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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3258020]I'd hardly call it 'thicker' in many respects.
This issue has Wakanda built atop the stolen land of spider people and orcs. Though the dialogue is (amazingly) accusing towards early Wakandians, those being dispossessed are inhuman monsters, which undermines a good portion of any intended symbolism (thankfully) and sympathy.
I honestly think plenty of people 'get' what Coates' is doing, and simply don't care for it.[/QUOTE]
And that's fair. But for the people who do like it, they're not wrong or lesser fans for enjoying Coates' run.
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[QUOTE=Ziggiyy;3255482]Just read the new issue and even though I have continually shitted on Coates and will likely do so in the future...
This wasn’t a bad issue at ALL. It’s almost like it was written by a completely different author.
T’Challa is given MAJOR respect in this issue. No shade is thrown his way whatsoever.
Shuri gives a completely in-character and badass speech to Thunderball
The history of Wakanda and the Originators is told in a cool and interesting manner
This is the very FIRST issue I’ve read of Coates run that actually was a pure “page turner” since issue 1. The ending was badass as well.
I am 100% convinced Marvel Editorial told Coates to chill with his bullshit castration of the character. This issue was a complete 180.[/QUOTE]
The story of the Originators and their conquest by the Proto-Wakandans is absolutely something Coates would have written. I don't get why people can't accept that he had a story to tell and told that story and he bears no desire to tear down T'Challa or whatever or that he's incapable of listening to feedback unless it was editorial who forced it upon him. [ETA: Reading ahead, it seems many of those who dislike how Coates writes this book at least agree with me that this is absolutely something Coates could have come up with and wrote without editorial pushing, even if we disagree on most other things about this issue.]
Anyway, this was a cool issue that answered a lot of questions I was frankly expecting answered last issue. It's good to get hints at the Orishas and the Originators and how things came to be. I like the moral ambiguity of the position. What happened in the past is not excusable, but that doesn't mean Wakanda can give up what it is now because of it. On the other hand, there is a simplistic but powerful motivation for the Antagonist. They are reconquering their homeland. I also love the nod to continuity, both of this book and other books accompanied by old-school editorial footnotes. Whether they were Coates idea or Moss's suggestion, I can't say, but I love it when Marvel builds on itself rather than doing its own thing.
[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;3256630]I miss the simplicity of Wakanda's origin: a nation that was never conquered by whites, nor their African neighbors. As a result, they were the one nation to develop uninterrupted in Africa. In doing so, the nation became advanced. As a side effect, many Wakandans became insulated, snobbish, and xenophobic. However, writers like Priest, & Hudlin did this with comedic sensibilities. With the discovery that Wakanda is technologically advanced, and filthy rich with Vibranium, neighboring countries, and outsiders want to take over, and exploit the land. Like any country on Earth, Wakanda is separated by competing tribes. Many of these tribes want to rule Wakanda. I can honestly see BP dealing with one coup every six months, or so. A key point of T'Challa's rule is to defend his land from internal & external threats. He also has to balance the old traditions with modern sensibilities. BP has this conflict internally due to the time he spent away from Wakanda to learn about the world.[/quote]
Keep in mind that's not what Priest wrote, it's what Hudlin retconned. I feel Hudlin is not given enough credit for his invention of Wakanda as we know it. If you want simplicity of origin, the origin of Wakanda until the time Hudlin wrote "Who is the Black Panther"is as follows: Wakanda was just an African nation until T'Chaka was murdered and T'Challa took over. At that point, T'Challa sold some of the Vibranium they had to bring in scientists both from the east and the west (since they had no interest in the Cold War). Combined with their traditional Wakandan values, they created the most advanced nation on Earth. All that was thrown out with Reginald Hudlin, but that was the origin story.
[QUOTE=Cville;3256587]I havent read it but this is how bleeding cool viewed it.
[url]https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11/22/ta-nehisi-coates-black-panther-167/[/url][/QUOTE]
BleedingCool is going with the Kirby version of the story. This particular part is not inconsistent with Hudlin's part, although it's not quite the same either. One of the things that Hudlin wanted to focus on is the idea that Wakanda is great due to an inherent Wakandan-ness, not due to a rock that fell from space. On that note, there's absolutely nothing inconsistent here. Wakanda existed before Vibranium. After the originators were defeated, they protected the land at the backing of their gods. Some time after that, the Vibranium meteor landed. I wonder if the Originators came from the portal of the Resurrection Altar from Priest's run (#25is).
