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[QUOTE=XPac;3689514]The Doras rule the Jabari land. If the people ruling the Jabari are allies instead of enemies, then the Jabari at worst aren't a problem anymore and at best are now an asset.
And essentialy that's what you have to weight it against. If T'Challa decided to bring the DM to justice (which would have been completey fair to do), then he essentially starts another civil war. It's a civil war he can win, but at the price of more Wakandan life on top of what was already lost. If he allows them to keep the Jabari lands, then they have the potential to become an asset. Which is more benefial than simply killing them or arresting them.
Is it fair? Not entirely But I would argue the benefits of how T'CHalla handled things far out weight the benefits of going on another war, which gains them nothing but more bloodshed.[/QUOTE]
The Jabari people aren't allies. What has T'Challa gained since their new leadership? Did the Jabari fight against Tetu and Zenzi? No. Did they help fight the Originators? No. Did they help close the portals? No. Did they help fight against Klaw and Azania? No. Did they help fight against the Adversary? No. Coates has had multiple moments to use them as BP's allies and hasn't. With the current story set in the future and space, the Jabari are even less help than they already were.
If the Dora never rebelled in the first place a lot of problems would've been handled with less Wakandan blood being shed instead they chose to spill a lot more. The next time a faction within Wakanda rebels should T'Challa pardon them and give them land after they had taken many lives on the possibility that they could be allies? Maybe T'Challa's other enemies should've just copy what they did.
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[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689573]The Jabari people aren't allies. What has T'Challa gained since their new leadership? Did the Jabari fight against Tetu and Zenzi? No. Did they help fight the Originators? No. Did they help close the portals? No. Did they help fight against Klaw and Azania? No. Did they help fight against the Adversary? No. Coates has had multiple moments to use them as BP's allies and hasn't. With the current story set in the future and space, the Jabari are even less help than they already were.
If the Dora never rebelled in the first place a lot of problems would've been handled with less Wakandan blood being shed instead they chose to spill a lot more. The next time a faction within Wakanda rebels should T'Challa pardon them and give them land after they had taken many lives on the possibility that they could be allies? Maybe T'Challa's other enemies should've just copy what they did.[/QUOTE]
Sure you can argue a lot less problems would have happened if the Doras didn't rebel. Rebellions are troublesome. No one is disputing that. But the question is whether or not T'Challa should have allowed them to rule the Jabari land, or go to war with them and punish them for their crimes. The later is perfectly fair given the situation... but it means likely killing more Wakandans. The former arguably is letting them off the book... but it does mean he gained them as allies again protecting Wakanda. You can certainly argue what T'CHalla did wasnt' fair... but there was more to gain in handling things the way he did than simply by punishing them.
And if T'Challa's enemies copy what the DM did, and become protectors of Wakanda willing to work for him then T'CHalla would probably be okay with that. Because it essentially means they won't be his enemies anymore. They become assets.
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I just realized we never found out what T'challa and Aneka agreed to in their secret off panel conversation that wrapped up the season 1.
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[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689573]The Jabari people aren't allies. What has T'Challa gained since their new leadership? Did the Jabari fight against Tetu and Zenzi? No. Did they help fight the Originators? No. Did they help close the portals? No. Did they help fight against Klaw and Azania? No. Did they help fight against the Adversary? No. Coates has had multiple moments to use them as BP's allies and hasn't. With the current story set in the future and space, the Jabari are even less help than they already were.
If the Dora never rebelled in the first place a lot of problems would've been handled with less Wakandan blood being shed instead they chose to spill a lot more. The next time a faction within Wakanda rebels should T'Challa pardon them and give them land after they had taken many lives on the possibility that they could be allies? Maybe T'Challa's other enemies should've just copy what they did.[/QUOTE]
You last passage illustrates the flawed writing of Coates in the early books. It just makes no sense in conceding to terrorists demands, hell its the official policy of ours and other nations. It's a dumb thing to do on such a basic level. True fans know T'challa written properly would found a better way even if it was something he never thought to plan for. Like Mr. Maj called it early on and even now we still see elements of the fact Coates may be able to somewhat write stories but he doesn't get THIS character.
