'Challa have met many times there. Rather than immediately demanding where Namor was, or even being outwardly be angry towards him, she shows quite a good amount of restraint and asks him why is Namor here.
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9dC1EOUlVpA/UpgMb1mgH1I/AAAAAAAAxz0/pwRbmwF5NcI/s1600/-011+copy.jpg[/IMG]
As one can see, Shuri had a lot of respect for T'Challa and even trusted his judgement crisis situations. More importantly, Shuri showed a surprising amount of patience in all this. She could've easily and rightfully gone to war without a meeting or consulting T'Challa. Instead she flat out asks him for his advice in front of Wakanda's generals, despite being the Queen.
When T'Challa was caught lying, she could've rightfully demanded T'Challa to bring Namor to her right then and there. She even could've demanded the Hatute Zeraze to detain him immediately for treason. Instead she simply asked T'Challa to explain why Namor was here and why he was meeting with him, almost purely out of respect for her brother and his judgement. And when T'Challa refuses to tell her why, all she did was ban him from the city. She could've done a lot worse and TRULY jeopardize the illuminati's mission.
My contention: if T'Challa was forthright with her about the incursions and how they are a far bigger threat than Namor and Atlantis, which was 100% true, as well as explain to her why he allowed Namor in the Necropolis, then Shuri, due to practical reasons (the incursions) and trusting T'Challa's judgement, would surely not have gone to war but even possibly (and begrudgingly) temporarily put her grievences to the side concerning Namor. As I mentioned, she doesn't even have to be in the meetings, as long as she was in the loop.
Shuri is obviously more traditional than T'Challa and may be more aligned to the previous panthers, but lets remember: she's not them. As the she scans show, she much more patient than some of us give her credit for, especially when she didn't even have close to half of the intel needed to make a proper decision considering the situation.
Shuri trusted T'Challa. The real issue is that T'Challa did not reciprocate that trust.[/QUOTE]
One nitpick:
Shuri actually cannot order tchalla to do anything while in Necropolis nor order the HZ to do anythinh.
Bast, shuris boss, gave that land to tchalla. Down there, he rules,like he said earlier in the isuue.
But, other rhan that nitpick... nice post. Tchalla not telling shuri whatsup then (he could have told her to send her guards away to talk in private) is OOC and hickman wanting to isolate tchalla
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[QUOTE=XPac;1732765]Maybe, but the fact of the matter is they're dead.
He doesn't need their help and he doesn't need their approval. If they don't appreciate him after all he did, then that's more their probem than his. He did the job.[/QUOTE]
[B]Except T'Challa greatly cares, that was one of his weaknesses in Priest's run which was that he always felt he was in his Father's Shadow and that he wanted to live up to the title like his dad. I don't agree with him not standing his ground when his dad and ancestors confronted him and how that whole hive mindset went, but it makes sense that he has always compared himself to T'Chaka and its good that he has that issue as it makes him human[/B]
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How is it out of character?
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732806]At the bold: I'm not too sure about that. On two occasions Shuri directly inquired T'Challa about Namor. First time, rather than going directly to war and having every reason to do so, she asks T'Challa's advice on whether or not to take Namor's offer of peace.
Ultimately, Shuri decides to go to war, but that's without knowing a thing about the incursions. I can almost guarantee that if T'Challa were to tell her right then and there about the incursions, Shuri would absolutely take that offer, if only because Wakanda faced a far bigger threat.[/quote]
Good point. She did offer T'Challa numerous chances to explain himself, which he refused. And yeah, that was ultimately the wrong decision. But two things; one, we don't know how she would have conducted herself around Namor. And if there's one thing Namor is fantastic at, it's pushing the wrong buttons. And two, we still don't know how much she would be able to see Namor as a viable resource in the first place after seeing the scope of the problem.
We know in hindsight that he'd be the one willing to destroy worlds, but none of the Illuminati knew it for sure then. Outside of that, Namor is no better than Black Bolt in terms of resource.
[quote]
Recall that when the Dora Milaje told Shuri that Namor was residing in the Necropolis and that he and T'Challa have met many times there. Rather than immediately demanding where Namor was, or even being outwardly be angry towards him, she shows quite a good amount of restraint and asks him why is Namor here.
As one can see, Shuri had a lot of respect for T'Challa and even trusted his judgement crisis situations. More importantly, Shuri showed a surprising amount of patience in all this. She could've easily and rightfully gone to war without a meeting or consulting T'Challa. Instead she flat out asks him for his advice in front of Wakanda's generals, despite being the Queen.
