[QUOTE=JediKage;2220928]And T'Challa. But who cares Wakanda is winning on points.[/QUOTE]
I'm glad Stane told us or we would have never known.
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[QUOTE=JediKage;2220928]And T'Challa. But who cares Wakanda is winning on points.[/QUOTE]
I'm glad Stane told us or we would have never known.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2220975]It's great that you like this story as I'm not trying to change anyone's mind who does like it. Some people enjoy it, some don't.
Whether you're heavily invested in Wakanda or not some people are and this story isn't doing it any favors. There is a chance of irreparable damage being done. It took years and someone else taking over the role before Hal got a 2nd chance and some people [I]still[/I] prefer John Stewart over him. The damage to Tony Stark still lingers as fans and other characters still see him as untrustworthy.
And to be quite frank, Black Panther is not bulletproof. He can't take the hits some other well established characters can. Has hasn't had long running series where retcons, wash away some the undesirable storylines.
Peter parker can survive The Clone Saga.
T'Challa can't take these kinds of hits on a continuous basis, especially when he's endured 7 years of this. And with CA:CW and the movie generating buzz and interest in the character, why lead off a new series with this bs of a story. Too many of us in this thread have said that neither T'Challa nor Wakanda are perfect and we don't expect it to be. But it sure ain't what Coates is shoveling right now.[/QUOTE]
I don't think marvel really has the same concept of damage as you might.
You say that Stark was damaged in Civil War, with trust issues lingering to this day. But really I think there are trust issues with Stark because writers simply like having those trust issues there. They could have easily magically waved it all gone if they chose to, but they didn't because I think marvel frankly finds Stark more interesting that way. It's the whole feet of clay thing.
I think what you consider damage is in marvels eyes flaws that simply make for more interesting storytelling. Granted what is or isn't interesting is subjective... but in the end all any marvel writer can do is write stories they themselves would want to read and HOPE readers feel the same to the degree that it translates into a financially sucessful book.
[QUOTE=XPac;2221060]I don't think marvel really has the same concept of damage as you might.
You say that Stark was damaged in Civil War, with trust issues lingering to this day. But really I think there are trust issues with Stark because writers simply like having those trust issues there. They could have easily magically waved it all gone if they chose to, but they didn't because I think marvel frankly finds Stark more interesting that way. It's the whole feet of clay thing.
I think what you consider damage is in marvels eyes flaws that simply make for more interesting storytelling. Granted what is or isn't interesting is subjective... but in the end all any marvel writer can do is write stories they themselves would want to read and HOPE readers feel the same to the degree that it translates into a financially sucessful book.[/QUOTE]
Rape camps and systematic abuse of women is not a character flaw.
And as far as Tony Stark, Michelinie and Layton did a great job of giving Tony "feet of clay" without criminalizing him in the process. So did Fraction.
[QUOTE=keeen;2219512]A nice response, well-detailed and argued, and one which helps put things in better perspective. I don't read the events so I wasn't aware that SWII ended on such a drastically different tone from where Coates started his story. I was generously assuming Coates might be setting out to repair previous writers' damage, so to speak, but it sounds like he's inflicted much of his own from the outset.
Yikes...here's hoping he doesn't write THAT story.
I've definitely got the impression that Coates is kind of channeling his own broader social commentaries on geopolitics THROUGH Black Panther, and I can see how ignoring the character's and setting's established mythos in order to do that would be a disservice to longtime fans.
The aspects of Coates' story that I've been most intrigued by were basically the politics and history of Wakanda and it's neighbors (that map at the end of issue 4 got me really excited). Which writer's run would you say delves into those aspects, while still being accessible to a reader with very little background knowledge?
The only thing holding me back from diving deeper into the previous discussions on this thread is that most people posting have a near-encyclopedic knowledge of the background, characters, developments, and different runs. Most of the references fly right over my head (like the recent discussion of casting Killmonger...I have no idea who that is).
I certainly don't begrudge anybody for calling bs on the current run: it's all fair game when you've invested a lot of time, money, and passion into a character and some writer (or several in a row) comes along and fucks them up.
Thanks for the responses, including the ones I didn't directly respond to.[/QUOTE]
Hi Keeen, thanks for the acknowledgement and understanding as to where I was coming from.
Much appreciated on all levels. :cool:
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2221079]Rape camps and abuse of women is not a character flaw.
And as far as Tony Stark, Michelinie and Layton did a great job of giving Tony "feet of clay" without criminalizing him in the process. So did Fraction.[/QUOTE]
Say what you want about Civil War criminalizing Stark, but Iron Man as a franchise did nothing but grow during and after Civil War. I think from marvels perspective the damage wasn't very damaging... hence why they given writers never bothered shying away from it. Civil War didn't destory the character... it essentially make him ARGUABLY the most important character in the marvel universe. And hes stayed roughly at that level ever since. Not that I'm giving all or even the lions share of the credit to Civil War... but that was his coming out party and it certainly didn't slow down his meteoric rise in the least.
And honestly I'd argue the same thing is occuring with Black Panther as we speak. He's got a movie down the pike, accompanied by a top selling solo book and a second book just around the corner. For all the alleged damage some might perceive is happening, I honestly think marvel is pretty darn happy with how things are going at least so far. We'll see if that changes or not. But I think the issue is less that there's any measurable damage actually occuring and more that they're simply telling stories some don't happen to like.
