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[QUOTE=XPac;3743542]Yeah, I sometimes think people don't differentiate between not liking a character and simply not shipping a character.
You can like comic Nakia just fine, yet still be against a teenage psychopath dating Black Panther. Teenage psychopaths can be fun chacacters in and of themselves... they just don't necessarily make ideal love interests for an adult protagonist, that's all.
And of course comic Nakia is an entirely different thing from movie Nakia. So that's completely apples and oranges.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. I can separate the two very well. And thank you for making this clear with a lot less words LOL.
Question for you. As a BP fan and understanding his past feats how do you think he could have defeated Adversary without seeking Ororo's help based upon previous showings such as with Mephisto and Logos? Do you think Shadow Physics could have been a viable solution with the knowledge we have of it currently?
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[url]https://www.avclub.com/the-dora-milaje-head-to-new-york-city-in-this-wakanda-f-1827047917[/url]
For some reason, Malice looks like Yzma (from [I]The Emperor's new Groove[/I]) now....
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3743551]Exactly. I can separate the two very well. And thank you for making this clear with a lot less words LOL.
Question for you. As a BP fan and understanding his past feats how do you think he could have defeated Adversary without seeking Ororo's help based upon previous showings such as with Mephisto and Logos? Do you think Shadow Physics could have been a viable solution with the knowledge we have of it currently?[/QUOTE]
Based on what we know about shadow physics, do I think that's a viable solution to the Adversary? IMO no... at least not based on what I've seen on panel. It seems to be a means of long distance teleportation, but I didn't see a whole lot of evidence in Doom War of it being any sort of functional weapon. It BARELY was a means of practical teleportation to be honest. Probably why we're seeing T'Challa largely rely on other means of teleportation at this point.
That said, because this is a comic book and we're talking about comic book science, in theory Coates could make up something if he really wanted too. Shadow physics hasn't been fleshed out too much, so there's room for Coates or whoever to make up something. But purely based on what we've seen on panel no... I can't say there's any real evidence that shadow physics is a viable weapon against Adversary, or anyone else for that matter. In a purely functional sense, Shadow physics was honestly a bit underwhelming.
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[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;3742591]OOPS I dropped something...
[video=youtube;5FuJmHL0xag]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FuJmHL0xag[/video][/QUOTE]
I'm digging this post :cool:
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Oh, and I'm not sure I buy the premise of [I]Wakanda Forever[/I], as described in the preview.
"Even though we abandoned our duty to the throne and left the Golden City with all of our secrets, we're going after Malice for... abandoning her duty and stealing secrets."
:confused:
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3743495]Shadow physics in the past has allowed him to find vibraninum on a quantum level, create weapons that could be used against vibranium, and create a unstable teleportation device. Perhaps it could have been used but I still don't believe it would have been effective against a character like Adversary because physical means cannot harm him. Shadow physics is still based upon science as it relates to alchemy which is still a physical method of matter transformation and not something of the spirit or divine. This was something Adversary kept hammering home to Forge in X-factor.
Actually, Adversary is [U][B]not[/B][/U] an omniversal menace just a universal one, and yes Coates canonized that O'roro could defeat him which explains why he feared her so many years ago during the Uncanny issue.
I never said T'challa is nothing. So because I understand a character's limits (in this case T'challa) that somehow means I am reducing him to nothing? Do you see the ridiculousness in your assertion? You claim that Coates has sullied the Wakandan mythos by having O'roro defeat adversary instead of T'challa, but even with T'challa's high end feats he didn't win it alone. With Logos, he had the help of Tiger God and with Mephisto he had help of his ancestors' souls. So why is there a double standard here that he sought the help of his ex-wife to defeat Adversary?
Goddess. Relax. Me correcting false statements about a [B][U]metal box[/U][/B] beating able to defeat Adversary, or the incorrect notion Storm was always [U][B]just a mutant[/B][/U] is not my attempt to glorify characters over T'challa. It is to correct misinformation. If you can seriously argue that a metal box can beat Adversary then you simply don't understand Adversary as a character or the capability of his power (which a lot is still very unknown about him).
