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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3806701][COLOR="#000080"]People have a problem with the Dora concept under Priest even though it was all ceremonial and neither T'Challa nor any other Black Panther ever slept with one.
But treehouse rape camps and getting advice from brutal dictators is the acceptable norm to some. Some even try to justify their existence.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Worth mentioning that, in character, a few people had a problem with Dora under Priest. That's why only two were serving at any given time. Turning them into an army was a mistake, IMO.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3806825]Worth mentioning that, in character, a few people had a problem with Dora under Priest. That's why only two were serving at any given time. Turning them into an army was a mistake, IMO.[/QUOTE]
I could buy more than 2... I per village or whatever. But yeah, a giant army of them was a little weird to me.
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My thoughts on the Dora
[QUOTE]Well, age 16 or 11. Same difference, right?
*cough*
[url]http://www.cracked.com/article_24776...n-america.html[/url]
Honestly, I think the problem isn't that the Dora are 'brides', it's that they're brides and there's a damn army of them.
People keep referencing Priest's run, yet forget that there were only were two Dora serving at one time. Okoye, Nakia/Malice and then Queeny.
They were brides in training, a concession to conservative members of his government, and they represented the honor of their respective tribes. The story made it clear that this was a tradition T'Challa revived (meaning Wakanda had long since left it behind) and that it wasn't something he intended to abuse.
From a story perspective, it worked because internal logic demanded T'Challa have body guards (as a head of state does), but an army of them would be impossible to write.
It worked from a story perspective because it allowed the Dora greater characterization. Okoye, the good daughter, Queen is Queen, and delusional Malice. They were not red shirts, they were characters.
Since the Dora was expanded, I don't think we've seen the original Dora since (until recently). Making them an army robs them of characterization and ability, as red shirt armies exist only to get beat.
And honestly, I don't think the Brides in Training/Representative of Tribal honor should be dropped. Honor is a big thing to countless cultures the world over, Africa included, for better or worse (say, honor killings). Not every aspect of Wakandian culture need be perfect.
Hell, Priest developed Wakanda more in one series than any writer has developed Atlantis, simply by introducing basic cultural tension.
What needs to be dropped is making them a damn army. It's hard to say that it's an old cultural practice when there are a million of them. It's hard to believe that T'Challa cares about them personally, when a new one is introduced every ten minutes.
Priest introduced them as scalpels. Precise and careful examinations of Wakanda cultural practices. With a limit to the number of characters, he could carefully examine the implications.
Later writers made them chainsaws, a poor decision that splattered over every character, and nothing is heard but noise.[/QUOTE]
Add to the above, T'Challa looks more bad as by only needing two bodyguards who execute his will, not a damn army
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3806701][COLOR="#000080"]People have a problem with the Dora concept under Priest even though it was all ceremonial and neither T'Challa nor any other Black Panther ever slept with one.
But treehouse rape camps and getting advice from brutal dictators is the acceptable norm to some. Some even try to justify their existence.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[B]The worst part of the whole thing is Coates first said in Interviews before the series that he couldn't see anybody not taking advantage of that situation, ignoring the nobility of Tchalla and the spiritual advancement of Wakanda.
But the whole dictator thing was literally there to throw shade. Even casuals went WTF when Tchalla was surprised that known dictators gave bad advice then talked about it to enemies of Wakanda, and the reason he met with them was just"to see what they would say" I mean... Dafuq? Tchalla ain't that stupid. And then when he reveals stane to the world, its ignored and Changa criticizes him in a later issue...
But all of this is okay and compelling story telling... [/B]
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3806836]My thoughts on the Dora
Add to the above, T'Challa looks more bad as by only needing two bodyguards who execute his will, not a damn army[/QUOTE]
I wonder if the idea that the system was recently revived has been rectoned, because having an army of them with various ages would imply that this system has been going on for quite some time. Not that it's IMPOSSIBLE that they very quickly assembled an army of them... but it feels sort of out of nowhere.
In any event, in the least under current writers they are no longer nameless faceless robots. They're characters now with actual names, who act as more than red shirts.
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Where is this idea that they are an army coming from? Most I've seen on a page is 21. Which is an acceptable amount of each village had one representative.