When T'Challa was caught lying, she could've rightfully demanded T'Challa to bring Namor to her right then and there. She even could've demanded the Hatute Zeraze to detain him immediately for treason. Instead she simply asked T'Challa to explain why Namor was here and why he was meeting with him, almost purely out of respect for her brother and his judgement. And when T'Challa refuses to tell her why, all she did was ban him from the city. She could've done a lot worse and TRULY jeopardize the illuminati's mission.[/quote]
All true, though how far she could go is debatable since we don't know checks and balances between the ruler of Necropolis and the ruler of Wakanda. She could have done far worse and attempted to shut down the whole operation.
[quote]
My contention: if T'Challa was forthright to her about the incursions and how they are a far bigger threat than Namor and Atlantis, which was 100% true, as well as explain to her why he allowed Namor in the Necropolis, then Shuri, due to practical reasons (the incursions) and trusting T'Challa's judgement, would surely not have gone to war but even possibly (and begrudgingly) temporarily put her grievences to the side concerning Namor. As I mentioned, she doesn't even have to be in the meetings, as long as she was in the loop.[/quote]
My contention: I don't think T'Challa's reason to allow Namor in Necropolis would be good enough to convince her, despite how much she trusts him. Because honestly, outside of "he's in the Illuminati and adds cynical realism to the group", how much did he add the grand scheme of things until The Great Society situation?
Further than that, moreso than anything Shuri could have done, Namor jeopardized the Illuminati's entire operation in Infinity, and jeopardized Wakanda. The second time was almost the final time. And by the time Namor admitted what he did, all hell would have broken loose in a different way than it already did.
Would it have happened if Shuri was in the know? If T'Challa's reasoning didn't work for her? Definitely. And by that point, they would all know Namor did it.
And that would be BEFORE the Great Society situation. Which essentially means the early end of the 616 unless Shuri is more willing to blow up earths than T'Challa.
[quote]
Shuri may be more aligned to the previous panthers, but lets remember: she's not them. As the she scans show, she much more patient than we give her credit for, especially when she didn't even have close to half of the intel needed to make a proper decision considering the situation.
Shuri trusted T'Challa. The real issue is that T'Challa did not reciprocate that trust.[/QUOTE]
That is true, but I still believe there was a valid reason to be wary of her involvement. It was ultimately wrong, but valid.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732806]At the bold: I'm not too sure about that. On two occasions Shuri directly inquired about Namor to T'Challa while showing restraint. First time, rather than going directly to war and having every reason to do so, she asks T'Challa's advice on whether or not to take Namor's offer of peace.
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-itW7M928-Yg/UsgRzeZokcI/AAAAAAABdXM/tnCZUMHVmaw/s1600/-022+copy.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e6jjxin89r0/UsgRz4j4jmI/AAAAAAABdXY/97cdRjGK9pg/s1600/-023+copy.jpg[/IMG]
Ultimately, Shuri decides to go to war, but that's without knowing a thing about the incursions. I can almost guarantee that if T'Challa were to tell her right then and there about the incursions, Shuri would absolutely take that offer, if only because Wakanda faced a far bigger threat.
Recall that when the Dora Milaje told Shuri that Namor was residing in the Necropolis and that he and T'Challa have met many times there. Rather than immediately demanding where Namor was, or even being outwardly be angry towards him, she shows quite a good amount of restraint and asks him why is Namor here.
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9dC1EOUlVpA/UpgMb1mgH1I/AAAAAAAAxz0/pwRbmwF5NcI/s1600/-011+copy.jpg[/IMG]
As one can see, Shuri had a lot of respect for T'Challa and even trusted his judgement crisis situations. More importantly, Shuri showed a surprising amount of patience in all this. She could've easily and rightfully gone to war without a meeting or consulting T'Challa. Instead she flat out asks him for his advice in front of Wakanda's generals, despite being the Queen.
When T'Challa was caught lying, she could've rightfully demanded T'Challa to bring Namor to her right then and there. She even could've demanded the Hatute Zeraze to detain him immediately for treason. Instead she simply asked T'Challa to explain why Namor was here and why he was meeting with him, almost purely out of respect for her brother and his judgement. And when T'Challa refuses to tell her why, all she did was ban him from the city. She could've done a lot worse and TRULY jeopardize the illuminati's mission.
My contention: if T'Challa was forthright with her about the incursions and how they are a far bigger threat than Namor and Atlantis, which was 100% true, as well as explain to her why he allowed Namor in the Necropolis, then Shuri, due to practical reasons (the incursions) and trusting T'Challa's judgement, would surely not have gone to war but even possibly (and begrudgingly) temporarily put her grievences to the side concerning Namor. As I mentioned, she doesn't even have to be in the meetings, as long as she was in the loop.