And so what? You can't think of a post where I actually appreciate T'challa? Doesn't mean I don't or haven't, and I certainly have NOTHING to prove to you. I appreciate T'challa for being a strategist who can get ish done even when the odds are stacked against him. I'm not going to type on this keyboard making ridiculous claims of him being able to beat characters like the One Above All, or Roma, or other multiversal/universal threats on his own simply because it's his appreciation thread. All of his high-end showings required him using his cunning and strategic mind to win; he understood his opponent and the tools he needed to defeat them. He didn't do it all on his own. This wasn't the case with Logos, or with Mephisto and if you don't like me pointing out this truth, as I told another poster it's not my problem.
Lastly, if you don't want to talk about Storm then don't bring up her and what Coates is doing with her in the [U][B]CURRENT[/B][/U] BP books. I'm not the one crying every day, time and time again, about how Coates is the worst thing since Ebola because Storm beat Adversary instead of BP, and how he support gets more shine in his book than BP. Like seriously, you want to get on this high-horse and talk condescendingly about this being an appreciation thread but is all this moaning and groaning I see posters do here (including you) really an appreciation of the things Tchalla is doing because it doesn't sound like it to me. All in all, keep the conversation on T'challa and appreciate him if you don't want the discussion to go in direction of O'roro.
I never called T'challa a mary sue. I asked a question to a poster would him beating certain characters who are leaps and leaps beyond him in power be perceived as him being one. And he did find a way to beat Adversary. He found a way with his ex-wife's help and that of the Wakandan mystics. T'challa can do anything he wants against high-tier characters when he has certain boosts, such as the infinity gauntlet as you mentioned when he fought god Doom; however, in the case of Adversary all he had was his technology and even the mystics that he went to power were not enough to destroy or counter the Adversary's power. He therefore sought the help of someone who had a power who exceeded his own (just as he did when he went to the Tiger God for his fight against Logos) to beat Adversary. I don't see you and others getting up in arms about Tchalla needing the Tiger God's help, so why is it such a crime that he went to O'roro in this instance when he knew the power that was within her? It just seems like a huge double standard and frankly if you and others here are honest, the issue you have is that it was Ororo. That is the problem and trying to make it anything other than that is simply not factually sound.
T'challa used his knowledge that Mephisto couldn't read minds to trick him into wanting his soul, because he knew that his soul was tethered to the many Wakandan ancestors of the past. Yes it was his genius/mind that allowed him to win (he understood the limitation of Mephisto power's), but had he not had the souls of this ancestors he would not have been able to overcome Mephisto. That is fact and that is from BP issue 4 (1998). I just read it last night.
I never said I hated Nakia. In fact I liked the movie and I enjoyed Nakia very much in it. Now if we are talking about the comics and who should be with Tchalla, then I would make the argument it shouldn't be her because she tried to kill him. That said, doesn't mean I hate the character simply I don't think she is the one for Tchalla.[/QUOTE]
[B]So basically what this comes down to is that you come in here, claim to have a better understanding of Tchallas limits then actual BP enthusiast despite having a limited knowledge of his history, then try to spout that he doesn't have aby feats high enough to beat adversary, yet there have been several posters that have debunked this claim yet you continue to argue.. and yes I'm not up in arms about him using the together god because he fought the tiger god, took his power for his own and split Logos head in two. And with Mephisto it was more to it then simply overloading him with the souls of his anscestors, if you reread everything leading up to it, Tchalla out prep abd outsmarted Mephisto and stacked the deck in his favor using his own resources or in Ultimates case, forcefully taking a gods power, an actual god, and notice how at the end of Ultimates he had the tiger god in what appears to be a pokeball like sphere. But we don't know his limits apparently, so please continue to educate us on what he can or can't do:cool: [/B]
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3743588][url]https://www.avclub.com/the-dora-milaje-head-to-new-york-city-in-this-wakanda-f-1827047917[/url]
For some reason, Malice looks like Yzma (from [I]The Emperor's new Groove[/I]) now....[/QUOTE]
Looks like she got hooked on meth between the annual and now.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3743596]Based on what we know about shadow physics, do I think that's a viable solution to the Adversary? IMO no... at least not based on what I've seen on panel. It seems to be a means of long distance teleportation, but I didn't see a whole lot of evidence in Doom War of it being any sort of functional weapon. It BARELY was a means of practical teleportation to be honest. Probably why we're seeing T'Challa largely rely on other means of teleportation at this point.