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;2220524]And what a monumental bit of storytelling that's been. Though the book could exist simply on the premise of "The Incursions happened, but they happened to every other universe but ours, and their survivors wound up on our earth at a a point before the Incursions which were headed off by T'Challa and Reed Richards. Our earth has changed slightly by the addition of survivors from other worlds and certain events may have been changed as well."
Eh. See above for what could have been the answer to Hickman's run. For Black Panther-specific bits, if Reed has been the decoy and T'Challa the final man then you could have rewritten his history to make it so characters didn't die or events didn't happen. Imagine if Namor hadn't flooded Wakanda, or T'Challa's various male lieutenants hadn't been killed off or his cousins and uncles hadn't died or if he chose to bring his father back from the dead, anything else that's bothered you about the mythology.
Imagine ending Hickman's run on a picture of T'Challa meeting his father alive and his father (unaware of all of Hickman's run) simply greets his son as one does their child. After all the heartache and trouble he had with the previous Panthers (WHICH MADE NO GODDAMN SENSE WHEN THE PANTHER GOD TOLD HIM TO SADDLE THE **** UP), with Wakandans dying left and right, with un-fans taking shots, with the fiasco that was the Storm marriage, we get this revert of sorts to set things right (and tie into the MCU a bit).
Imagine all that, imagine that ending....
And then imagine at the very bottom in text...
Coming soon...
Black Panther (main book, T'Challa doing cool ****)
Black Panther: Alpha Flight (the space program book)
Black Panther: World of Wakanda (A Shuri book that focuses on her in Wakanda and fleshes out the country and setting in a respectful manner)
And imagine if those books were staggered to coincide with Civil War and after.
Just imagine.[/QUOTE]
Excellent post my friend.
I could see me reading the hell out of BP books in line with what you've described here.
Afro-futurist to the core. :cool:
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2220975]It's great that you like this story as I'm not trying to change anyone's mind who does like it. Some people enjoy it, some don't.
Whether you're heavily invested in Wakanda or not some people are and this story isn't doing it any favors. There is a chance of irreparable damage being done. It took years and someone else taking over the role before Hal got a 2nd chance and some people [I]still[/I] prefer John Stewart over him. The damage to Tony Stark still lingers as fans and other characters still see him as untrustworthy.
And to be quite frank, Black Panther is not bulletproof. He can't take the hits some other well established characters can. Has hasn't had long running series where retcons, wash away some the undesirable storylines.
Peter parker can survive The Clone Saga.
T'Challa can't take these kinds of hits on a continuous basis, especially when he's endured 7 years of this. And with CA:CW and the movie generating buzz and interest in the character, why lead off a new series with this bs of a story. Too many of us in this thread have said that neither T'Challa nor Wakanda are perfect and we don't expect it to be. But it sure ain't what Coates is shoveling right now.[/QUOTE]
Agreed 100%.
It never ceases to amaze me how some choose to mischaracterize readers who would like to see a more afro-futurist aesthetic realised within and through the BP mythos, as being desperate for the depiction of an "utopia" and supposedly "perfect T'Challa."
Every BP run from Christopher J Priest's straight through to David Liss's has featured a (far from perfect) T'Challa dealing with trials and tribulations so where get this false narrative of a "perfect" T'Challa from is beyond me.
Wakanda is described both within the Marvel comic and movie universe, as being the most technologically advanced nation in the MU but no one at any point has said that this equates to their society as being utopian but once again, that false (and frankly, misdirectional) narrative keeps getting pushed by some as fact for reasons that don't bear up well under scrutiny.
As you've astutely pointed out, there are some of us who'd really like to see the kind of ideas embodied here........
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/x5drit.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/2nav9mr.jpg[/IMG]
explored in greater depth and I for one see no reason why wanting to see the BP mythos grow exponentially should be sneered at by anybody.
I suppose a storyline exploring T'Challa and Wakanda making good on the promise to expand outwards beyond Earths confines, is a bit to far fetched for some to comprehend where a fictional African super power is concerned.
But insurrection and rape camps?
Of course.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2221110]Excellent post my friend.
I could see me reading the hell out of BP books in line with what you've described here.
Afro-futurist to the core. :cool:[/QUOTE]
You know, I'm really curious as to what people want exactly out of T'Challa and Wakanda.
Because when I got into the Black Panther mythos, I was a kid who grew up reading King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table and Robin Hood, who identified with T'Challa because he was a king and I lived in a country with a well respected royal family, who identified with Wakanda not because it was African or African-American but because it was distinctly Other, a vision of a world I recognized much better than the one Hollywood showed me of America. And even then, what Hollywood showed me of America didn't hinder my perception of a black superhero, because my examples of black heroes were played by actors like Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Michael Jae White, Wesley Snipes and Samuel L. Jackson. They were cool, they were funny and they were badass. Halle Berre as Storm was probably a shining light for me in the terrible X-Men films, though I'll freely admit it was more of a crush than a fandom (got me to watch Catwoman at least, and I still maintain she could have pulled off Selina Kyle and probably race-lifted the character as a result).
I don't know. To me the King and Wakanda are one and no more is that emphasized in what Wakanda does. T'Challa's most striking establishing trait in Priest wasn't anything on arc where he beat up drug dealers or fought a kung-fu dragon, but rather the fact that he was raising up Wakanda beyond it's own isolationism and ideals. The shot of QDJ seeing a modern city and getting emotional because it was a city of black people that was a peer to any other great city in the world hit harder than anything because I look all around me and see what the Third World can be like, and what the Black Panther can evoke in not only Africans but Arabs and Asians and Latin Americans, etc..., that sort of sense that greatness isn't preordained but innately had. What he did himself was replicated by Killmonger but not by M'Baku and the differences become key and stark when you notice it, that argument for traditionalism or separatism in the face of a newer more hopeful reality.
