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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2268049][B] Except in the Ironman annual when T'Challa beats Kilmonger[/quote]
And... I don't like that idea ;)
[quote]Hell even Priest's take had T'Challa essentially winning. But distractions cause the loss.[/quote]
See, I don't think we saw that at all the same. It was what, day three or four of fighting? There was no indication T'Challa would win, just that he wouldn't lose. I agree that Killmonger wouldn't have won either, but I don't see why T'Challa has to inherently be a better fighter.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2268116]I really like the unstable molecule analogy you drew.
Just imagine Firemen outfitted with protective suits made out of Unstable Molecules.[/QUOTE]
If they are going to continue the debate about Wakanda and cancer, then the door is open and everyone is a target.
Tony stark is a billionaire. He could give every single person living in the MU US a million dollars and end poverty. Where is the outrage? Just because he didn't say it doesn't mean it can't be done.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2268112]In the comics he's a Cap villain. In the movies I think given he murdered T'Challa's dad, I think there's better motivation to switch him over.[/QUOTE]
This is why I want to see a moment where T'Challa and Steve team-up to take down Zemo in a future movie.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2268136]If they are going to continue the debate about Wakanda and cancer, then the door is open and everyone is a target.
Tony stark is a billionaire. He could give every single person living in the MU US a million dollars and end poverty. Where is the outrage? Just because he didn't say it doesn't mean it can't be done.[/QUOTE]
And yet, some cats stay hooked on fictional cancer cures. LOL!
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2268133]And... I don't like that idea ;)
See, I don't think we saw that at all the same. It was what, day three or four of fighting? There was no indication T'Challa would win, just that he wouldn't lose. I agree that Killmonger wouldn't have won either, but I don't see why T'Challa has to inherently be a better fighter.[/QUOTE]
The Killmonger from the Iron Man annual was essentially a zombie animated by Mandarins rings. Given Priest and Hudlin still hyped Killmonger as undefeated I'm guessing marvel doesn't count that.
But I think that also points to the value marvel has in him being undegeated. The fact that they're not counting it due to a technicality shows they like that aspect of him.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2268136]If they are going to continue the debate about Wakanda and cancer, then the door is open and everyone is a target.
Tony stark is a billionaire. He could give every single person living in the MU US a million dollars and end poverty. Where is the outrage? Just because he didn't say it doesn't mean it can't be done.[/QUOTE]
There's no outrage because no Iron Man author ever decided to shoe him on panel doing or not doing what tou're discussing. You make the issue fair game by addressing it in the book.
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FWIW, I was shocked that McGregor killed him off originally. Given that he died the same way T'Challa "died," it seemed ripe to leave it mysterious, but the story confirmed his body was found. I suppose there wasn't any other way for it to be "over," which is why he did it, but it seemed a waste. I'm glad he came back (although I get the impression he's currently dead).
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[QUOTE=Frontier;2268144]This is why I want to see a moment where T'Challa and Steve team-up to take down Zemo in a future movie.[/QUOTE]
Steve is hanging out in Wakanda last we saw him, so it's a possibility.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2268156]There's no outrage because no Iron Man author ever decided to shoe him on panel doing or not doing what tou're discussing. You make the issue fair game by addressing it in the book.[/QUOTE]
See below.
[QUOTE]If they are going to continue the debate about Wakanda and cancer, then the door is open and everyone is a target.
Tony stark is a billionaire. He could give every single person living in the MU US a million dollars and end poverty. Where is the outrage? Just because he didn't say it doesn't mean it can't be done.
[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2268157]FWIW, I was shocked that McGregor killed him off originally. Given that he died the same way T'Challa "died," it seemed ripe to leave it mysterious, but the story confirmed his body was found. I suppose there wasn't any other way for it to be "over," which is why he did it, but it seemed a waste. I'm glad he came back (although I get the impression he's currently dead).[/QUOTE]
It is interesting 2 different authors killed him before T'Challa could neat him. I guess marvel REALLY likes keeping that streak alive.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2268146]And yet, some cats stay hooked on fictional cancer cures. LOL![/QUOTE]
And on cue, there is the rebuttal post which is why I phrased my post that way. The door has been kicked open and all are fair game. No cherry-picking.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2268162]See below.[/QUOTE]
You can target him if you want. I'm just saying don't expect mass,outrage over something that's not addressed in the books. Again, Hudlin made the issue fair game by putting it in print.
