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[QUOTE=XPac;3690621]Honestely I don't have a problem with Adversary losing to Forge. He's had plenty of time to prep for dealing with this one particular villain. Againt this particular foe he's sort of a specialist.
[B]But in the general sense yes... Adversary isn't a big name character. [/B]I just don't agree that not being an A lister doesn't mean a character can't or shouldn't be presented as a credible threat. To be blunt T'Challa's rogues gallery kinda sucks. I think Adversary is a big step up. Yes, he's a character that's arguably only been in 1 big story. That's 1 big story more than probably 80% of his rogues gallery.[/QUOTE]
[B]And the bolded right there completely disproves your argument. A d list villain should not be able to job a A List hero and the most advanced nation on earth when his 3 big showings he was defeated by lesser heroes with far less prep or loses to a Hero Solo. But gives the most powerful nation full of the most advanced tech as well as mystics and the leader being one of the smartest men alive who is also KotD trouble to where there only solution is to pray to an outsider because faith promotes you to godhood (another contrived plot that by that logic the people should of prayed to their King who is blessed by their god) to defeat said villain. Complete job for an out of franchise Characterband has yet to boost the title Character nor his nation[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690690][B] there's a difference between trying to make a Villain more credible by having them do some good feats (Klaw) and then jobbing the most advanced nation on earth and have the title Character not only not get the big feat, but gives it to a character who's not actually from the franchise itself with a villain who was last beaten by d list heroes and trapped in a box.. [/B][/QUOTE]
Still beating your head against that brick wall I see.
Props to Beware of Geek, Marvell2100 and yourself for debunking the ridiculous and baseless gymnastic misdirection that occurs quite frequently in this thread.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3690316]BINGO!
Spinn all the justifications and excuses you want. EVERYTHING happens because the great and wonderful Ta-Nehesi Coates, darling of the academic set, WANTS it to happen. Whether it makes sense or not, because things like coherent plots and consistent characterization mean SQUAT when there's a Message™ to deliver.
And NOTHING I've seen makes me think that TNC won't continue with his heavy-handed and pretentious preaching. Hell, I was recently informed that not only was the first issue of the new run named after a James Baldwin essay, but one of the longest pieces of dialogue that wasn't cliched bad-guy speech, infodumps, or "Come back to me" was actually a paraphrase of Dr. Khalid Abdul Muhammed (by way of Public Enemy):
"Have you forgotten that once we were brought here, we were robbed of our names, robbed of our language. We lost our religion, our culture, our God; and many of us, by the way we act, we even lost our minds!"
[img]https://i.imgur.com/ntFD851.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
TNC work is trash & will remain such when it's come to anything & all Things BP, On a more important note long live a real life unapologetically uncompromising black African superhero The Honorable Dr. Khalid Muhammad.. Imo he was here he shake his head in disgust at TNC..
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3690718]Still beating your head against that brick wall I see.
Props to Beware of Geek, Marvell2100 and yourself for debunking the ridiculous and baseless gymnastic misdirection that occurs quite frequently in this thread.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]I was on a brief hiatus but like the Chaos Bringer, I have returned. :cool:[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3690630]Actually, in the particular issue under discussion, (X-FACTOR 121) Forge spends half of the issue whining to the ghost of his mentor that he's too weak and can't POSSIBLY beat the Adversary. Then he does it anyway, after a boost of confidence. :D[/QUOTE]
I just recently read those X-Factor issues. Let's all be fair and say they're not good issues. What I do think is worth mentioning is the issues leading up to 121 show that the Adversary is a serious danger to the universe. He's able to beat Naze and Roma (the daughter of Merlin) without much issue at all. But, in the end, he is just a foil for Forge to learn a lesson (frankly, a lesson I thought he had already learned anyway). I liked the retcon about the Spirit Spell from Fall of the Mutants. But it didn't contribute much. What I will say about Coates's story (I tend to agree the ending wasn't very strong), is I do think the Adversary benefitted from the change in setting and change in person defeating him. He made things seem a bit confusing when it came to the Wakandan gods, Originators, and Klaw, but at least we didn't have to see Forge learn the same lesson for a third time.