And when you take those themes, when you take those ideals and when you take those visuals and symbols and you place them in the good old fashioned realm of right versus wrong, good versus evil and superheroes versus supervillains, then you can get wonders beyond wonders.
I would have paid good money to see Black Panther initiate an "Alpha Flight" project that sees Wakanda goes into the stars. What harm could it have done, to see it so? New alien species discovered, the origins of vibranium, the trials and tribulations of a colony ship sent to found New Wakanda...
That would have been groundbreaking, in more ways than one.
But instead we get rape camps and human trafficking. Because I can't walk or drive an hour or two from my house and see that ****, because I don't know refugees galore who fled Iraq or Syria and left everything behind. Because I have to have that in my comics, where I look for escapism and heroism rather than defeatism and division.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2220975]It's great that you like this story as I'm not trying to change anyone's mind who does like it. Some people enjoy it, some don't.
Whether you're heavily invested in Wakanda or not some people are and this story isn't doing it any favors. There is a chance of irreparable damage being done. It took years and someone else taking over the role before Hal got a 2nd chance and some people [I]still[/I] prefer John Stewart over him. The damage to Tony Stark still lingers as fans and other characters still see him as untrustworthy.
And to be quite frank, Black Panther is not bulletproof. He can't take the hits some other well established characters can. Has hasn't had long running series where retcons, wash away some the undesirable storylines.
Peter parker can survive The Clone Saga.
T'Challa can't take these kinds of hits on a continuous basis, especially when he's endured 7 years of this. And with CA:CW and the movie generating buzz and interest in the character, why lead off a new series with this bs of a story. Too many of us in this thread have said that neither T'Challa nor Wakanda are perfect and we don't expect it to be. But it sure ain't what Coates is shoveling right now.[/QUOTE]
Yup. This was the time to make T'Challa bulletproof. Not take more shots at him. Coates, not being a long time BP fan, is, and still seems, tone deaf to T'Challas overall place in the Marvel narrative as well as his overall place in pop culture. He could have offered up some nurturing and care in a positive arc before bringing back the minor chords long time fans are tired of hearing.
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;2220524]And what a monumental bit of storytelling that's been. Though the book could exist simply on the premise of "The Incursions happened, but they happened to every other universe but ours, and their survivors wound up on our earth at a a point before the Incursions which were headed off by T'Challa and Reed Richards. Our earth has changed slightly by the addition of survivors from other worlds and certain events may have been changed as well."
Eh. See above for what could have been the answer to Hickman's run. For Black Panther-specific bits, if Reed has been the decoy and T'Challa the final man then you could have rewritten his history to make it so characters didn't die or events didn't happen. Imagine if Namor hadn't flooded Wakanda, or T'Challa's various male lieutenants hadn't been killed off or his cousins and uncles hadn't died or if he chose to bring his father back from the dead, anything else that's bothered you about the mythology.
Imagine ending Hickman's run on a picture of T'Challa meeting his father alive and his father (unaware of all of Hickman's run) simply greets his son as one does their child. After all the heartache and trouble he had with the previous Panthers (WHICH MADE NO GODDAMN SENSE WHEN THE PANTHER GOD TOLD HIM TO SADDLE THE **** UP), with Wakandans dying left and right, with un-fans taking shots, with the fiasco that was the Storm marriage, we get this revert of sorts to set things right (and tie into the MCU a bit).
Imagine all that, imagine that ending....
And then imagine at the very bottom in text...
Coming soon...
Black Panther (main book, T'Challa doing cool ****)
Black Panther: Alpha Flight (the space program book)
Black Panther: World of Wakanda (A Shuri book that focuses on her in Wakanda and fleshes out the country and setting in a respectful manner)
And imagine if those books were staggered to coincide with Civil War and after.
Just imagine.[/QUOTE]
I can imagine. The issue is there are a lot of people who simply can't.
Smh
[QUOTE=Rumble;2220552]Ehhh... i dont know how i feel about t'challa bein a bad ass who actually wins at the end of the day and gets his just due that carries over into more great things.
Open up that can of worms and who knows what type of **** could spiral out of that :eek:
Just sayin[/QUOTE]
Rather read about rape camp and tree houses. Smfh
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2221147]Agreed 100%.
It never ceases to amaze me how some choose to mischaracterize readers who would like to see a more afro-futurist aesthetic realised within and through the BP mythos, as being desperate for the depiction of an "utopia" and supposedly "perfect T'Challa."
Every BP run from Christopher J Priest's straight through to David Liss's has featured a (far from perfect) T'Challa dealing with trials and tribulations so where get this false narrative of a "perfect" T'Challa from is beyond me.
Wakanda is described both within the Marvel comic and movie universe, as being the most technologically advanced nation in the MU but no one at any point has said that this equates to their society as being utopian but once again, that false (and frankly, misdirectional) narrative keeps getting pushed by some as fact for reasons that don't bear up well under scrutiny.
As you've astutely pointed out, there are some of us who'd really like to see the kind of ideas embodied here........
