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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2265388][B]This is the issue with how Hickman ended SW, he put T'Challa back as king without any explanation to what happened and left it up to the next writer to decide what happens next. So it leads to either Shuri being put in limbo or she gets a side story for her. [/B][/QUOTE]
Hickman's ending of SW was fine as far as i'm concerned, and a damn dream for any writer. Everyone was brought back, vibranium back, opportunistic sci-fil elements to an afro-futuristic country. The only issue would be which sibling would be ruler, given the ceremonial knife bit. And that's not really even an issue one way or the other, if not for the underlining issue i spoke of: the inability for writers to have them co-habitat the same space without one of them being forced off the grid for one reason or another.
-
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2265388][B]This is the issue with how Hickman ended SW, he put T'Challa back as king without any explanation to what happened and left it up to the next writer to decide what happens next. So it leads to either Shuri being put in limbo or she gets a side story for her.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Hickman's run 100% falls apart once you look back at it.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2265397]He blew his whole wad on that one. It's been crappy ever since.[/QUOTE]
The one time where Bendis's disinterest in writing the character for a plot aligned with the character's natural disposition to not want to be a part of that said plot.
So I guess I give Bendis props for politely opening up the exit door for T'Challa to walk out of, as opposed to putting a slippery stone or banana peel for him to trip and snap his neck with.
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[QUOTE=Rumble;2265421]The one time where Bendis's disinterest in writing the character for a plot aligned with the character's natural disposition to not want to be a part of that said plot.
So I guess I give Bendis props for politely opening up the exit door for T'Challa to walk out of, as opposed to putting a slippery stone or banana peel for him to trip and snap his neck with.[/QUOTE]
Or being mind-wiped by the Illuminati prior to leaving.
Or walking into a closet instead of the exit.
-
[QUOTE=nj06;2263889]Except, you know, as BP's. I'm not trying to nit-pick. If thats how you interpret my post, so be it. Yes, the BP mythos has produced many women of color who have played significant roles within said mythos. I agree with you all 100% in that regard. But I think it would also be good if creators also showed us the women who have ruled as BP's throughout Wakanda's history.[/QUOTE]
I’m at work, so I can’t check my issues now. But I’m sure I recall a sequence during the Hudlin series (or it may have been McDuffie’s Fantastic Four) where Storm encountered the spirits of former Black Panthers and was surprised to see that one of them was a woman? Does no one else recall that?
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2264660]What is kind of interesting is that the term "boy" is 100% not interchangable with "man" and is generally used to show power over someone.[/QUOTE]
It’s also often used as a way to deflect negative behavior from males of all ages. [I]“Boys will be boys.”[/I] Implying that the particular actions in question shouldn’t be punished too severely.
And many men do still use it positively, [I]“hanging out my boys”[/I], to describe their friends, referring to a preferred sports team as [I]“my boys”[/I], etc.
But it definitely can be, and is, used as an insult more than “girl” can be.
[QUOTE=Vic Vega;2264829]Peeps here tend to conflate B.P. succeeding as the same as them personally liking the content.[/QUOTE]
Comic-book fans in general love to state their opinions as facts. If they like something, it is because it is objectively good. If they don’t like it, it is objectively bad. And if you disagree with them, you are wrong. Sales often become an easy shorthand to “prove” whichever opinion they have. The book you love is selling well? See, that’s because it’s good, just like I said. The book you hate is not selling well? See, that’s because it’s bad, just like I said. Then if the sales don’t reflect that personal opinion, suddenly it becomes irrelevant. The book you hate is selling well, or book you love is selling badly, then there are a dozen other reasons for those good or bad sales.
I recall back in the dark days of the previous CBR forums, when this thread was mostly a Hudlin hate-fest, I would see certain fans who would gleefully point to Hudlin’s falling sales every month, as proof that Marvel should get rid of him. Often they would suggest bringing back Priest, because Priest had retroactively become the greatest BP writer ever. And when I’d point out that Priest’s run was also dogged by poor sales for the entire time, which is why it was eventually canceled. Those very same fans would be like [I]“Since when do sales have any bearing on quality?!?”[/I] Talk about blatant hypocrisy.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265378]At this point, its safe to say that most of us here are, at the moment, in the minority opinion when it comes to this book. Best we can hope for is that Coates acknowledges our grievances and makes some adjustments for season 2. Beyond that, vote with the wallet.[/QUOTE]
I think it is important to note that Coates said he finished writing his first 12 issues months ago. I think he said he turned in the script for #12 back in April. I don’t know how far ahead they are on artwork, but writing-wise, it’s done. So even if, as hypothetically suggested, Marvel were to want to cut ties with him[U] right now[/U], it’s unlikely they’re going to scrap all the remaining scripts in order for a new writer to take over and finish Coates’ arc. Likewise, for people whom I’d seen earlier complaining that Coates has been ignoring their negative (but polite) opinions of the book on Twitter, well, realistically, what would you expect him to say or do? It’s not like he’s going to go [I]“Oh s**t, you’re right, my story sucks, I’d better call the editor and tell him I want to re-write the last 4 issues before they go to print!”[/I] Best you’d get is a polite [I]“Sorry you don’t care for the book.”[/I] So what’s the point?
For better or worse, this first 12-issue arc is done, and will unfold as he originally planned. The question is if he will continue after that? I don’t know when that decision will be made, and if so when he’ll start plotting out the next arc. But if the sales and acclaim remain consistent through #12, I’d say the odds of him listening to and addressing any specific complaints here are rather slim, as why disrupt a winning formula?