On a completely different topic, a lot of people appreciated when I read Don McGregor's Panther's Rage and Panther's Quest. I decided to do the same thing on the complete opposite end of the spectrum - Jack Kirby's Black Panther.
For those who don't know, Don McGregor continues Jungle Action from Panther's Rage into the Black Panther vs. the Klan. The story dealt with racism and violence in the deep south and certainly had potential to be very controversial. Probably due to a combination of that and declining sales, he was fired from the book. According to McGregor himself, he was called into an editor's office and the reason for the firing was because he was "too close to the black experience."
Around the same time, Jack Kirby had returned to Marvel with a contract to do four books a month. In the first issue, Kirby promised a new Black Panther, adding "I can only say that you’re due to see the Panther the way he was originally meant to be."
Black Panther Vol. 1 #1 - [i]King Solomon's Frog[/i]
[img]https://www.use.com/images/s_2/c272be369e1b7e96bd36.jpg[/img]
The opening is fairly dramatic. It starts in the middle of the story with nothing but a little tease telling us of the importance of King Solomon's Frog. T'Challa is already on the hunt to find the artifact with a companion by the unfortunate name of "Mr. Little." Suddenly, they are attacked my a swordsman. Luckily, the swordsman is a fish out of water and literally a man out of time and is more afraid of T'Challa than T'Challa is afraid of him. He runs off and the pair leave with the frog.
In the air, Mr. Little and T'Challa are pursued by other collectors. Eventually, they are confronted by Princess Zanda, who kills Mr. Little. T'Challa fights free and, in the confusion, the Frog starts to glow and a weird alien creature with "Hatch 22" appears on his head.
I noticed the Black Panther is still very serious. He talks, but his statements are very matter of fact - usually describing the action that's occurring. However, he does talk a lot and seems to be quite loud in doing it. Mr. Little is not a very likeable character, imo. Princess Zanda says that he would have betrayed and killed T'Challa as well. Either way, he comes off as a heartless dick. He does, however, have most of the agency in the story while T'Challa moves around reacting to everything in a confused manner.
Still, there are some fun moments. There's a nice Indiana Jones-esque sense of adventure that can be fun - particularly with the idea of myths coming from the previous reality of the story (the idea that the Genie was an ancient creature and ended up massacring people, but the story was censored is a fun one). I'll also say that the alien-looking dude at the end looks really, really cool. Next issue might be fun just to see more of him.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3690718]Still beating your head against that brick wall I see.
Props to Beware of Geek, Marvell2100 and yourself for debunking the ridiculous and baseless gymnastic misdirection that occurs quite frequently in this thread.[/QUOTE]
[B]Bad habit. It's time to wash my hands clean of the useless conversation. Some Will see through the BS, others will continue to let it blind them from the truth[/B]
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[QUOTE=KurtW95;3690676]Thought here would be as good a place as any to post this, but is anybody else kind of peeved that the MCU sidelined T’Challa’s intelligence and technological ingenuity in order to build up Shuri?[/QUOTE]
I look at it this way. The Black Panther movie is, at its heart, a James Bond film. And nobody believes Bond is less competent because Q makes his gadgets.
(I also try to treat the movies as their own thing. Trying to make them line up with the comics just causes headaches. :) )
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3690761]I look at it this way. The Black Panther movie is, at its heart, a James Bond film. And nobody believes Bond is less competent because Q makes his gadgets.
(I also try to treat the movies as their own thing. Trying to make them line up with the comics just causes headaches. :) )[/QUOTE]
[B]Plus as shown in the movie, he showcases a lot of on the fly genius and some prep with Ross and he created his CW habit. Honestly I prefer that over lab genius, but I have no problem seeing the scientist side in sequels[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690714][B]And the bolded right there completely disproves your argument. A d list villain should not be able to job a A List hero and the most advanced nation on earth when his 3 big showings he was defeated by lesser heroes with far less prep or loses to a Hero Solo. But gives the most powerful nation full of the most advanced tech as well as mystics and the leader being one of the smartest men alive who is also KotD trouble to where there only solution is to pray to an outsider because faith promotes you to godhood (another contrived plot that by that logic the people should of prayed to their King who is blessed by their god) to defeat said villain. Complete job for an out of franchise Characterband has yet to boost the title Character nor his nation[/B][/QUOTE]
You mistake status for power level. It's not the same thing.
