-
[QUOTE=XPac;3688479]I honestly liked it. Him barely speaking, and largely just beating people up was kinda cool. I wouldn't want him always written that way. But it was kinda fun in this context.[/QUOTE]
It also added some weight to when he finally spoke. I liked it here
-
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3688580][B]No, it's just some of us see through the bullshit for what his stories are. Season 1 got all this praise and it turned Wakanda Into stereotypical Africa with Tchalla doing stupid thing's like meeting with known despots and asking advice on how to quell a rebellion (something he has done many times) just to see what they would say, and is surprised when it backfires. Some of us aint going to applaud his "overwhelmingly positive responses" when all he is doing is playing more on turning Wakanda into pilgrim/European slave trader analogues with Black dysfunction in the Wakanda mainland
Coates is getting carried by marvel doing their best to keep his book relevant and out of the cancel zone. He doesn't write good BP stories.
Had Priest, Hudlin, or Liss got this much help from marvel? We would of had 100 issues from them and Hudlin's true doomwar with a satisfactory ending and WWW (World war Wakanda)[/B][/QUOTE]
I cant speak to priest or hudlin or liss. You are most certainly entitled to your opinion but I hardly see why any fan would find something to criticize, especially as most have said it's a setup issue. he was kicking ass, not needing the help of his supporting characters and the art was beautiful. it comes across that the criticism is being blindly made based upon not liking his previous stuff as opposed to letting this issue stand on it's own. and based upon your response it would seem I'm correct.
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3688721]I think you could counter that people will find ANYTHING to praise about when it is associated with Coates, even when he writes an overwhelmingly average issue.
Most of the people who are pointing out valid criticisms of #1 stated it was decent/solid/good when the issue came out. Mostly because of the art but still... you can criticize anything. A lot of people around here are of the opinion Priest run is the best run and there are still criticisms of that.
This was barely a set up issue considering it is starting in the middle of a story. Issue was saved by Acuna who took a heavy handed slave allegory issue and made it entertaining to look at. I hope Acuna can keep pace month to month.[/QUOTE]
again you are entitled to your opinion but the overwhelming positive reviews and the fact the issue is going through separate prints would suggest otherwise.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3688828][B] Exactly. Hudlin and McDuffie had great Storm feats, yet people will say Hudlin sidelined Storm and usually they point to SWaD (Which was written by JA) and then blame Hudlin. But he actually did have Storm do stuff. McDuffie took it further and had her hit SS with a storm in space and channel some massive energy. But this isn't good enough for some.
So when Coates Storm comes into the BP mythos and Coates basically Storm fanfics the mythos, of course people act like he is the next coming of Priest or something... Coates has yet to do any benefit to T'Challa or Wakanda itself. But people try to dissect his simplistic story telling and spin something out of the mediocrity, because they don't want to admit that though they may like his other work, his comics leave MUCH more to be desired [/B][/QUOTE]
first off I'm one of the few storm fans who still defend hudlin. I think what he did with diving into her family, confirming she was a potential omega level mutant, having her defeat death, and showing them in a loving fashion was great but let's not fool ourselves. hudlin did not accurately capture her voice. I've been reading old issues of Claremont stories for the first time and to be frank Claremont and hudlin's storm read like completely two different people. so proppe criticism of hudlin goes deeper than feats or what not. the same case you make against coates now is what storm fans were saying when hudlin wrote her.
-
[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3689148]I cant speak to priest or hudlin or liss. You are most certainly entitled to your opinion but I hardly see why any fan would find something to criticize, especially as most have said it's a setup issue. he was kicking ass, not needing the help of his supporting characters and the art was beautiful. it comes across that the criticism is being blindly made based upon not liking his previous stuff as opposed to letting this issue stand on it's own. and based upon your response it would seem I'm correct.
again you are entitled to your opinion but the overwhelming positive reviews and the fact the issue is going through separate prints would suggest otherwise.
first off I'm one of the few storm fans who still defend hudlin. I think what he did with diving into her family, confirming she was a potential omega level mutant, having her defeat death, and showing them in a loving fashion was great but let's not fool ourselves. hudlin did not accurately capture her voice. I've been reading old issues of Claremont stories for the first time and to be frank Claremont and hudlin's storm read like completely two different people. so proppe criticism of hudlin goes deeper than feats or what not. the same case you make against coates now is what storm fans were saying when hudlin wrote her.[/QUOTE]
[B]I and many others have gone into detail about the issue with his #1 and it's not "blindly made based upon not liking his previous stuff". In fact, if you actually read the criticisms most people started by saying it was a average, decent, or good issue, then went into details about the problem with the issue, just because it sold well (this is also I'm part due to having a ton of variants) doesn't mean it was a good representation of T'Challa or Wakanda as a whole. In fact he has yet to actually uplift either in The 3 years he has been on the franchise. So to try and dismiss legit criticism as simply hating it because it's Coates, is disingenuous at best.