That'd be like Chuck Lorre calling ME to ask for advice on how to improve The Big Bang Theory. I've seen a handful of episodes over the years and think it's one of the worst series I've ever since. I can't for the life of my understand what anyone finds appealing about it. But something like 14-20 million are still watching it, so who cares what I think?
-
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2265425]Or being mind-wiped by the Illuminati prior to leaving.
[B]Or walking into a closet instead of the exit.[/B][/QUOTE]
Hahahahahahah
-
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265378]Not only are people buying it, the book is getting good reviews, and the reviews are getting better per issue.
[url]http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-books/reviews/marvel-comics/black-panther-(2016)[/url]
It would've been one thing if the book was getting bad to mediocre reviews, as it would be mean that people are def reading because Coates is writing it, ala Bendis. Instead, its the opposite.
At this point, its safe to say that most of us here are, at the moment, in the minority opinion when it comes to this book. Best we can hope for is that Coates acknowledges our grievances and makes some adjustments for season 2. Beyond that, vote with the wallet.[/QUOTE]
People are interested no doubt. The thing is we haven't seen a BP solo where he had success, not just financial success but in-story success in quite some time. His wins and feats have been trending downward for over a decade. The story itself may intrigue people but the success of T'Challa in-story has been lacking regardless of how well the title sells.
I'd rather not have a long running successful series about a punked out, watered down T'Challa living in a turmoil-of-the-week Wakanda.
-
[QUOTE=iblogalot;2265434]I’m at work, so I can’t check my issues now. But I’m sure I recall a sequence during the Hudlin series (or it may have been McDuffie’s Fantastic Four) where Storm encountered the spirits of former Black Panthers and was surprised to see that one of them was a woman? Does no one else recall that? [/QUOTE]
I mentioned it in a previous post. Here's the scan below:
[IMG]https://s11.postimg.org/4591ylzer/female_bp.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE]I think it is important to note that Coates said he finished writing his first 12 issues months ago. I think he said he turned in the script for #12 back in April. I don’t know how far ahead they are on artwork, but writing-wise, it’s done. So even if, as hypothetically suggested, Marvel were to want to cut ties with him[U] right now[/U], it’s unlikely they’re going to scrap all the remaining scripts in order for a new writer to take over and finish Coates’ arc. Likewise, for people whom I’d seen earlier complaining that Coates has been ignoring their negative (but polite) opinions of the book on Twitter, well, realistically, what would you expect him to say or do? It’s not like he’s going to go [I]“Oh s**t, you’re right, my story sucks, I’d better call the editor and tell him I want to re-write the last 4 issues before they go to print!”[/I] Best you’d get is a polite [I]“Sorry you don’t care for the book.”[/I] So what’s the point?
For better or worse, this first 12-issue arc is done, and will unfold as he originally planned. The question is if he will continue after that? I don’t know when that decision will be made, and if so when he’ll start plotting out the next arc. [/QUOTE]
Indeed, the script for this season was turned in months ago, so this season will be what it will be, regardless of our opinions. Hence me mentioning that Coates hopefully takes into account some of the grievances from fans (new and old) as he works on season 2, which he has already started doing. He currently is working on the outline of the story. If he has it his way (and with the reviews and sales, he most likely will) he will continue writing BP up to five seasons (60 issues) in total.
[QUOTE]But if the sales and acclaim remain consistent through #12, I’d say the odds of him listening to and addressing any specific complaints here are rather slim, as why disrupt a winning formula?
That'd be like Chuck Lorre calling ME to ask for advice on how to improve The Big Bang Theory. I've seen a handful of episodes over the years and think it's one of the worst series I've ever since. I can't for the life of my understand what anyone finds appealing about it. But something like 14-20 million are still watching it, so who cares what I think?[/QUOTE]
Chances that he adjusts his formula? At this point, pretty slim. The main thing he'll probably improve is the pacing and making sure T'Challa has more focus from the start, which were things both new and old fans complained about. Beyond that, its really up to him. He has the juice right now.
-
[QUOTE=iblogalot;2265434]
I think it is important to note that Coates said he finished writing his first 12 issues months ago. I think he said he turned in the script for #12 back in April. I don’t know how far ahead they are on artwork, but writing-wise, it’s done. So even if, as hypothetically suggested, Marvel were to want to cut ties with him[U] right now[/U], it’s unlikely they’re going to scrap all the remaining scripts in order for a new writer to take over and finish Coates’ arc. Likewise, for people whom I’d seen earlier complaining that Coates has been ignoring their negative (but polite) opinions of the book on Twitter, well, realistically, what would you expect him to say or do? It’s not like he’s going to go [I]“Oh s**t, you’re right, my story sucks, I’d better call the editor and tell him I want to re-write the last 4 issues before they go to print!”[/I] Best you’d get is a polite [I]“Sorry you don’t care for the book.”[/I] So what’s the point?
For better or worse, this first 12-issue arc is done, and will unfold as he originally planned. The question is if he will continue after that? I don’t know when that decision will be made, and if so when he’ll start plotting out the next arc. But if the sales and acclaim remain consistent through #12, I’d say the odds of him listening to and addressing any specific complaints here are rather slim, as why disrupt a winning formula?
[/QUOTE]
Generally, yes. But he's reworked scripts before. Remember, Ayo was supposed to die in issue #4 the first script he sent in.
And he has also adjusted his scripts when he gets art back.
