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[QUOTE=robreedwrites;92691]Part 2 of my analysis on Priest's run.
[URL="http://robreedwrites.wordpress.com/2014/05/18/journey-through-comics-priests-black-panther-part-2/"]Journey Through Comics: Priest's Black Panther Part 2[/URL]
As I mention at the beginning of the post, I bit off a little more than I can chew, and I'm having some formatting issues that I'm working on, so this just goes over issue #2 right now. I'm going to try to get that solved for next week.
Once again, I'm definitely open to any observations/criticisms. One of my own concerns is that I'm focusing heavily on Ross right now, which I want to do to show what he's functioning as narrative-wise, but hopefully not at the expense of everything else. I'm hoping it will get more balanced as he fades more into the background.[/QUOTE]
Enjoyed it again. One thing stood out to me however was your assessment that T'Challa did not fully trust the Dora Milaje. I don't think it was a matter of him not trusting them. They couldn't have made it this far up the ranks if he didn't trust them. I think it was just a reminder to them that they are not in Wakanda and cannot operate as they are normally expected to do.
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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;91323][IMG]https://31.media.tumblr.com/4b96d6499f0bbb4931b6959a982ca4c1/tumblr_n5cki91Eif1tn3h9ho1_500.jpg[/IMG]
I love this look[/QUOTE]
Just make the pads darker..and it gets my vote.
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[QUOTE=The_Panther;92639]I used BM as an example that even if he was without a base of operations, or government ties he is still BM. BP could be the same way. Both could be relevent across the multiverse. For that charator type BM is my favorite (superman archtype). Take away the anti matter generator (that he is) he is still a super genius , olympic athlete, a highly dedicated person, that can see the big picture.[/QUOTE]
T'challa/BP and BM are completely different characters. BM's identity comes from his abilities and what he went through with the government. T'challa/BPs identity comes from being King of Wakanda and the science and spiritualism of Wakanda. BM without his powers and history with the government is just a random scientist. T'challa without Wakandan kingship, science and spiritualism is a random dude in a catsuit. Different characters are built around different core concepts seperate them from their core concepts and they become nothing.
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We interrupt your regularly scheduled posting to bring you the following news...
Godzilla Beyotches: Bow Down Now Or Else!
It's not about the King of The Dead... The King of The Monsters!
Today's movies are bringing that serious tone leaving all the campy loopholes in the dust!
Sometimes the most simple approach is the best way to go and with all the back and forth issues concerning Black Panther and what he should do or should be in his own movie it is often best to trim the fat and just go all in with no compromising or hesitation whatsoever!
Godzilla may be the best formula to use for Black Panther because it had that Batman Begins vibe and a nice origins set up that told a pretty good story without sucking all the air out of the room!
In a best case scenario it is wise not to be too all over the place and more direct in your approach when dealing with an iconic character with such a rich history!
Black Panther should not be like a website full of multiple links that take you everywhere else but the home page losing itself in a bundle of convolution!
If you can't define him in less than a short paragraph then you have way too many moving parts and are probably trying to appease or appeal to those who never will buy into the concept!
One should only have to Google the main character not everything associated/attached to the main character that really should belong to other franchises by default!
If your characters powers are from outside sources and yet he has his own sources and yet some other legacy source added to that then he has to have his mode of operation toned down for consumer digestion... People want to be fed not overstuffed with gallons of useless facts that they will forget as soon as the next great thing comes along!
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[QUOTE=Zuri;94600]T'challa/BP and BM are completely different characters. BM's identity comes from his abilities and what he went through with the government. T'challa/BPs identity comes from being King of Wakanda and the science and spiritualism of Wakanda. BM without his powers and history with the government is just a random scientist. T'challa without Wakandan kingship, science and spiritualism is a random dude in a catsuit. Different characters are built around different core concepts seperate them from their core concepts and they become nothing.[/QUOTE]
There was a question proposed.
"And for those who question the 10,000 years of Wakandan history and it's importance to T'Challa's history let me pose a question...
Would there be a T'Challa without Wakanda?"
I answered in my opinion YES.
I was then asked to elaborate.
And I did.