Shuri is obviously more traditional than T'Challa and may be more aligned to the previous panthers, but lets remember: she's not them. As the she scans show, she much more patient than some of us give her credit for, especially when she didn't even have close to half of the intel needed to make a proper decision considering the situation.
Shuri trusted T'Challa. The real issue is that T'Challa did not reciprocate that trust.[/QUOTE]
It's not just a matter of trust. You're committing your sister and your nation to a course of action which will inevitably murder billions upon billions of innocent people.
If you're T'challa you're probably only going to want to do it if he absolutely needs to.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1732833]
But, other rhan that nitpick... nice post. Tchalla not telling shuri whatsup then (he could have told her to send her guards away to talk in private) is OOC and hickman wanting to isolate tchalla[/QUOTE]
I don't believe it's OOC. It matches up not only with the theme (holding onto things like vital information/crisis info out of fear can be your undoing; thinking you need to do everything yourself is flawed and ultimately will lead to a collapse that makes everyone you put in danger unsuspecting victims), but it is a trait exhibited before by not just T'Challa, but the entire illuminati.
Except Steve usually.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1732840]It's not just a matter of trust. You're committing your sister and your nation to a course of action which will inevitably murder billions upon billions of innocent people.
If you're T'challa you're probably only going to want to do it if he absolutely needs to.[/QUOTE]
That's another good point. That path is not something you'd want your loved ones to feel the brunt of.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1732836][B]Except T'Challa greatly cares, that was one of his weaknesses in Priest's run which was that he always felt he was in his Father's Shadow and that he wanted to live up to the title like his dad. I don't agree with him not standing his ground when his dad and ancestors confronted him and how that whole hive mindset went, but it makes sense that he has always compared himself to T'Chaka and its good that he has that issue as it makes him human[/B][/QUOTE]
Sure. And if he feels bad then he feels bad.
But ultimately he knows he got the job done. These are people who have been deaf for decades, so it's not like T'Challa needs their help or their approval one way or the other. If he has it fine. If he doesn't then really that changes nothing.
For me the bottom line is he saved the freaking multiverse. Anyone that can't give him the appreciation he deserves doesn't have appreciation worth having.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1732755]
In hickmans run, tchalla brought in the people he thoughr could fix the problem that would have destroyed everything. Using wakanda as a base makes sense again. Wakandas strength kept thanos at bay for a bit and sent an invasion back. I think shuri should have been on the illuminati like she eventually was later but im not going to fault tchalla for storing earth destroying bombs in tge safest place on earth[/QUOTE]
The fact that T'Challa did all that without telling Shuri what was going on put Wakanda in harms way by default:
-Wakanda could've taken extra measures to protect the Necropolis from potential threats, considering it was storing highly-powerful bombs and important captives.
-Shuri very likely would not have gone to war if she knew there was a far bigger threat than Namor.
-Wakanda could've have been much better prepared if it knew why Thanos' army came in the first place.
-Whether you agree with his decision or not, T'Challa agreed to a solution that he ultimately couldn't go through with, nearly dooming Wakanda and his world.
-More Wakandans could've survived the final attack if Shuri (and thus Wakanda) knew exactly what and who they were dealing with ahead of time.
Whether or not Wakanda survived is moot, as the nature of the story dictated that everything was going to die anything. The point is how and why it happened. T'Challa, despite his intention, did a lot of harm along the way.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1732833]One nitpick:
[B]Shuri actually cannot order tchalla to do anything while in Necropolis nor order the HZ to do anythinh.[/B]
Bast, shuris boss, gave that land to tchalla. Down there, he rules,like he said earlier in the isuue.
But, other rhan that nitpick... nice post. Tchalla not telling shuri whatsup then (he could have told her to send her guards away to talk in private) is OOC and hickman wanting to isolate tchalla[/QUOTE]
At the bold: whether or not she actually had the authority to do it isn't too important. The bottomline is she is the Queen of Wakanda, Namor is considered an enemy of Wakanda and T'Challa was harboring him. Demanding T'Challa to hand over Namor could've been a formality, before she outright forces her way in, which she could've. She had the muscle (the Doras and HZ) to do it.
Instead, she simply leaves without asking any further questions and simply bans him from the city. Another show of trust, I suppose.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732854]The fact that T'Challa did all that without telling Shuri what was going on put Wakanda in harms way by default:
-Wakanda could've taken extra measures to protect the Necropolis from potential threats, considering it was storing highly-powerful bombs and important captives.