Btu generally, yes. He has the second highest selling solo series at Marvel right now. He ain't gonna listen to a group of CBR peeps in a Appreciation thread lol. That is just hte reality. We got spoiled by Liss.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2265446]People are interested no doubt. The thing is we haven't seen a BP solo where he had success, not just financial success but in-story success in quite some time. His wins and feats have been trending downward for over a decade. The story itself may intrigue people but the success of T'Challa in-story has been lacking regardless of how well the title sells.
I'd rather not have a long running successful series about a punked out, watered down T'Challa living in a turmoil-of-the-week Wakanda.[/QUOTE]
I hope it turns out well in the end for T'Challa. That's pretty much all I can do at this point, at least for this season. Such a strange feeling, lol...
The "good" news is that this run has been so unpredictable, anything can happen. We're at the halfway mark now. Hopefully some major stuff goes in T'Challa's favor.
The bad news is that most of the unpredictable stuff have been very...well, let's just I really didn't like them. The camps? The meeting with the despots? We're at the halfway mark so, in theory, there could be more of such things. *shudders*
Crossing my fingers...
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2265446]People are interested no doubt. The thing is we haven't seen a BP solo where he had success, not just financial success but in-story success in quite some time. His wins and feats have been trending downward for over a decade. The story itself may intrigue people but the success of T'Challa in-story has been lacking regardless of how well the title sells.
I'd rather not have a long running successful series about a punked out, watered down T'Challa living in a turmoil-of-the-week Wakanda.[/QUOTE]
And BP selling well doesn't mean people love that BP is being punked. If Spider-man or Batman were getting punked or emasculated in every issue of their flag ship book but there were other 'strong' characters being introduced with very good art, those books would sell very well... but that doesn't mean all the new fans wouldn't prefer Batman be "Batman" or Spider-Man be funny and quippy. Or that BP be closer to T'Chadwick, since that's the BP (apart from Hickmans.. ugh) that most of these new fans are most familiar with.
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[QUOTE=iblogalot;2265434]I recall back in the dark days of the previous CBR forums, when this thread was mostly a Hudlin hate-fest, I would see certain fans who would gleefully point to Hudlin’s falling sales every month, as proof that Marvel should get rid of him. Often they would suggest bringing back Priest, because Priest had retroactively become the greatest BP writer ever. And when I’d point out that Priest’s run was also dogged by poor sales for the entire time, which is why it was eventually canceled. Those very same fans would be like [I]“Since when do sales have any bearing on quality?!?”[/I] Talk about blatant hypocrisy.[/QUOTE]
lol, good times. :cool:
-
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265496]I hope it turns out well in the end for T'Challa. That's pretty much all I can do at this point, at least for this season. Such a strange feeling, lol...
The "good" news is that this run has been so unpredictable, anything can happen. We're at the halfway mark now. Hopefully some major stuff goes in T'Challa's favor.
The bad news is that most of the unpredictable stuff have been very...well, let's just I really didn't like them. The camps? The meeting with the despots? We're at the halfway mark so, in theory, there could be more of such things. *shudders*
Crossing my fingers...[/QUOTE]
Yeah, far too many bad things have happened to T'Challa and the Wakandan people. To start out a series with more negative images and your star character looking like an unheroic tyrant doesn't endear yourself fto the fans who sat through the last 10 years.
Like Rumble said, these new fans may not even be reading the series for T'Challa at all but rather the Aneka/Ayo storyline.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2265523]Yeah, far too many bad things have happened to T'Challa and the Wakandan people. To start out a series with more negative images and your star character looking like an unheroic tyrant doesn't endear yourself fto the fans who sat through the last 10 years.
[B]Like Rumble said, these new fans may not even be reading the series for T'Challa at all but rather the Aneka/Ayo storyline.[/B][/QUOTE]
Possible, as Aneka and Ayo is building a following, but I doubt it. I think that, in addition to Coates' influence, the new readers honestly like this version of T'Challa and the story as a whole. That's the only conclusion I can come up for why the sales are as high as they are, despite everything. The MAs didn't have much of a presence in #4 and it sold very well and got positive reviews.
Coates gave everyone a heads up that the MAs presence in the main book will be reduced from #5 onward. If sales continue their high rate, it'll def confirm that the new fans are indeed into this version of T'Challa.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2265487]Btu generally, yes. He has the second highest selling solo series at Marvel right now. He ain't gonna listen to a group of CBR peeps in a Appreciation thread lol. That is just hte reality. We got spoiled by Liss.[/QUOTE]
Might as well try my luck with twitter. He did answer a question of mine before.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265470]I mentioned it in a previous post.[/QUOTE]
Good, so I’m not imagining things. So what was the context? Was this a dream sequence or something? Because if not then this is an in-canon acknowledgment that Shuri was not the first female Black Panther.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265470]He currently is working on the outline of the story. If he has it his way (and with the reviews and sales, he most likely will) he will continue writing BP up to five seasons (60 issues) in total.[/QUOTE]
I was not aware that he’d gotten that far ahead in terms of planning.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265470]The main thing he'll probably improve is the pacing and making sure T'Challa has more focus from the start, which were things both new and old fans complained about.[/QUOTE]
I just figured that’s a natural result of this particular story. It’s about a burgeoning revolution in Wakanda so, naturally, there will be a lot of extra characters introduced and involved. I wouldn’t expect this to be the case in every single story arc going forward.
Still, better than Priest and his “The Adventures of Everette K. Ross co-starring Black Panther” series. . .