I should not have to elaborate any further due to the fact that the present T'Challa is not in "Wakanda". He is on the outskirts of Wakanda. He is not King of Wakanda, he is the KotD. I'm not going to chase moving goal posts or deal with Strawmen. I agree that Wakanda is very important to T'Challa's history. But can the charactor exist without it. The answer is yes. Because it is being done now. It has been done with many other Charactors from BM to Conan the Barbarian. Their origins are merely backdrops to the the charactor.
I have answered with my opinion. In this question there is no right or wrong answer. It is one based on opinion. I'm not wrong neither is anyone else. I was asked to explain myself when initially it was stated that a simple YES OR NO would have been enough. If you can't accept my present answer then don't. Everyone on the "No" side have stated their opinions.
I would like to ask you this.
Presently there are at least 12 tribes that make up "Wakanda" do these other tribes make T'Challa or just the Panther God?
I have stated my opinion on this.
In yet another attempt to clearify
As long as T'Challa is Basts Champion he is T'Challa. Not some random person in a catsuit. Shuri isn't even that. The Panther God is not Wakanda.
To answer the question again. YES T'Challa would be T'Challa without Wakanda.
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"In this I am not a man..I am a nation."
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[QUOTE=The_Panther;95025]There was a question proposed.
"And for those who question the 10,000 years of Wakandan history and it's importance to T'Challa's history let me pose a question...
Would there be a T'Challa without Wakanda?"
I answered in my opinion YES.
I was then asked to elaborate.
And I did.
I should not have to elaborate any further due to the fact that the present T'Challa is not in "Wakanda". He is on the outskirts of Wakanda. He is not King of Wakanda, he is the KotD. I'm not going to chase moving goal posts or deal with Strawmen. I agree that Wakanda is very important to T'Challa's history. But can the charactor exist without it. The answer is yes. Because it is being done now. It has been done with many other Charactors from BM to Conan the Barbarian. Their origins are merely backdrops to the the charactor.
I have answered with my opinion. In this question there is no right or wrong answer. It is one based on opinion. I'm not wrong neither is anyone else. I was asked to explain myself when initially it was stated that a simple YES OR NO would have been enough. If you can't accept my present answer then don't. Everyone on the "No" side have stated their opinions.
I would like to ask you this.
Presently there are at least 12 tribes that make up "Wakanda" do these other tribes make T'Challa or just the Panther God?
I have stated my opinion on this.
In yet another attempt to clearify
As long as T'Challa is Basts Champion he is T'Challa. Not some random person in a catsuit. Shuri isn't even that. The Panther God is not Wakanda.
To answer the question again. YES T'Challa would be T'Challa without Wakanda.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't really talking about that question or if you agree or disagree with it. In the post that I quoted you were talking about Blue Marvel/T'challa and making a point about characterization, I thought you missed some points on how the back story/setting made the character as any character can have any powers the story behind why they have those powers and who they are gives the character identity.
As i was not commenting on your choice so i do not need the clarification but i will comment on your clarification since it was based on my previous response. Bast is a part of Wakanda you could argue that she is the thing that keeps it together. T'challa came into contact with Bast through Wakanda. Bast/the panther god is venerated in Wakanda and to an extent protects Wakanda. As the champion of Bast T'challa is the champion of Wakanda. All these concepts are intertwined, each gives the other identity and value and each would loose identity if separated.
But whatever your opinion is your opinion i might comment on stuff you say but i am not crusading to change your opinion.
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[QUOTE=The_Panther;95025]
I should not have to elaborate any further due to the fact that the present T'Challa is not in "Wakanda". He is on the outskirts of Wakanda. He is not King of Wakanda, he is the KotD. I'm not going to chase moving goal posts or deal with Strawmen. I agree that Wakanda is very important to T'Challa's history. But can the charactor exist without it. The answer is yes. Because it is being done now. It has been done with many other Charactors from BM to Conan the Barbarian. Their origins are merely backdrops to the the charactor. [/QUOTE]
The Necropolis being situated on the "outskirts of Wakanda" is news to me.