[QUOTE=robreedwrites;3256791]We're talking pre-Bashenga history here. Obviously the story is meant to have thematic parallel s to real-life colonialism (I mean, this is the week of Thanksgiving), but with the period we'd be talking about (before 8,000 BCE, if Bashenga is still supposed to be 10,000 years ago), and the fact that we're dealing with fantasy creatures, it's more like the history of man in LotR than anything else. It also has some parallel s with Thor: Ragnarok.[/QUOTE]
That's my take as well. Colonialism is problematic, but you also can't unring the bell. Something from ancient history based on a war that started after two people settled together with the best of intentions means your history isn't squeaky clean. It doesn't mean there's anything that could or should be done about it. The Wakandans settled peacefully. Eventually, the Originators attacked them. As a matter of survival, the Wakandans forced out the Originators. Sure, the Originators were there first, but this is something that's a natural part of any history.
I mentioned it above, but I'd love it if the Originators tied into Black Panther #25 by Chris Priest. That would be a nice consistent continuity nod.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3258043]I actually like that there isn't necessarily a clear cut good guy or bad guy in that situation.
The humans and monsters initially shared the land until the humans did something to offend them, but the monsters did attack first from what I could tell and the humans do have a right to defend themselves at that point. So I'm not sure either side can honestly claim they were innocent there as the monsters do have a legit gripe. BUt I actually think that's kind of nice, since it's typically so easy in the genre to just make the monsters the evil badguys without having any sort of perspective of their own. There's actually a bit more layers to it. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out, as I do think some degree of intended sympathy is being created for them.[/QUOTE]
It wasn't clear cut, but the subtext was barely that.
"They lived in peace, thrived. Then came man, obsessed with title and lacking in grace."
And off the originators (God damn subtle, that name) get kicked.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;3258080]I mentioned it above, but I'd love it if the Originators tied into Black Panther #25 by Chris Priest. That would be a nice consistent continuity nod.[/QUOTE]
In what manner are you talking about? The resurrection chamber?
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[QUOTE=Rumble;3257262]Ta-Nehisi is a try hard.
Tryna fix something that is neither broken nor in need of fixing. Changing just to change things b/c he [B][I]desperately[/I][/B] wants to be the Christoper Priest of the mytho when he's done.
Makes me wonder how much micro-managing he's doing with these other writers that he brings in for these spin-offs, and then making sure his name is on the credits.[/QUOTE]
Hopefully the next creative team will completely ignore his rubbish.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3257274]Ultimately, Marvel are equally culpable in what Coates is doing.
They sign off on his stories after all's said and done.
Vote with your wallets and stop supporting the book.
Marvel will soon get the message loud and clear.[/QUOTE]
I've been sticking with the MCU, and that works for me.
Kevin Feige needs to run the comics division, too.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3257317][COLOR="#000080"]Wakanda was complex and layered long before Coates. Wakanda was never an idealized society. They are a highly advanced nation where science and tradition often clash. That dynamic scenario always presented it's own set of problems as evidenced in Priest's run.
Coates has taken a giant step backwards in his attempts to Westernize Wakanda. His introduction of stereotypical views of Africa into Wakandan lore in an attempt to "humanize" T'Challa and make him "more relatable" have done nothing but diminish him into a half-hearted, mopey king filled with self-doubt, incredibly stupid judgement and no sense of self.
T'Challa has had failure before, he isn't perfect. No Panther fan has ever said he was. So the idea that T'Challa needed to be humanized and relatable is laughable.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Hickman had the same problem, imo.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3258091]In what manner are you talking about? The resurrection chamber?[/QUOTE]
Essentially, the concept that the Resurrection Altar was an alien portal. Essentially, in that story, it was revealed that Earth had been used as a penal colony for generations via that portal. I'll attach an image when I can get it visible.
Sorry I can't make it any bigger:
[img]https://www.use.com/images/s_2/3feeafd44e1ff4a12def.jpg[/img]
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[QUOTE=Rumble;3257323]Interesting. I never read that book (or heard of Coates before he was announced as BP writer) but just reading season 1 and how obsessed he was with imposing rape culture and the victimization of the black woman by the black man in Wakanda, it made me wonder about the author's views and/or upbringing in life. Because at the end of the day this is fantasy/fiction wish-fulfillment. And if he's not for male fantasy wish-fulfillment or afro-futuristic wish-fulfillment, then what desires is he trying to inject into this mytho?
Rhetorical question, b/c i think you nailed it.
And remember the Mother story to Shuri about the black woman who preserved through being married off and raped by her husband... and then the other story about the proud woman/wife being the one to step up and save Wakanda because the black men shriveled in the face of adversity?
That was very telling, back then, about Ta-Nehisi.