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2265487]Generally, yes. But he's reworked scripts before. Remember, Ayo was supposed to die in issue #4 the first script he sent in.[/QUOTE]
Still at this point it’s 3-4 months since he finished #12, and if he’s already thinking ahead to the next arc, I think it’s safe to assume any major adjustments story-wise have been made by now.
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2265487]We got spoiled by Liss.[/QUOTE]
The Liss run was interesting. I was reviewing it for a now-defunct Comic-book site as it was being published, and I’d said that the very premise of the book (T’Challa taking Daredevil’s place in Hell Kitchen) was absurd, but if you just ignored that, and just went along with it, then the actual stories were pretty good.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265496]I hope it turns out well in the end for T'Challa. That's pretty much all I can do at this point, at least for this season.[/QUOTE]
That’s basically my approach to it. I mean, I am enjoying the book more than most here. The biggest problem I had is the “rape camps” going on in Wakanda, and T’Challa not knowing this (although Don McGregor had Wakandan teenagers smoking and dealing CRACK, back in the day, so I don’t know if that’s better or worse). But the general idea of revolutionaries stirring dissent in Wakanda and T’Challa having to find a way to counter this? Well, I like it. Yeah, he’s getting beaten a lot NOW, but it’s a 12 issue story. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong, but Coates volunteered for this book. I believe him when he says he’s a fan and this is a dream job for him. So I am assuming that it will pay off in the end. T’Challa will stand victorious. But he is suffering and will continue to suffer until then.
[QUOTE=Rumble;2265500]And BP selling well doesn't mean people love that BP is being punked.[/QUOTE]
The subjectivity in that statement is the notion that BP is being “punked.” Or “emasculated.” Those are not neutral terms. So I can’t even debate that as I personally just don’t accept that that is what is happening.
I can say that he’s being “challenged” in this book, perhaps stronger than he ever has been before (although, again Don McGregor’s run seemed to have T’Challa constantly getting the crap beaten out of him, and just barely surviving at the end, but for some reason he’s looked back on fondly. . .), and that is something that HAS happened to Spider-Man and Batman many times over the years. Is what BP going through worse than what Batman went through during Knightfall or No Man’s Land? Worse than the way Green Goblin has beaten down Spidey, or Kraven burying him alive, Doc Ock taking over his body? Worse than what Kingpin did to Daredevil during the famous Born Again arc? The hero suffering at the hands of an enemy, only to win out in the end is natural story. I believe that’s what Coates is trying to do with his run, and I am intrigued enough to stick with it until the end.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265550]Possible, as Aneka and Ayo is building a following, but I doubt it. I think that, in addition to Coates' influence, the new readers honestly like this version of T'Challa and the story as a whole. That's the only conclusion I can come up for why the sales are as high as they are, despite everything. The MAs didn't have much of a presence in #4 and it sold very well.
Coates gave everyone a heads up that the MAs presence in the main book will be reduced from #5 onward. If sales continue their high rate, it'll def confirm that the new fans are indeed into this version of T'Challa.[/QUOTE]
Which is sad to me. What is it about this T'Challa that makes him appealing? It's not like he was some unstoppable juggernaut during any of his previous runs. His feats were no more improbable than any other comparable hero so the perfect, infallible, mary-sue argument is debunked. If anything he's had far fewer feats than many heroes who have half his history or less. He was written as a complex character by Priest, a world power by Hudlin, and had his own "Born Again" storyline by Liss. Maberry had him humbled by Doom despite his so-called victory. Hickman gave us a multi-faceted emotional T'Challa. So what does this Panther bring that we haven't seen before aside from the inept, bumbling, poor strategist, ill-prepared half-hearted king that has been starring in this series?
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265496]We're at the halfway mark so, in theory, there could be more of such things. *shudders*
[/QUOTE]
You mean like...
- a lecture from Storm?
- the inevitable clash between the MA and T'challa and T'challa not only gets lectured by loses to 2 chicks with no super powers?
- lecture from the UN?
- being criticized in the Djalia?
- losing his crown or having his power neutered?
:)
:(
-
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2265616]You mean like...
- a lecture from Storm?
- the inevitable clash between the MA and T'challa and T'challa not only gets lectured by loses to 2 chicks with no super powers?
- lecture from the UN?
- being criticized in the Djalia?
- losing his crown or having his power neutered?
:)
:([/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/5KyYuIyRe1KeI/giphy.gif[/IMG]
-
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2265616]You mean like...
- a lecture from Storm?
- the inevitable clash between the MA and T'challa and T'challa not only gets lectured by loses to 2 chicks with no super powers?
- lecture from the UN?
- being criticized in the Djalia?
- losing his crown or having his power neutered?
:)
:([/QUOTE]
There's still...
Being lectured by Steve Rogers
Being more disliked than Tony Stark
Teaming up with Deadpool
Shooting a man you revere in the head, splattering his brains everywhere.
Hunting a child throughout time, killing billions so that you can save thousands.
Having a bad accent(Gambit).
Unwittingly working for Nick Fury.
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[QUOTE=Holt;2265013]It sounds like dude who voiced T'Challa in the old Avengers cartoon is doing it in Assemble too.
[video=youtube;qtHbuYnABco]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtHbuYnABco[/video]
The Man-Ape ship has sailed.[/QUOTE]
good voice actor. Yeah **** the same actor from Avengers EMH and some of the video games.
Costume is horrible tho by BP standards. It should be Black. If they want to make it look like the movie version than do that it's not hard even with that style of animaiotn.
I swear they try to make this cartoon crappy on purpose.