In which book was this established? :confused:
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If anything, the Necroopolis is the "center" of Wakanda as it is in any culture. How a culture responds to and treats death is very much at its heart. Any culture. So much of the religion, philosophy, and culture of a society are tied up in their death rituals that they are nearly one and the same. Pretty much indistinguishable. Most anthropological studies will focus on death rituals because it is so central to any culture. And so many things can influence how a people may view death and life. Some places on earth have an "air" burial because the ground is too hard for burial and fuel for any cremation is scarce. So simple geography can not only influence how one culture might treat their dead, it can also influence the stories and mythology they tell explain death. Hunter/gatherer cultures myths about death can be markedly different from agrarian societies. So to believe the necropolis might be on the edge of Wakanda geographically (although I don't remember seeing this in any issue) is one thng, but it is at or near the center of their society metaphorically speaking.
I do not dispute that T'Challa would not T'Challa without Wakanda, but what I wonder is if the 10,000 years makes him a better character; if it really does strengthen the mythos or add too many moving parts. Was 100 centuries really needed or just 10? Maybe just five or even three. Just three hundred years would give Wakanda about a century on the industrial revolution of the rest of the world. But since Waknda is a different nation with and without the 10,00 years, so to is T'Challa.
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Necropolis is like the bat cave an isolated area... The question is how do the New Avengers meet without being noticed in Wakandan air space!
If Reed, Tony and them can come at will is that not a national security breach for Wakanda as a whole?
And how is Namor able to stick around unnoticed to listen in on and later clap loudly at T'challa's conversation with Shuri and the broken spears tribe of Doras?
So Shuri is a Black Panther that cannot smell stinky fish when it is right up a small hill waiting to applaud?
Personally I would rather they ditched the whole Necropolis thang and deal with the politics downtown at the royal palace... It smells better and the sleeping arrangements are first class!
It's bad enough you had mummies coming out of Necropolis in the Fantastic Four issues 607-608 but keeping B-Swizzy on lockdown at a prison even the rank and file of Wakanda's elite don't know about is questionable... T'challa is not King of Wakanda and even if Necropolis was like Washington D.C. it's own separate district it still resides on Wakandan soil ruled by a man who is no longer the chief ruler of that country!
Wakandan security should have long since arrested or detained T'challa for treason many issues ago but I guess they are still too busy draining all that ocean water Namor drowned them in to do their duties!
How exactly are you King of The Dead when you killed more people being just plain old Black Panther than being Bast's champion?
Why are their not worshippers or regular attenders to the Necropolis holy grave sites... It seems like T'challa is there mostly by his lonesome so that artists don't have to draw other people not named B-Swizzy, Reed or Tony!
Note: If Wakanda does not have a 10,000 year history then they would have been colonized or oppressed just like their neighbors or basically just another average African nation in between down times!
America in the Marvel universe lives with the Reed Richards factor which pushes them fictionally beyond the Bill Gates/Steve Jobs tech capabilities... Stark Industries makes stuff that would put Microsoft and Apple out of business in one weekend!
If Wakanda is to be of any importance to the total landscape of the Marvel universe it needs an advantage like the one 10,000 years undefeated gives it... The Necropolis detour leads to no where recalibrate the GPS and find your way back home!
Black Panther... Significant Other/Love Interest... Rogues Gallery... Wakanda... Period!
STOP THE RANGE ROVER SIR!!!
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Are you really saying an African nation needs 10,000 years advantage? When Both Stark and Reed tech have advanced so much over 50-60 years why would T'Challa's be any different? What would make Wakanda stand above "average" African nations is T'Chaka and T'Challa and vibranium. They were the wakandan reason Wakanda stepped it up. Wakanda was fine without the 10,000 years for forty years. 10,000 years is 100 centuries worth of moving parts. It is too late to just say no, but I will make the comparison again that 10,000 years of previous advantage handed to Peter Parker or Bruce Wayne would have their fan base up in arms because it detracts from their original story and therefore the character. I am willing to live with the 10,000 years. But I want my money back on the light armor.
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Wakanda without 10,000 years is just another colony!
Do the math Africa had many setbacks like slavery, apartheid and Hitler literally clamoring to make it his playground!
