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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3759626]I really don't understand this obsession with T'Challa and powerups.
Batman doesn't need a power up. Captain America doesn't need a power up, and neither does Black Panther. Some characters are just fine as is.[/QUOTE]
What "obsession" with power ups?
Did Jonathan Hickman not introduce additional peers and abilities to T'challa that actually made sense?
The ability to access the memories, abilities, strengths and powers of previous Black Panther was rife with storytelling potential that could have expanded on the BP Mythos past, present and future in a much more organic and natural manner than has been the case under Coates wholly unimaginative pen.
One is not talking about a T'challa able to leap tall buildings in a single bound or one punch Thanks into unconsciousness but rather, a T'challa able to draw upon race memory from all the BP's that preceded him and then applying same to deal with threats he faces in the here and now.
Post Priest, T'challa was portrayed as a third string character all back of the bus like, during Roy Thomas tenure as Avengers writer.
Priest gave T'challa much needed enhancements to his arsenal and general demeanour that most BP fans rave about to this very day, so it's not as if there's anything odd about new writers expanding on T'Challa's abilities in a meaningfully logical manner going forward.
Peace.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3759626]I really don't understand this obsession with T'Challa and powerups.
Batman doesn't need a power up. Captain America doesn't need a power up, and neither does Black Panther. Some characters are just fine as is.[/QUOTE]
[B]No one was asking for another power up. Folks were talking about how Hickman powered Tchalla up and the story potential of it and how it's not being utilized and the ball was dropped by Hickman and everyone else. Post Hickman, Tchalla seems to be the same as he was before strength wise. He has always been able to tangle with class 100+ opponents and cosmic beings
Edit: Hit the nail on the head Maj[/B]
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3759447]As I've said previously, a solid grasp of T'Challa's abilities pre-Coates diminish meant of the character, is required to adequately debate or discuss from an informed perspective.
When posters as knowledgeable about T'challa as you are about Storm, go out of their way to post information relating to the characters actual prowess, it doesn't really help when readers unfamiliar with the characters full repertoire refer to him as just being a man when he's obviously much more than that.[/QUOTE]
what abilities do he have pre-coates that I dont adequately understand that would allow tchalla to beat a universal threat who itself was able to contain a multiversal threat? what did I not accurately state about his encounter with mephisto and tiger god?
[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3759626]I really don't understand this obsession with T'Challa and powerups.
Batman doesn't need a power up. Captain America doesn't need a power up, and neither does Black Panther. Some characters are just fine as is.[/QUOTE]
this is kind of hitting on my concern. some fans want him to do everything (and beat everyone even when it doenst make sense) and for me as a reader it just doesn't make sense that tchalla should be beating characters on the level of adversary some form of help. people upset that ororo was able to defeat adversary over tchalla is the best example of this. he sought his ex wife out for help becusse her power was great enough to handle this threat. he sought out the tiger god to handle the threat from logos. what is the difference between the two other than the vessels he used to address the threat? it's a double standard and it makes no sense.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3759676][B]Maj don't bother. Butterfly has been posting the sane reguitated argument "claiming" that BP enthusiast don't understand the context of how Tchalla beat Mephisto yet somehow they do after reading two issues or the client or something. They keep saying the same false information and claiming people here have "double standards" for Coates and Storm. Go figure. and it's beyond old and no matter how much any poster here with vast and complete knowledge of Bps mythos say about Tchallas filly realized and capabilities, we are simply wanting him to be a Mary Sue and hating on Coates and Storm because we don't like then and want Tchalla to be unbeatable.
No need to entertain the poster anymore[/B][/QUOTE]
as I asked maj what exactly did I say that was incorrect about mephisto or tiger god? ignore me dont entertain me whatever it doesnt negate the fact that what I have been arguing is absolute sound and correct. but I've made my case I think adequately at this point to discontinue this conversation.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3759691][B]No one was asking for another power up. Folks were talking about how Hickman powered Tchalla up and the story potential of it and how it's not being utilized and the ball was dropped by Hickman and everyone else. Post Hickman, Tchalla seems to be the same as he was before strength wise. He has always been able to tangle with class 100+ opponents and cosmic beings
Edit: Hit the nail on the head Maj[/B][/QUOTE]
The thing is, in large part I think it was being utilized pretty much how it was intended.
Prior to Hickman, T'Challa was depowered. King of the Dead essentially powers him up roughly back to his standard power level (maybe a little higher though it seems negligible), without taking anything away from Shuri.
That was pretty much the point (along with the ability to communate with the previous BP's being a way to facilitate the incursion scene he had with his dad).
Coates plays with his abilities a bit more, with the spear and the Lord of the Rings ghost army at the end of the first season. But I don't think the idea was ever really to power him up a lot (and before you say again that no one is talking about a power up this whole conversation was in response to Cville saying Hickman powered him up a lot).
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3759626]I really don't understand this obsession with T'Challa and powerups.