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[QUOTE=iblogalot;2265589]Good, so I’m not imagining things. So what was the context? Was this a dream sequence or something? Because if not then this is an in-canon acknowledgment that Shuri was not the first female Black Panther. [/QUOTE]
A dream / hallucination, if I remember correctly.
[QUOTE]I just figured that’s a natural result of this particular story. It’s about a burgeoning revolution in Wakanda so, naturally, there will be a lot of extra characters introduced and involved. I wouldn’t expect this to be the case in every single story arc going forward.
Still, better than Priest and his “The Adventures of Everette K. Ross co-starring Black Panther” series. . .[/QUOTE]
Could be a natural result of the story, but I do feel that readers would enjoy subsequent stories more if they moved at a slightly faster pace.
Coates himself said that certain scenes were too wordy (the Tetu-Changamire convo in #2, for example. I agree with him on that, 100%. That scene really dragged). As time went on, the issues flowed much better. There's a definite improvement on that front in #4 and especially #5.
[QUOTE]That’s basically my approach to it. I mean, I am enjoying the book more than most here. The biggest problem I had is the “rape camps” going on in Wakanda, and T’Challa not knowing this [B](although Don McGregor had Wakandan teenagers smoking and dealing CRACK, back in the day, so I don’t know if that’s better or worse).[/B] But the general idea of revolutionaries stirring dissent in Wakanda and T’Challa having to find a way to counter this? Well, I like it. Yeah, he’s getting beaten a lot NOW, but it’s a 12 issue story. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong, but Coates volunteered for this book. I believe him when he says he’s a fan and this is a dream job for him. So I am assuming that it will pay off in the end. T’Challa will stand victorious. But he is suffering and will continue to suffer until then. [/QUOTE]
Still can't believe the bold actually happened lol.
[QUOTE]The subjectivity in that statement is the notion that BP is being “punked.” Or “emasculated.” Those are not neutral terms. So I can’t even debate that as I personally just don’t accept that that is what is happening.
I can say that he’s being “challenged” in this book, perhaps stronger than he ever has been before (although, again Don McGregor’s run seemed to have T’Challa constantly getting the crap beaten out of him, and just barely surviving at the end, but for some reason he’s looked back on fondly. . .), and that is something that HAS happened to Spider-Man and Batman many times over the years. Is what BP going through worse than what Batman went through during Knightfall or No Man’s Land? Worse than the way Green Goblin has beaten down Spidey, or Kraven burying him alive, Doc Ock taking over his body? Worse than what Kingpin did to Daredevil during the famous Born Again arc? The hero suffering at the hands of an enemy, only to win out in the end is natural story. I believe that’s what Coates is trying to do with his run, and I am intrigued enough to stick with it until the end.[/QUOTE]
I'll say one thing about this book as far as T'Challa is concerned: him achieving "victory" will require much more than punching the opposition out. Then again, I'm not sure at all how he'll achieve said "victory" nor do I know what exactly "victory" entails within the context of the story, though I have my suspicions.
There also is still the matter of the monarchy and it's future, something Coates mentioned prior to #1. If what I think will happen to the monarchy does happen, a lot of longtime fans wouldn't take it well.
So unpredictable, this book is...
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;2264829]Yeah, but by any objective standard this IS sucess. For whatever reason peeps are
buying the book, the fact remains they ARE actually buying it.
Now maybe Coates leaves next month to go back to his day job and Marvel put Ewing on the book and Ewing gets Ewing's sales...then most of you guys would be happier but the book probably wouldn't sell anymore.
And if movie popularity/hype carried over to the comics, Winter Solder and Loki would have solos that sell. By the time Ant Man 2 comes out the comic will have been cancelled at the rate its going.
So I doubt movie hype is gonna help the comics either way (other than guranteeing a 12 issue run).
Peeps here tend to conflate B.P. suceeding as the same as them personally liking the content.
Its the same mistake the Avengers fans made during the Bendis era.
This isn't character neglect by Marvel this is the opposite.
You want to see failing?
[B]
Look at Nighthawk.[/B][/QUOTE]
What about Nighthawk?
David Walker has been incredibly generous in talking up the support his book got from Marvel.
None of this changes the fact that the book failed due to the distinct lack of direction that heralded the introduction of the Squadron Supreme into the ANAD MU.
There was a distinct disconnect between Walkers character and the Nighthawk who appears in Robinson's book.
All things considered, JMS's take on Nighthawk and the Squadron Supreme would have run roughshod over a lot more than Namor and Atlantis.
Unfortunately, they got the same milquestoast treatment T'Challa has been blighted with for the last 7 years.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2265590]Which is sad to me. What is it about this T'Challa that makes him appealing? It's not like he was some unstoppable juggernaut during any of his previous runs. His feats were no more improbable than any other comparable hero so the perfect, infallible, mary-sue argument is debunked. If anything he's had far fewer feats than many heroes who have half his history or less. He was written as a complex character by Priest, a world power by Hudlin, and had his own "Born Again" storyline by Liss. Maberry had him humbled by Doom despite his so-called victory. Hickman gave us a multi-faceted emotional T'Challa. So what does this Panther bring that we haven't seen before aside from the inept, bumbling, poor strategist, ill-prepared half-hearted king that has been starring in this series?[/QUOTE]
That's actually a good question. I've looked all over online for opinions of this run. The longtime fans who don't like the run pretty much share the overall opinion found here. New readers who don't like the book generally find it boring (pacing issues) and drop the book eventually.