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/x5drit.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/2nav9mr.jpg[/IMG]
explored in greater depth and I for one see no reason why wanting to see the BP mythos grow exponentially should be sneered at by anybody.
I suppose a storyline exploring T'Challa and Wakanda making good on the promise to expand outwards beyond Earths confines, is a bit to far fetched for some to comprehend where a fictional African super power is concerned.
But insurrection and rape camps?
Of course.[/QUOTE]
You're spot on BCB. Perfection is something some of us never saw or wanted out of a Black Panther comic. What we wanted was the idea realized of a society of African people forging a path like no other and not to be held back because, "it's too much" or "it's not realism". Those are weak excuses that limit what can be done with a character who frankly has one of the highest ceilings of any Marvel character right now. Instead, we get a 3rd World Wakanda dealing with home grown terrorism, rape camps and topping it off with a king made to look inept, ineffective and very uninspiring. Yay.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2221147]Agreed 100%.
It never ceases to amaze me how some choose to mischaracterize readers who would like to see a more afro-futurist aesthetic realised within and through the BP mythos, as being desperate for the depiction of an "utopia" and supposedly "perfect T'Challa."
Every BP run from Christopher J Priest's straight through to David Liss's has featured a (far from perfect) T'Challa dealing with trials and tribulations so where get this false narrative of a "perfect" T'Challa from is beyond me.
Wakanda is described both within the Marvel comic and movie universe, as being the most technologically advanced nation in the MU but no one at any point has said that this equates to their society as being utopian but once again, that false (and frankly, misdirectional) narrative keeps getting pushed by some as fact for reasons that don't bear up well under scrutiny.
As you've astutely pointed out, there are some of us who'd really like to see the kind of ideas embodied here........
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/x5drit.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/2nav9mr.jpg[/IMG]
explored in greater depth and I for one see no reason why wanting to see the BP mythos grow exponentially should be sneered at by anybody.
I suppose a storyline exploring T'Challa and Wakanda making good on the promise to expand outwards beyond Earths confines, is a bit to far fetched for some to comprehend where a fictional African super power is concerned.
But insurrection and rape camps?
Of course.[/QUOTE]fl
Funny what is acceptable.
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;2221196]You know, I'm really curious as to what people want exactly out of T'Challa and Wakanda.
Because when I got into the Black Panther mythos, I was a kid who grew up reading King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table and Robin Hood, who identified with T'Challa because he was a king and I lived in a country with a well respected royal family, who identified with Wakanda not because it was African or African-American but because it was distinctly Other, a vision of a world I recognized much better than the one Hollywood showed me of America. And even then, what Hollywood showed me of America didn't hinder my perception of a black superhero, because my examples of black heroes were played by actors like Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Michael Jae White, Wesley Snipes and Samuel L. Jackson. They were cool, they were funny and they were badass. Halle Berre as Storm was probably a shining light for me in the terrible X-Men films, though I'll freely admit it was more of a crush than a fandom (got me to watch Catwoman at least, and I still maintain she could have pulled off Selina Kyle and probably race-lifted the character as a result).
I don't know. To me the King and Wakanda are one and no more is that emphasized in what Wakanda does. T'Challa's most striking establishing trait in Priest wasn't anything on arc where he beat up drug dealers or fought a kung-fu dragon, but rather the fact that he was raising up Wakanda beyond it's own isolationism and ideals. The shot of QDJ seeing a modern city and getting emotional because it was a city of black people that was a peer to any other great city in the world hit harder than anything because I look all around me and see what the Third World can be like, and what the Black Panther can evoke in not only Africans but Arabs and Asians and Latin Americans, etc..., that sort of sense that greatness isn't preordained but innately had. What he did himself was replicated by Killmonger but not by M'Baku and the differences become key and stark when you notice it, that argument for traditionalism or separatism in the face of a newer more hopeful reality.
And when you take those themes, when you take those ideals and when you take those visuals and symbols and you place them in the good old fashioned realm of right versus wrong, good versus evil and superheroes versus supervillains, then you can get wonders beyond wonders.
I would have paid good money to see Black Panther initiate an "Alpha Flight" project that sees Wakanda goes into the stars. What harm could it have done, to see it so? New alien species discovered, the origins of vibranium, the trials and tribulations of a colony ship sent to found New Wakanda...
That would have been groundbreaking, in more ways than one.
But instead we get rape camps and human trafficking. Because I can't walk or drive an hour or two from my house and see that ****, because I don't know refugees galore who fled Iraq or Syria and left everything behind. Because I have to have that in my comics, where I look for escapism and heroism rather than defeatism and division.[/QUOTE]
I agree with your assessment 100% Mr Hash. This was the time to have T'Challa, Shuri and Wakanda step to the forefront and lead the world.
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;2221196]You know, I'm really curious as to what people want exactly out of T'Challa and Wakanda.
Because when I got into the Black Panther mythos, I was a kid who grew up reading King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table and Robin Hood, who identified with T'Challa because he was a king and I lived in a country with a well respected royal family, who identified with Wakanda not because it was African or African-American but because it was distinctly Other, a vision of a world I recognized much better than the one Hollywood showed me of America. And even then, what Hollywood showed me of America didn't hinder my perception of a black superhero, because my examples of black heroes were played by actors like Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Michael Jae White, Wesley Snipes and Samuel L. Jackson. They were cool, they were funny and they were badass. Halle Berre as Storm was probably a shining light for me in the terrible X-Men films, though I'll freely admit it was more of a crush than a fandom (got me to watch Catwoman at least, and I still maintain she could have pulled off Selina Kyle and probably race-lifted the character as a result).