Batman doesn't need a power up. Captain America doesn't need a power up, and neither does Black Panther. Some characters are just fine as is.[/QUOTE]
Generally speaking powering up heroes never made sense to me.
Heroes win like 99% of the time. Why do they need to be more powerful if they pretty much always win anyways? If anything it's the villains that need power ups.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3759680]What "obsession" with power ups?
Did Jonathan Hickman not introduce additional peers and abilities to T'challa that actually made sense?
The ability to access the memories, abilities, strengths and powers of previous Black Panther was rife with storytelling potential that could have expanded on the BP Mythos past, present and future in a much more organic and natural manner than has been the case under Coates wholly unimaginative pen.
One is not talking about a T'challa able to leap tall buildings in a single bound or one punch Thanks into unconsciousness but rather, a T'challa able to draw upon race memory from all the BP's that preceded him and then applying same to deal with threats he faces in the here and now.
Post Priest, T'challa was portrayed as a third string character all back of the bus like, during Roy Thomas tenure as Avengers writer.
Priest gave T'challa much needed enhancements to his arsenal and general demeanour that most BP fans rave about to this very day, so it's not as if there's anything odd about new writers expanding on T'Challa's abilities in a meaningfully logical manner going forward.
Peace.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, no Hickman's stuff didn't make sense. Why does T'Challa need to be able to control zombies (with shouting help from Namor, ugh)?
And giving T'Challa a cellphone to his ancestors was done just so they could yell at him. Frankly, I never saw the point of them beyond that.
Priest upgraded T'Challa yes, but not all that much when you think about it.
Every 'street' level character you can think of, DD, Black Widow or Cap, all have distance weapons. Prior to Priest, T'Challa didn't. They had some gadgets. T'Challa didn't.
All Priest did was put T'Challa on a level playing field with the rest of his weight class, and that's all he needs.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3759754]Generally speaking powering up heroes never made sense to me.
Heroes win like 99% of the time. Why do they need to be more powerful if they pretty much always win anyways? If anything it's the villains that need power ups.[/QUOTE]
Depends,there are particular things the 'normal' humans like T Challa or Bruce simply shouldn't be able do on there own so powerups are needed to justify those particular wins.
Whether or not those powerups are handled well is other story.
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[QUOTE=Baseman;3759767]Depends,the are particular things the 'normal' humans like T Challa or Bruce simply shouldn't be able do on there own so powerups are needed.[/QUOTE]
But if they can already do those things, then the point is they don't need to be any more powerful than they already are. THat's the point. They are fine as is if they are getting it done the vast majority of the time.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3759754]Generally speaking powering up heroes never made sense to me.
Heroes win like 99% of the time. Why do they need to be more powerful if they pretty much always win anyways? If anything it's the villains that need power ups.[/QUOTE]
It depends on the character.
T'Challa, Cap, Batman, Thor etc are all the same level/tier, even if that's not always reflected by the writers. They are good as is.
The characters that need powerups are those below them.
The New Mutants needed powerups to show their development, and to step up their game as they grown into adult roles, for instance. Sometimes, power ups develop the characters, as was the case with Nova as he received more power and more responsibility.
Power ups should be reserved for the second string, the sidekicks, etc. Those that need to grow, or need to climb the ladder.
T'Challa doesn't have a ladder to climb to be a better hero, to be a better skilled hero. Like Cap, he's a pro. He can be developed in personality, but his abilities/emotional maturity are good.
He just needs a writer who recognizes that.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3759766]Honestly, no Hickman's stuff didn't make sense. Why does T'Challa need to be able to control zombies (with shouting help from Namor, ugh)?
And giving T'Challa a cellphone to his ancestors was done just so they could yell at him. Frankly, I never saw the point of them beyond that.
Priest upgraded T'Challa yes, but not all that much when you think about it.
Every 'street' level character you can think of, DD, Black Widow or Cap, all have distance weapons. Prior to Priest, T'Challa didn't. They had some gadgets. T'Challa didn't.
All Priest did was put T'Challa on a level playing field with the rest of his weight class, and that's all he needs.[/QUOTE]
Aside from having the ability to talk to his dad for the incursion scene, and repowering him, I think the whole "king of the dead" thing was just about T'Challa being able to call himself a king again.
The Zombie thing was probably just a fun scene they threw in there, because yeah... the ability to control zombies really is a pretty random ability that doesn't fit the character to any large extent.
As for Priest... more than anything he just wrote T'Challa very very well. And that's all he needed. That's all any character really needs, for the most part.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3759770]It depends on the character.
T'Challa, Cap, Batman, Thor etc are all the same level/tier, even if that's not always reflected by the writers. They are good as is.
The characters that need powerups are those below them.
The New Mutants needed powerups to show their development, and to step up their game as they grown into adult roles, for instance. Sometimes, power ups develop the characters, as was the case with Nova as he received more power and more responsibility.
Power ups should be reserved for the second string, the sidekicks, etc. Those that need to grow, or need to climb the ladder.