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[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689349]Criticisms with season 1 went far beyond BP getting overshadowed by the supporting cast. Rape camps being rampant in Wakanda with T'Challa knowing about them and did nothing, his character traits being given to other characters. The Dora Milaje suddenly feeling oppressed, the lack of good action, T'Challa bringing despots into Wakanda to seek their council even though he was fully aware of the terrible things that they've done to maintain their power. Coates harping on how T'Challa is a scientist at heart but haven't given him but has him many scientific feats and using other people's tech like Doom’s for something that he could've easily invented or have used kimoyo to do. Wakanda, a nation that defeated the Skrulls and repelled the Black Order multiple times is nearly brought to destruction by mooks with guns that had no military leadership.
The MA and Dora who were mentioned for being responsible for the death of legions of Wakandan soldiers don't get punished but are rewarded with their own land even though back in Priest's run T'Challa said he wouldn't do anything like because it'd inspire other tribes to do the same. The MA and Dora aligning with Tetu and Zenzi then breaking it off with them after Shuri threatens them and then don't bother with defending the country they claim to love in the final battle and still get rewarded in the end.
Shuri telling abuse/rape victim that what happened to that they should've been left to die because it wouldn't have mattered as long as Wakanda still stood, and I believe Shuri said something like that not once but twice.[/QUOTE]
but what does any of this have to do with how the new issue should be assessed or criticized?
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3689407][B] Because it's a generic story with a huge reliance on literally turning this Wakandan empire into the European slave trade. Beware said it best:[/B]
[B]So it's not like these are baseless criticisms[/B][/QUOTE]
from what I've read and seen this is a brand new take on tchalla stirt fo it is not generic. the parallels that exist to slavery I dont get or understand why its problematic. if fans dont lije that I guess it's a fair criticism but it's still way to early to decide how everything pieces together when we are still just in issue 1.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3689593]Sure you can argue a lot less problems would have happened if the Doras didn't rebel. Rebellions are troublesome. No one is disputing that. But the question is whether or not T'Challa should have allowed them to rule the Jabari land, or go to war with them and punish them for their crimes. The later is perfectly fair given the situation... but it means likely killing more Wakandans. The former arguably is letting them off the book... but it does mean he gained them as allies again protecting Wakanda. You can certainly argue what T'CHalla did wasnt' fair... but there was more to gain in handling things the way he did than simply by punishing them.
And if T'Challa's enemies copy what the DM did, and become protectors of Wakanda willing to work for him then T'CHalla would probably be okay with that. Because it essentially means they won't be his enemies anymore. They become assets.[/QUOTE]
[B] That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of.
The rebellion was stupid. Straight up. BP WoW confirmed how it all went down and it's the MAs fault as they caused all the issues then start acting like woe is me we are the victims when they found out information going on in one of the tribes, decided on Their own to not to move it up the chain of command, decided to handle it themselves, and botched the first mission, Killing a chieftain who was unarmed and should of been easy to detain to bring him to justice.
You know what should of happened? The ma should of been Banished at the very least and the Dora's given a choice. Stay or be banished as well. Especially since the ma willingly chose to ally themselves with known terrorists, and only left when Shuri threatened them with destruction. For all their bravado of protecting Wakanda, in the end, they didn't.
They hid with their tails between their legs, then like a spoiled child or a teenager who thinks they are more mature then they actually are. Threw a fit because T'Challa and the Royal family weren't just going to let them be and give them what they wanted. But then because POS, Tchalla does that. And Even after that on S2 they start off acting like entitled brats.
Also if T'Challas enemies followed suit and he was dumb enough to allow that (kill a bunch of Wakandans and take Wakandan land and want to be protectors) then he would be removed from power in a heartbeat. That is completely ludicrous that you would think it would be a good idea[/B]
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Bottom line:
The Midnight Angels betrayed their oaths, broke Wakandan law, escaped prison, stole classified tech, allied with foreign terrorists, killed a tribal chieftain and claimed the land of another tribe for themselves without any justification whatsoever. And their punishment for it was... a 2-minute apology & getting everything they wanted.
And then, when they actually had to DEFEND the land they claimed, they proved to be utterly hopeless, and had to be rescured by the same "one man" they so virulently decried when it suited them.
Allies like that, Wakanda doesn't need. They remind me of those college students who, afire with political zeal, march in political protests instead of going to class, but go running back to Mommy & Daddy when they discover that they are not only flunking out, but could actually go to jail. :D
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3689989][B] That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of.