Not to mention the many African empires that rose and fell like Ghana, Mali and Songhay... My good friend has an African quiz book on those nations and I might post some of the questions in reference to those that failed to make the historical records for some strange reason!
There was also Arab slave traders doing big business all over Africa not to mention the many plagues and setbacks here and there coupled with recent China power investment moves!
Reed and Stark as fictional characters make great tech but as Americans they are not undefeated in military campaigns... That is where good old fashioned "Escapism" comes in for the fictional nation of Wakanda which has no blemishes on the record!
The whole point of fantasy is the concept of things that may not necessarily be possible in real life... Like Godzilla not collapsing under his own weight due to gravity but freely using the same gravity to topple buildings that get in his way!
Suspension of belief is needed on any fictional character that pushes scientific boundaries and or rational reasonings!
I may disagree on all the mystic type jumbo that comes with the Black Panther but as far as being undefeated as a warrior nation with advanced tech I am fully onboard... And I like my warrior kings with a genius level intellect unmatched by anyone in the Marvel universe because I'm straight greedy like that!
Think of Wakanda like an isolated cocoon that has regular metamorphisms to adapt to whatever is thrown at it accordingly... Unless of course a writer with a deconstructive agenda wants to go a different direction but I aint saying nothing! Lol
STOP THE RANGE ROVER SIR!!!
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[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;97559]Wakanda without 10,000 years is just another colony![/QUOTE]
They would have to have been colonized to be a colony.
They weren't colonized before the 10,000 years retcon so I don't see how they would be another colony.
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;96851]Are you really saying an African nation needs 10,000 years advantage? When Both Stark and Reed tech have advanced so much over 50-60 years why would T'Challa's be any different? What would make Wakanda stand above "average" African nations is T'Chaka and T'Challa and vibranium. They were the wakandan reason Wakanda stepped it up. Wakanda was fine without the 10,000 years for forty years. 10,000 years is 100 centuries worth of moving parts. It is too late to just say no, but I will make the comparison again that 10,000 years of previous advantage handed to Peter Parker or Bruce Wayne would have their fan base up in arms because it detracts from their original story and therefore the character. I am willing to live with the 10,000 years. But I want my money back on the light armor.[/QUOTE]
I think the 10 000 years has less to do with advancement and more to show Wakanda in the same light as China and Ancient Egypt being an elder civilization. Some of that i guess is a counter to misinformed racist viewpoints that say Africa is a continent of children etc... And some of it is to enhance the mystery surrounding Wakanda it would make readers ask themselves how could Wakanda stay a mystery for so long?
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Let's Review...
Wakanda is blessed with an abundance of vibranium via a meteor that hit their land... I highly doubt would be invaders would let this revelation go unnoticed!
So one day the "buck naked" natives of Wakanda decided to defend this rock from becoming "Conflict Vibranium" and thus the story is ongoing!
The more fantastic that you make the story the better that it fits within the strange world of the Marvel universe!
You have Galactus, the Celestials and Thor and them so might as well make a fictional African nation up to speed with the rest of the super powered gods floating around looking for random drama in case they accidentally showed up in Wakanda!
God forbid those Skrulls show up ahead of that 10,000 year glorious history and start something with a tribe still wearing loincloths and speaking primitive Ebonics wielding spears that for some reason can't be reloaded like automatic weaponry in the modern age!
The reason I often Make Mine Marvel is the willingness to present stories way out of the norm otherwise I could spend more time reading romance novels where a guy meets a strange girl at remote truck stop and gets hella lucky all of a sudden... Because that is more based on reality than an advanced African nation in a made-up fictional world I mean have you ever been to a truck stop before that happens all the time I swear!
!0,000 years undefeated sounds better than a couple of centuries where not one African nation is currently listed as a super power!
Since The X-men, The Avengers and The Incredible Hulk do not really exist in the real world you may as well accept that an African nation with advanced tech does!
Just close your eyes, click your ruby heel slippers together and sing along with Dorothy aka Diana Ross and believe in things not seen before...
[video=youtube_share;dslpHxTuA-w]http://youtu.be/dslpHxTuA-w[/video]