I don't know. To me the King and Wakanda are one and no more is that emphasized in what Wakanda does. T'Challa's most striking establishing trait in Priest wasn't anything on arc where he beat up drug dealers or fought a kung-fu dragon, but rather the fact that he was raising up Wakanda beyond it's own isolationism and ideals. The shot of QDJ seeing a modern city and getting emotional because it was a city of black people that was a peer to any other great city in the world hit harder than anything because I look all around me and see what the Third World can be like, and what the Black Panther can evoke in not only Africans but Arabs and Asians and Latin Americans, etc..., that sort of sense that greatness isn't preordained but innately had. What he did himself was replicated by Killmonger but not by M'Baku and the differences become key and stark when you notice it, that argument for traditionalism or separatism in the face of a newer more hopeful reality.
And when you take those themes, when you take those ideals and when you take those visuals and symbols and you place them in the good old fashioned realm of right versus wrong, good versus evil and superheroes versus supervillains, then you can get wonders beyond wonders.
I would have paid good money to see Black Panther initiate an "Alpha Flight" project that sees Wakanda goes into the stars. What harm could it have done, to see it so? New alien species discovered, the origins of vibranium, the trials and tribulations of a colony ship sent to found New Wakanda...
That would have been groundbreaking, in more ways than one.
But instead we get rape camps and human trafficking. Because I can't walk or drive an hour or two from my house and see that ****, because I don't know refugees galore who fled Iraq or Syria and left everything behind. Because I have to have that in my comics, where I look for escapism and heroism rather than defeatism and division.[/QUOTE]
Can't be better said...
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2220975]It's great that you like this story as I'm not trying to change anyone's mind who does like it. Some people enjoy it, some don't.
Whether you're heavily invested in Wakanda or not some people are and this story isn't doing it any favors. There is a chance of irreparable damage being done. It took years and someone else taking over the role before Hal got a 2nd chance and some people [I]still[/I] prefer John Stewart over him. The damage to Tony Stark still lingers as fans and other characters still see him as untrustworthy.
And to be quite frank, Black Panther is not bulletproof. He can't take the hits some other well established characters can. Has hasn't had long running series where retcons, wash away some the undesirable storylines.
Peter parker can survive The Clone Saga.
T'Challa can't take these kinds of hits on a continuous basis, especially when he's endured 7 years of this. And with CA:CW and the movie generating buzz and interest in the character, why lead off a new series with this bs of a story. Too many of us in this thread have said that neither T'Challa nor Wakanda are perfect and we don't expect it to be. But it sure ain't what Coates is shoveling right now.[/QUOTE]
Well said. I agree 100%.
I could care less what anyone likes and I'm not trying to convince anyone either. My sensiblities will never align with garbage bs imagery, dysfunction and Demonizing. Like we don't see enough of that all ready.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2221263]You're spot on BCB. Perfection is something some of us never saw or wanted out of a Black Panther comic. What we wanted was the idea realized of a society of African people forging a path like no other and not to be held back because, "it's too much" or "it's not realism". [/QUOTE]
You know, I want to find the person who first came up with the idea that all comics need to be "realistic" and punch him or her in the face.
The idea that comics are supposed to hold up a mirror to the real world is fine, but when you apply it to [B]all[/B] comics, you take away the very sense of wonder and hope that made comics popular in the first place.
I'm reminded of a lovely line from a Grant Morrison book, written for the other guys:
"These 'No-Nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Comics are a medium that can explore ideas too crazy (or expensive) to do in almost any other form. So why do so many people want to wallow in the darkness?
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;2221221]Yup. This was the time to make T'Challa bulletproof. Not take more shots at him. Coates, not being a long time BP fan, is, and still seems, tone deaf to T'Challas overall place in the Marvel narrative as well as his overall place in pop culture. He could have offered up some nurturing and care in a positive arc before bringing back the minor chords long time fans are tired of hearing.[/QUOTE]
Definitely. This was the perfect chance to move T'Challa forward. And I meant what I said too. T'Challa is not bulletproof. There are storylines that can do serious damage and I think that this is one of them. He doesn't have years of feats to rely on, he doesn't have the level op popularity some other characters have and he doesn't have the credibility of having one writer doing a frakked up story and having another immediately come in behind to fix the mess left behind. This stuff will last with him longer than most.
[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;2221196]You know, I'm really curious as to what people want exactly out of T'Challa and Wakanda.
Because when I got into the Black Panther mythos, I was a kid who grew up reading King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table and Robin Hood, who identified with T'Challa because he was a king and I lived in a country with a well respected royal family, who identified with Wakanda not because it was African or African-American but because it was distinctly Other, a vision of a world I recognized much better than the one Hollywood showed me of America. And even then, what Hollywood showed me of America didn't hinder my perception of a black superhero, because my examples of black heroes were played by actors like Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Michael Jae White, Wesley Snipes and Samuel L. Jackson. They were cool, they were funny and they were badass. Halle Berre as Storm was probably a shining light for me in the terrible X-Men films, though I'll freely admit it was more of a crush than a fandom (got me to watch Catwoman at least, and I still maintain she could have pulled off Selina Kyle and probably race-lifted the character as a result).
