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[QUOTE=Nyro;858518]I would had liked to see T'challa discover Emma involvement in the attack on Wakanda but I think we all can agree that that wasn't going to happen.
What I really want to see is how the others are going to respond to Black Bolt and T'challa.[/QUOTE]
I assume Black Bolt's title will play into that in the first arc maybe
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[QUOTE=Nyro;858518]I would had liked to see T'challa discover Emma involvement in the attack on Wakanda but I think we all can agree that that wasn't going to happen.
What I really want to see is how the others are going to respond to Black Bolt and T'challa.[/QUOTE]
My guess is that SOME of them aren't going to respond very well. People like Steve, Sue, and Hulk are friends with Namor. Whatever their differences with him, I very much doubt they'll be happy that he was murdered especially after he just agreed to turn himself in when all this was over.
I guess the real question mark will be whether this endangers the fragile trust the heroes are just starting to build, or whether all that will be thrown out the window.
Black Bolt will probably be sleeping on the coach though.
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[QUOTE=XPac;858675]My guess is that SOME of them aren't going to respond very well. People like Steve, Sue, and Hulk are friends with Namor. Whatever their differences with him, I very much doubt they'll be happy that he was murdered especially after he just agreed to turn himself in when all this was over.
I guess the real question mark will be whether this endangers the fragile trust the heroes are just starting to build, or whether all that will be thrown out the window.
Black Bolt will probably be sleeping on the coach though.[/QUOTE]
I think this will lead to another royal rumble amongst the avengers. A lot of people will be upset that BP Killed Namor, but BP I think will be mad at everyone when Wakanda was destroyed by the Cabal. I can see Reed being upset , but I think he'll understand why he did it and I doubt he'd go against his sworn brotherhood. So if the Illuminati split because of this then I believe it'll at least be T'Challa, Reed, and Black Bot. If it does go this route I hope they paint BP once again as the the one man army that he is.
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;858381]Story wise? I think the writers may have actually forgotten that Emma instigated it, which IMO puts her in the same boat as the members of the Third Reich being complicit in the deaths at concentration camps. They didn't do the deed but directed the actions of the ones that did. [/quote]
Again, nobody except Emma and Namor knew about that conversation, and unless Emma says something, that's how it's going to be. Because she wasn't at the attack; Atlantean soldiers and Namor were. And that's enough of a smoking gun.
I think the P5 were eventually going to attack Wakanda, and that's the Avengers' faults. But how it was done was Atlantis', the Phoenix, and to a lesser extent, Namor. Despite him saying otherwise.
[quote]As for Namor taking the blame? I'd say because obviously he has a sense of honor and Emma doesn't. She is kind of a weasel in this respect.[/QUOTE]
She is, but she also was already dealing with the P5 effects badly. Atlantis was not. And Namor, as I've said multiple times, not only admitted to doing it, but only showed regret twice: in a private conversation and before BB and BP got him.
As annoying as it is, because I'd love for Emma to get called out for it, there is no way that's going to happen. That is, unless Namor snitches on her, or Emma admits it herself. Even a psychic checking her memories would also notice the Phoenix influence.
So I honestly think the writers covered their tracks here, unfortunately. If there's anyone to blame for Emma not getting caught, it's Namor inadvertently using his own nation as a cover (or the nation itself for not even attempting to say, "hey, he's kinda off today. What's up?" I mean, if they were mind controlled, and stated as such, I wouldn't have as much of a problem).
What could have been a P5 influence attack turned into an act of war because he used his forces.
Outside of a plot device (though why Original Sin wasn't used for it, no clue), there's no reasonable way for BP to magically figure it out.
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[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;858487]Iron Maiden made points that were out of context. In order to actually put context to the scene he's quoting it is required to delve into the whole of AvX. You cannot have one without the other. Emma's motivations cannot be selectively looked at from one panel. Or a misreading of the panel. That panel is linked to AvX - Verses #5. Additionally, Emma actually says in the panel Iron Maiden posted that it was never her intention to kill. In fact she goes even further to imply she lost control of the power. So one could say she never even intended to maim Hawkeye that badly. This is further backed up with Emma (with half the Phoenix Force) had the opportunity to turn off everyones minds in AvX 9. And didn't. [/QUOTE]
Those panels only relevance to this thread are in that Emma aimed Namor at Wakanda and that is what Iron Maiden highlighted.