It's a,dangerous idea to have heroes deal with real life orovlems,because thise,are things marvel don't want solved. More times than not a writer is better off not going there. But if they do they need to know what thet're doing to avoid what we're talking about now.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2268156]There's no outrage because no Iron Man author ever decided to shoe him on panel doing or not doing what tou're discussing. You make the issue fair game by addressing it in the book.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=XPac;2268179]You can target him if you want. I'm just saying don't expect mass,outrage over something that's not addressed in the books. Again, Hudlin made the issue fair game by putting it in print.
It's a,dangerous idea to have heroes deal with real life orovlems,because thise,are things marvel don't want solved. More times than not a writer is better off not going there. But if they do they need to know what thet're doing to avoid what we're talking about now.[/QUOTE]
In Hickman's seminal FF run, Reed Richards and the Council of Reeds stated that there goals where to solve everything. That is on panel. And they solved many things. So where was the cure for cancer, aids, Alzheimers, diabetes etc? If in fact their goal is to solve everything then surely these must be on the list. Oh, right, they didn't specifically mention then by name so those things must not have been on the list.
Okay hunger! Hunger is a major issue affecting the world. Did they solve the hunger issues on Earth? I don't recall that. But if they are solving everything, wouldn't hunger be on the list of everything? But since they didn't mention it specifically, we'll give them a pass. Let's see, what else could they solve...global warming! Okay now we have something that would benefit all life on Earth, solvingthe problem of global warming! We can all get behind that. Uh, oh! I jus peeked at their list andI didn't see it on there.
So what the frak did they solve? I know, they solved the problem of the missing sock that somehow never made it out of the dryer.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2268044]Wut
We musta watched different movies[/QUOTE]
Captain America beat Tony, Black Widow came to his side at the last moment. No one on his team was seriously hurt or killed. He saved Bucky finally and they are friends again. He befriended T'Challa.
He fought for his convictions. Held stone and one.
If there was a winner during Civil War it was Cap. Who also formed the Secret Avengers at the end
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2268199]In Hickman's seminal FF run, Reed Richards and the Council of Reeds stated that there goals where to solve everything. That is on panel. And they solved many things. So where was the cure for cancer, aids, Alzheimers, diabetes etc? If in fact their goal is to solve everything then surely these must be on the list. Oh, right, they didn't specifically mention then by name so those things must not have been on the list.
Okay hunger! Hunger is a major issue affecting the world. Did they solve the hunger issues on Earth? I don't recall that. But if they are solving everything, wouldn't hunger be on the list of everything? But since they didn't mention it specifically, we'll give them a pass. Let's see, what else could they solve...global warming! Okay now we have something that would benefit all life on Earth, solvingthe problem of global warming! We can all get behind that. Uh, oh! I jus peeked at their list andI didn't see it on there.
So what the frak did they solve? I know, they solved the problem of the missing sock that somehow never made it out of the dryer.[/QUOTE]
They solved things which marvel didn't mind them solving.The key point being marvel still wants real world problems in the MU ... even the ones heroes probably can really solve.
So when a writer decides that a hero is going to solve a real world problem, they will either fail or decide to withhold the solution. And unless a writer REALLY knows what they're doing they will leave their characters wife's wide for criticism with the later.
But it's doubly worse when you pick something like cancer. Something that directly or indirectly effects practically everyone on the planet. That potentially makes it all the more personal.
Again, had he just made it say the common cold it might have just flown below the radar. Instead we got the end result that frankly anyone should gave seen coming a mile away.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2268221]They solved things which marvel didn't mind them solving.The key point being marvel still wants real world problems in the MU ... even the ones heroes probably can really solve.
So when a writer decides that a hero is going to solve a real world problem, they will either fail or decide to withhold the solution. And unless a writer REALLY knows what they're doing they will leave their characters wife's wide for criticism with the later.
But it's doubly worse when you pick something like cancer. Something that directly or indirectly effects practically everyone on the planet. That potentially makes it all the more personal.
Again, had he just made it say the common cold it might have just flown below the radar. Instead we got the end result that frankly anyone should gave seen coming a mile away.[/QUOTE]
So basically you're giving Hickman a pass for something you're criticizing Hudlin about.
When you say you're going to solve everything then that includes disease, famine, poverty, etc. If people are going to call T'Challa and Wakanda a dick for withholding a cure for cancer, then Reed Richards is an idiot for not solving any of the problems on his own Earth.
But no one batted an eyelash about this whatsoever. There were images of the Council of Reeds ending hunger and curing diseases on various planets but Reed didn't even consider trying to help his own Earth? They could have done far more on Earth than curing cancer.
