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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;84133]I'm with you on this. I didn't like the change.[/QUOTE]
I don't dislike the change completely. But today's T'Challa is not the T'Challa I grew up with. The focus seems to have shifted to Wakanda and it's history, which does open up many story telling opportunities for a writer. I do feel that there were just as many opportunities to write T'Challa before the 10,000 year history, however. T'Challa now stands on the shoulders of Wakanda instead of the other way around. and all these years later I still have to adjust my thoughts sometimes when I am reading some of this new stuff. The 10,000 years isn't even necessary for KoD, although the exploits or stature of the previous Panthers might not be as cool.
^You do make a good point, Double 0. Although a Wakanda advancing in a world stacked up against it and succeeding is just as appealing to me.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;84195]I personally never liked that aspect. Way to "One great man" for me. The 10,000 years make Wakanda different than most African nations in fiction. It does not fall for that typical "we're a bunch of 'savages', 'terrorists', or 'victims'" bunk that's always used.
Plus, if it was T'Challa who essentially brought an "age of enlightenment", then what makes him any different than "The goddess Storm blesses these ignorant savages?"
I'd much rather have, "T'Challa is the best and brightest of a nation with a history of excellence and exceeding expectations." Sure, all powerful nations have dark histories, and that's the price Wakanda has to pay, like any other. But I'd rather have that then another Noble Savage.[/QUOTE]
I understand why Hudlin did this it really was something that comes from good intentions but now that T'challa isn't the king anymore what exactly would he be remembered for?
I would think most Wakandans would remember him as the king that always left the country to fight with outsiders.
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^I think it may also make it easier for writers to hand his accomplishments to others. Notably Stark. So far that is just in the movies. I do understand that the first part of Hudlin's run was not intended to be part of 616. Am I right in that?
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[QUOTE=Double 0;84195]I personally never liked that aspect. Way to "One great man" for me. The 10,000 years make Wakanda different than most African nations in fiction. It does not fall for that typical "we're a bunch of 'savages', 'terrorists', or 'victims'" bunk that's always used.
Plus, if it was T'Challa who essentially brought an "age of enlightenment", then what makes him any different than "The goddess Storm blesses these ignorant savages?"
I'd much rather have, "T'Challa is the best and brightest of a nation with a history of excellence and exceeding expectations." Sure, all powerful nations have dark histories, and that's the price Wakanda has to pay, like any other. But I'd rather have that then another Noble Savage.[/QUOTE]
To me Wakanda the concept/fictional nation is in service to Black Panther the character, not the other way around.
Even if Wakanda is a partial antidote/critique to the portrayal of Africans in fiction(and I'm not saying it isn't mind you),
how does that help the Black Panther character exactly?
The only point of Wakanda existing at all as far as I'm concerned to give the Black Panther a cool job and place to go to.
If aspects of it make the character less marketable they can go bye-bye.
If aspects of it make the character less interesting those can go bye-bye too.
Black Panther v. The Klan, Panther's Quest, The Client, Enemy Of the State 2 and Two the Hard Way barely took place in Wakanda at all.
So how necessary IS Wakanda to the Black Panther character, really?
The only thing I know it did for certain was help kill Reg's sales.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;84339]To me Wakanda the concept/fictional nation is in service to Black Panther the character, not the other way around.
Even if Wakanda is a partial antidote/critique to the portrayal of Africans in fiction(and I'm not saying it isn't mind you),
how does that help the Black Panther character exactly?
The only point of Wakanda existing at all as far as I'm concerned to give the Black Panther a cool job and place to go to.
If aspects of it make the character less marketable they can go bye-bye.
If aspects of it make the character less interesting those can go bye-bye too.
Black Panther v. The Klan, Panther's Quest, The Client, Enemy Of the State 2 and Two the Hard Way barely took place in Wakanda at all.
So how necessary IS Wakanda to the Black Panther character, really?
The only thing I know it did for certain was help kill Reg's sales.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I think we have a totally different idea of how Wakanda serves Black Panther as a character, since I think it serves as a way to further the fact that Black Panther, when it comes to mainstream US comics, is the face of sovereign (as in, not a part of a country of European origin) Afrocentrism; black excellence, it's potential, and the setbacks it faces. Much like Luke Cage and Falcon are the African-American working men from two different points of view. We might have to agree to disagree on this.