Wolverine is an A list character. By your logic Wolverine should never lose except to other A listers like Spider-Man or Iron Man. But there are plenty of characters more powerful than him, and plenty of characters have beat him. Sentry is a C list character at best, but probably the most powerful hero on earth (when he's on earth). If Sentry fights Wolverine, Sentry will probably win even though Logan is an A lister.
Certainly status can play a role in stories, plot armor and such... but it's certainly not the only or even the most important factor in determining who can beat whom.
Plus, the A list hero and the most advanced nation on earth didn't job. Adversary lost.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690661][B] Again this is the first in only time in his publication history that the Wakandan government has been so inept. So "A lot of times the title character in a book is the only one who seems to have a functional brain" means nothing when this has never been the case for Wakanda.
Plus with morlun, they were trying to buy time because he was Right there in the throne room. They knew they weren't going to stop him, this wasn't a "hey advanced Wakandan Tech isn't working but a good ole fashion poke should do the trick" it was " Hey morlun is coming right up on Tchallas room, and in this critical time every second counts, if we are going to die, might as well be in service of our King"
That's the difference between that situation and Wakanda literally failing to pieces where local law enforcement needs direction from T'Challa on basically how to do everything but walk and breathe[/B][/QUOTE]
If they wanted to buy Shuri time, might as well use more than 2 guys with spears. Cause that's not going to buy you a whole lot of time against a guy who can withstand missiles. They basically needed T'CHalla's direction to continue breathing... sadly they lacked it, and we got the result we did.
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Let him design his new suit for sequel and I'll be happy.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3690674][COLOR="#000080"]Motivation as well imo. Morlun returning would have been a better villain because he does have some history with Wakanda.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
The problem with Morlun is that the Spider-verse retcon makes him more hunting specifically spider totems, rather than animal totems in general. Given his background, he sort of has to be a spider villain more than anything else. Though I suppose we could all just ignore the spider verse stuff.
That said, I wouldn't mind him returning. I thought it was a huge waste to kill off so many of BP's supporting cast for a one time visiting Spider-Man villain. At least have Klaw or Killmonger or something do it. GIve it some meaning. Ah well.
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[QUOTE=KurtW95;3690676]Thought here would be as good a place as any to post this, but is anybody else kind of peeved that the MCU sidelined T’Challa’s intelligence and technological ingenuity in order to build up Shuri?[/QUOTE]
It reminded me of Lucious Fox supplying Batman his gear in the Nolan Batman films. It made enough sense, so I didn't mind.
I actually like it when a supporting cast actually is functional, rather than just being a bunch of Jimmy Olesons or whatever.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690496]I think the antagonists just need to be used better.
Stane actually works pretty well as a BP rogue. A lot of the higher end Iron Man rogues do, given they usually are intelligent and usually have resources. But he was treated as more of a sub boss. He just needs to come off a little scarier.
And I think Adversary works great personally... I hope the BP mythos can steal him from the X books (not like they would miss him). He's a godlike cosmic level threat. Having one of those in ones rogues gallery is always nice.[/QUOTE]
I'd prefer not to have hand me down rogues personally. Or at least let BP co-opt some noteworthy ones.I'm telling you if Liss was allowed to write T'Challa in Wakanda he would have brought it with the rogues.