This is more about semantics than anything else. Some people don't like what Hudlin did and that's fair for them not to like it. But to give another writer a pass for the same thing stinks like pig -isht. Or methane if you prefer.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2268049][B]I would actually prefer it if on panel kilmonger said "in a straight uninterrupted fight, T'Challa would likely best me.. but his distractions become my advantage."[/B][/QUOTE]
And then you'd have certain fans railing: [I]"That's B.S.! T'Challa would never allow himself to be distracted in a fight with Killmonger! He's always 2 steps ahead of his enemies! Contingency plans! Plans upon plans! Whomever wrote this crap obviously hates Black Panther and wants to see him NERFED!"[/I]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2268049][B]I would actually prefer it if on panel kilmonger said "[U]in a straight uninterrupted fight, T'Challa would likely best me[/U].. but his distractions become my advantage."[/B][/QUOTE]
Even if it were true, why would Killmonger admit that? He has as big of an ego as T'Challa does, if not bigger.
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[QUOTE=iblogalot;2268269]And then you'd have certain fans railing: [I]"That's B.S.! T'Challa would never allow himself to be distracted in a fight with Killmonger! He's always 2 steps ahead of his enemies! Contingency plans! Plans upon plans! Whomever wrote this crap obviously hates Black Panther and wants to see him NERFED!"[/I][/QUOTE]
[B]I would say what we have seen on panel there is always some sort of distraction that comes up. So for kilmonger to say that he isn't 100% certain he would win in a long drawn out fight isn't bad, and there are usually things that interferes with the fight.
What I wouldn't mind seeing though would be a story of kilmonger and T'Challa getting captured or something (say by skrulls) and taken to their planet and they have to try and get back to earth. Giving them time to Kinda chat with each other and have some interesting dialogue between the two [/B]
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2268319]Even if it were true, why would Killmonger admit that? He has as big of an ego as T'Challa does, if not bigger.[/QUOTE]
[B]Have them get captured taken to a skrull planet and as they are talking he admits to it to T'Challa, just in the context of the situation they are in. And it's not like having disclosed that information makes it likely that we would see T'Challa beat kilmonger anytime soon on panel [/B]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2268245]So basically you're giving Hickman a pass for something you're criticizing Hudlin about.
When you say you're going to solve everything then that includes disease, famine, poverty, etc. If people are going to call T'Challa and Wakanda a dick for withholding a cure for cancer, then Reed Richards is an idiot for not solving any of the problems on his own Earth.
But no one batted an eyelash about this whatsoever. There were images of the Council of Reeds ending hunger and curing diseases on various planets but Reed didn't even consider trying to help his own Earth? They could have done far more on Earth than curing cancer.
This is more about semantics than anything else. Some people don't like what Hudlin did and that's fair for them not to like it. But to give another writer a pass for the same thing stinks like pig -isht. Or methane if you prefer.[/QUOTE]
I'm not giving Hickman a pass because he doesn't need one. It's a non-issue because of the way he handled it.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2268348][B]Have them get captured taken to a skrull planet and as they are talking he admits to it to T'Challa, just in the context of the situation they are in. [U]And it's not like having disclosed that information makes it likely that we would see T'Challa beat kilmonger anytime soon on panel [/U][/B][/QUOTE]
True, but, imho, I don't think it's in character for Killmonger to admit (or even acknowledge) that the distractions are a main reason, if not the reason, why he has beaten T'Challa. The man has too big of an ego to say such a thing, especially to T'Challa of all people, imho.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2268364]True, but, imho, I don't think it's in character for Killmonger to admit (or even acknowledge) that the distractions are a main reason, if not the reason, why he has beaten T'Challa. The man has too big of an ego to say such a thing, especially to T'Challa of all people, imho.[/QUOTE]
Really I'm not sure anyone would go out of their way to say that to a person you usually beat.
Unlike some villains, Killmonger actually has reason to be confident. He backs it it up most of the time.
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I am not making an argument here, or maybe I am. I am also not an expert on Sherlock Holmes. I might just be adding fuel to the debate. But did Holmes ever best Moriarty? I could Google it, but......