I don't know. To me the King and Wakanda are one and no more is that emphasized in what Wakanda does. T'Challa's most striking establishing trait in Priest wasn't anything on arc where he beat up drug dealers or fought a kung-fu dragon, but rather the fact that he was raising up Wakanda beyond it's own isolationism and ideals. The shot of QDJ seeing a modern city and getting emotional because it was a city of black people that was a peer to any other great city in the world hit harder than anything because I look all around me and see what the Third World can be like, and what the Black Panther can evoke in not only Africans but Arabs and Asians and Latin Americans, etc..., that sort of sense that greatness isn't preordained but innately had. What he did himself was replicated by Killmonger but not by M'Baku and the differences become key and stark when you notice it, that argument for traditionalism or separatism in the face of a newer more hopeful reality.
And when you take those themes, when you take those ideals and when you take those visuals and symbols and you place them in the good old fashioned realm of right versus wrong, good versus evil and superheroes versus supervillains, then you can get wonders beyond wonders.
I would have paid good money to see Black Panther initiate an "Alpha Flight" project that sees Wakanda goes into the stars. What harm could it have done, to see it so? New alien species discovered, the origins of vibranium, the trials and tribulations of a colony ship sent to found New Wakanda...
That would have been groundbreaking, in more ways than one.
But instead we get rape camps and human trafficking. Because I can't walk or drive an hour or two from my house and see that ****, because I don't know refugees galore who fled Iraq or Syria and left everything behind. Because I have to have that in my comics, where I look for escapism and heroism rather than defeatism and division.[/QUOTE]
Great Post.
I will say again. I'm disappointed with Coates. He should know better. But he's digging in, because people enabling this crap and because black dysfunction, negativity sells! Our reasoning is SOUND!
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2221292]Well said. I agree 100%.
I could care less what anyone likes and I'm not trying to convince anyone either. [B]My sensiblities will never align with garbage bs imagery, dysfunction and Demonizing. Like we don't see enough of that all ready.[/B][/QUOTE]
That's what really bugs all of us. Why not take this huge opportunity and do something forward thinking instead of going backwards. Wakanda had a great queen in Shuri so what's all this misogynistic crap? The Doras and MA were badass warriors like the Valkyries of Asgard so what's this crap about women being held back and held down? This book should have been a Sci-Fi journey tackling complex issues as Wakanda advanced itself as a world leader in space exploration and humans role in the cosmic landscape.
[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2221297]You know, I want to find the person who first came up with the idea that all comics need to be "realistic" and punch him or her in the face.
The idea that comics are supposed to hold up a mirror to the real world is fine, but when you apply it to [B]all[/B] comics, you take away the very sense of wonder and hope that made comics popular in the first place.
I'm reminded of a lovely line from a Grant Morrison book, written for the other guys:
[B]"These 'No-Nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."[/B]
Comics are a medium that can explore ideas too crazy (or expensive) to do in almost any other form. So why do so many people want to wallow in the darkness?[/QUOTE]
Great line. We just came out of 3 years of doom and gloom with Everything Dies and Time Runs Out. We had T'Challa and the rest take down one dictator in Doom only to have Coates turn it around and have T'Challa falsely appear as a dictator.
[QUOTE=XPac;2221104]Say what you want about Civil War criminalizing Stark, but Iron Man as a franchise did nothing but grow during and after Civil War. I think from marvels perspective the damage wasn't very damaging... hence why they given writers never bothered shying away from it. Civil War didn't destory the character... it essentially make him ARGUABLY the most important character in the marvel universe. And hes stayed roughly at that level ever since. Not that I'm giving all or even the lions share of the credit to Civil War... but that was his coming out party and it certainly didn't slow down his meteoric rise in the least.
[B]And honestly I'd argue the same thing is occuring with Black Panther as we speak. He's got a movie down the pike, accompanied by a top selling solo book and a second book just around the corner. For all the alleged damage some might perceive is happening, I honestly think marvel is pretty darn happy with how things are going at least so far. We'll see if that changes or not. But I think the issue is less that there's any measurable damage actually occuring and more that they're simply telling stories some don't happen to like.[/B][/QUOTE]
A movie that will not be showcasing an inept king trying to shut down rape camps and human rights abuses in a nation that he doesn't seem to care about.
[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2221297]You know, I want to find the person who first came up with the idea that all comics need to be "realistic" and punch him or her in the face.
The idea that comics are supposed to hold up a mirror to the real world is fine, but when you apply it to [B]all[/B] comics, you take away the very sense of wonder and hope that made comics popular in the first place.
I'm reminded of a lovely line from a Grant Morrison book, written for the other guys:
"These 'No-Nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Comics are a medium that can explore ideas too crazy (or expensive) to do in almost any other form. So why do so many people want to wallow in the darkness?[/QUOTE]
Obviously ALL comics aren't and shouldn't be realistic... but I do think one element which distinguished marvel from DC back in the day was that it was more grounded and realistic. I think that sort of writing in a lot of cases just struck a cord with a lot of readers.
But ultimately there's no one right way to make a comic book. Some writers tend to be more on the realistic side (which often does equate to darker stories) and some don't. It's a matter of taste really. Coates does seem to veer more on the side of realism... which probably shouldn't surprise too many people.
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2221335]That's what really bugs all of us. Why not take this huge opportunity and do something forward thinking instead of going backwards. Wakanda had a great queen in Shuri so what's all this misogynistic crap? The Doras and MA were badass warriors like the Valkyries of Asgard so what's this crap about women being held back and held down? This book should have been a Sci-Fi journey tackling complex issues as Wakanda advanced itself as a world leader in space exploration and humans role in the cosmic landscape.[/QUOTE]
Meth in Asgard? I think not.
