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[QUOTE=C_haos;3111249]If everything was undone at the end, nobody is to blame I would think. I stopped following SE midway through[/QUOTE]
Everything was undone at the end of Secret Wars too. Some Wakandans still blamed T'Challa.
Las Vegas is still damaged at the end of Secret Empire. Kobik didn't undo that and HydraCap is still alive.
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[QUOTE=C_haos;3111249]If everything was undone at the end, nobody is to blame I would think. I stopped following SE midway through[/QUOTE]
I don't think there's a whole lot of fault you lay on T'Challa for SE.
I suppose if someone REALLY wanted to point fingers, they could argue had T'Challa given the cube fragment to Stark and the other heroes, Wakanda would have been left alone.
But really, he was just trying to protect the cube fragment. Yes Wakanda took a hit there, but in the bigger picture what he did made sense. No one, Wakanda included, benefits from Hydra getting the cube.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3111093]Steve failed to invade Wakanda two times in a row prior to him finally suceedind, with T'Challa verbally puking him in front of the whole UN in the process.
And Steve needed all the fragments to advance the story ... that was end game. Steve had to beat them eventually. The fact that Steve lost two out of three occasions still gives Wakanda it's props while giving Hydra the win it needed at this point in the story.[/QUOTE]
Cap didn't need all the fragments to advance the story, not really. Him trying to go through with his agenda with a malfunctioning Macguffin could have easily provided the escalation needed for the climax, plus demonstrate how he's falling off his rocker.
My biggest problem is how Spencer got the fragment back, by basically replaying the same damn trick they used with Shield. That's some amazing lack of creativity there.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3111187][B] Nah it still would of failed Because it was an extremely niche book, featuring a cast that was mostly arleady being used in another title and being used better and the book itself had a boring premise and the main draw (Tchalla)
was sidelined for Characters with far inferior Star power.. His disdain for Tchalla is extremely obvious [/B][/QUOTE]
The book still not the lowest selling niche book. Eden Misty and Storm aren't being used anywhere else better
[QUOTE=Cville;3111156]Gotta pay for the people Coates brings with him. Might have lasted longer if they used writers already on payroll.[/QUOTE]
Idk Harvey rotated issues and I would think guest writers especially first time wouldn't cost that much
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[QUOTE=XPac;3111243]Some writers chose to roe into the event, and some didn't. That's just how it is.
I do agree there's potential stories to tell from tying into events. But I also don't think writers necessarily should have their own books being hijacked telling someone else's story.
There's no right or wrong answer here. If a book wants to toe into events cool. If a book prefers to do its own thing, that's cool too.[/QUOTE]
[B]Yes abd if these claims people love to make of Coates making Tchalla a Major like everyone claims he would of tied in. Plain and simple[/B]
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3111283]Cap didn't need all the fragments to advance the story, not really. Him trying to go through with his agenda with a malfunctioning Macguffin could have easily provided the escalation needed for the climax, plus demonstrate how he's falling off his rocker.
My biggest problem is how Spencer got the fragment back, by basically replaying the same damn trick they used with Shield. That's some amazing lack of creativity there.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. For big stories you always at SOME point have to create the illusion that the villain will win (even though we all know they won't ). It hurts the finale if the villain can't get to that point. And for this story winning meant the cube fragments.
It was fine for Wakanda to get some early wins over Hydra, but eventually they needed to get to the point where the badges looked like they were going to win.
As for the WAY it was done ... I'd like to think it was done in a way to show that Wakanda couldn't be beaten through sheer force alone. It it was the same tactic used against SHIELD, but the method he used apparently was different. So it's not necessarily something T'Challa could be prepared for.
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[QUOTE=C_haos;3111289]The book still not the lowest selling niche book. Eden Misty and Storm aren't being used anywhere else better
Idk Harvey rotated issues and I would think guest writers especially first time wouldn't cost that much[/QUOTE]
[B]It was still a poorly made niche[/B]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3111369]I disagree. For big stories you always at SOME point have to create the illusion that the villain will win (even though we all know they won't ). It hurts the finale if the villain can't get to that point. And for this story winning meant the cube fragments.
It was fine for Wakanda to get some early wins over Hydra, but eventually they needed to get to the point where the badges looked like they were going to win.
As for the WAY it was done ... I'd like to think it was done in a way to show that Wakanda couldn't be beaten through sheer force alone. It it was the same tactic used against SHIELD, but the method he used apparently was different. So it's not necessarily something T'Challa could be prepared for.[/QUOTE]
Creating the illusion of victory is fine, but there's no reason why you can't tease the destruction of everything instead. Mix it up a little.
