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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1909014]Do the wakandans pray to Bast or the Panther God? And do the BPs get their powers from Bast or the Panther God? Or are Bast and the Panther God one in the same?[/QUOTE]
To be honest I thought they were practically the same thing
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[QUOTE=Maximum;1908978][b]I feel so opposite from everyone here. I'm excited about what Coates is saying about his run and I'm less and less enthused about Panther's debut in CA: CW.[/b]
I feel Coates is looking at making sensible alterations to the more troubling parts of BP's story. Nothing so far sounds off-base.
As for the movie, I don't like the idea of it being in the same ol' Marvel Cinematic style. ie: Cracking jokes when the world is near its end. It lessens the impact of what's going on to me. Coogler is the only bright spot I see ahead. My hope being that he'll be able to break away from that house style that's in all their movies.[/QUOTE]
Same here.
The comic sounds cool. "Captain America: Civil War," not so much. I mean, he's going to be a side character, so I can't get excited about that. Been there, done that. The Black Panther movie though, yeah, it's his movie, so that's where everything's going to happen.
At this point I have no plans on even seeing "Civil War," I'm just going to wait for his movie. And I too hope that his movie has it's own tone. I don't want a typical Marvel movie, because I don't like Marvel movies.
That said, they of course have every opportunity to do something different with "Black Panther." I feel that they will. I feel that they have a clue.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1908999]I think the idea is less that he's taking up a more westernized view but rather a more modernized one. Most cultures started off as nations of warriors and kings before evolving into something with greater representation, because it's just human nature that people would want to have some degree of say in how they are governed. There are reasons a monarchy is considered an out-dated model of government.
That said, I don't believe they'll get rid of the monarchy. I think marvel still wants T'Challa to go around sitting on a throne and calling himself a king. I think Coates just wants to add some realism to Wakanda, to help the perception that it's the most advanced nation on the planet.[/QUOTE]
That reason is most real world Monarchs end up being corrupt and abusive.
T'challa and the Black Panthers are not and their form of government is working quite well. Better than every other form in Marvel comics so why modernize something that works in that setting to make it fit this real world model?
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;1909008]
How is that supposed to play with a prospective female readership?[/QUOTE]
IDK, any females around anymore?
And I never said there weren't some weird ass implications to the Doras. In fact, all the stuff you initially outlined I said was weird AF. It has been undercover upgraded to be not nearly as creepy as before, the kid stuff and wives to be stuff hasn't been utterred in years. T'challa updating them should be a plus for T'challa and how progressive he is compared to his ancestors.
My issue with what some of the stuff Coates is hinting at (and let me be clear, I am well aware I am taking snippets of comments and blowing them likely out of proportion) is that he is tearing into BP's mythos to the point that what is left will feel like BP-lite. I just feel like this is gonna turn into a 11 issue arc of "everythig wrong with Wakanda and BP" instead of 11 issues of "why T'challa is awesome."
But, like I said, I know I'm turning "chance of rain" into "OMG MONSOON IS HERE!" just because some grey clouds rolled in.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1909000]That doesn't fit though with T'challa being King again when he re-meets the redshirt Wakanda kids. The preview said he took the crown after Shuri died... but if all that stuff still happened post reality change, then Tchalla woulda been king already, not shuri[/QUOTE]
I don't think he was King then. He was still King of the Dead and talked about the Kids grandfather being proud of him. Everything still happened except the incursions. T'challa going to hells Kitchen and all. So Shuri was Queen. But things happened differently and Thanos or one of his generals killed Shuri during the invasion
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1909000]That doesn't fit though with T'challa being King again when he re-meets the redshirt Wakanda kids. The preview said he took the crown after Shuri died... but if all that stuff still happened post reality change, then Tchalla woulda been king already, not shuri[/QUOTE]
Possibility Shuri died during Namor's flooding?
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[QUOTE=robreedwrites;1908931]From Coates' [URL="https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates"]Twitter[/URL]:[/QUOTE]
Coates' answers on this issue confuse me quite a bit.
T'Challa isn't some random dude, he's the King of the nation. It's a big deal in any country to protect the head of state.
Also, the ruler of Wakanda can be a woman as well, as Shuri as shown, so it isn't as if it has to be a bodyguard group exclusively for a male.
Lastly, I would def understand if the Doras of today were exactly like the Doras of the Priest run. I myself was not the biggest fan of the original age of the Doras and the wives-in-training thing. But the troubling elements of the Doras have been either been dropped / left alone / became non-factors for over 10 years. A few of us didn't even remember the last time those elements were brought up. So for him to bring them up now is very confusing.