The fact that Coates doesn't see this is sad. People have to understand this is going to be the norm and We will not back down. Enough is enough.
If people want to support that. Cool. But don't think that others will.
[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2221297]You know, I want to find the person who first came up with the idea that all comics need to be "realistic" and punch him or her in the face.
The idea that comics are supposed to hold up a mirror to the real world is fine, but when you apply it to [B]all[/B] comics, you take away the very sense of wonder and hope that made comics popular in the first place.
I'm reminded of a lovely line from a Grant Morrison book, written for the other guys:
"These 'No-Nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Comics are a medium that can explore ideas too crazy (or expensive) to do in almost any other form. So why do so many people want to wallow in the darkness?[/QUOTE]
Exactly. It doesn't make sense no matter the spin or excuses!
[QUOTE=XPac;2220948]I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say Wakanda is the protagonist, but the fact that we're getting a World of Wakanda book out of all of this definately is telling us there's a story to tell here.[/QUOTE]
Sweet. I've been waiting for Marvel to publish an anthology series and I'm definitely interested in reading about different parts of Wakandan society.
I just hope they keep the cover price reasonable...who am I kidding. Legends of Tomorrow is 7.99 for 80 pages. This'll probably be 5.99 for 32.
[QUOTE=XPac;2221358]But ultimately there's no one right way to make a comic book. Some writers tend to be more on the realistic side (which often does equate to darker stories) and some don't. It's a matter of taste really. Coates does seem to veer more on the side of realism... which probably shouldn't surprise too many people.[/QUOTE]
I used the scare quotes on purpose. One of the most realistic comics arcs in my collection is the John Rogers run on [I]Blue Beetle[/I], which starred a young POC who not only had a loving and supportive family, but friends who were not walking cliches. His ethnicity (Hispanic, for the record) was part of his characterization, but he was not a "minority hero".
Until, of course, a new writer came onboard, and decided to do a long arc about illegal immigration. Because that's more "realistic".
For too long, "realism" has been code for the worst parts of human nature. "Realistic" heroes don't just have feet of clay, but entire bodies of clay (with tiny bits of iron here and there). They are either naive, cynical, or outright evil. Idealism, nobility, and altruism never get depicted...
Because those qualities aren't "realistic".
Pardon my French, but f#ck "realism". I want heroes.
[B]I think it's off thinking that people who enjoy the story somehow don't want/can't picture afrofuturistic stories or that they enjoy seeing trafficking and rape camps. If Coates next arc consisted of Wakanda rallying together and dragging earth into a brighter future, I highly doubt the people that like this story would somehow hate that. It's okay to dislike the story, I don't like the premise or how T'Challa and Wakanda Have been depicted, but to think that because you don't like it, means that only you and others who don't are the only ones that care about afrofuturistic stories and others who like e story only care about rape camps and social injustice is downright false [/B]
[QUOTE=taozen;2220913]Coates is not deconstructing T'Challa. He is deconstructing Wakanda. Remember the protagonist so far is not T'Challa. So far it seems as though Wakanda is the protagonist of the series.[/QUOTE]
He's deconstructing Wakanda. He's also character assassinating T'challa in the process as well as reducing him to second fiddle in his own book! The whole Wakanda is the protagonist is pure and utter bs. Why is that ok? This isn't even Wakanda. It's his warp garbage view of Wakanda. Why is that acceptable? Only Black Panther huh? The timing is idiotic beyond reason. Coates doesn't get a pass with me. He never will. The book is titled Black Panther! People want to read about him.
Not that you are saying this. But just saying. In his mind, Wakanda is more interesting. Maybe he should step aside for someone whose is interested in the main character.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2221451][B]I think it's off thinking that people who enjoy the story somehow don't want/can't picture afrofuturistic stories or that they enjoy seeing trafficking and rape camps. If Coates next arc consisted of Wakanda rallying together and dragging earth into a brighter future, I highly doubt the people that like this story would somehow hate that. It's okay to dislike the story, I don't like the premise or how T'Challa and Wakanda Have been depicted, but to think that because you don't like it, means that only you and others who don't are the only ones that care about afrofuturistic stories and others who like e story only care about rape camps and social injustice is downright false [/B][/QUOTE]
If, if, if.....
Yall are my people. I know that there are some that are disappointed in the idea of me or others giving this a chance. With that said as of issue 3 I have been noticing some problems with the pacing. There's something about the writing that is throwing me a bit. At the same time Coates involvement with the mythos is keeping me interested.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2221451][B]I think it's off thinking that people who enjoy the story somehow don't want/can't picture afrofuturistic stories or that they enjoy seeing trafficking and rape camps. If Coates next arc consisted of Wakanda rallying together and dragging earth into a brighter future, I highly doubt the people that like this story would somehow hate that. It's okay to dislike the story, I don't like the premise or how T'Challa and Wakanda Have been depicted, but to think that because you don't like it, means that only you and others who don't are the only ones that care about afrofuturistic stories and others who like e story only care about rape camps and social injustice is downright false [/B][/QUOTE]
Was anyone talking about you?
From what I've seen so far, most posters commenting about what they don't like about Coates take on the BP mythos, have been pretty specific about areas of concern they have.