And when you get down to brass tacs, what Faustis did was pretty much the exact same thing as was done to Shield. Putting a few lines of dialogue in that say say "Oh, we tried the spicy recipe, not original blend" isn't enough. There were ways to get the fragment without making Wakanda look like a chump.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3111369]I disagree. For big stories you always at SOME point have to create the illusion that the villain will win (even though we all know they won't ). It hurts the finale if the villain can't get to that point. And for this story winning meant the cube fragments.
It was fine for Wakanda to get some early wins over Hydra, but eventually they needed to get to the point where the badges looked like they were going to win.
As for the WAY it was done ... I'd like to think it was done in a way to show that Wakanda couldn't be beaten through sheer force alone. It it was the same tactic used against SHIELD, but the method he used apparently was different. So it's not necessarily something T'Challa could be prepared for.[/QUOTE]
[B]Right, Tchalla who had been trained since birth to face the unknown, is fooled and catch off guard by mind control. Something the World of superheros has an abundance of... No way to prepare for that.
If I'm about to get into a Fight with a guy that's twice my size and has a strength advantage over me, obviously my tactic wouldn't be to get into a slugfest with them. It would be a different tactic to expose their weakness. That doesn't make the bigger guy look impressive because it looked like he was winning. It all matters about the end result and that end result was that Zlister Faustus, single handily neutralized the entire Wakandan army. In one motion he did what the super skrulls failed to do and took 3 tries and the full force of Thanos to do. So no, it's not a good showing for Wakanda at all. It's just a further knock on a once dangerous place you don't **** with, to now be reduced to easily taken over or brought to their knees by everyone[/B]
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[QUčOTE=Ezyo1000;3111455][B]Right, Tchalla who had been trained since birth to face the unknown, is fooled and catch off guard by mind control. Something the World of superheros has an abundance of... No way to prepare for that.[/B][/QUOTE]
Since this apparently was a new method of mind control yeah ... there might not have been a way to prepare for that. It's tough to prepare for something when you don't necessarily know what it is or how it works.
Whether or not the same trick would work a second time is a different matter.
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[B] Again trained since birth to face the unknown. Hardly an excuse and being single handily defeated by Faustus IS chumping Wakanda[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3111558][B] Again trained since birth to face the unknown. Hardly an excuse and being single handily defeated by Faustus IS chumping Wakanda[/B][/QUOTE]
Being trained from birth to fave the unknown doesn't mean he knows everything. As good as T'Challa is, sometimes he'll lose . No one is perfect. More to the point sometimes badges do win a round or two. Stories NEED that to happen from time to time. A lot if people lost to Hydra in this event. I think it's to Wakanda's credit that it did better than most.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3111464][QUčOTE=Ezyo1000;3111455][B]Right, Tchalla who had been trained since birth to face the unknown, is fooled and catch off guard by mind control. Something the World of superheros has an abundance of... No way to prepare for that.[/B][/QUOTE]
Since this apparently was a new method of mind control yeah ... there might not have been a way to prepare for that. It's tough to prepare for something when you don't necessarily know what it is or how it works.
Whether or not the same trick would work a second time is a different matter.[/QUOTE]
A few lines of dialogue does not a new trick make.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3111566]Being trained from birth to fave the unknown doesn't mean he knows everything. As good as T'Challa is, sometimes he'll lose . No one is perfect. More to the point sometimes badges do win a round or two. Stories NEED that to happen from time to time. A lot if people lost to Hydra in this event. I think it's to Wakanda's credit that it did better than most.[/QUOTE]
[B]Yes it doesn't mean he knows everything, but given the abundance of telepaths in the mu and they just faced a threat that manipulated emotions, you would think you would have defense's in place for telepaths, ESPECIALLY something you have faced before. Again you keep trying to say to their credit they beat Hydra off panel but that PALES in comparison to THE ENTIRE WAKANDAN ARMY being singlehandedly defeated by Faustus.. a Z list nobody.[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3111681][B]Yes it doesn't mean he knows everything, but given the abundance of telepaths in the mu and they just faced a threat that manipulated emotions, you would think you would have defense's in place for telepaths, ESPECIALLY something you have faced before. Again you keep trying to say to their credit they beat Hydra off panel but that PALES in comparison to THE ENTIRE WAKANDAN ARMY being singlehandedly defeated by Faustus.. a Z list nobody.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, he does have defenses for telepaths... we know that for a fact. The problem being Faustus isn't a telepath, so telepathic defenses wouldn't matter anyways.