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2268364]True, but, imho, I don't think it's in character for Killmonger to admit (or even acknowledge) that the distractions are a main reason, if not the reason, why he has beaten T'Challa. The man has too big of an ego to say such a thing, especially to T'Challa of all people, imho.[/QUOTE]
[B]Why not have a heart to heart in a manner of speaking, for all his ego in one case he admits to his most hated enemy he thinks is a better fighter if it came down to a straight no interruptions fight. Use that opportunity in this situation for T'Challa to talk about how they are similar in their fates and what happened to their fathers. T'Challa expresses that he acknowledges Kilmongers strength and he could of turned out like he Did Given their similar situations. They agree though in their current situation that they will show the skrulls why they made a mistake in messing with the greatest warrior's Wakanda has to offer and have them kick some Ass and try and get back to earth [/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2268492][B]Why not have a heart to heart in a manner of speaking, for all his ego in one case he admits to his most hated enemy he thinks is a better fighter if it came down to a straight no interruptions fight. Use that opportunity in this situation for T'Challa to talk about how they are similar in their fates and what happened to their fathers. T'Challa expresses that he acknowledges Kilmongers strength and he could of turned out like he Did Given their similar situations. They agree though in their current situation that they will show the skrulls why they made a mistake in messing with the greatest warrior's Wakanda has to offer and have them kick some Ass and try and get back to earth [/B][/QUOTE]
Eh... I think Killmonger has proven he's at least T'Challa equal. More than anything that's how I think they would view each other in this situation. Either can beat the other.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2268162]See below.[/QUOTE]
...
[QUOTE]
318.9 million (according to 2014 census)
318.9 million people x 1 million dollars = 318,900,000,000,000 dollars. [/QUOTE]
Marvell, I think you're overestimating how rich Tony actually is.
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;2268479]I am not making an argument here, or maybe I am. I am also not an expert on Sherlock Holmes. I might just be adding fuel to the debate. But did Holmes ever best Moriarty? I could Google it, but......[/QUOTE]
Although the suggestion was that he was behind a lot of previous plots Moriarty is not really an arch-nemesis he was employed as a way of ratcheting up the stakes in the lead up to Holmes (and Moriarty) dying. He didn't return like Holmes.
Like many minor characters in Holmes stories he has been expanded considerably in subsequent works by other writers.
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Holmes actually beat Moriarty in his original appearance in The Final Problem. That being said, he made a huge impact because both of them went off a cliff together and died (and the description of the character was pretty compelling). Due to fans wanting him back, it was later retconned so Holmes survived but they still emphasized that Moriarty died.
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[QUOTE=Jabare;2268212]Captain America beat Tony, Black Widow came to his side at the last moment. No one on his team was seriously hurt or killed. He saved Bucky finally and they are friends again. He befriended T'Challa.
He fought for his convictions. Held stone and one.
If there was a winner during Civil War it was Cap. Who also formed the Secret Avengers at the end[/QUOTE]
Cap and Bucky beat Tony
Black Widow had to go into hiding
Bucky lost his arm. Who knows what psychological damage Wanda has now. Hawkeye likely can't go back to his family. Ditto for Scott. Sharon is on the run.
Everyone that lifted a finger to help Cap got F'd in the end. But yay! they can form an underground super hero group....?
He saved Bucky... they are friends again... and he had to put the dude back on ice in some random African country.
Iron Man at least has his best friend with him...
Ain't nobody win except Zemo and even he didn't get to off himself like he wanted
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[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;2268722]...
Marvell, I think you're overestimating how rich Tony actually is.[/QUOTE]
Biggest "real world" dick head thing Tony's done is created an Extremis app that can do all the cool shit it did and then put it behidn a paywall lol.
Of course the was Superior Dickhead Iron Man but still.
I've stated i don't like the "cure cancer" line and it doesn't make Wakanda tribal leaders seem like dicks (which probably fits honestly, they do seem like asshats half the time). But.. .ti si one of those things you read, go, "eh really dude?" and them move on.
not something you bring up every 12 months to criticize. Ain't all that deep. It was obviously a throwaway quote meant to show Wakanda's technological superiority along with their spiritual superiority over the west.
Anyone that actively criticizes that line over and over and over again and at the same time ignores all the other shit superheroes can fix is a hypocrite IMO.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2268855]Holmes actually beat Moriarty in his original appearance in The Final Problem. That being said, he made a huge impact because both of them went off a cliff together and died (and the description of the character was pretty compelling). Due to fans wanting him back, it was later retconned so Holmes survived but they still emphasized that Moriarty died.[/QUOTE]
So the RDJ Holme's movie ending was from the book?
Oh snaps lol
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[QUOTE=iblogalot;2268269]And then you'd have certain fans railing: [I]"That's B.S.! T'Challa would never allow himself to be distracted in a fight with Killmonger! He's always 2 steps ahead of his enemies! Contingency plans! Plans upon plans! Whomever wrote this crap obviously hates Black Panther and wants to see him NERFED!"[/I][/QUOTE]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/hBt0Euk.jpg[/img]
I mean, really dude?