[/B]
-
h[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3689191][B]I and many others have gone into detail about the issue with his #1 and it's not "blindly made based upon not liking his previous stuff". In fact, if you actually read the criticisms most people started by saying it was a average, decent, or good issue, then went into details about the problem with the issue, just because it sold well (this is also I'm part due to having a ton of variants) doesn't mean it was a good representation of T'Challa or Wakanda as a whole. In fact he has yet to actually uplift either in The 3 years he has been on the franchise. So to try and dismiss legit criticism as simply hating it because it's Coates, is disingenuous at best.
[/B][/QUOTE]
As I've stated previously, actual BP Mythos enthusiasts understand what's going in with Coates hijacking of the BP Mythos and missapropriation of same to tell misplaced tales of dysfunctional drivel masquerading as "revolutionary" literature.
-
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3689191][B]I and many others have gone into detail about the issue with his #1 and it's not "blindly made based upon not liking his previous stuff". In fact, if you actually read the criticisms most people started by saying it was a average, decent, or good issue, then went into details about the problem with the issue, just because it sold well (this is also I'm part due to having a ton of variants) doesn't mean it was a good representation of T'Challa or Wakanda as a whole. In fact he has yet to actually uplift either in The 3 years he has been on the franchise. So to try and dismiss legit criticism as simply hating it because it's Coates, is disingenuous at best.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I never said it was hating my friend. I said based upon the criticism of this issue alone I'm not sure what BP fans would criticize. you even responded initially by pointing out season 1 got w lot of praise and then went to making wakanda look bad implying the same thing would happen here. we dont know the context of these intergalaruc wakandans taking slaves or any of that. and tchalla lost his memory and fought his way through multiple foreign adversaries and terrain without any memory. all he had was his innate abilities. the biggest criticism I read of season one of some here was that his supporting cast was doing everything, yet in this issue that didnt happen and the credit doesnt go to his mind and creativity but to the art? even when it's way to early to even know what's even going on storyline wise. so again based upon your initial response it seems criticism of this book is being made what he did in season 1 and not necessarily looking at this issue in a self contained fashion. it's more a reflection of your distaste of what he has previously done.
-
[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3689287]I never said it was hating my friend. I said based upon the criticism of this issue alone I'm not sure what BP fans would criticize. you even responded initially by pointing out season 1 got w lot of praise and then went to making wakanda look bad implying the same thing would happen here. we dont know the context of these intergalaruc wakandans taking slaves or any of that. and tchalla lost his memory and fought his way through multiple foreign adversaries and terrain without any memory. all he had was his innate abilities. the biggest criticism I read of season one of some here was that his supporting cast was doing everything, yet in this issue that didnt happen and the credit doesnt go to his mind and creativity but to the art? even when it's way to early to even know what's even going on storyline wise. so again based upon your initial response it seems criticism of this book is being made what he did in season 1 and not necessarily looking at this issue in a self contained fashion. it's more a reflection of your distaste of what he has previously done.[/QUOTE]
Criticisms with season 1 went far beyond BP getting overshadowed by the supporting cast. Rape camps being rampant in Wakanda with T'Challa knowing about them and did nothing, his character traits being given to other characters. The Dora Milaje suddenly feeling oppressed, the lack of good action, T'Challa bringing despots into Wakanda to seek their council even though he was fully aware of the terrible things that they've done to maintain their power. Coates harping on how T'Challa is a scientist at heart but haven't given him but has him many scientific feats and using other people's tech like Doom’s for something that he could've easily invented or have used kimoyo to do. Wakanda, a nation that defeated the Skrulls and repelled the Black Order multiple times is nearly brought to destruction by mooks with guns that had no military leadership.
The MA and Dora who were mentioned for being responsible for the death of legions of Wakandan soldiers don't get punished but are rewarded with their own land even though back in Priest's run T'Challa said he wouldn't do anything like because it'd inspire other tribes to do the same. The MA and Dora aligning with Tetu and Zenzi then breaking it off with them after Shuri threatens them and then don't bother with defending the country they claim to love in the final battle and still get rewarded in the end.
Shuri telling abuse/rape victim that what happened to that they should've been left to die because it wouldn't have mattered as long as Wakanda still stood, and I believe Shuri said something like that not once but twice.