Point being, no one can literally be prepared for anything and everything. Everyone loses sooner or later .... that's just how it is. In this particular event Hydra was getting the better of everyone on the planet for a good portion of it. A Cap led Hydra is just that dangerous.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3111694]Yes, he does have defenses for telepaths... we know that for a fact. The problem being Faustus isn't a telepath, so telepathic defenses wouldn't matter anyways.
Point being, no one can literally be prepared for anything and everything. Everyone loses sooner or later .... that's just how it is. In this particular event Hydra was getting the better of everyone on the planet for a good portion of it. A Cap led Hydra is just that dangerous.[/QUOTE]
Everyone loses yes, but there's graceful or creative, and then there's half assing it.
Reusing the same trick, with some dialogue added, is half assing it. Especially given that Faustis had access to Shield and could circumvent their defenses but didn't have that same access with Wakanda.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3111694]Yes, he does have defenses for telepaths... we know that for a fact. The problem being Faustus isn't a telepath, so telepathic defenses wouldn't matter anyways.
Point being, no one can literally be prepared for anything and everything. Everyone loses sooner or later .... that's just how it is. In this particular event Hydra was getting the better of everyone on the planet for a good portion of it. A Cap led Hydra is just that dangerous.[/QUOTE]
[B] Manipulation, either way his power is a long game style, not instant and able to affected 10s of thousands..
weak argument and after dealing with Zenzi who I guess tech technically isn't a telepath, he would develop other types of defenses of manipulation. Again hardly an excuse [/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3111788][B] Manipulation, either way his power is a long game style, not instant and able to affected 10s of thousands..
weak argument and after dealing with Zenzi who I guess tech technically isn't a telepath, he would develop other types of defenses of manipulation. Again hardly an excuse [/B][/QUOTE]
Yup, there's no doubt that Faustus upgraded for this event. Spencer made him more powerful, which in part is probably why he took T'Challa a bit more off guard.
And he may or may not have a means of dealing with Zenzi as well (though at least based on what we're seeing in the solo book his primary method of dealing with her was a speech from Changmire), again that's no gurantee that what will work against Zenzei will work against Faustus or vice versa. Her means appears to be some sort of inate power, while his has always been more tech based. Point being there's more than one means of mind control, and being prepared for one doesn't necessarily gurantee you're prepared for every type espeically if Faustus states his method used in Wakanda is brand new.
Or if you want to look at it purely in meta terms, it's all comic book fiction so something will work if a writer says it will, and something won't if they say it won't.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3111694]Yes, he does have defenses for telepaths... we know that for a fact. The problem being Faustus isn't a telepath, so telepathic defenses wouldn't matter anyways.
Point being, no one can literally be prepared for anything and everything. Everyone loses sooner or later .... that's just how it is. In this particular event Hydra was getting the better of everyone on the planet for a good portion of it. A Cap led Hydra is just that dangerous.[/QUOTE]
Faustus isn't a telepath, but his methods of mind control are not so far removed from telepathy that those trained to resist telepathy can resist his mind control. Sunspot is proof of that.
More than that, superhumans have been widespread for decades now. Are we supposed to believe that Wakanda's defenses against mind control are so weak that anyone can stroll in and take over?
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3111974]Faustus isn't a telepath, but his methods of mind control are not so far removed from telepathy that those trained to resist telepathy can resist his mind control. Sunspot is proof of that.
More than that, superhumans have been widespread for decades now. [B]Are we supposed to believe that Wakanda's defenses against mind control are so weak that anyone can stroll in and take over?[/B][/QUOTE]
Yep, that's what they want us to believe.
It was just one or two issues back where Coates had T'Challa developed tech against telepathic attacks.
But mind control is soooooo different than telepathy.
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Ya know, in all fairness, I'd point out that Secret Empire was crap across the board. Everyone was an idiot, including Hydra Cap.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3111974]Faustus isn't a telepath, but his methods of mind control are not so far removed from telepathy that those trained to resist telepathy can resist his mind control. Sunspot is proof of that.
More than that, superhumans have been widespread for decades now. Are we supposed to believe that Wakanda's defenses against mind control are so weak that anyone can stroll in and take over?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I can buy a person being able to resist him if they have the right training. I didn't expect him to be able to control T'Challa for example. And obviously he couldn't. But the red shirts that made up the Wakandan army are a different matter.