New fans / unfamiliar readers who like the run def enjoy the story, for sure. As far as T'Challa is concerned (I'm paraphrasing from what I remember reading and hearing on podcasts), they like the fact that he's very introspective and seems to be feeling the weight of the crown. The "is T'Challa a king first or superhero first" debate seems to be a factor to them too.
I can understand the introspective part as we usually don't get that from T'Challa often. Priest's run was narrated by Ross, not T'Challa. Hudlin and Liss, for the most part, made T'Challa a man of action, among other things imho. You had some of the introspective stuff in the Hickman run but not to the degree we're getting now, being that Hickman wasn't writing T'Challa's solo book.
The weight of the crown thing and the king / hero debate...that's perhaps some of the many divides between the longtime and new fans. To us, it probably isn't new, but to them, it is. Hence the apparent intrigue from their perspective.
Perhaps a new fan who likes this run could further elaborate on why they like it. Would be better than the paraphrasing that I've done.
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[QUOTE=Rumble;2264961]100% in agreement. Especially the bolded. At times it feels like purposely throwing all the crabs in one barrel (i.e. t'challa's book) knowin damn well somebody will likely get stepped on for the others to elevate. With ideal/masterful writing that may not have to be the case, but from what we've seen in recent history: BP 'had' to get burned alive by Doom for Shuri to take center stage. BP 'had' to neglect to tell Shuri anything to keep her out of the 1st half of the Illuminati story, Shuri 'had' to commit noble suicide (lol) once the cat was out of the bag to keep her out of the 2nd half of the story. Now T'Challa 'has' to be this bumbling negligent emo king in order for Aneka and Ayo to feel justified in their brand of justice, while Shuri 'has' to be in suspended animation so all the blame can be put on her brother.
Of course that's not even getting into the well-documented issues that have plagued bp in general (doom, namor, storm, phyrric-ness, supporting cast, etc) but for me it has become agitating as a separate multi-faceted issue (black male emasculation + WOC negligence) in which i just have not been a fan of how they've addressed it in recent BP stuff.[/QUOTE]
Agreeing with you was never easier.
Props for the realness. :)
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265682]Could be a natural result of the story, but I do feel that readers would enjoy subsequent stories more if they moved at a slightly faster pace.[/QUOTE]
I have long been unhappy with the “decompression” style of comic-book writing. *Puts on old man hat* [I]“Back in MY day, comic-books used to tell one complete story, with a beginning, middle, and end, in each issue!”[/I]
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265682]Coates himself said that certain scenes were too wordy (the Tetu-Changamire convo in #2, for example. I agree with him on that, 100%. That scene really dragged). As time went on, the issues flowed much better. There's a definite improvement on that front in #4 and especially #5.[/QUOTE]
That’s likely a natural result of gaining experience in writing comic-books, which is not the same as other types of writing. I saw similar improvement with Reggie Hudlin over the course of his run. Right from the start, I thought his first two issues could have been one.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265682]Still can't believe the bold actually happened lol.[/QUOTE]
Not only that, McGregor was the one who introduced the character of T’Challa’s stepmother Ramonda, with the story that she had been kidnapped and held imprisoned by a White South African man for over a decade. An idea which is bad enough, but he also later had a panel where Ramonda is remembering how the man repeatedly raped her over the years, and recalled that even though she tried to hold back her feelings [B]sometimes she couldn't help but enjoy it.[/B]
That's right, she [I]liked[/I] by raped by the White South African man (sometimes). Because she was just that horny so at least she was getting some sex.
Seriously, I had not read McGregor’s work, as it was before my time. I eventually sought it out after on the recommendation of the Late Dwayne McDuffie (Peace Be Upon Him), who repeatedly talked about how great McGregor’s work was, and it was that which made HIM a fan of Black Panther. Since there were no collections I tracked down McGregor’s entire run and ordered the single issues online. All the Jungle Action books and the Marvel Comics Presents books, and the Panther’s Prey miniseries. And I read it all and was just like, this is terrible. I don’t see the appeal at all. Wakanda seemed much more backward than it had been when introduced by Lee and Kirby and, like I said, T’Challa was constantly getting beaten up within the course of the series. Even the way he wrote Monica Lynne, I didn’t see what T’Challa found so special about her.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265682]I'll say one thing about this book as far as T'Challa is concerned: him achieving "victory" will require much more than punching the opposition out.[/QUOTE]
And to me that is precisely what I find so interesting about it.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265682]Then again, I'm not sure at all how he'll achieve said "victory" nor do I know what exactly "victory" entails within the context of the story, though I have my suspicions.
There also is still the matter of the monarchy and it's future, something Coates mentioned prior to #1. If what I think will happen to the monarchy does happen, a lot of longtime fans wouldn't take it well.[/QUOTE]
I am aware of the speculation that this will be resolved with T’Challa dismantling the monarchy. I would not necessarily be happy with that either. I mean, I guess they could initiate free elections in Wakanda, and then T’Challa gets elected President, so he’s still ruling the nation but now just democratically. But I don’t see that as necessary.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265713]That's actually a good question. I've looked all over online for opinions of this run. The longtime fans who don't like the run pretty much share the overall opinion found here. New readers who don't like the book generally find it boring (pacing issues) and drop the book eventually.
New fans / unfamiliar readers who like the run def enjoy the story, for sure. As far as T'Challa is concerned (I'm paraphrasing from what I remember reading), they like the fact that he's very introspective and seems to be feeling the weight of the crown. The "is T'Challa a king first or superhero first" debate seems to be a factor to them too.