-
[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689349]Criticisms with season 1 went far beyond BP getting overshadowed by the supporting cast. Rape camps being rampant in Wakanda with T'Challa knowing about them and did nothing, his character traits being given to other characters. The Dora Milaje suddenly feeling oppressed, the lack of good action, T'Challa bringing despots into Wakanda to seek their council even though he was fully aware of the terrible things that they've done to maintain their power. Coates harping on how T'Challa is a scientist at heart but haven't given him but has him many scientific feats and using other people's tech like Doom’s for something that he could've easily invented or have used kimoyo to do. Wakanda, a nation that defeated the Skrulls and repelled the Black Order multiple times is nearly brought to destruction by mooks with guns that had no military leadership.
The MA and Dora who were mentioned for being responsible for the death of legions of Wakandan soldiers don't get punished but are rewarded with their own land even though back in Priest's run T'Challa said he wouldn't do anything like because it'd inspire other tribes to do the same. The MA and Dora aligning with Tetu and Zenzi then breaking it off with them after Shuri threatens them and then don't bother with defending the country they claim to love in the final battle and still get rewarded in the end.
Shuri telling abuse/rape victim that what happened to that they should've been left to die because it wouldn't have mattered as long as Wakanda still stood, and I believe Shuri said something like that not once but twice.[/QUOTE]
What T'Challa did with the MA really isn't all that different from what he's done with M'Baku. M'Baku is a flat out super villain, yet T'Challa allowed him to essentially hang out in the Jabare land unpunished. At least with the MA, they're willing to work with T'CHalla and help Wakanda. Can't say the same for Man Ape, whose been a super villain for decades (though under Priest at least he showed a bit more gray).
If M'Baku was allowed to hang out in the Jabare land unpunished, why is him doing the same with the MA a big deal? Clearly it worked out in everyone's favor as T'CHalla has the Doras helping again, and the Doras have their freedom. Seems like a win win for everyone, unlike M'Baku where he's basically left alone despite being a super villain for reasons.
-
[QUOTE=XPac;3689381]What T'Challa did with the MA really isn't all that different from what he's done with M'Baku. M'Baku is a flat out super villain, yet T'Challa allowed him to essentially hang out in the Jabare land unpunished. At least with the MA, they're willing to work with T'CHalla and help Wakanda. Can't say the same for Man Ape, whose been a super villain for decades (though under Priest at least he showed a bit more gray).
If M'Baku was allowed to hang out in the Jabare land unpunished, why is him doing the same with the MA a big deal? Clearly it worked out in everyone's favor as T'CHalla has the Doras helping again, and the Doras have their freedom. Seems like a win win for everyone, unlike M'Baku where he's basically left alone despite being a super villain for reasons.[/QUOTE]
It is different. M'Baku was initially imprisoned for his past crimes until Nakia freed him. He was then imprisoned again until QDJ freed him and he killed Future Panther which resulted in T'Challa bringing the full force of the rest of Wakanda to Jabari Land for M'Baku and QDJ for killing a king. M'Baku’s fate was never revealed after T'Challa nearly killed QDJ IIRC, but he was likely reimprisoned.
Despite everything that the MA and rogue Dora have done, they have received no punishment for their crimes but rewarded with land that didn't belong to them.
-
[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3689287]I never said it was hating my friend. I said based upon the criticism of this issue alone I'm not sure what BP fans would criticize. you even responded initially by pointing out season 1 got w lot of praise and then went to making wakanda look bad implying the same thing would happen here. we dont know the context of these intergalaruc wakandans taking slaves or any of that. and tchalla lost his memory and fought his way through multiple foreign adversaries and terrain without any memory. all he had was his innate abilities. the biggest criticism I read of season one of some here was that his supporting cast was doing everything, yet in this issue that didnt happen and the credit doesnt go to his mind and creativity but to the art? even when it's way to early to even know what's even going on storyline wise. so again based upon your initial response it seems criticism of this book is being made what he did in season 1 and not necessarily looking at this issue in a self contained fashion. it's more a reflection of your distaste of what he has previously done.[/QUOTE]
[B] Because it's a generic story with a huge reliance on literally turning this Wakandan empire into the European slave trade. Beware said it best:[/B]
[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3685815]Let's talk "world building", shall we?
As mentioned before, the supposedly 2,000 year old Wakandan Empire uses a surprising amount of names from the late 20th century, but not every name comes from the comics. So, Coates must have come up with the other names himself, right?
Wrong. Almost every other name comes from European history, as related to the slave trade.