The rebellion was stupid. Straight up. BP WoW confirmed how it all went down and it's the MAs fault as they caused all the issues then start acting like woe is me we are the victims when they found out information going on in one of the tribes, decided on Their own to not to move it up the chain of command, decided to handle it themselves, and botched the first mission, Killing a chieftain who was unarmed and should of been easy to detain to bring him to justice.
You know what should of happened? The ma should of been Banished at the very least and the Dora's given a choice. Stay or be banished as well. Especially since the ma willingly chose to ally themselves with known terrorists, and only left when Shuri threatened them with destruction. For all their bravado of protecting Wakanda, in the end, they didn't.
They hid with their tails between their legs, then like a spoiled child or a teenager who thinks they are more mature then they actually are. Threw a fit because T'Challa and the Royal family weren't just going to let them be and give them what they wanted. But then because POS, Tchalla does that. And Even after that on S2 they start off acting like entitled brats.
Also if T'Challas enemies followed suit and he was dumb enough to allow that (kill a bunch of Wakandans and take Wakandan land and want to be protectors) then he would be removed from power in a heartbeat. That is completely ludicrous that you would think it would be a good idea[/B][/QUOTE]
The MA didn't cause the issues. There were clearly rapists before the Doras took matters into their own hands. They didn't create the problem ... If anything they solved it. They she's it in a very questionable manner both legally and morally, but they got results. That's why people got behind them in the first place.
And effectively the DM wanting to separate from Wakanda is banishment. They all wanted to be apart from T'Challas government. But T'Challa wanted to continue working with them because he clearly saw they could still be allies.
As far as T'Challa,being removed from power over what he did with the DM ... clearly he's not removed from power so that doesn't seen to be a problem.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3689986]from what I've read and seen this is a brand new take on tchalla stirt fo it is not generic. the parallels that exist to slavery I dont get or understand why its problematic. if fans dont lije that I guess it's a fair criticism but it's still way to early to decide how everything pieces together when we are still just in issue 1.[/QUOTE]
[B]It's a new direction, but the story itself is such a generic sci-fi plot, that everything in it is literally interchangeable with any other sci-fi franchise.
The fact that Coates has gone from not so subtle analogues and tired tropes of a western view of Africa and
then literally making early Wakandans into pilgrims to signify they are no better then anyone else, to a very heavy handed story of Wakandan galactic empire being a literal allegory for European slave trade, using actual European names and locations for the story..
If you seriously can't see why Wakanda, the very definition of afrofuturism, Black excellence, and Black potential being used in this manner is problematic? Then I don't know what else to tell you, there is a reason why BP enthusiasts aren't happy about it, while Coates fans and unfans would enjoy it (those who lack real knowledge of Bp and those who love to read black dysfunction in Wakanda because they think BP is a Mary Sue)
[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690024][B]It's a new direction, but the story itself is such a generic sci-fi plot, that everything in it is literally interchangeable with any other sci-fi franchise.
The fact that Coates has gone from not so subtle analogues and tired tropes of a western view of Africa and
then literally making early Wakandans into pilgrims to signify they are no better then anyone else, to a very heavy handed story of Wakandan galactic empire being a literal allegory for European slave trade, using actual European names and locations for the story..
If you seriously can't see why Wakanda, the very definition of afrofuturism, Black excellence, and Black potential being used in this manner is problematic? Then I don't know what else to tell you, there is a reason why BP enthusiasts aren't happy about it, while Coates fans and unfans would enjoy it (those who lack real knowledge of Bp and those who love to read black dysfunction in Wakanda because they think BP is a Mary Sue)
[/B][/QUOTE]
Honestly I think the arguement rhat anyone who likes Coates is an u fan or not an enthusiast is pretty shallow. Fans can have differing opinions.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690023]The MA didn't cause the issues. There were clearly rapists before the Doras took matters into their own hands. They didn't create the problem ... If anything they solved it. They she's it in a very questionable manner both legally and morally, but they got results. That's why people got behind them in the first place.
And effectively the DM wanting to separate from Wakanda is banishment. They all wanted to be apart from T'Challas government. But T'Challa wanted to continue working with them because he clearly saw they could still be allies.
As far as T'Challa,being removed from power over what he did with the DM ... clearly he's not removed from power so that doesn't seen to be a problem.[/QUOTE]
[B]Your (poorly) attempting to counter my point.