I can understand the introspective part as we usually don't get that from T'Challa often. Priest's run was narrated by Ross, not T'Challa. Hudlin and Liss made T'Challa a man of action, among other things imho. You had some of the introspective stuff in the Hickman run but not to the degree we're getting now, being that Hickman wasn't writing T'Challa's solo book.
The weight of the crown thing and the king / hero debate...that's perhaps some of the many divides between the longtime and new fans. To us, it probably isn't new, but to them, it is. Hence the apparent intrigue from their perspective.
Perhaps a new fan who likes this run could further elaborate on why they like it. Would be better than the paraphrasing that I've done.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000000"]I think Priest did quite well in giving us introspection during his run, especially when he encountered other heroes, his initial thoughts on the Avengers. Some of it may have been through the lens of Ross but we did get quite the narrative from T'Challa during [I]Sturm and Drang [/I]and [I]Enemy of the State II[/I]. The decisions he made was always weighed against his own personal desires and that of Wakanda. And while T'Challa may not have wanted to become king through the death of his father, he still wanted to be king.
[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265378]Not only are people buying it, the book is getting good reviews, and the reviews are getting better per issue.
[url]http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-books/reviews/marvel-comics/black-panther-(2016)[/url]
It would've been one thing if the book was getting bad to mediocre reviews, as it would be mean that people are def reading because Coates is writing it, ala Bendis. Instead, its the opposite.
At this point, its safe to say that most of us here are, at the moment, in the minority opinion when it comes to this book. Best we can hope for is that Coates acknowledges our grievances and makes some adjustments for season 2. Beyond that, vote with the wallet.[/QUOTE]
I guess you haven't seen Hannibal Tabu's review of Coates BP#5 then.
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One other thing I have to contend. T'Challa has rarely achieved victory by simply punching someone out. He often strategized with plan upon plan.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2265415]Hickman's run 100% falls apart once you look back at it.[/QUOTE]
Damn!
Coming from you, this is a major statement.
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[QUOTE=Rumble;2265421]The one time where Bendis's disinterest in writing the character for a plot aligned with the character's natural disposition to not want to be a part of that said plot.
So I guess I give Bendis props for politely opening up the exit door for T'Challa to walk out of, as opposed to putting a slippery stone or banana peel for him to trip and snap his neck with.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i64.tinypic.com/14lk0fs.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265550]Possible, as Aneka and Ayo is building a following, but I doubt it. I think that, in addition to Coates' influence, the new readers honestly like this version of T'Challa and the story as a whole. That's the only conclusion I can come up for why the sales are as high as they are, despite everything. The MAs didn't have much of a presence in #4 and it sold very well and got positive reviews.
Coates gave everyone a heads up that the MAs presence in the main book will be reduced from #5 onward. If sales continue their high rate, it'll def confirm that the new fans are indeed into this version of T'Challa.[/QUOTE]
[B]Which also makes me wonder this, Ae they liking this version fo t'Challa because we are getting more internal thoughts and seeing a more "Humanized" (Bleh) T'Challa? Not so much that he is getting punked because because they feel he is like a real life human dealing with very realistic issues and that is somehow relating to people? Personally i could stand this sotry more if Coates had t'Challa show more focus and determination in his actions, take the Bomber scene, it felt like a priest moment but with more communication, you felt like this was the old T'Challa we recognize a little bit, and Coates needs to capture that essence. T'Challa can struggle while still (on Panel) putting the baddies on the ropes, or showing that he is planning something. I mean lets be real how would anybody NOT see how meeting with dictators could easily bite you in the ass? Knowing full well thats who they are. So unless there is more to it (i seriously hope so) then that was just a poor writing by Coates. That and missing opportunities to have t'challa pull off some cool stuff like capturing zenzi, OR showing he has plans for these deictators and he wanst just blind sided by them[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2265752][B]Which also makes me wonder this, Ae they liking this version fo t'Challa because we are getting more internal thoughts and seeing a more "Humanized" (Bleh) T'Challa? Not so much that he is getting punked because because they feel he is like a real life human dealing with very realistic issues and that is somehow relating to people? Personally i could stand this sotry more if Coates had t'Challa show more focus and determination in his actions, take the Bomber scene, it felt like a priest moment but with more communication, you felt like this was the old T'Challa we recognize a little bit, and Coates needs to capture that essence. T'Challa can struggle while still (on Panel) putting the baddies on the ropes, or showing that he is planning something. I mean lets be real how would anybody NOT see how meeting with dictators could easily bite you in the ass? Knowing full well thats who they are. So unless there is more to it (i seriously hope so) then that was just a poor writing by Coates. That and missing opportunities to have t'challa pull off some cool stuff like capturing zenzi, OR showing he has plans for these deictators and he wanst just blind sided by them[/B][/QUOTE]
We've seen an introspective T'Challa before on many different occasions. Other than Liss, where have we seen a successful BP with a convincing triumphant victory that was well thought out? He didn't over power Kingpin, he out planned another master planner. It was a battle of wits as well as a physical battle.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2265590]Which is sad to me. What is it about this T'Challa that makes him appealing? It's not like he was some unstoppable juggernaut during any of his previous runs. His feats were no more improbable than any other comparable hero so the perfect, infallible, mary-sue argument is debunked. If anything he's had far fewer feats than many heroes who have half his history or less. He was written as a complex character by Priest, a world power by Hudlin, and had his own "Born Again" storyline by Liss. Maberry had him humbled by Doom despite his so-called victory. Hickman gave us a multi-faceted emotional T'Challa. So what does this Panther bring that we haven't seen before aside from the inept, bumbling, poor strategist, ill-prepared half-hearted king that has been starring in this series?[/QUOTE]
Well said. :smh:
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265713]That's actually a good question. I've looked all over online for opinions of this run. The longtime fans who don't like the run pretty much share the overall opinion found here. New readers who don't like the book generally find it boring (pacing issues) and drop the book eventually.