And clearly not anyone can just stroll in and take over... Hydra proved that after failing twice to achieve their goals. But Faustus control was seemingly enough to allow him to get in. WHen you control half the Wakandan army, it makes invasion a bit easier.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3111980]Yep, that's what they want us to believe.
It was just one or two issues back where Coates had T'Challa developed tech against telepathic attacks.
But mind control is soooooo different than telepathy.[/QUOTE]
Depending on the form of mind control, yes it's different. Mind control comes in many shapes and sizes... drugs, pheremones, hypnosis, telepathy, etc. You can be resistant to one form but not another. T'Challa demonstrated that in his encouter with Zenzi at the start of Coates run. He was ready for a telepath, but Zenzi's powers worked differently.
Faustus isn't a telepath at all, so tech that blocks telepathy won't work against him. It's apples and oranges.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3112147]Depending on the form of mind control, yes it's different. Mind control comes in many shapes and sizes... drugs, pheremones, hypnosis, telepathy, etc. You can be resistant to one form but not another. T'Challa demonstrated that in his encouter with Zenzi at the start of Coates run. He was ready for a telepath, but Zenzi's powers worked differently.
Faustus isn't a telepath at all, so tech that blocks telepathy won't work against him. It's apples and oranges.[/QUOTE]
[B]His power works from his voice.. you don't think they would have some Tech to counter that? Aka earplugs. Sorry it was bullshit that he took over so easily and in such a way that chumped Wakanda and Tchalla[/B]
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3112022]Ya know, in all fairness, I'd point out that Secret Empire was crap across the board. Everyone was an idiot, including Hydra Cap.[/QUOTE]
And I can point out that it wasn't and even the teen heroes proved more capable than T'Challa under Coates
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3112282][B]His power works from his voice.. you don't think they would have some Tech to counter that? Aka earplugs. Sorry it was bullshit that he took over so easily and in such a way that chumped Wakanda and Tchalla[/B][/QUOTE]
It has to be more than just his voice, because he effected Hodari before he even spoke a word in that scene.
Again, it's possible T'Challa can and will develop tech to counter what Faustus did in the future... but obviously he didn't have something ready during SE and given Faustus is using an entirely new method to control people I'm not sure why we should assume he would.
But was the Wakandan army chumped? Yes... red shirts get chumped by actual villains. That's sort of the reason red shirts are in stories to begin with. Red shirts can do well against other red shirts, hence us seeing the Wakandan army dominating the Hydra army. But they pretty much always gets get beaten by actual villains. The actual heroes are needed to deal with that.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3112147]Depending on the form of mind control, yes it's different. Mind control comes in many shapes and sizes... drugs, pheremones, hypnosis, telepathy, etc. You can be resistant to one form but not another. T'Challa demonstrated that in his encouter with Zenzi at the start of Coates run. He was ready for a telepath, but Zenzi's powers worked differently.
Faustus isn't a telepath at all, so tech that blocks telepathy won't work against him. It's apples and oranges.[/QUOTE]
So what did Faustus do? Where did he get the power to mind control an entire country?
And for a country that has built a reputation for being unconquerable, you don't think they would have a plan in place for all any kind of mass mind control?
Apples and oranges are still fruit.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3112539]So what did Faustus do? Where did he get the power to mind control an entire country?
And for a country that has built a reputation for being unconquerable, you don't think they would have a plan in place for all any kind of mass mind control?
Apples and oranges are still fruit.[/QUOTE]
Doom has conquered the entire earth on at least 2 occasions, and he never was met with any resistance from Wakanda during those stories so I'm not sure there's any evidence on panel that Wakanda has any sort of defense against mass mind control. If they did, we didn't see it here. So at this point I think we can assume they don't have any defense for mass mind control. We know in the least the HZ have protection against telepathy... though that likely seems new.
As far as Faustus being able to control whole armies... he seemingly got that from Hydra resources. It seems brand new. Spencer ungraded him for the story.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3112543]Doom has conquered the entire earth on at least 2 occasions, and he never was met with any resistance from Wakanda during those stories so I'm not sure there's any evidence on panel that Wakanda has any sort of defense against mass mind control. If they did, we didn't see it here. So at this point I think we can assume they don't have any defense for mass mind control. We know in the least the HZ have protection against telepathy... though that likely seems new.
As far as Faustus being able to control whole armies... he seemingly got that from Hydra resources. It seems brand new. Spencer ungraded him for the story.[/QUOTE]
You're entirely right.
Spencer upgraded Faustus in much the same manner that Coates has wilfully downgraded T'Challa.