[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;858487]And the Wakanda/Atlantis feud goes back to Rulks involvement.[/QUOTE]
Dude, the Atlantis/Wakanda conflict has nothing to do with Rulk.
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[QUOTE=Nyro;858518]I would had liked to see T'challa discover Emma involvement in the attack on Wakanda but I think we all can agree that that wasn't going to happen.[/QUOTE]
And why pray tell, would T'Challa discovering Emma Frost's hand in Namor's initial attack on Wakanda be off the table? :confused
[QUOTE=Nyro;858518]What I really want to see is how the others are going to respond to Black Bolt and T'challa.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure we'll be treated to that spectacle soon enough.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;858759]And why pray tell, would T'Challa discovering Emma Frost's hand in Namor's initial attack on Wakanda be off the table? :confused
I'm sure we'll be treated to that spectacle soon enough.[/QUOTE]
I just don't see it coming up with Emma being in Bendis hands.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;858746]
Dude, the Atlantis/Wakanda conflict has nothing to do with Rulk.[/QUOTE]
No dude. It has everything to do with Rulk. T'Challa offered the Avengers shelter and Rulk violated his trust by launching an assassination on Cyclops. T'Challa as head of state said he was conflicted and could not get involved. After Rulk attacked the P5 discovered the base of operations was Wakanda. Rulk not only violated Wakanda's neutrality but he did it and never told Captain America or T'Challa what he did.
This only sort to feed Namor's aggression. Emma's sole goal in that scene was to get Laurie one of her students back. Pointing Namor at Wakanda to get Laurie back is one thing but that doesn't absolve Wakanda's neutrality being violated openly by Rulk and under the shadows by T'Challa himself in AvX 6. That also doesn't mean her method would have been a giant tidal wave.
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[QUOTE=Nyro;858788]I just don't see it coming up with Emma being in Bendis hands.[/QUOTE]
I don't want BP written by Bendis anytime soon.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;858336]And what you're saying does not in anyway negate the validity of what Iron Maiden has pointed out in relation to the fact that no questions were asked by T'Challa as to what it was that set Namor on collision course with Wakanda in the first place.
Can you imagine a T'Challa written by Priest, not wanting to know who pulled the trigger on the proverbial smoking gun.
Namor was turned into a convenient scapegoat for the purpose of facilitating this storyline ad all the characters involved in this saga are all the poorer for it.[/QUOTE]
You raise very great points.
I'm surprised folks are NOT tripping out over Namor invading Wakanda over a piece of blonde tail. All this death came from that.
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[QUOTE=Nyro;858788]I just don't see it coming up with Emma being in Bendis hands.[/QUOTE]
When you put it like that, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
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[QUOTE=neohuey89;858707]I think this will lead to another royal rumble amongst the avengers. A lot of people will be upset that BP Killed Namor, but BP I think will be mad at everyone when Wakanda was destroyed by the Cabal. I can see Reed being upset , but I think he'll understand why he did it and I doubt he'd go against his sworn brotherhood. So if the Illuminati split because of this then I believe it'll at least be T'Challa, Reed, and Black Bot. If it does go this route I hope they paint BP once again as the the one man army that he is.[/QUOTE]
If none of the rest of the Illuminati were involved in Namors assasination (and it's possible Reed at least was involved though we obviously don't know for sure yet) the best case scenario might simply be if T'Challa and Black Bolt teleport away and the rest get down to business. Because any sort of battle royal likely would be worst case scenario at this point.