New fans / unfamiliar readers who like the run def enjoy the story, for sure. As far as T'Challa is concerned (I'm paraphrasing from what I remember reading and hearing on podcasts), they like the fact that he's very introspective and seems to be feeling the weight of the crown. The "is T'Challa a king first or superhero first" debate seems to be a factor to them too.
I can understand the introspective part as we usually don't get that from T'Challa often. Priest's run was narrated by Ross, not T'Challa. Hudlin and Liss, for the most part, made T'Challa a man of action, among other things imho. You had some of the introspective stuff in the Hickman run but not to the degree we're getting now, being that Hickman wasn't writing T'Challa's solo book.
The weight of the crown thing and the king / hero debate...that's perhaps some of the many divides between the longtime and new fans. To us, it probably isn't new, but to them, it is. Hence the apparent intrigue from their perspective.
Perhaps a new fan who likes this run could further elaborate on why they like it. Would be better than the paraphrasing that I've done.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
I really wish people would stop referring to Hickman's usage of T'Challa in the New Avengers/Secret Wars II books as a distinct BP "run" in of itself.
No one refers to Hickman's writing of Dr Strange, Stephen Rogers, Namor, Beast, Stark or Black Bolt in the aformentione NA/SS as being "runs" for any of those characters.
Jonathan Hickmman has (and hopefully will) never written a Black Panther solo book.[/SIZE]
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[QUOTE=iblogalot;2265589]
The subjectivity in that statement is the notion that BP is being “punked.” Or “emasculated.” Those are not neutral terms. So I can’t even debate that as I personally just don’t accept that that is what is happening.
I can say that he’s being “challenged” in this book, perhaps stronger than he ever has been before (although, again Don McGregor’s run seemed to have T’Challa constantly getting the crap beaten out of him, and just barely surviving at the end, but for some reason he’s looked back on fondly. . .), and that is something that HAS happened to Spider-Man and Batman many times over the years. Is what BP going through worse than what Batman went through during Knightfall or No Man’s Land? Worse than the way Green Goblin has beaten down Spidey, or Kraven burying him alive, Doc Ock taking over his body? Worse than what Kingpin did to Daredevil during the famous Born Again arc? The hero suffering at the hands of an enemy, only to win out in the end is natural story. I believe that’s what Coates is trying to do with his run, and I am intrigued enough to stick with it until the end.[/QUOTE]
Punked... emasculated... "challenged"... lol yea i don't personally debate the subjectivity or massaging of such terms either. heh. I just call it the way i see it, and keep it moving with whatever point i was conveying.
[QUOTE=Rumble;2265500] If Spider-man or Batman were getting punked or emasculated in every issue of their flag ship book but there were other 'strong' characters being introduced with very good art, those books would sell very well... but that doesn't mean all the new fans wouldn't prefer Batman be "Batman" or Spider-Man be funny and quippy. Or that BP be closer to T'Chadwick, since that's the BP (apart from Hickmans.. ugh) that most of these new fans are most familiar with.[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2265763]We've seen an introspective T'Challa before on many different occasions. Other than Liss, where have we seen a successful BP with a convincing triumphant victory that was well thought out? He didn't over power Kingpin, he out planned another master planner. It was a battle of wits as well as a physical battle.[/QUOTE]
People act like Coates is recreating the wheel with his take on T'Challa.
I find that so funny.
The only thing good about this wack ass BP book are the beautiful covers.
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/ngxcet.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2265734]I guess you haven't seen Hannibal Tabu's review of Coates BP#5 then.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I have. He hates it. Like...reaallllllly hates it. He not only went in on the Coates run in his review, but even on Facebook, which started a big debate there lol.
As the link I've posted shows, there are reviewers who don't like it, or at best they think the run is quite mediocre. I def understand both viewpoints. Hell, I agree with a lot of their points.
Overall though, both viewpoints (book is trash, book is mediocre) are in the minority at the moment. The majority of the reviewers give the run a positive mark. Some of them like it a lot. It can all change depending on the rest of the run goes though.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265781]Oh, I have. He hates it. Like...reaallllllly hates it. He not only went in on the Coates run in his review, but even on Facebook, which started a big debate there lol.
As the link I've posted shows, there are reviewers who don't like it, or at best they think the run is quite mediocre. I def understand both viewpoints. Hell, I agree with a lot of their points.
Overall though, both viewpoints (book is trash, book is mediocre) are in the minority at the moment. The majority of the reviewers give the run a positive mark. Some of them like it a lot. It can all change depending on the rest of the run goes though.[/QUOTE]
I was part of that FB debate as well. :cool:
PM me your FB so I can add you. (if you feel comfortable with that of course.)
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2265780]People act like Coates is recreating the wheel with his take on T'Challa.
I find that so funny.
The only thing good about this wack ass BP book are the beautiful covers.
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/ngxcet.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Right, McGregor did this 40 years ago. Except he didn't give us Third World Wakanda with accompanying rape camps.
I didn't like McGregor's take then and I certainly don't like what Coates is doing now.