The planet Goree: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gor%C3%A9e[/url] . Of special note:
[QUOTE]Gorée is known as the location of the House of Slaves (French: Maison des esclaves), built by an Afro-French Métis family about 1780–1784.[/quote]
The Askari troops: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Askari[/url].
[QUOTE]An askari was a local soldier serving in the armies of the European colonial powers in Africa[/QUOTE]
The Maroon rebels: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_(people)[/url]
[QUOTE]Maroons were Africans who had escaped from slavery in the Americas and mixed with the indigenous peoples of the Americas, and formed independent settlements.[/QUOTE]
The starship Mackandal: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Mackandal[/url]
[QUOTE]François Mackandal (died 1758) was a Haitian Maroon leader in Saint-Domingue.[/QUOTE]
The only one I'm not sure of yet is Daoud, the "King-Mule". But it would not shock me if he's a reference to historical slavery as well,
One wonders why Wakandans use so many terms from French/Caribbean history, and not ONE word from an African language....
In short, I was wrong. This isn't a generic sci-fi slave story…
It's a freakin' ALLEGORY. :P
[/QUOTE]
[B]So it's not like these are baseless criticisms[/B]
-
[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689400]It is different. M'Baku was initially imprisoned for his past crimes until Nakia freed him. He was then imprisoned again until QDJ freed him and he killed Future Panther which resulted in T'Challa bringing the full force of the rest of Wakanda to Jabari Land for M'Baku and QDJ for killing a king. M'Baku’s fate was never revealed after T'Challa nearly killed QDJ IIRC, but he was likely reimprisoned.
Despite everything that the MA and rogue Dora have done, they have received no punishment for their crimes but rewarded with land that didn't belong to them.[/QUOTE]
He was free in Hudlins run, so if he was imprisoned he got out. And considering he hangs out in the Jabare land, he wasn't trying all that hard to hide.
And yes, they were given land which previously was held by people who at best were problematic for BP. So again, it was frankly a win win all around. The DM get their freedom, and T'CHalla has turned the Jabare land into allies who actually HELP protect Wakanda. I don't deny there wasn't a degree of risk to his decision... but clearly that decision payed off.
-
[QUOTE=XPac;3689432]He was free in Hudlins run, so if he was imprisoned he got out. And considering he hangs out in the Jabare land, he wasn't trying all that hard to hide.
And yes, they were given land which previously was held by people who at best were problematic for BP. So again, it was frankly a win win all around. The DM get their freedom, and T'CHalla has turned the Jabare land into allies who actually HELP protect Wakanda. I don't deny there wasn't a degree of risk to his decision... but clearly that decision payed off.[/QUOTE]
Hudlin's run pratically ignored most of what happened in Priest's run and during Hudlin's tenure M'Baku hadn't done anything wrong in fact I think his only appearance during Hudlin's run was the wedding and when he's killed.
Most importantly you are ignoring the simple fact that there were consequences for M'Baku's actions. T'Challa didn't pardon him and let go back home during Priest's run. He was arrested twice and possibly a third time.
The MA and Dora killed legions of Wakandan soldiers after openly rebelling, sided with known enemies of Wakanda, and didn't bother with defending the country in the final battle. What consequences did they receive? None. Whereas characters like M'Baku, Hunter, Nakia, and the Desturi all faced some form of consequences for their actions. That's why it's one of the many criticisms of season 1.
What did the Dora needed freedom from? It's established and known that T'Challa won't ask anything of them other than their basic duties, they can leave whenever they want, and joining is a choice, so they weren't forced into anything and they pratically held the most power in Wakanda after the Royal family. Most of the problems could've been avoided if the Dora never went rogue, killed legions of Wakandans, and never sided with Tetu and Zenzi, in fact they would've been dealt with a lot sooner.
Post the MA and Dora taking over, the Jabari weren't turned into allies. They were absent during the final battle against Tetu and Zenzi and I don't remember seeing any during the battle against Klaw and Azania either so they're basically doing the same thing that they were before which was nothing.
-
[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689464]Hudlin's run pratically ignored most of what happened in Priest's run and during Hudlin's tenure M'Baku hadn't done anything wrong in fact I think his only appearance during Hudlin's run was when he's killed.
Most importantly you are ignoring the simple fact that there were consequences for M'Baku's actions. T'Challa didn't pardon him and let go back home during Priest's run. He was arrested twice and possibly a third time.
The MA and Dora killed legions of Wakandan soldiers after openly rebelling, sided with known enemies of Wakanda, and didn't bother with defending the country in the final battle. What consequences did they receive? None. Whereas characters like M'Baku, Hunter, Nakia, and the Desturi all faced some form of consequences for their actions. That's why it's one of the many criticisms of season 1.