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[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;858790]No dude. It has everything to do with Rulk. T'Challa offered the Avengers shelter and Rulk violated his trust by launching an assassination on Cyclops. T'Challa as head of state said he was conflicted and could not get involved. After Rulk attacked the P5 discovered the base of operations was Wakanda. Rulk not only violated Wakanda's neutrality but he did it and never told Captain America or T'Challa what he did.[/QUOTE]
Upon further reflection I can agree with your observations and applied logic in this regard.
[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;858790]This only sort to feed Namor's aggression. Emma's sole goal in that scene was to get Laurie one of her students back. Pointing Namor at Wakanda to get Laurie back is one thing but that doesn't absolve Wakanda's neutrality being violated openly by Rulk and under the shadows by T'Challa himself in AvX 6. That also doesn't mean her method would have been a giant tidal wave.[/QUOTE]
Even though the logic of what you're saying is sound as regards Emma's motivations, absolving her of responsibility for Namor's attack on Wakanda doesn't work as anyone familiar with the Atlatean Monarch's usual modus operandi of dropping tidal waves on the surface world would tell you.
I'm sure Emma of all people, being intimate with Namor's ways, would have been aware of this too. :cool:
As for T'Challa, it should be interestin to see how the rest of the New Avengers saga plays out for him and Wakanda by the time Hickman is done with the Avengers books.
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Well clearly we are getitng a reset.
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[QUOTE=XPac;858923]If none of the rest of the Illuminati were involved in Namors assasination (and it's possible Reed at least was involved though we obviously don't know for sure yet) the best case scenario might simply be if T'Challa and Black Bolt teleport away and the rest get down to business. Because any sort of battle royal likely would be worst case scenario at this point.[/QUOTE]
T'Challa and Blakagar are assassins now? :gasp:
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Didn't u hear it was a back alley traitorous murder ambush and those two cowards should have sucked it up for the good of the mission which their selfish actions endangered. NVM good old Namor sending Thanos straight throught the anti-matter bombs almost resulting in earth getting destoryed
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[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;858487] And the Wakanda/Atlantis feud goes back to Rulks involvement.[/QUOTE]
Namor didn't attack Wakanda because of Rulk's attack nor did Emma direct Namor there afterwards. He attacked Wakanda because of Transonic being captured. That's all he kept talking about and Emma just egged him on. And still no one knows what happened to Transonic after the attack so were they really that concerned?
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;858960]T'Challa and Blakagar are assassins now? :gasp:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that [I]is[/I] harsh.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;858995]Namor didn't attack Wakanda because of Rulk's attack nor did Emma direct Namor there afterwards. He attacked Wakanda because of Transonic being captured. That's all he kept talking about and Emma just egged him on. And still no one knows what happened to Transonic after the attack so were they really that concerned?[/QUOTE]
One way or the other, Wakanda needed to be decimated for storytelling purposes. :)
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;859012]Yeah, that [I]is[/I] harsh.[/QUOTE]
Two Men in Black were seen at the crime scene lookin mad shady and inscrutable wid it.
Apprehend them now!
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;859013]One way or the other, [B]Wakanda needed to be decimated for storytelling purposes. :)[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, lotta that going on. I just really hope we didn't lose Shuri too. She was coming into her own as Queen of Wakanda.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;859017]Two Men in Black were seen at the crime scene lookin mad shady and inscrutable wid it.
Apprehend them now![/QUOTE]
The Butler did it.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;859012]Yeah, that [I]is[/I] harsh.[/QUOTE]
Assassinations can be harsh.
There are probably less harsh ways to assassinate people, but this one blowing up someone after he's already been shot and stabbed. That's probably about as harsh as you're gonna get.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;859026]The Butler did it.[/QUOTE]
No!!! Not Tim Curry!!!!!
Why Tim WHY!?!?!?!?!?!
[IMG]http://25.media.tumblr.com/170ff9e172883fe6b2e01646aad8f48e/tumblr_mgwrnxGQtw1rmspe4o1_400.gif[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;858995]That's all he kept talking about and Emma just egged him on. And still no one knows what happened to Transonic after the attack so were they really that concerned?[/QUOTE]
She got a brief mention in Young Avengers, she's no longer living with any X-Team and that was all that was mentioned
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[QUOTE=XPac;859047]Assassinations can be harsh.