[QUOTE=KurtW95;3690676]Thought here would be as good a place as any to post this, but is anybody else kind of peeved that the MCU sidelined T’Challa’s intelligence and technological ingenuity in order to build up Shuri?[/QUOTE]
oh man we starting this up again. Pulp Fiction was beating that drum several pages back. I think a few others agreed. It is what it is at this point to me. For a live action cinematic rendition of the character I think its fine. They don't even make live action Batman as ridiculous as he is in the comics.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3690476][COLOR="#000080"]I'd say a good comicbook writer is missing.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
haha. I think the book is selling well in part because of BP's movie snd Marvels mainstream success Coates will be on this book till he decides to step away. I've pointed out, as have others, what Coates natural inclination seems to be as a writer.I think an X-men book or a Spider-Man (street level city hero would be more up his ally). I think he might even do some worthwhile things with Captain America but will likely enrage some fans. I knew who Coates was before he started writing from his appearances on Bill Maher, and articles in the Atlantic, but I didn't anticipate his run tenure being anything like this. Obviously he wasn't that familiar with BP, he's said as much, but he is certainly not a fan of the concept of Wakanda and he's taken steps to revamp it.............. Anyway I don't remember what point I was getting at, but we stuck with him and he's not going to give us the BP book we want
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3690459]This run?
The entire book has been missing a competent writer from day one.
Where've you been? Lol![/QUOTE]
AvX broke me I honestly haven't been able to put faith in 616 since. hahah. I come and go. Y'all praise Hickman. I pick up a few issues, wasn't for me. I gave Coates a chance.....really not for me. So now I'm just waiting on BP multimedia stuff, peaking my head into the BP book now and than.
[QUOTE=Cville;3690326]Tchalla going to need to step his game up. Mr. Terrific is getting the cool toys.
[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qM346TTVryA/WwWW01xYdsI/AAAAAAAACN4/hU4ycO5FpYws2sOGfhRczdmi5yGs5DygwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO006.jpg[/img]
And I liked how he addressed who is smarter issues.
[Img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Nlp-Yq0UDQU/WwWW32VFwJI/AAAAAAAACPE/LjnL34ZrM6wKdbghcA9ijygjkg6hcrswwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO012.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
This book is straight fire I love it.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3690347][COLOR="#000080"]The Terrifics is a good read, really enjoying that series.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Amen
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[QUOTE=Jabare;3690903]I'd prefer not to have hand me down rogues personally. Or at least let BP co-opt some noteworthy ones.I'm telling you if Liss was allowed to write T'Challa in Wakanda he would have brought it with the rogues.
oh man we starting this up again. Pulp Fiction was beating that drum several pages back. I think a few others agreed. It is what it is at this point to me. For a live action cinematic rendition of the character I think its fine. They don't even make live action Batman as ridiculous as he is in the comics.
haha. I think the book is selling well in part because of BP's movie snd Marvels mainstream success Coates will be on this book till he decides to step away. I've pointed out, as have others, what Coates natural inclination seems to be as a writer.I think an X-men book or a Spider-Man (street level city hero would be more up his ally). I think he might even do some worthwhile things with Captain America but will likely enrage some fans. I knew who Coates was before he started writing from his appearances on Bill Maher, and articles in the Atlantic, but I didn't anticipate his run tenure being anything like this. Obviously he wasn't that familiar with BP, he's said as much, but he is certainly not a fan of the concept of Wakanda and he's taken steps to revamp it.............. Anyway I don't remember what point I was getting at, but we stuck with him and he's not going to give us the BP book we want
AvX broke me I honestly haven't been able to put faith in 616 since. hahah. I come and go. Y'all praise Hickman. I pick up a few issues, wasn't for me. I gave Coates a chance.....really not for me. So now I'm just waiting on BP multimedia stuff, peaking my head into the BP book now and than.
This book is straight fire I love it.
Amen[/QUOTE]
The thing is, as far as hand me down rogues, in most cases you won't get the noteworthy ones because obviously a franchise will want to keep their big name characters in house. So yeah... you most get the fringe seldom used ones.
That said, I think both Stane and Adversary are very viable villains. In Stanes case, he's actually pretty cool if he's written better. In Adversarys case, he's just vastly powerful... and I think it's nice having at least one cosmic level uber bad guy in ones rogues gallery. It's a nice constrast from the more street level guys (or slightly above street level) that make up a good portion of his gallery. I just wanna see opponents with higher power levels in there because as it stands, minus Klaw (and maybe Tetu) Iron Man could probably solo T'CHalla's entirely gallery in 5 minutes flat in a straight fight.