Most have clearly articulated the fact that they could care less about whether anyone else likes the current state of affairs in the BP book, but for some strange reason, this false narrative about readers not particularly enamoured with what Coates is doing, hating on readers who do, is one that you seem to be focused on pushing.
For the record, I could personally care less about what some like about this run.
I find it misogynistic, derogatory, stereotyypical and frankly insulting to my sensibilities as reader and connisseur of quality fantasy, science-fiction and high adventure.
If I want to bone up on rape, murder and mayhem, all I have to do is watch the daily news.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2221522]I find it misogynistic, dergatory, stereotyypical and frankly insulting to my sensibilities as reader and connisseur of quality fantasy, science-fiction and high adventure.
If I want to bone up on rape, murder and mayhem, all I have to do is watch the daily news.[/QUOTE]
Preach it, Brother Maj.
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2221508]He's deconstructing Wakanda. He's also character assassinating T'challa in the process as well as reducing him to second fiddle in his own book! The whole Wakanda is the protagonist is pure and utter bs. Why is that ok? This isn't even Wakanda. It's his warp garbage view of Wakanda. Why is that acceptable? Only Black Panther huh? The timing is idiotic beyond reason. Coates doesn't get a pass with me. He never will. The book is titled Black Panther! People want to read about him.
Not that you are saying this. But just saying. In his mind, Wakanda is more interesting. Maybe he should step aside for someone whose is interested in the main character.[/QUOTE]
I feel you on this and have noticed this. Maybe(I know youre not in the mood for maybes) that emphasis on Wakanda goes away with World of Wakanda?
[QUOTE=Moose100;2221520]Yall are my people. I know that there are some that are disappointed in the idea of me or others giving this a chance. With that said as of issue 3 I have been noticing some problems with the pacing. There's something about the writing that is throwing me a bit. At the same time Coates involvement with the mythos is keeping me interested.[/QUOTE]
I have Zero issues with you giving this a chance. You are not coming on here telling people that their view is wrong either.
Respect.
[QUOTE=Moose100;2221531]I feel you on this and have noticed this. Maybe(I know youre not in the mood for maybes) that emphasis on Wakanda goes away with World of Wakanda?[/QUOTE]
Coates sounds like Maberry on steroids. Lmao. So yeah, not feeling his words. I need to see action. My trust is at zero with his writing of Panther. I'm side eying his non faction stuff too now. Lmao
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2221508]He's deconstructing Wakanda. He's also character assassinating T'challa in the process as well as reducing him to second fiddle in his own book! The whole Wakanda is the protagonist is pure and utter bs. Why is that ok? This isn't even Wakanda. It's his warp garbage view of Wakanda. Why is that acceptable? Only Black Panther huh? The timing is idiotic beyond reason. Coates doesn't get a pass with me. He never will. The book is titled Black Panther! People want to read about him.
Not that you are saying this. But just saying. In his mind, Wakanda is more interesting. Maybe he should step aside for someone whose is interested in the main character.[/QUOTE]
In fact, to be quite honest, Coates doesn't appear to be interested in writing a Wakanda that actually is the most technological nation in the ANAD MU.
The Wakanda that sent an invading skrull army decimated in [B]See Wakanda And Die[/B], stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Shuri against both Morlun (Hudlin) or Thono's initial invading force (Hickman) doesn't tickle Coates fancy in the slightest.
This writer is hellbent on writing about a Wakanda that's been debased under his pen to such a degree that one prays it gets written out of existence.
But hey, who am I kidding?
While virtually all of the positives that were introduced into the BP mythos by other writers, have been rolled back to point ZERO, you can rest assured that Coates stuff will be left in place untouched.
[IMG]http://i64.tinypic.com/ngx1dk.jpg[/IMG]
Meanwhile in other news, Doom is looking hella dapper over in Invincible Iron Man.
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/294gf95.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2220324]Fair post. I personally don't agree with Coates' initial stance on the Doras but your post helped me understand further why he would see it that way and perhaps why he recommended Roxanne Gay to write the first arc of BP:WOW, which will focus on the Doras, Aneka and Ayo specifically.
The point about Nakia is an interesting one. The Doras were supposed to be wives-in-training for T'Challa among other things, yet in the end T'Challa not only doesn't choose any of them, but instead opts for a foreigner on two occasions. Nakia's reaction to it may have been extreme but when looking at it a certain way it has merit.
Def agree with feminism concerning Shuri's portrayal. Though she may feel some kinship to the Doras (referring to them as sisters, for example), I honestly never got a feminist vibe from her as a character. If anything, a lot of her actions and her overall demeanor leaned more towards that of the Panthers of old. She brought back the Hatute Zeraze to Wakanda, for example.
Though I'm curious on how Roxanne Gay is gonna tackle the first arc featuring the Doras, I do hope it doesn't come too hard at T'Challa, especially being that, imho, his overall treatment of the Doras was positive and respectful.[/QUOTE]
Sorry you had to post twice to me (over on Hudlin board) but glad you did...answered this response in more detail over there but again, glad youre seeing it from another perspective.
[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2221529]Preach it, Brother Maj.[/QUOTE]
It's really depressing.
But what's a Preacher to do? LOL!
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2221587]Coates sounds like Maberry on steroids. Lmao. So yeah, not feeling his words. I need to see action. My trust is at zero with his writing of Panther. I'm side eying his non faction stuff too now. Lmao[/QUOTE]
Maberry come back.
All is forgiven.