There are probably less harsh ways to assassinate people, but this one blowing up someone after he's already been shot and stabbed. That's probably about as harsh as you're gonna get.[/QUOTE]
What happened wasn't an assassination. Don't be so harsh.
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[QUOTE=Smoov-E;859052]She got a brief mention in Young Avengers, she's no longer living with any X-Team and that was all that was mentioned[/QUOTE]
We'll she's still alive at least.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;859053]What happened wasn't an assassination. Don't be so harsh.[/QUOTE]
I think what happened fit the definition of the term pretty well.
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[QUOTE=JaggedFel;858980]Didn't u hear it was a back alley traitorous murder ambush and those two cowards should have sucked it up for the good of the mission which their selfish actions endangered. NVM good old Namor sending Thanos straight throught the anti-matter bombs almost resulting in earth getting destoryed[/QUOTE]
Like I said, I'm not an uber BP fan but it's obvious why BP wants to kill Namor.
The guy was responsible for his country being destroyed TWICE!
I can understand Namor was possessed the first time but the second time (directing world killing psychopaths to Wakanda) was 100% on Namor. Retaliation or no, directing guys like that to a country that small was overkill. Even Reed Richards was shocked and asked how Namor became such a monster.
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[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;858487]Iron Maiden made points that were out of context. In order to actually put context to the scene he's quoting it is required to delve into the whole of AvX. You cannot have one without the other. Emma's motivations cannot be selectively looked at from one panel. Or a misreading of the panel. That panel is linked to AvX - Verses #5. Additionally, Emma actually says in the panel Iron Maiden posted that it was never her intention to kill. In fact she goes even further to imply she lost control of the power. So one could say she never even intended to maim Hawkeye that badly. This is further backed up with Emma (with half the Phoenix Force) had the opportunity to turn off everyones minds in AvX 9. And didn't.
And the Wakanda/Atlantis feud goes back to Rulks involvement.[/QUOTE]
None of what I posted was out of context. The main title is what you follow for the sequence of events and Emma's instigating the attack is immediately followed by Namor attacking Wakanda. That is all that is relevant. You can whitewash with Emma's motives all you want but she's always used manipulation and seduction to get her way. You admitted as much in your defense. She used the same m.o. in A v X and didn't care who got hurt to achieve her goal.
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[QUOTE=Username taken;859120]Like I said, I'm not an uber BP fan but it's obvious why BP wants to kill Namor.
The guy was responsible for his country being destroyed TWICE!
I can understand Namor was possessed the first time but the second time (directing world killing psychopaths to Wakanda) was 100% on Namor. Retaliation or no, directing guys like that to a country that small was overkill. Even Reed Richards was shocked and asked how Namor became such a monster.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I can agree with that but I also think that had Shuri taken T'Challa's suggestion she wouldn't have counter attacked Atlantis, leading to Namor being desperate enough to give false information about the Infinity Gems. I really didn't like that bit of characterization myself concerning Namor. I would rather he had not been that short sighted. But just about every writer keeps going back to the early stories and say "well he invaded New York once" and don't allow for the stories and development that came afterward.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;859020]Yeah, lotta that going on. I just really hope we didn't lose Shuri too. She was coming into her own as Queen of Wakanda.[/QUOTE]
It's odd that we don't know what happened to her after she gave the sword to T'Challa. IMO it would add extra weight to T'Challa's actions if we find out that the Cabal killed her after that scene.
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;859307]Yes, I can agree with that but I also think that had Shuri taken T'Challa's suggestion she wouldn't have counter attacked Atlantis, leading to Namor being desperate enough to give false information about the Infinity Gems. I really didn't like that bit of characterization myself concerning Namor. I would rather he had not been that short sighted. But just about every writer keeps going back to the early stories and say "well he invaded New York once" and don't allow for the stories and development that came afterward.[/QUOTE]
The characterization does Namor no favors. After so long being written as a roguish hero, to have him written as more of a tempermental ruler is jarring. I am not saying that he isnt interesting written this way, because story wise its very entertaining.