That said, because this is a comic book and we're talking about comic book science, in theory Coates could make up something if he really wanted too. Shadow physics hasn't been fleshed out too much, so there's room for Coates or whoever to make up something. But purely based on what we've seen on panel no... I can't say there's any real evidence that shadow physics is a viable weapon against Adversary, or anyone else for that matter. In a purely functional sense, Shadow physics was honestly a bit underwhelming.[/QUOTE]
I agree with all your points. I think it would be cool to see it further explored the whole shadow physics thing but the reasons you pointed to is solely my reason for why I dont think it would work as it has been explained thus far. they would need to do a bit more with it to be a viable option in combat.
where do you want to see coates take BP and what upgrades if any would you like to see him get or what of his abilities that he possess would you like to see more of in the current arc?
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3743624][B]So basically what this comes down to is that you come in here, claim to have a better understanding of Tchallas limits then actual BP enthusiast despite having a limited knowledge of his history, then try to spout that he doesn't have aby feats high enough to beat adversary, yet there have been several posters that have debunked this claim yet you continue to argue.. and yes I'm not up in arms about him using the together god because he fought the tiger god, took his power for his own and split Logos head in two. And with Mephisto it was more to it then simply overloading him with the souls of his anscestors, if you reread everything leading up to it, Tchalla out prep abd outsmarted Mephisto and stacked the deck in his favor using his own resources or in Ultimates case, forcefully taking a gods power, an actual god, and notice how at the end of Ultimates he had the tiger god in what appears to be a pokeball like sphere. But we don't know his limits apparently, so please continue to educate us on what he can or can't do:cool: [/B][/QUOTE]
lets move on beloved. it's clear we disagree on what tchallas abilities and limits are. we can agree to disagree without it being contentious yes? I havent seen any points made thus far that would support tchalla being able to defeat adversary with his tech alone and I think the way coates handled the wakandans defeating adversary was very much in alignment to adversary's abilities as demonstrated in uncanny xmen and xfactor years ago.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3742993][B] Actually people did post scans about this some odd Page's ago when it was first brought up, as well as went into a detailed breakdown of how he beat Mephisto. So "lololol" it was already explained and it shows Tchallas genius in using HIS OWN RESOURCES to defeat Mephisto. This little game your trying to play is beyond old[/B][/QUOTE]
I don't know about it being a "game."
To me, it's pure trolling at this point.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3742729]you can only use feats in canon to establish the baseline of what a character could do. you cant assert things without any evidence from canon to support your theories. magneto is not an omega level mutant, tchalla beat mephisto by overwhelming him with his ancestors' souls, silver surfer is not a universal threat nor a divine creature, and tiger god and tchslla beating him is the best example of him being capable of winning against adversary, but it wasnt shown how he beat him so you cant say because he beat him he could do the same to adversary. I think with shadow physics and being king of the dead he can do awesome stuff, but to defeat adversary a character who captured roma, I'm sorry tchalla just doesnt compare with that. unless you introduce pis.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah you need to read the whole story before speaking on such things
T'Challa beat Mephisto TWICE. First on Earth and then in Mephisto's dimension (which you posted). He defeated him on Earth (by punching him once and then ripping out his heart) which meant he would have to go back to his pocket realm. T'Challa followed and challenged him in that realm specifically to cut him off as a source of power for Achebe. The point: T'Challa vs. Mephisto showed the physical, intellectual and mystical prowess of the Black Panther. IMO it also highlighted how he is a hero different from other heroes. While he is the main focus, as Black Panther he is a "WE" or in other terms, he represents the collective strength and will of his people. This is a very intriguing concept that portrays him culturally as a African hero. Since Storm is NOT his wife, she is an outsider, and her help continues this sense of USAID charity that Wakanda has been relying on as of recent.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3743633]I agree with all your points. I think it would be cool to see it further explored the whole shadow physics thing but the reasons you pointed to is solely my reason for why I dont think it would work as it has been explained thus far. they would need to do a bit more with it to be a viable option in combat.