-Shuri very likely would not have gone to war if she knew there was a far bigger threat than Namor.
-Wakanda could've have been much better prepared if it knew why Thanos' army came in the first place.
-Whether you agree with his decision or not, T'Challa agreed to a solution that he ultimately couldn't go through with, nearly dooming Wakanda and his world.
-More Wakandans could've survived the final attack if Shuri (and thus Wakanda) knew exactly what and who they were dealing with ahead of time.
Whether or not Wakanda survived is moot, as the nature of the story dictated that everything was going to die anything. The point is how and why it happened. T'Challa, despite his intention, did a lot of harm along the way.[/QUOTE]
Thanos invasion really had nothing to do with the incursions though. She could have known about all of that and still be blind sided by Thanos in Infinity.
Though certainly they might at least be more prepared after Thanos escaped.
But that's probably a good thing. If Wakanda was guarding Thanos Namor might not have been able to free them and they all would have died from the incursions.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732859]At the bold: whether or not she actually had the authority to do it isn't too important. The bottomline is she is the Queen of Wakanda, Namor is considered an enemy of Wakanda and T'Challa was harboring him. Demanding T'Challa to hand over Namor could've been a formality, before she outright forces her way in, which she could've. She had the muscle (the Doras and HZ) to do it.
Instead, ironically enough, she simply leaves without asking any further questions and simply bans him from the city. Anothe show of trust, I suppose.[/QUOTE]
Come on, shuri forcing her way in would have just ended up with tchalla adding to his feats list lol
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1732866]Come on, shuri forcing her way in would have just ended up with tchalla adding to his feats list lol[/QUOTE]
At that moment at least I doubt Shuri was ready for a fight with Namor and T'Challa.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1732840]It's not just a matter of trust. You're committing your sister and your nation to a course of action which will inevitably murder billions upon billions of innocent people.
If you're T'challa you're probably only going to want to do it if he absolutely needs to.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Double 0;1732848]That's another good point. That path is not something you'd want your loved ones to feel the brunt of.[/QUOTE]
The situation was simply far bigger than T'Challa or the illuminati from the get go. They simply were too arrogant to realize that until it was too late.
As for whether or not to have Shuri bear the brunt of it all, being that she's a loved on, that is also not a decision for T'Challa to make for Shuri. She wasn't a civilian, nor a regular superhero, she's was Black Panther. Tackling any legitimate threat against Wakanda, no matter how big or small, was part of her job description. And she couldn't do anything about it nor adequately protect her people because her brother refused to tell her about it. If she knew about it, she would absolutely want to either help out somehow or be involved in some fashion.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1732866]Come on, shuri forcing her way in would have just ended up with tchalla adding to his feats list lol[/QUOTE]
You are saying T'Challa would've defeated Shuri (a black panther), the Doras and the HZ (highly trained warriors) all at the same time?
[QUOTE=XPac;1732870]At that moment at least I doubt Shuri was ready for a fight with Namor and T'Challa.[/QUOTE]
Again, that's beside the point. Purely out of duty, she could've barged in. But she chose not to in the end and left T'challa to his own devices.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732854]The fact that T'Challa did all that without telling Shuri what was going on put Wakanda in harms way by default:
-Wakanda could've taken extra measures to protect the Necropolis from potential threats, considering it was storing highly-powerful bombs and important captives.
-Shuri very likely would not have gone to war if she knew there was a far bigger threat than Namor.
-Wakanda could've have been much better prepared if it knew why Thanos' army came in the first place.
-Whether you agree with his decision or not, T'Challa agreed to a solution that he ultimately couldn't go through with, nearly dooming Wakanda and his world.
-More Wakandans could've survived the final attack if Shuri (and thus Wakanda) knew exactly what and who they were dealing with ahead of time.
Whether or not Wakanda survived is moot, as the nature of the story dictated that everything was going to die anything. The point is how and why it happened. T'Challa, despite his intention, did a lot of harm along the way.[/QUOTE]
You are changing what i am saying and bringing in elements that have nothing to do with what i said (like puling the trigger)
Facts...
- storing the bombs in necropolis is tge safest place on earth
- no one planned on thanos coming to town. And he didnt invade for bombs, that was just an intetesting find later on.