... it spoke[/QUOTE]
This is BP, not CP (Color Purple)!
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[QUOTE=Things Fall Apart;3257376]LOL. I forgot about the CBB.[/QUOTE]
We all we got.. CBB
[QUOTE=Rumble;3257413]Ta-Nehisi is just being negative just to be negative.
His agenda is to change Wakanda into having the same history as white Americans, and to impose on them the same rape culture as America.
Unbelievable.
With black people like him writing comics, who needs racist white people? He's a more tactful uncle ruckus.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3257493][COLOR="#000080"]The sales speak for themselves and it's not just people on CBR who don't like Coates run. Saying that it's only a handful of complainers in this thread is disingenuous.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Real As It Gets
QUOTE=Prof. Warren;3258071]And that's fair. But for the people who do like it, they're not wrong or lesser fans for enjoying Coates' run.[/QUOTE]
Coates work is trash simple as that..No deeper meaning to understand or overdig
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[QUOTE=Rumble;3257346]Yea, it's funny hearing the whole "idealized society", as if Priest's run didn't exist. or the other writers before him that wrote Wakanda as a complex society didn't exist.
It's like when people were talking about Ta-Nehisi's Aneka and Ayo, as if Priest didn't bomb first with Okoye and Nakia 20 years prior. The same Okoye and Nakia that are in the movie.
The revisionist history is crazy. Ta-Nehisi's attempts to usurp Priest by being a try hard is sad, and more egregious are the attempts of the social media outlets trying to act like Ta-Nehisi is the one who came up with these movie concepts even when Coogler and Boseman repeatedly say Priest was the big enchilada.
It's all good tho. We'll keep on reminding everyone :cool:[/QUOTE]
In Priest's first arc, we saw tribal warfare within Wakanda, plus Achebe took over while BP ripping out the devil's heart in America.
Speaking of the Mephisto....Ross & Peter Parker would have a deep conversation about marriage & pants.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;3258103]Essentially, the concept that the Resurrection Altar was an alien portal. Essentially, in that story, it was revealed that Earth had been used as a penal colony for generations via that portal. I'll attach an image when I can get it visible.[/QUOTE]
I'd bet money that the resurrection chamber was created by someone prior to Priest. Remember that Wakanda has/had some weird shit in terms of geography. When was the last time we saw the frozen forest?
And it's not fair to say that the resurrection chamber ties into the Originators (subtle name!). They seem to rely more on magic, were banished by magic, and the name of the 'Resurrection Chamber' is itself misleading. It was always a portal, but those in Wakanda thought it was to bring back the dead.
Only aliens, of all different worlds, realized it to be a portal in which to escape earth
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[QUOTE=Rumble;3257504]Hhahahaah
What's funny is that Coogler is turning Black Panther into black America's "Spiderman". And all he did was expand on what Priest gave him (cerebral mastermind, ladies man) and Hudlin amplified (charm and charisma, 007 like).
Ta-Nehisi is just trying to turn Black Panther (and Wakanda) into black people's white guilt.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget the Stan, Jack, and Don influences on the beautiful Wakanda layouts.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3257505][COLOR="#000080"]Despite his "Parker Luck", Spidey gets to kick ass in his comic on a regular basis.
And dating hot chicks is such a curse.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Spidey beat Firelord, a herald of Galactus that wrecked the X-Men in less than five minutes.
But then, Spidey also beat the X-Men in about five minutes.
Dude was making chump change taking pictures of himself, yet surrounded with beauties.
I did not start dating hot chicks until I got a real jobby-job.
"...got to have a j-o-b if you want to be with me...."
Some say "play on, playa"...I say "play on Parker"...
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3258115]I'd bet money that the resurrection chamber was created by someone prior to Priest.[/quote]
It was. It was created by Don McGregor as part of the Panther's Rage story arc. It was where Baron Macabre was mutating people on behalf of Erik Killmonger. Priest's story is where they revealed the energy coming from it was an transdimensional portal.
[quote]And it's not fair to say that the resurrection chamber ties into the Originators (subtle name!). They seem to rely more on magic, were banished by magic, and the name of the 'Resurrection Chamber' is itself misleading. It was always a portal, but those in Wakanda thought it was to bring back the dead.[/quote]
There's a blurry line between magic and science (any sufficiently advanced technology and all that). The Resurrection Altar was magic until it was revealed to not be. It also always did more than bring people back from the dead. My suggestion isn't even that magic wasn't used to banish them. My suggestion is that the originators were not originally from Earth but from the portal. It would explain why they settled in Wakanda as opposed to elsewhere. Basically, I'm suggesting that the Originators did not "originate" in Wakanda.