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[QUOTE=Cville;3257903]But to go from highest selling comic of 2016 to barley top 100 a couple months ago with two cancelled spin-offs. That is a big shift.[/QUOTE]
The spin-offs don't really count. It's not the main book and they didn't feature T'Challa heavily. I don't think either one was intended to be more than a mini.
As for the main book, sales ebb and flow. BP books typically start high and then taper off. I imagine Legacy and the movie will put some heat on the book again. I will agree that Coates' BP is not for everyone. Regardless of his take on T'Challa, the dense, literary approach Coates brings to the book makes for a thicker read than most comics and that might translate as boring to some. But it seems like he's started to adapt more to the medium lately and streamline his writing more. We'll see what comes of that.
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[QUOTE=Prof. Warren;3257898]But has T'Challa ever been a top seller? No. It's not as though his solos have ever burned up the charts for any length of time.
You could go back and point to the sales of Priest or Hudlin or Liss's runs and also say "the sales speak for themselves."
Using sales as a bat to beat something with never works because it's always disingenuous. If something someone doesn't like is selling great, well, it's only because people don't know what they're talking about and they have terrible taste and so on and so forth. If something someone doesn't like is selling not that well or maybe not as well as they think it should, then suddenly sales are "proof" that it's terrible and everyone should agree on that.
If you don't like something, that's fine. But don't hold up sales as proof of its quality or lack thereof.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]It's only fair since people hold up high sales for it's quality which many people do so it goes both ways.
Priests Panther never had had sales but it was considered a success because he took the character back to his roots of how STan and Jack intended the character to be.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Prof. Warren;3257921]The spin-offs don't really count. It's not the main book and they didn't feature T'Challa heavily. I don't think either one was intended to be more than a mini.
As for the main book, sales ebb and flow. BP books typically start high and then taper off. I imagine Legacy and the movie will put some heat on the book again. I will agree that Coates' BP is not for everyone. Regardless of his take on T'Challa, the dense, literary approach Coates brings to the book makes for a thicker read than most comics and that might translate as boring to some. But it seems like he's started to adapt more to the medium lately and streamline his writing more. We'll see what comes of that.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]The spin-offs do count because Coates plastered Black Panther and Wakanda's name all over the covers. They were never promoted as minis and only became so because they utterly failed to catch on. Those count against Black Panther.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3257960][COLOR="#000080"]It's only fair since people hold up high sales for it's quality which many people do so it goes both ways.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
High sales don't necessarily equate to quality per say... but they are obviously they are ultimately the measure of somethings success.
Truthfully BP books under any writer never stay a top seller. At best they start high (like Coates and Hudlin) and end up roughly where the book is now. It's probably fair to say at this point the BP book hasn't established itself a massive fan base on the comics side of things YET... though hopefully that will change over time. In the least we can say the sales are fine.
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[QUOTE=Prof. Warren;3257921]The spin-offs don't really count. It's not the main book and they didn't feature T'Challa heavily. I don't think either one was intended to be more than a mini.
As for the main book, sales ebb and flow. BP books typically start high and then taper off. I imagine Legacy and the movie will put some heat on the book again. I will agree that Coates' BP is not for everyone. Regardless of his take on T'Challa, the dense, literary approach Coates brings to the book makes for a thicker read than most comics and that might translate as boring to some. But it seems like he's started to adapt more to the medium lately and streamline his writing more. We'll see what comes of that.[/QUOTE]
Mister Miracle and Enemy of the State 1&2 are "thicker" reads and they manage to be entertaining. I love how people defend Coates by saying if you don't like it, you must be too stupid to understand it.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3257969]High sales don't necessarily equate to quality per say... but they are obviously they are ultimately the measure of somethings success.
Truthfully BP books under any writer never stay a top seller. At best they start high (like Coates and Hudlin) and end up roughly where the book is now. It's probably fair to say at this point the BP book hasn't established itself a massive fan base on the comics side of things YET... though hopefully that will change over time. In the least we can say the sales are fine.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]Sure, we all want high sales for our favorite characters. But I'd rather not have success at the expense of dogging BP out for the sake of mass appeal. It doesn't last as evidenced by Coates' tenure. I'd much rather have a run like Priests that combines, characterization, quality, action and respect for the character.
I don't see that with Coates.
[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Cville;3257975]Mister Miracle and Enemy of the State 1&2 are "thicker" reads and they manage to be entertaining. I love how people defend Coates by saying if you don't like it, you must be too stupid to understand it.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]Heh. Priest's entire run reads as cerebral and his fans ate it up.
Coates' run is littered with mistake after mistake of his trying to strip away his perceived problems of BP and Wakanda.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Prof. Warren;3257921]The spin-offs don't really count. It's not the main book and they didn't feature T'Challa heavily. I don't think either one was intended to be more than a mini.