Again, it's not a deal breaker, but its rather strange.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1909031]IDK, any females around anymore? [/QUOTE]
Hopefully the readership turns out bigger than just the people posting in this thread.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1909009]The Thanos invasion happened again? when? I haven't seen it mentioned in other books.
Last we see Thanos, he was somewhere in space, far, far away, by himself.
And T'Challa was already King at the end of SW. When the Wakandan youth address him as King, he doesn't correct them this time around, he simply says "yes."[/QUOTE]
Many of the wakandan's still called him King anyway when Shuri ruled lol He could have been yesing as King of the Dead.
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[QUOTE=Holt;1909022]Black Panther is bad about it but he has nowhere near the level of fuckery Wonder Woman's cast has.[/QUOTE]
WW at least has Steve Trevor and her immediate family (I think)
(and standard weaponry lol).
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[QUOTE=XPac;1909013]I don't think this honestly waters down or effects T'Challa all that much either way. Whether Wakandans have some sort of democratically elected ruling council or not really doesn't effect T'Challa's ability to punch out bad guys. To him it's more background stuff.[/QUOTE]
We don't want T'challa to just punch out badguys. We have a million superhero's that do that. It greatly waters him down to strip away Wakanda's traditions and uniqueness
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[QUOTE=Ekie;1909033]I don't think he was King then. He was still King of the Dead and talked about the Kids grandfather being proud of him. Everything still happened except the incursions. T'challa going to hells Kitchen and all. So Shuri was Queen. But things happened differently and Thanos or one of his generals killed Shuri during the invasion[/QUOTE]
go read NA #1 and then SW #9
NA #1, they address him as king and he corrects them
SW #9, they address him as king and he says Yes
That was purposefully changed
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Guess I'm one of the few people that is in a relaxed state at the moment.
I wil just hold my reservation for the next four issues and then I will know the direction Coates is taking but until then, I will just go with the flow
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[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1909035]Possibility Shuri died during Namor's flooding?[/QUOTE]
Preview specifically said Thano's invasion
[QUOTE=Holt;1909038]Hopefully the readership turns out bigger than just the people posting in this thread.[/QUOTE]
Realistically, people in this thread are the old guard that couldn't keep BP solos afloat anyway
We are irrelevant lol
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1909042]WW at least has Steve Trevor and her immediate family (I think)
(and standard weaponry lol).[/QUOTE]
She does but it's like a running joke among her fans that Diana is the worst friend in the world because whenever a new writer takes over, she suddenly gets a brand new supporting cast and never mentions the people she used to chill with.
T'Challa has the same problem but it's probably not as noticeable because Marvel hasn't given him that many solo books.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1909031]IDK, any females around anymore?
.[/QUOTE]
Yes only one regular poster here is female
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[QUOTE=t hedge coke;1908992]In my head, that's a recent thing. I may be wrong. It's not like I haven't forgotten stuff before. But, it seems like it's been traditionally, "the Panther God."
Of course, Daimon Hellstrom used to be "The Son of Satan," before he was the Son of Satannish, wait no, the Son of Marduk, no no, sorry, the Son of Dormammu.
All them gods are frauds or fools if you want them to be.[/QUOTE]
The earliest you could find it might be Priest, who was going with a sort of Kemetic/All African Pantheons thing when he did the first Moon Knight/Panther dream thing. That sort of led the transition towards Bast, which IMO was typical lazy comic book writing. The amount of usage Egyptian mythology manages to get is astounding to me, and unjustified considering how poorly it gets used. Hawkman, Doctor Fate, Black Panther, Shazam, the list goes on and on.
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[QUOTE=Ekie;1909033]I don't think he was King then. He was still King of the Dead and talked about the Kids grandfather being proud of him. Everything still happened except the incursions. T'challa going to hells Kitchen and all. So Shuri was Queen. But things happened differently and Thanos or one of his generals killed Shuri during the invasion[/QUOTE]
By that logic, Atlantis should've been destroyed by Wakandan forces. Yet, it was still there after the 8-month gap in Squadron Supreme.
And concerning T'Challa, here's the original conversation in New Avengers #1. They address him as King and he corrects them, saying that they aren't in the necropolis.
[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wZQ_3GbxmV4/UsgNsYly8zI/AAAAAAABdDg/3WfqgDzZ6EU/s1600/-005+copy.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-I882q1z2frc/UsgNsga2p9I/AAAAAAABdDc/-WMN5vGw700/s1600/-006+copy.jpg[/IMG]
Now the same scene, but at the end of Secret Wars. He doesn't correct them and acknowledges the title.