- wakanda coulda been on full alert for thanos and itvwoukdnt have mattered. Its thanos. Steve sent his heavy hitters after him and the only thing that stopped him was a plot device
What you can wander is why a group of geniuses decided to let a dude named maximus the mad to not only join tge party but leave jim home alone
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[QUOTE=Ekie;1732811]Range. He needs the knives as well. The movie will make the claws his "trademark weapon" but It would be nice if he could use the claws to form something he can throw at range.[/QUOTE]
[B]Here is what I think should be standard:
Wearable Kimoyo (Ewings updated from Priest)
Antimetal claws
Energy dagger's (Priest's version, fired like darts with stun and kill settings add in Hickman's energy bthat allowed him to destroy energy Shields as well)
Vibranium Microweave w/ energy dampening boots
Cloaking
Shadow physics teleportation (Ewing version)
Gun diffuser (Hudlin)
Force push (soon to come from Coates)[/B]
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732878]You are saying T'Challa would've taken on Shuri (a black panther), the Doras and the HZ (highly trained warriors) all at the same time?[/QUOTE]
Yes,i am saying he would have stomped them to the ground
Yes, the body guards are trained warriord and yes, shuri is a bp... but tchalla is THE warrior and THE bp.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732877]The situation was simply far bigger than T'Challa or the illuminati from the get go. They simply were too arrogant to realize that until it was too late.
As for whether or not to have Shuri bear the brunt of it all, being that she's a loved on, that is also not a decision for T'Challa to make for Shuri. She wasn't a civilian, nor a regular superhero, she's was Black Panther. Tackling any legitimate threat against Wakanda, no matter how big or small, was part of her job description. And she couldn't do anything about it nor adequately protect her people because her brother refused to tell her about it. If she knew about it, she would absolutely want to either help out somehow or be involved in some fashion.[/QUOTE]
I agree the situation was bigger than the Illuminati. That said I'm skeptical bringing in Shuri would have been much help.
Like I said I think the more likely outcome would be losing Namor.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732877]The situation was simply far bigger than T'Challa or the illuminati from the get go. They simply were too arrogant to realize that until it was too late.
As for whether or not to have Shuri bear the brunt of it all, being that she's a loved on, that is also not a decision for T'Challa to make for Shuri. She wasn't a civilian, nor a regular superhero, she's was Black Panther. Tackling any legitimate threat against Wakanda, no matter how big or small, was part of her job description. And she couldn't do anything about it nor adequately protect her people because her brother refused to tell her about it. If she knew about it, she would absolutely want to either help out somehow or be involved in some fashion.[/QUOTE]
Actually the Panther God refused to tell her about it.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1732880]You are changing what i am saying and bringing in elements that have nothing to do with what i said (like puling the trigger)
Facts...
- storing the bombs in necropolis is tge safest place on earth
- no one planned on thanos coming to town. And he didnt invade for bombs, that was just an intetesting find later on.
- wakanda coulda been on full alert for thanos and itvwoukdnt have mattered. Its thanos. Steve sent his heavy hitters after him and the only thing that stopped him was a plot device
What you can wander is why a group of geniuses decided to let a dude named maximus the mad to not only join tge party but leave jim home alone[/QUOTE]
A quick note: I hope I didn't insinuate that Thanos invaded because of the bombs. That is obviously not the case.
In general, all I was trying to say that that Wakanda may have been far better prepared if T'Challa provided Shuri the proper intel concerning the situation. He did not. Thus, Wakanda was defending itself without full knowledge of the threat(s). Again, whether or not Wakanda survives is besides the point and is moot, as the story dictated that everything dies.
As for the pulling the trigger, the minute T'Challa refused to do so, rightfully or not, Wakanda wasn't just in harms way, it faced imminent death. That's a fact.
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[QUOTE=Ekie;1732891]Actually the Panther God refused to tell her about it.[/QUOTE]
...so what? T'Challa still could've her something. You can even argue he didn't need to tell her immediately about Namor, but at least about the incursions.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1732892]A quick note: I hope I didn't insinuate that Thanos invaded because of the bombs. That is obviously not the case.
In general, all I was trying to say that that Wakanda may have been far better prepared if T'Challa provided Shuri the proper intel concerning the situation. He did not. Thus, Wakanda was defending itself without full knowledge of the threat(s). Again, whether or not Wakanda survives is besides the point and is moot, as the story dictated that everything dies.
As for the pulling the trigger, the minute T'Challa refused to do so, rightfully or not, Wakanda wasn't just in harms way, it faced imminent death. That's a fact.[/QUOTE]
I dont think even Tchalla knew the full scale of the thanos threat. I remember BB telling them he was looking for his son but i cant remembee if they expected a full scale evasion of earth or not