Because to me, it sounds like you would have been absolutely cool if Black Panther was an African American. I disagree with that; there's already a Mr. Terrific. I don't know, maybe as an African myself, I see too much value in that point of view being presented in Marvel.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;84378]Honestly, I think we have a totally different idea of how Wakanda serves Black Panther as a character, since I think it serves as a way to further the fact that Black Panther, when it comes to mainstream US comics, is the face of sovereign (as in, not a part of a country of European origin) Afrocentrism; black excellence, it's potential, and the setbacks it faces. Much like Luke Cage and Falcon are the African-American working men from two different points of view. We might have to agree to disagree on this.
Because to me, it sounds like you would have been absolutely cool if Black Panther was an African American. I disagree with that; there's already a Mr. Terrific.[/QUOTE]
I'm fine with Black Panther being ruler of Wakanda in the exact way Thor is prince of Asgard. It doesn't need to be the focus.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;84429]I'm fine with Black Panther being ruler of Wakanda in the exact way Thor is prince of Asgard. It doesn't need to be the focus.[/QUOTE]
Hmm, you know what? I'm actually fine with this.
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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;84230]I understand why Hudlin did this it really was something that comes from good intentions but now that T'challa isn't the king anymore what exactly would he be remembered for?
I would think most Wakandans would remember him as the king that always left the country to fight with outsiders.[/QUOTE]
and that would be wrong? They might also remember that he save the earth and Wakanda many times, that he was given the honour of being KOTD, that many nations recognized his greatness etc.
I have never liked the cult of the personality thing where rulers get praised to an extreme extent it is unrealistic and makes the subjects look less than intelligent. T'challa being the "enlightenment" would put him into this category of rulers. it is best with him as part of the 10 000 year tradition so Kingship is praised but no the king.
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[QUOTE=Zuri;84515]and that would be wrong? They might also remember that he save the earth and Wakanda many times, that he was given the honour of being KOTD, that many nations recognized his greatness etc.
I have never liked the cult of the personality thing where rulers get praised to an extreme extent it is unrealistic and makes the subjects look less than intelligent. T'challa being the "enlightenment" would put him into this category of rulers. it is best with him as part of the 10 000 year tradition so Kingship is praised but no the king.[/QUOTE]
And yet history is filled with enlightened rulers who changed the course of their homelands. And so that category of rulers can be subdivided. And some of those rulers deserve the praise they get and I do not see it as unrealistic. Add to that fact that T'Challa has met resistance in Wakanda previous to the 10,000 years in the form of Killmonger and M'Baku and others. Neither one works as well as a villain with the 10,000 years. Killmonger wanted what Wakanda now is (but more for himself) and M'Baku wanted to hold on to a past that, with the 10,000 years is long gone. (Not that I enjoy M'Baku as an image, but the villainous aspect he represents in forcing a return to the past is a plausible one.) Even Klaw is not the villain he was because of the 10,000 years.
I do see and can appreciate what Hudlin did for the mythos with the retcon. It is just that I am waxing nostalgic for the T'Challa I read as a boy.
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Escapism... When reading the Black Panther what does he do or what would you have him do that separates him from real life?
It seems that his mythology as a whole is all over the place while he has as of yet to reach and maintain a consistent A-list status on his own!
It seems that everything else is being built in Wakanda for ensemble casting while neglecting to update his own rogues gallery!
All of that he say she say means nothing if you do not properly flesh out the antagonists until they themselves become household names like Doom or Magneto!
The villains move the meta plot and yet Black Panther seems to be moved by Marvel events outside of his own world!
The King of The Dead sounds like a way to make Erik Killmonger better not Black Panther who has waited 18 issues to define that!
Point Man: "Erik Killmonger... King of The Dead! DUH his last name is KILLMONGER this is a no brainer... Is this thing on?"
The Reverend Achebe already has mystic ties to Mephisto so just like Spiderman battles the same villains over and over you work and tweak Black Panther's villains until you get them just right and then the movie has a plethora of stories to draw from that is already tested by trial and error!
You don't just say Hudlin and Priest failed to do something you study it over and over until you see what needs to be added and perfect it just like Frank Miller or Christopher Nolan did with Batman!
What happens when the numbers fall off either due to editorial blockage or writer fatigue that is when you are supposed to dig in like the fourth quarter of the game and make that name for yourself when it really counts!
When Black Panther loses money there is no focus group or revenue study to see why fans dropped off so instead they try another extreme, another retcon and some ridiculous road trip to Hell's Kitchen!
Black Panther seems to have not taught marvel anything because he has become a shrug your shoulders character and say oh we'll whatever we quit on to the next episode!
This is why I believe in a sequestered Manhattan Project style separate editorial office creative team isolated as much as Wakanda is to pull a James Cameron Avatar type success story!
The shared Marvel universe keeps killing this character because he does yet pay his own bills yet and relies on always having some other character doing the piggy backing at his expense!