Either way, T'Challa gets chumped across multiple books.
Funny how that works out.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3112543]Doom has conquered the entire earth on at least 2 occasions, and he never was met with any resistance from Wakanda during those stories so I'm not sure there's any evidence on panel that Wakanda has any sort of defense against mass mind control. If they did, we didn't see it here. So at this point I think we can assume they don't have any defense for mass mind control. We know in the least the HZ have protection against telepathy... though that likely seems new.
As far as Faustus being able to control whole armies... he seemingly got that from Hydra resources. It seems brand new. Spencer ungraded him for the story.[/QUOTE]
Doom conquered the Earth. However, it has been stated time and time again that Wakanda has never been conquered. If Wakanda has never been conquered then Doom never conquered Wakanda during those stories.
So, which canon do you believe.
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When exactly did Doom conquer the earth?
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;3112606]When exactly did Doom conquer the earth?[/QUOTE]
Emperor Doom graphic novel.
There was never any mention of Wakanda throughout the entire story which was set mostly in, you guessed it, the U.S.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;3112606]When exactly did Doom conquer the earth?[/QUOTE]
He did it twice. Once in Marvel Super Villains team up, and once in Emperor Doom. Both times with mind control.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3112583]Doom conquered the Earth. However, it has been stated time and time again that Wakanda has never been conquered. If Wakanda has never been conquered then Doom never conquered Wakanda during those stories.
So, which canon do you believe.[/QUOTE]
Depends how you define conquered I suppose. Doom aside the earth has been conquered a couple of times. Beyonder in the third issue of Secret Wars 3 for example took control of literally every molecule and atom on earth. Even Shadow King can arguably say he conquered Wakanda, depending on you definition of the word.
I assume most don't count any of that ... it's a matter of interpretation I suppose.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3112643]Depends how you define conquered I suppose. Doom aside the earth has been conquered a couple of times. Beyonder in the third issue of Secret Wars 3 for example took control of literally every molecule and atom on earth. Even Shadow King can arguably say he conquered Wakanda, depending on you definition of the word.
I assume most don't count any of that ... it's a matter of interpretation I suppose.[/QUOTE]
I define conquered as having your country defeated and ruled by a foreign enemy. [U][B]Marvel has repeatedly stated that Wakanda has never been conquered[/B][/U], even well after Emperor Doom and any other scenario you just mentioned.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3112766]I define conquered as having your country defeated and ruled by a foreign enemy. [U][B]Marvel has repeatedly stated that Wakanda has never been conquered[/B][/U], even well after Emperor Doom and any other scenario you just mentioned.[/QUOTE]
So what?
I like Wakanda, but no one bats a hundred, and simple lines of narration don't hold that much weight. Doom managed to take over the world twice, wasn't like Wakanda wasn't in good company ;)
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3112766]I define conquered as having your country defeated and ruled by a foreign enemy. [U][B]Marvel has repeatedly stated that Wakanda has never been conquered[/B][/U], even well after Emperor Doom and any other scenario you just mentioned.[/QUOTE]
Which likely means marvels definition on conquered might be different than your I guess.
Either way, point being I don't think there's any on panel evidence Wakanda has any protection against mass mind control.
T'Challa himself fell victim to the shadow king. If they didn't even come up with any sort of protection for the king, it's kinda doubtful they would have something set up for the rest of the population.
Though they recently came up with anti telepathy tech, so who knows ... maybe down the lime it will be more wide spread.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3112785]So what?
I like Wakanda, but no one bats a hundred, and simple lines of narration don't hold that much weight. Doom managed to take over the world twice, wasn't like Wakanda wasn't in good company ;)[/QUOTE]
It's so what because Marvel keeps making that statement. That's so what. Don't confuse being beaten with being conquered.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3112790]Which likely means marvels definition on conquered might be different than your I guess.
Either way, point being I don't think there's any on panel evidence Wakanda has any protection against mass mind control.
T'Challa himself fell victim to the shadow king. If they didn't even come up with any sort of protection for the king, it's kinda doubtful they would have something set up for the rest of the population.
Though they recently came up with anti telepathy tech, so who knows ... maybe down the lime it will be more wide spread.[/QUOTE]
It apparently different than yours since they keep saying Wakanda has never been conquered.
And Faustus isn't Shadow King.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3112610]Emperor Doom graphic novel.
There was never any mention of Wakanda throughout the entire story which was set mostly in, you guessed it, the U.S.[/QUOTE]
OK, so well before Hudlin retconned Wakanda to have never been conquered.