T'Challa doesn't have a ladder to climb to be a better hero, to be a better skilled hero. Like Cap, he's a pro. He can be developed in personality, but his abilities/emotional maturity are good.
He just needs a writer who recognizes that.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that certainly makes sense.
And it fits Shuri getting a power up. Unlike T'Challa, she actually needed it. She needed SOMETHING once the decision was finally make to take the BP mantle from her.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3759750]The thing is, in large part I think it was being utilized pretty much how it was intended.
Prior to Hickman, T'Challa was depowered. King of the Dead essentially powers him up roughly back to his standard power level (maybe a little higher though it seems negligible), without taking anything away from Shuri.
That was pretty much the point (along with the ability to communate with the previous BP's being a way to facilitate the incursion scene he had with his dad).
Coates plays with his abilities a bit more, with the spear and the Lord of the Rings ghost army at the end of the first season. But I don't think the idea was ever really to power him up a lot (and before you say again that no one is talking about a power up this whole conversation was in response to Cville saying Hickman powered him up a lot).[/QUOTE]
[B] I don't think it was actually. Saying a character has then the strength, knowledge, and experience of all the BPs before them doesn't sound like it means that he is now slightly stronger then he was with just the hsh. Unless the previous 10k year's worth of BP's had the strength of a kittens. No, Hickman took a cool concept and, Like alot of what happened in Tro event, had cool ideas that lead to nowhere or he would drop them or have a Very specific use for them and didn't think it all the way through. Rough ideas without a full developed plan.
The KotD power actually could be very useful. Myself and plenty of posterd here have come up with ideas to make it a deus ex machina, can never be defeated ability. It requires imagination, something most writers using BP have lacked [/B]
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3759766]Honestly, no Hickman's stuff didn't make sense. Why does T'Challa need to be able to control zombies (with shouting help from Namor, ugh)?
And giving T'Challa a cellphone to his ancestors was done just so they could yell at him. Frankly, I never saw the point of them beyond that.
Priest upgraded T'Challa yes, but not all that much when you think about it.
Every 'street' level character you can think of, DD, Black Widow or Cap, all have distance weapons. Prior to Priest, T'Challa didn't. They had some gadgets. T'Challa didn't.
All Priest did was put T'Challa on a level playing field with the rest of his weight class, and that's all he needs.[/QUOTE]
[B]Cap can throw his shield and DD throws his billy clubs. Tchallas Daggers can stun, kill, out a tracking frequency on a Target, shut down helicopters like a mini EMP, see what they did to hydroman and Klaw, they can rewrite the DNA in a dragon..
Energy damp boots Allow him to fall 8 stories and land on his feet.. silently, weaken the integrity of objects, run up walls and stand on water. And catch cars thrown by the hulk... Not the same thing at all.
It's about keeping Tchalla up to date or if something new is added, having the imagination to see the potential. No one is wanting him to have the power of hulk or go hit for hit with Thanos, But use the tools and resources he has to level the playing field like he does. Tchalla has made a career out of fighting way above his weight class [/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3759860][B] I don't think it was actually. Saying a character has then the strength, knowledge, and experience of all the BPs before them doesn't sound like it means that he is now slightly stronger then he was with just the hsh. Unless the previous 10k year's worth of BP's had the strength of a kittens. No, Hickman took a cool concept and, Like alot of what happened in Tro event, had cool ideas that lead to nowhere or he would drop them or have a Very specific use for them and didn't think it all the way through. Rough ideas without a full developed plan.
The KotD power actually could be very useful. Myself and plenty of posterd here have come up with ideas to make it a deus ex machina, can never be defeated ability. It requires imagination, something most writers using BP have lacked [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't think it literally meant he had the physical strength of every single BP prior to him. It's Hickmans upgrade, and he along with every other writer since then have potrayed him as having ROUGHTLY the same physical stats. If he's any stronger, I think it's fairly negligible.
I think it goes back to the notion that T'CHalla pretty much is fine as is. They didn't turn him stronger because he doesn't need to be stronger. He wasn't upgraded because frankly he didn't need to be upgraded.
And if indeed this ability hypothetically could be used as a deuz ex machine never be defeated ability, all the more reason that writers shouldn't potray it as such. Because no writer would want their character to have a never defeated ability.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3759772]Aside from having the ability to talk to his dad for the incursion scene, and repowering him, I think the whole "king of the dead" thing was just about T'Challa being able to call himself a king again.
The Zombie thing was probably just a fun scene they threw in there, because yeah... the ability to control zombies really is a pretty random ability that doesn't fit the character to any large extent.
As for Priest... more than anything he just wrote T'Challa very very well. And that's all he needed. That's all any character really needs, for the most part.[/QUOTE]
[B]No.. Priest didn't just write him Really well, your trying to down play what Priest actually did, which was take the ground work set up by Lee and Kirby and upgrade him to the 21st century, highlight his traits and give him standard gear and a foundation for future writers (Hudlin especially) to build on, and showed T'Challa fights above his weight class and how he is able to do it. [/B]