Right now there is not a living soul that could power point presentation Black Panther in any way whatsoever to Disney executives because his mythos is too sporadic... Spiderman your blind, deaf and dumb grandma could sell that in her sleep because he is set as a plug and play character already out of the toy box!
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;84636]And yet history is filled with enlightened rulers who changed the course of their homelands. And so that category of rulers can be subdivided. And some of those rulers deserve the praise they get and I do not see it as unrealistic. Add to that fact that T'Challa has met resistance in Wakanda previous to the 10,000 years in the form of Killmonger and M'Baku and others. Neither one works as well as a villain with the 10,000 years. Killmonger wanted what Wakanda now is (but more for himself) and M'Baku wanted to hold on to a past that, with the 10,000 years is long gone. (Not that I enjoy M'Baku as an image, but the villainous aspect he represents in forcing a return to the past is a plausible one.) Even Klaw is not the villain he was because of the 10,000 years.
I do see and can appreciate what Hudlin did for the mythos with the retcon. It is just that I am waxing nostalgic for the T'Challa I read as a boy.[/QUOTE]
That's how history is written, not how history actually went. A look at modern politics would show that even back then, that figurehead had plenty of unsung heroes who helped make whatever they "achieved" happen. So yeah, it is unrealistic, as much as any ubermensch/objectivist outlook is.
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;84636]And yet history is filled with enlightened rulers who changed the course of their homelands. And so that category of rulers can be subdivided. And some of those rulers deserve the praise they get and I do not see it as unrealistic. Add to that fact that T'Challa has met resistance in Wakanda previous to the 10,000 years in the form of Killmonger and M'Baku and others. Neither one works as well as a villain with the 10,000 years. Killmonger wanted what Wakanda now is (but more for himself) and M'Baku wanted to hold on to a past that, with the 10,000 years is long gone. (Not that I enjoy M'Baku as an image, but the villainous aspect he represents in forcing a return to the past is a plausible one.) Even Klaw is not the villain he was because of the 10,000 years.
I do see and can appreciate what Hudlin did for the mythos with the retcon. It is just that I am waxing nostalgic for the T'Challa I read as a boy.[/QUOTE]
I get nostalgic like that for the old X-men when it was just professor X and the original team...
If you look at Wakanda in an African context culturally the 10 000 years works because Wakanda would be like Dahomey a kingdom of many ethnic groups and varying technological levels so Wakanda can be Advanced and for lack of a better word primitive at the same time allowing for Killmonger to try to take over for the tech and money and M'baku to want to return to a simplistic lifestyle of his ethnic group.
Klaw is not the Villian he was because he over the years he has been jobed out so much to so many heroes he is almost a different character. Many younger comics fans are surprised that he was originally not a small time villain like Shocker.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;84757]That's how history is written, not how history actually went. A look at modern politics would show that even back then, that figurehead had plenty of unsung heroes who helped make whatever they "achieved" happen. So yeah, it is unrealistic, as much as any ubermensch/objectivist outlook is.[/QUOTE]
But you have to remember, without the 10,000 years, Wakanda is not the most advanced country in the world. T'Challa, or even T'Chaka might be considered the catalyst for the enlightenment of Wakanda. I am aware there are many characters in history that only make it to the page because of the leader they helped make a mark. Although he was not a king or political leader, da Vinci's accomplishements are all his own. And these unsung heroes are who would flesh Wakanda out in the story telling if the retcon hadn't occurred. I recognized T'Challa as a king leading his country into the future that he once was. A leader needs people to lead. So in no way am I suggesting that T'Challa was the only reason Wakanda had gained the status it had. But his inspiration to those wakandans who would follow and the pushback from traditionalists is still a good story.
Klaw is not the same as he was, yes, because he was jobbed. But he is also different because what 10,000 year old society would let the old Klaw do what he did? His story had to be tweaked.
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[quote]Anyhow, it is first mentioned that we'll see three different versions of the titular villain, Ultron, which writer/director Joss Whedon has confirmed in the past. [B]"His original state is very rudimentary, but he's constantly upgrading" throughout the film. "He is coated in Vibranium and spends the film seeking out more of the raw material to continue his 'upgrades,'"[/B] reveals the source.[/quote]
If that is true from the source... I 100% expect an on panel, 100% no way to miss, reference to Wakanda and/or Black Panther.
If not... I 100% do not except to see Black Panther on screen ever. And if he is he will be so neutered I don't think I will care. Vibranium = Wakanda. Has too 100%.
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dont be suprised if that vibranium comes from the Savage Land...