The MA did cause the issue actually. BP WoW confirms this. The reason Aneka is in jail and the no one man crap starts is because they didn't report valuable information up the chatof command, they decided to ttit upon themselves and failed to bring the accused into for proper justice. When they are then having to deal with the consequences of breaking the law, they claim that they are the victims and it's actually the governments fault for not handling it (even though they are apart of said government and didn't report it) then go on to side with terrorists, impede on another tribes territory and do a hostile take over, and then ally with terrorists who are killing the people they claim to be protecting.
Had they reported it, then T'Challa would of handled it and it would of been done with in a way that didn't cause a ton of blood shed.
And no, banishment is not staying in Wakanda and getting to keep land from a hostile take over from a different tribe. Banishment is being removed from Wakanda. It's not getting everything you wanted after breaking the law, and killing your neighbors. And the fact Coates makes Tchalla make such a stupid decision is also trouble some because they are are not reliable allies.. especially because when the story started guess what? They were allies. So turning allies turned enemies back into allies are not a group you want to be working with if your smart. Because they are trustworthy.
And if you actually read what I said, I said he would be removed from power of he started allowing enemies of Wakanda to kill Wakandans then turn them into allies after giving them exactly what they wanted[/B]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690051]Honestly I think the arguement rhat anyone who likes Coates is an u fan or not an enthusiast is pretty shallow. Fans can have differing opinions.[/QUOTE]
Fans attacking other fans is a pretty staple thing. No one “fandom” seems above taking part in it.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690063][B]Your (poorly) attempting to counter my point.
The MA did cause the issue actually. BP WoW confirms this. The reason Aneka is in jail and the no one man crap starts is because they didn't report valuable information up the chatof command, they decided to ttit upon themselves and failed to bring the accused into for proper justice. When they are then having to deal with the consequences of breaking the law, they claim that they are the victims and it's actually the governments fault for not handling it (even though they are apart of said government and didn't report it) then go on to side with terrorists, impede on another tribes territory and do a hostile take over, and then ally with terrorists who are killing the people they claim to be protecting.
Had they reported it, then T'Challa would of handled it and it would of been done with in a way that didn't cause a ton of blood shed.
And no, banishment is not staying in Wakanda and getting to keep land from a hostile take over from a different tribe. Banishment is being removed from Wakanda. It's not getting everything you wanted after breaking the law, and killing your neighbors. And the fact Coates makes Tchalla make such a stupid decision is also trouble some because they are are not reliable allies.. especially because when the story started guess what? They were allies. So turning allies turned enemies back into allies are not a group you want to be working with if your smart. Because they are trustworthy.
And if you actually read what I said, I said he would be removed from power of he started allowing enemies of Wakanda to kill Wakandans then turn them into allies after giving them exactly what they wanted[/B][/QUOTE]
You didn't say enemies of Wakanda... you said enemies. Something the MA were at the time. They killed Wakandans, took land, and were turned into allies without him being removed from power. Which is fine since it worked out better for everyone anyways.
And I certainly agree the MA started the rebellion ... But they aren't the cause of the actual problem. The actual rapists were.
Would allowing the Wakandan government handle it have led to less blood. But that's part of the reason the MA got the following they did. They dealt with it Punished style and made the problem go away.
As far as whether or not they are trustworthy... We will see. That's up to Coates I suppose. They seem trustworthy enough to get their own one shot books.
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Why did the men of Wakanda become weaklings to the point that rape was an avenue? Why did a Wakandan chief engage in attacking young fictional girls? Did the fictional men feel powerless in the aftermath of Namor's flood and The Cabal scorching of Wakanda? Do they need counselling sessions like some real world churches conduct to talk about male problems? Why was a gender war necessary in the first place?
[url]http://www.uh.edu/socialwork/news/news-releases/2015-06-10_McPhail_FFP.pdf[/url]
"Beverly McPhail (link is external) of the University of Houston seeks to knit together several feminist theories of rape into a new comprehensive model. In a useful and poignant reminder that the political is personal, she notes that rape is both “a political, aggregate act whereby men as a group dominate and control women as a group"
Don't worry. When I want my 'warrior nation' fix, I turn on 300 just to hear the answer to 'Spartans ...what is your profession?"
Or I will go to the multiplex to hear the call and answer of 'Yibambe' by a warrior nation in Infinity War.