where do you want to see coates take BP and what upgrades if any would you like to see him get or what of his abilities that he possess would you like to see more of in the current arc?[/QUOTE]
The talk about Coates giving T’Challa any kind of upgrade is pointless because he’s proven time and again that he could give **** all about this character and will keep dragging him through the mud until Marvel gives him that X-Men title he so desperately wants to write. In other words, he’s never gonna do it.
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[QUOTE=Yaw;3743661]Yeah you need to read the whole story before speaking on such things
T'Challa beat Mephisto TWICE. First on Earth and then in Mephisto's dimension (which you posted). He defeated him on Earth (by punching him once and then ripping out his heart) which meant he would have to go back to his pocket realm. T'Challa followed and challenged him in that realm specifically to cut him off as a source of power for Achebe. The point: T'Challa vs. Mephisto showed the physical, intellectual and mystical prowess of the Black Panther. IMO it also highlighted how he is a hero different from other heroes. While he is the main focus, as Black Panther he is a "WE" or in other terms, he represents the collective strength and will of his people. This is a very intriguing concept that portrays him culturally as a African hero. Since Storm is NOT his wife, she is an outsider, and her help continues this sense of USAID charity that Wakanda has been relying on as of recent.[/QUOTE]
I read issue 4 where he stabbed him but the battle wasnt done and he was transported to Mephisto realm where he would then defeat him in issue 5 with the scans I posted. in issue 4 tchalla entourage knew the frequency to cut the source of power to mephisto from his dimension as he resides in limbo/hell. by cutting him of his source of power he was then able to defeat him. This is why I argue now mephisto isnt a universal threat as his power is tied to the souls of humans who end up in his realm which is tied to earth. This issue did most definitely highlight his resourcefulness but even in defeating him on earth the job was not done. He had to go to his dimension to finish him off and defeating him there required the souls of his ancestor to win.
Against adversary that wouldnt work as he is a chaos demon who doesn't have a realm or dimension he resides over that gives him power. He thrives off chaos and disorder and it is one of the reasons Roma stated he cannot be destroyed because life relies on change and change is brought about through chaos. So where life exists, chaos aka Adversary will always be.
I respectfully disagree that Ororo is an outsider at this point especially seeing she was once queen of this nation. She is uniquely tied to wakanda that concluding she is an outsider wouldnt be accurate.
lastly you are charging that I read the stories before speaking on things but are you and others reading the stories about adversary before asserting how tchalla can defeat him? again the double standard here is mind boggling.
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[QUOTE=BlackClaw;3743674]The talk about Coates giving T’Challa any kind of upgrade is pointless because he’s proven time and again that he could give **** all about this character and will keep dragging him through the mud until Marvel gives him that X-Men title he so desperately wants to write. In other words, he’s never gonna do it.[/QUOTE]
that's where I disagree. as I mentioned previously I think posters who are ready to see coates off panther should be patient and let him continue his story. I think him putting him in space where he lost his memories is really going to push him to new heights. issue one is evidence of this with how easily he was able to fight against an alien race of warriors and patrolmen without having any knowledge of the planet.
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I just read Black Panther 1 and a little confused.it seems to start in the middle of the story was it continued from the last serers