As for the main book, sales ebb and flow. BP books typically start high and then taper off. I imagine Legacy and the movie will put some heat on the book again. I will agree that Coates' BP is not for everyone. Regardless of his take on T'Challa, the dense, literary approach Coates brings to the book makes for a thicker read than most comics and that might translate as boring to some. But it seems like he's started to adapt more to the medium lately and streamline his writing more. We'll see what comes of that.[/QUOTE]
I'd hardly call it 'thicker' in many respects.
This issue has Wakanda built atop the stolen land of spider people and orcs. Though the dialogue is (amazingly) accusing towards early Wakandians, those being dispossessed are inhuman monsters, which undermines a good portion of any intended symbolism (thankfully) and sympathy.
I honestly think plenty of people 'get' what Coates' is doing, and simply don't care for it.
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[QUOTE=Cville;3257975]Mister Miracle and Enemy of the State 1&2 are "thicker" reads and they manage to be entertaining. I love how people defend Coates by saying if you don't like it, you must be too stupid to understand it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3258006][COLOR="#000080"]Heh. Priest's entire run reads as cerebral and his fans ate it up.
Coates' run is littered with mistake after mistake of his trying to strip away his perceived problems of BP and Wakanda.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Spot on! Quoted for truth.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3258006][COLOR="#000080"]Heh. Priest's entire run reads as cerebral and his fans ate it up.
Coates' run is littered with mistake after mistake of his trying to strip away his perceived problems of BP and Wakanda.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
You're right, I was just using those at examples Miracle only has 4 issues so far so there is no specific arcs to reference. lol
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3258020]I'd hardly call it 'thicker' in many respects.
This issue has Wakanda built atop the stolen land of spider people and orcs. Though the dialogue is (amazingly) accusing towards early Wakandians, those being dispossessed are inhuman monsters, which undermines a good portion of any intended symbolism (thankfully) and sympathy.
I honestly think plenty of people 'get' what Coates' is doing, and simply don't care for it.[/QUOTE]
I actually like that there isn't necessarily a clear cut good guy or bad guy in that situation.
The humans and monsters initially shared the land until the humans did something to offend them, but the monsters did attack first from what I could tell and the humans do have a right to defend themselves at that point. So I'm not sure either side can honestly claim they were innocent there as the monsters do have a legit gripe. BUt I actually think that's kind of nice, since it's typically so easy in the genre to just make the monsters the evil badguys without having any sort of perspective of their own. There's actually a bit more layers to it. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out, as I do think some degree of intended sympathy is being created for them.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3258020]I'd hardly call it 'thicker' in many respects.
This issue has Wakanda built atop the stolen land of spider people and orcs. Though the dialogue is (amazingly) accusing towards early Wakandians, those being dispossessed are inhuman monsters, which undermines a good portion of any intended symbolism (thankfully) and sympathy.
I honestly think plenty of people 'get' what Coates' is doing, and simply don't care for it.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]I seriously don't get how Coates writing is considered dense or some high-brow literary work. Like you said, people fully understand what Coates is trying to do and it's just unappealing.
The concepts that he is focusing on are considered a step backwards to many BP fans. Many want to read about Afro-futurism and scientific endeavors and Wakanda embracing a leadership role in the world. I'd hardly consider that low brow entertainment.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3258006][COLOR="#000080"]Heh. Priest's entire run reads as cerebral and his fans ate it up.
Coates' run is littered with mistake after mistake of his trying to strip away his perceived problems of BP and Wakanda.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
BP's core fan base ate it up... though the book didn't sell very well.
As good a writer as Priest is, I think you can credibly put him in the "not for everyone" category as well. It's often a think wordy somewhat difficult read.
But that's just how it is. Some writers handle comics more like a novel, some handle it more like a TV show, and some handle it more like a Saturday morning cartoon. No inherently right or wrong way to do it... though the later PROBABLY is the easiest way to appeal to the masses. But hey, whatever works.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3258049][B]BP's core fan base ate it up... though the book didn't sell very well.
As good a writer as Priest is, I think you can credibly put him in the "not for everyone" category as well. It's often a think wordy somewhat difficult read.
[/B]
But that's just how it is. Some writers handle comics more like a novel, some handle it more like a TV show, and some handle it more like a Saturday morning cartoon. No inherently right or wrong way to do it... though the later PROBABLY is the easiest way to appeal to the masses. But hey, whatever works.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]My point exactly. BP fans were fully engaged in a very intelligently written BP series that dealt with many complex issues. Did we want high sales for the book? Sure who didn't. But I'm very satisfied that we got such quality stories out of his run rather than 200 issues of some drivel that I'd rather not read.
And there is no such thing as a BP core fan base. You're either a BP fan or you're an Unfan.
[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Cville;3257975]Mister Miracle and Enemy of the State 1&2 are "thicker" reads and they manage to be entertaining. I love how people defend Coates by saying if you don't like it, you must be too stupid to understand it.[/QUOTE]
Nothing to do with being stupid. It either appeals to you or it doesn't. And people who enjoy Coates' BP certainly would call it entertaining.