[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Zh50MOlZDE8/VpYgWh_DjLI/AAAAAAAAISg/hZ4H99K8q6U/s1600/04_24.jpg[/IMG]
T'Challa is King at the end of Secret War.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1909013]I don't think this honestly waters down or effects T'Challa all that much either way. Whether Wakandans have some sort of democratically elected ruling council or not really doesn't effect T'Challa's ability to punch out bad guys. To him it's more background stuff.[/QUOTE]
The Black Panther title was supposed to mean more than that though.
Strip the crown and other unique things about T'challa away and he really does just become MU Batman
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;1909053]Guess I'm one of the few people that is in a relaxed state at the moment.
I wil just hold my reservation for the next four issues and then I will know the direction Coates is taking but until then, I will just go with the flow[/QUOTE]
That's where I'm at right now.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1909014]Do the wakandans pray to Bast or the Panther God? And do the BPs get their powers from Bast or the Panther God? Or are Bast and the Panther God one in the same?[/QUOTE]
It was just the Panther God until Priest's run.
That was when it got named as Bast by Priest. His run is also the first time we ever hear him speak.
Prior to that you had the McGregor run which relied on a pseudo-sciencey explaination for how the heart shaped herb worked. TPG didn't have anythig directly to do with it. Black Panther's powers stemed from comic book science and not comic book mysticism.
Eben Priest gave pseudo-sciencey explaination on why it only worked for T'Challa's family line (anybody else not of royal blood would die of an severe allegic reaction) or put simply: the game was rigged. Hudlin changed that to herb eaters being spritually judged by BAST/TPG since that seemed fairer than getting laid low by a chemical reaction.
Really the idea that B.P. powers came from anywhere but the heart shaped herb was Hudlin's.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;1909067]
Really the idea that B.P. powers came from anywhere but the heart shaped herb was Hudlin's.[/QUOTE]
And it was a great idea.
Going before Bast to be judged >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allergic reaction magic herb
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[QUOTE=Ekie;1908974]That guy really just schooled Coates. I think Coates is taking much too realistic a view on comics. Too many whys in a world where half the heros can fly because "reasons". The Dora's are cool. Black amazons that protect the king. They aren't the only fighting force the throne has so it's ok. It's just tradition. If his goal is to remove tradition for a more westernized palate then that's a major issue for a character like Black Panther who is supposed to not bend to such a thing as that's what makes him unique. I can tell there will be some form of democracy by the end of this run in Wakanda which is fine and dandy for the US but not for a nation of warriors and kings in comics. It's like asking why men aren't on the amazonion isle of Wonder Woman and just adding some because it makes real world sense.
[B]As for Shuri,
The preview states that T'challa (even though going back before the incursions couldn't stop everything. The Flood still happened (at which point Shuri was queen), T'challa was still KOTD as shown when talking to the kids, and The Thanos invasion still happened at which point Shuri was still killed. So it wasn't an "I'm going back in time and erasing Shuri thing from T'challa's standpoint. She was alive and well during the time hop and was just killed in the Thanos invasion.[/B][/QUOTE]
[B]I guess i was viewing it as, him mentioning what had happened to Wakanda as of late, because how would that makes sense that Shuri died during the Thanos invasion when Time was recent back to NA? Actually thinking about it more that cant be what had happened because Thanos isn't even here, as we saw in Ultimates he was trapped in an abscene of nothing zone outside of everything, so how can shuri die to Thanos army when he isn't there and his army has no reason to move without him, they have no reason to target Wakanda. I don't think the preview was stating Shuri is dead now but more so giving people a little back story that had happened recently in the comics so people are maybe a little more up to speed. But when i read it, nothing went off thinking that she is still gone. I think people remember the events still because the intention wasn't so that it was a fresh start, it was suppose to be brought up again[/B]
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;1909053]Guess I'm one of the few people that is in a relaxed state at the moment.
I wil just hold my reservation for the next four issues and then I will know the direction Coates is taking but until then, I will just go with the flow[/QUOTE]
Nah, I'm the same. While I wasn't expecting Shuri's death, nothing else has really jumped out at me as a red flag. Regardless, we'll know next week.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1909062]By that logic, Atlantis should've been destroyed by Wakandan forces. Yet, it was still there after the 8-month gap in Squadron Supreme.
And concerning T'Challa, here's the original conversation in New Avengers #1. They address him as King and he corrects them, saying that they aren't in the necropolis.