I found Shuri's reasoning to very realistic. A warrior nation isnt going to let blood of that propartion just slide. A new ruler would immeditately court rebellion by looking so weak.Since personally I abhor war, but this was the natural response.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;858960]T'Challa and Blakagar are assassins now? :gasp:[/QUOTE]
To paraphrase the great Chris Rock
Mlk was assassinated
Malcolm X was assassinated
That Fish just got shot:)
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;859307]Yes, I can agree with that but I also think that had Shuri taken T'Challa's suggestion she wouldn't have counter attacked Atlantis, leading to Namor being desperate enough to give false information about the Infinity Gems. I really didn't like that bit of characterization myself concerning Namor. I would rather he had not been that short sighted. But just about every writer keeps going back to the early stories and say "well he invaded New York once" and don't allow for the stories and development that came afterward.[/QUOTE]
I agree.
They've pretty much written Namor and BP into a corner now.
Some form of a reset is needed.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;859332]The characterization does Namor no favors. After so long being written as a roguish hero, to have him written as more of a tempermental ruler is jarring. I am not saying that he isnt interesting written this way, because story wise its very entertaining.
I found Shuri's reasoning to very realistic. A warrior nation isnt going to let blood of that propartion just slide. A new ruler would immeditately court rebellion by looking so weak.Since personally I abhor war, but this was the natural response.[/QUOTE]
Personally I didn't have a huge problem with what either Shuri or Namor did quite honestly. However, I also don't think the idea was really that either were necessarily doing the right thing and they both kharmically at least ended up paying for their actions. Their nations were both lost, and both SEEMINGLY ended up losing their lives. In a way that's sort of the nice thing about Hickman's story... no one really got away with anything. Or at least no one that ended up killing a whole bunch of people did. As practical as taking the low road may have looked at the time (and I defended both Shuri and Namor), there was still something to be said about taking the high road.
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[QUOTE=Username taken;859386]You mean apart from secretly directing Thanos forces to his country and hiding it UNTIL he and BP got into a scuffle.
Namor has been many things but his characterization lately has been less than stellar.[/QUOTE]
Namor would do it to protect his kingdom. As we saw with him in the incursions, he was willing to do just about anything to do that.
I think that's the lesson that both he and T'Challa's ancestors were making about being kings.... if you need to be a monster to protect your people, then be a monster. From their perspective at least, you don't put your own principals ahead of the needs of your people. Which is why T'Challa came into conflict with his ancestors. He couldn't do that.
Which isn't of course to say that putting the needs of your people ahead of your own principals is necessarily the right thing to do... but at least in Hickman's stories I think it was sort of a way to differenciate a hero from a king. T'Challa ended up being more one, while Namor ended up being more the other.
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[QUOTE=Username taken;859384]I agree.
They've pretty much written Namor and BP into a corner now.
Some form of a reset is needed.[/QUOTE]
Death is usually the great soul cleanser.Namor comes back from the grave to lead his people to prominence.
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[QUOTE=XPac;859400]Namor would do it to protect his kingdom. As we saw with him in the incursions, he was willing to do just about anything to do that.
I think that's the lesson that both he and T'Challa's ancestors were making about being kings.... if you need to be a monster to protect your people, then be a monster. From their perspective at least, you don't put your own principals ahead of the needs of your people. Which is why T'Challa came into conflict with his ancestors. He couldn't do that.
Which isn't of course to say that putting the needs of your people ahead of your own principals is necessarily the right thing to do... but at least in Hickman's stories I think it was sort of a way to differenciate a hero from a king. T'Challa ended up being more one, while Namor ended up being more the other.[/QUOTE]
Now I wonder...since we see both Namor and T'challa as monsters now, then are there any honest Kings left that don't want no bloodshed of their people ?
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I wonder... with movie on the horizon, what would you want in a new BP ongoing series? Who could write the character? What should the story be about? What supporting cast and rogues do you want to see?