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Re: Killmonger...
Other than the Panther Rage, their fights have been extremely even.
Priest fight had it so T'challa was noticeably barely winning the fight, judging by the fact Killmonger was the one asking for breaks and T'challa was screaming at him to yield before Ross was Ross.
The Hudlin fight was a dead heat as well.
The way I see it, if both are 100%, T'challa eeks out a hard fought victory.
If one of them slips, gets distracted, is previously fatigued, slightly injured, in any sort of way their dead.
Which I think is the mark of a good rivalry. Especially considering Killmonger can't stay dead lol.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2268927]It was obviously a throwaway quote meant to show Wakanda's technological superiority along with their spiritual superiority over the west. Anyone that actively criticizes that line over and over and over again and at the same time ignores all the other shit superheroes can fix is a hypocrite IMO.[/QUOTE]
I do feel there's an element of racism to it (nobody ever treats Mr. Fantastic, Iron Man or Ant-Man as malicious), but at the same time there is that element of realism to cancer that makes it something lasting. Trying to explain making food giant-size, free energy or protective suits for firefighters are all well and good, but your average comic book reader/professional outrage specialist is gonna have a hard time impressing that into someone else.
"We could feed the world!"
"... We already can, we just choose not to."
"We could provide free electricity!"
"Well, if we focused on renewables..."
"Firefighters need our protection!"
"So why focus on protective suits rather than minimize fire breaks? And if we're going to do that, renovating and upgrading electrical wiring-"
"THE BLACK MAN CAN CURE CANCER AND WONT LET US HAVE IT."
"... My family member/friend died from cancer."
"AND THE BLACK MAN WONT LET US HELP CANCER PEOPLE."
It's really far more of a black-white issue than free food, protective garments, etc... Curing cancer doesn't upend the Marvel U like hoverboards and space travel being common, just like it doesn't upend modern life for most people.
Eh. Hudlin dun goofed in a way he probably couldn't have foreseen. Just wish people would file it under superdickery and call it a day.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2268961]Re: Killmonger...
Other than the Panther Rage, their fights have been extremely even.
Priest fight had it so T'challa was noticeably barely winning the fight, judging by the fact Killmonger was the one asking for breaks and T'challa was screaming at him to yield before Ross was Ross.
The Hudlin fight was a dead heat as well.
The way I see it, if both are 100%, T'challa eeks out a hard fought victory.
If one of them slips, gets distracted, is previously fatigued, slightly injured, in any sort of way their dead.
Which I think is the mark of a good rivalry. Especially considering Killmonger can't stay dead lol.[/QUOTE]
Yeah if you're fighting for hours you're dead even. That is a ridiculously long time to fight. Any difference is negligible.
It's still a little surprising though that 2 different writers,killed Killmonger before having T'Challa flat out beat him. I guess marvel really wants the steak to continue.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2268940][img]http://i.imgur.com/hBt0Euk.jpg[/img]
I mean, really dude?[/QUOTE]
That was a pretty silly way to end the fight. Or maybe I just don't like Ross.
Also, looks like Killmonger was beat, dead to rights. And T'Challa was trying not to have to kill him to end it.
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[QUOTE=Rumble;2268988]That was a pretty silly way to end the fight. Or maybe I just don't like Ross.
Also, looks like Killmonger was beat, dead to rights. And T'Challa was trying not to have to kill him to end it.[/QUOTE]
You can win a fight without killing your opponent. We see that in boxing and MMA all the time. Just knock them out like Killmonger did to him. If T'Challa theoretically was able to he should have rather than asking him to yield. It's a fight, not a debate.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2269007][B]You can win a fight without killing your opponent.[/B] We see that in boxing and MMA all the time. Just knock them out like Killmonger did to him. If T'Challa theoretically was able to he should have rather than asking him to yield. It's a fight, not a debate.[/QUOTE]
Great insight ;)
or he could just choke him out like he may have been attempting, before the silly ending. Eitherway Killmonger seemed on the verge of defeat and admitting that he'd rather wake up unconscious (or not at all) than admit that was his ass
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[QUOTE=XPac;2269007]You can win a fight without killing your opponent. We see that in boxing and MMA all the time. Just knock them out like Killmonger did to him. If T'Challa theoretically was able to he should have rather than asking him to yield. It's a fight, not a debate.[/QUOTE]
That isn't how it works...
[img]http://i.imgur.com/EHwZ8TJ.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/c20r63e.jpg[/img]
You hold (take a break), yield, or die.