[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wZQ_3GbxmV4/UsgNsYly8zI/AAAAAAABdDg/3WfqgDzZ6EU/s1600/-005+copy.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-I882q1z2frc/UsgNsga2p9I/AAAAAAABdDc/-WMN5vGw700/s1600/-006+copy.jpg[/IMG]
Now the same scene, but at the end of Secret Wars. He doesn't correct them and acknowledges the title.
[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Zh50MOlZDE8/VpYgWh_DjLI/AAAAAAAAISg/hZ4H99K8q6U/s1600/04_24.jpg[/IMG]
T'Challa is King at the end of Secret War.[/QUOTE]
Well he's also King of the Dead still. so I don't know what to tell you lol. Maybe the Thanos invasion came earlier than that point in time this time around and Shuri died, or Maybe T'challa didn't realise Shuri was alive since he had JUST awoken seconds earlier in that scene then. Who knows. My point is that Shuri was still queen at some point and T'challa didn't have a say in her living or dying. Time travel's hard yo
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1909074][B]I guess i was viewing it as, him mentioning what had happened to Wakanda as of late, because how would that makes sense that Shuri died during the Thanos invasion when Time was recent back to NA? Actually thinking about it more that cant be what had happened because Thanos isn't even here, as we saw in Ultimates he was trapped in an abscene of nothing zone outside of everything, so how can shuri die to Thanos army when he isn't there and his army has no reason to move without him, they have no reason to target Wakanda. I don't think the preview was stating Shuri is dead now but more so giving people a little back story that had happened recently in the comics so people are maybe a little more up to speed. But when i read it, nothing went off thinking that she is still gone. I think people remember the events still because the intention wasn't so that it was a fresh start, it was suppose to be brought up again[/B][/QUOTE]
Hopefully.
Good point on the Thanos thing.
Man, could Marvel have come up with a more confusing way to bring everything back lol?
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[QUOTE=Ekie;1909057]Yes only one regular poster here is female[/QUOTE]
?
In this thread, you mean?
(Though, there do seem to be more women regularly lurking and reading without posting, than posting regularly, for sure.)
For the record, I don't think the guy schooled anyone. Even the argument presented was pretty, "I don't have a problem," and nothing more. Coates seemed to express himself well, and to have thought through his reasoning and angles, pretty well.
People flying in the world, doesn't make teenage bride-in-training bodyguards who everyone from Ross to Storm question the propriety of or comment on the awkwardness of the situation any less, well, questionable. In or out of their hot-girls-in-an-80s-music-video dresses.
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[QUOTE=t hedge coke;1909081]?
In this thread, you mean?
(Though, there do seem to be more women regularly lurking and reading without posting, than posting regularly, for sure.)
For the record, I don't think the guy schooled anyone. Even the argument presented was pretty, "I don't have a problem," and nothing more. Coates seemed to express himself well, and to have thought through his reasoning and angles, pretty well.[/QUOTE]
Yes, Bunai is a poster here (usually cute pictures of something panther related), but she's the only female nowadays
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[QUOTE=Ekie;1909090]Yes, Bunai is a poster here (usually cute pictures of something panther related), but she's the only female nowadays[/QUOTE]
I wonder if that reflects total Panther appeal.
Of course, the movie's going to expand that hugely.
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[QUOTE=Holt;1909038]Hopefully the readership turns out bigger than just the people posting in this thread.[/QUOTE]
If I were to judge by female posters that USED to be here and elsewhere (a very dangerous thing to do imo), I'd [B]guess[/B] that a lot of them lost interest when the Storm/BP marriage got busted up. They didn't just go back to the Xbooks either. They just went "Screw it, I'm out."
It's not like that contingent cared about Shuri one way or the other.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1909074][B] I don't think the preview was stating Shuri is dead now but more so giving people a little back story that had happened recently in the comics so people are maybe a little more up to speed. But when i read it, nothing went off thinking that she is still gone. I think people remember the events still because the intention wasn't so that it was a fresh start, it was suppose to be brought up again[/B][/QUOTE]
That could be the case as well. We'll find out soon.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;1909100]If I were to judge by female posters that USED to be here and elsewhere (a very dangerous thing to do imo), I'd [B]guess[/B] that a lot of them lost interest when the Storm/BP marriage got busted up. They didn't just go back to the Xbooks either. They just went "Screw it, I'm out."
[B]
It's not like that contingent cared about Shuri one way or the other.[/B][/QUOTE]
Barely anyone care much about Shuri at that time. I myself didn't care much about Shuri back then.
But times have changed. She's a more viable character now.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1909133]Barely anyone care much about Shuri at that time, myself included.
But times have changed. She's a more viable character now.[/QUOTE]
People keep saying that and I don't see it.