What did the Dora needed freedom from? It's established and known that T'Challa won't ask anything of them other than their basic duties, they can leave whenever they want, and joining is a choice, so they weren't forced into anything and they pratically held the most power in Wakanda after the Royal family. Most of the problems could've been avoided if the Dora never went rogue, killed legions of Wakandans, and never sided with Tetu and Zenzi, in fact they would've been dealt with a lot sooner.
Post the MA and Dora taking over, the Jabari weren't turned into allies. They were absent during the final battle against Tetu and Zenzi and I don't remember seeing any during the battle against Klaw and Azania either so they're basically doing the same thing that they were before which was nothing.[/QUOTE]
He also appeared during T'Challa's wedding. He got an invite.
And as far Dora's needing freedom... the system didn't allow them to date, and initially didn't even allow them to speak to anyone else other than T'Challa. They were young teenage girls taken from their homes to be used as political pawns, to try and maintain peace. It was frankly a ridiculous system that needed to be completely eliminated on panel. Which is exactly what this run did.
As far as them fighting Klaw, they helped out.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]66333[/ATTACH]
So like I said, it all worked out for the best. Everyone got what they wanted.
-
[QUOTE=XPac;3689475]He also appeared during T'Challa's wedding. He got an invite.
And as far Dora's needing freedom... the system didn't allow them to date, and initially didn't even allow them to speak to anyone else other than T'Challa. They were young teenage girls taken from their homes to be used as political pawns, to try and maintain peace. It was frankly a ridiculous system that needed to be completely eliminated on panel. Which is exactly what this run did.
As far as them fighting Klaw, they helped out.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]66333[/ATTACH]
So like I said, it all worked out for the best. Everyone got what they wanted.[/QUOTE]
Post Priest only being allowed to speak with the king and possibly not allowed to date have changed. WoW and a previous issued mentioned joining being a choice not to mentioned they were allowed to leave anytime they wanted and they have since been depicted being allowed to speak with other people.
There's no Jabari in the picture only the Dora, they're still not helping like I said, making the MA the rulers pointless so the Jabari weren't turned into allies.
-
[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689498]Post Priest only being allowed to speak with the king and possibly not allowed to date have changed. WoW and a previous issued mentioned joining being a choice not to mentioned they were allowed to leave anytime they wanted and they have since been depicted being allowed to speak with other people.
There's no Jabari in the picture only the Dora, they're still not helping like I said, making the MA the rulers pointless so the Jabari weren't turned into allies.[/QUOTE]
The Doras rule the Jabari land. If the people ruling the Jabari are allies instead of enemies, then the Jabari at worst aren't a problem anymore and at best are now an asset.
And essentialy that's what you have to weight it against. If T'Challa decided to bring the DM to justice (which would have been completey fair to do), then he essentially starts another civil war. It's a civil war he can win, but at the price of more Wakandan life on top of what was already lost. If he allows them to keep the Jabari lands, then they have the potential to become an asset. Which is more benefial than simply killing them or arresting them.
Is it fair? Not entirely But I would argue the benefits of how T'CHalla handled things far out weight the benefits of going on another war, which gains them nothing but more bloodshed.
-
[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689349]Criticisms with season 1 went far beyond BP getting overshadowed by the supporting cast. Rape camps being rampant in Wakanda with T'Challa knowing about them and did nothing, his character traits being given to other characters. The Dora Milaje suddenly feeling oppressed, the lack of good action, T'Challa bringing despots into Wakanda to seek their council even though he was fully aware of the terrible things that they've done to maintain their power. Coates harping on how T'Challa is a scientist at heart but haven't given him but has him many scientific feats and using other people's tech like Doom’s for something that he could've easily invented or have used kimoyo to do. Wakanda, a nation that defeated the Skrulls and repelled the Black Order multiple times is nearly brought to destruction by mooks with guns that had no military leadership.
The MA and Dora who were mentioned for being responsible for the death of legions of Wakandan soldiers don't get punished but are rewarded with their own land even though back in Priest's run T'Challa said he wouldn't do anything like because it'd inspire other tribes to do the same. The MA and Dora aligning with Tetu and Zenzi then breaking it off with them after Shuri threatens them and then don't bother with defending the country they claim to love in the final battle and still get rewarded in the end.
Shuri telling abuse/rape victim that what happened to that they should've been left to die because it wouldn't have mattered as long as Wakanda still stood, and I believe Shuri said something like that not once but twice.[/QUOTE]
You're making way too much sense my dude.