She doesn't have the fun/quirky/likable characteristic that sold female readers on Ms. Marvel, Nu52 Batgirl or Harley Quinn.
Now if Shuri had Queen Divine Justice personality, I could see it.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;1909146]People keep saying that and I don't see it.
She doesn't have the fun/quirky/likable characteristic that sold female readers on Ms. Marvel, Nu52 Batgirl or Harley Quinn.[/quote]
She is more viable as a SUPPORTING character.
She isn't viable at all as a "main" but she is (was?? lol) a very, very good supporting character IMO[quote]
Now if Shuri had [B]Queen Divine Justic[/B]e personality, I could see it.[/QUOTE]
[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/BCLRd79QV2Ois/giphy.gif[/img]
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[QUOTE=Holt;1909078]Nah, I'm the same. While I wasn't expecting Shuri's death, nothing else has really jumped out at me as a red flag. Regardless, we'll know next week.[/QUOTE]
No red flags at all for me... just yellow flag comments that all seemed to come out instantly and compound on each other a bit.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1909121]That could be the case as well. We'll find out soon.[/QUOTE]
[B]I mean think about, Why would Thanos army sans Thanos attack Wakanda again? For all we know the Black order could of had the same fate as Thanos being put into a abscence of everything zone to rot. Before Shuri died, she named T'Challa king again, so thinking about it now, its not too weird that when he reset the MU (and everyone in Wakanda remembers the incursions) stating himself as king wouldn't be an odd statement. I dont think Shuri is dead, and if she is, which would suck by the way, its not because of Thanos but would have to be another reason.
I think the most recent articles and tweets just have people a little on edge is all.
Though i do want to say that in regards to the Tweets, DM are not that odd because its not like there isn't a Wakanda Military which is Coed and the is the HZ which is an all male secret police. the different military departments aren't that weird at all, when Shuri was Queen, she had both Dora's and Hatute in her entourage so focusing only on the Doras and having an issue (which the main points that weren't that great havent been a thing for 10 years) is odd [/B]
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Speaking of QDJ, who are some Bp supporting characters in limbo you'd eventually like to see back?
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A quick thought on the Dora Milaje...
This [url=https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/715884832467849216]tweet[/url] from Coates...[QUOTE]Rozay Canseco: Wasn't the concept to keep the peace among all the tribes of Wakanda, the guards are from all different tribes.
Ta-Nehisi Coates: But like what's up with that? Why only girls? why as body-guards? Is this a security issue. Or is it something else.[/QUOTE]
It is kind of a weird thing when you think about it... it's like, yeah, why only girls?
The Dora Milaje are a cool visual, I guess. But beyond that is it kind of weird.
(I guess they may have been Priest's freaky side coming out or something, I don't know... ;))
Anyway, throwing that in with the main thrust of the arc (Coates': "Wakanda's the most advanced country in the world, with a really educated population. Why would they even accept a monarchy?"), adding in the uprising in Wakanda from The People. And bringing it back around to "But instead of cutting them (the Dora Milaje) out, Mr. Coates positions them as perhaps the embattled Wakanda's last, best hope for salvation."
So we have all this turmoil from The People and everything else, and the Dora Milaje, the one's who get the sideways looks from everyone else in the world, may turn out to be the one's who hold everything together. And then what happens next? Do they want their "freedom" too? Do they want justice?
#DoraMilajeLivesMatter
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[QUOTE=Holt;1909188]Speaking of QDJ, who are some Bp supporting characters in limbo you'd eventually like to see back?[/QUOTE]
White Wolf
Achebe
Taku
Madame Slay (but a bit modernised)
Killmonger
N'Gassi but I guess Changamire is a replacement
Dead Characters
W'kabi
Zuri
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;1909146]People keep saying that and I don't see it.
[B]She doesn't have the fun/quirky/likable characteristic that sold female readers on Ms. Marvel, Nu52 Batgirl or Harley Quinn.[/B]
Now if Shuri had Queen Divine Justice personality, I could see it.[/QUOTE]
That's actually one thing I like about Shuri: she doesn't fit the mold of a fun/quirky female character. That she isn't necessarily the most likeable character makes sense to me, as it appears she doesn't seem to care to be liked by those who aren't her family or her people (helps contrast her with T'Challa, who is the more likeable and diplomatic of the two). The reader accepts her for who she is or doesn't. I find that cool.
I liked QDJ much, much faster than I ended up liking Shuri. However, I have much more admiration for Shuri's character, considering what she represents.
In any case, if you don't like her, that's cool. We all have our opinions.