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[QUOTE=Cville;3806854]Where is this idea that they are an army coming from? Most I've seen on a page is 21. Which is an acceptable amount of each village had one representative.[/QUOTE]
I think the problem is that with anything more than say half a dozen or so, it breaks the conversation of ninjistus rule of fiction. One Dora, like one ninja, might be a deadly threat because that one ninja is an actual character. But a couple dozen ninjas, like a couple dozen Doras, they become nameless faceless canon fodder rather than actual characters.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3806870]I think the problem is that with anything more than say half a dozen or so, it breaks the conversation of ninjistus rule of fiction. One Dora, like one ninja, might be a deadly threat because that one ninja is an actual character. But a couple dozen ninjas, like a couple dozen Doras, they become nameless faceless canon fodder rather than actual characters.[/QUOTE]
Why is that a problem? They're supporting characters. Hudlin got through his run with two and I don't even think he gave them names. Lol
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[QUOTE=Cville;3806884]Why is that a problem? They're supporting characters. Hudlin got through his run with two and I don't even think he gave them names. Lol[/QUOTE]
The problem being when they are more than 2, they're no longer supporting characters. They're just red shirts. Not that there's anything wrong with having red shirts... T'Challa needs that too. But there's value in having Doras who are actual characters. Coates sort of split the difference between Priests and Maeberrys models by making some of them actual characters, while still having plenty of red shirts in the background.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3806925]The problem being when they are more than 2, they're no longer supporting characters. They're just red shirts. Not that there's anything wrong with having red shirts... T'Challa needs that too. But there's value in having Doras who are actual characters. Coates sort of split the difference between Priests and Maeberrys models by making some of them actual characters, while still having plenty of red shirts in the background.[/QUOTE]
So Danai Gurira was less impactful because there was more than her and one other?
To add to the fact that a nameless red shirt Dora got her throat cut and the audience still gasped.
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[QUOTE=Cville;3806943]So Danai Gurira was less impactful because there was more than her and one other?
To add to the fact that a nameless red shirt Dora got her throat cut and the audience still gasped.[/QUOTE]
And the reason you kill off a nameless red Shirt Dora is because Okoye has actual value and shouldn't be killed off. Killng off Okoye is a whole other level of messed up. Again, that's why you want at least SOME of them being real characters.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3806958]And the reason you kill off a nameless red Shirt Dora is because Okoye has actual value and shouldn't be killed off. Killng off Okoye is a whole other level of messed up. Again, that's why you want at least SOME of them being real characters.[/QUOTE]
So then it doesn't really matter how many there are as long as SOME get development? Then what is the problem with there being more than two?
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[QUOTE=Cville;3806961]So then it doesn't really matter how many there are as long as SOME get development? Then what is the problem with there being more than two?[/QUOTE]
That's what I'm saying … Coates sort of bridged Priests and Hickmans models by giving us some that were real characters. But making some of them actual characters again, it fixed the problem.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3806965]That's what I'm saying … Coates sort of bridged Priests and Hickmans models by giving us some that were real characters. But making some of them actual characters again, it fixed the problem.[/QUOTE]
Was it a problem? I wasn't on forums during the Hudlin to Hickman years. Were people upset that the Dora were not getting character development?
These questions go out to anyone who was posting during that period.
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[QUOTE=Cville;3806985]Was it a problem? I wasn't on forums during the Hudlin to Hickman years. Were people upset that the Dora were not getting character development?
These questions go out to anyone who was posting during that period.[/QUOTE]
Upset is too strong a word... but I do think some didn't necessarily agree with eliminateing Okoye from the story (and a lot of the other Priest supporting cast members).
Expanding this from just Doras, I think one of the problems with the BP mythos is that writers tend not to build off of the world building the previous BP writer left. A lot of very cool supporting characters and villains went into limbo when Priest left the book. Maeberry build an entire supporting cast for Shuri when she became Black Panther... all of which vanished into thin air once Maeberry left. And the Hunt created an entire school of metas for Wakanda... which again, all but vansished.
The bottom line is you want a strong deep supporting cast. Red shirts are fine... but you need real characters you can tell actual stories about.
Hudlin had to go to great lengths to ensure Shuri wasn't going anywhere. It arguably even came at T'CHalla's short term expense... but to his credit me managed to get her to stick.
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I honestly don't recall anyone caring about the Dora much at all in those days. The books were about T'Challa (and later, Shuri), not random supporting cast members.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3807017]Upset is too strong a word... but I do think some didn't necessarily agree with eliminateing Okoye from the story (and a lot of the other Priest supporting cast members).
Expanding this from just Doras, I think one of the problems with the BP mythos is that writers tend not to build off of the world building the previous BP writer left. A lot of very cool supporting characters and villains went into limbo when Priest left the book. Maeberry build an entire supporting cast for Shuri when she became Black Panther... all of which vanished into thin air once Maeberry left. And the Hunt created an entire school of metas for Wakanda... which again, all but vansished.
The bottom line is you want a strong deep supporting cast. Red shirts are fine... but you need real characters you can tell actual stories about.
Hudlin had to go to great lengths to ensure Shuri wasn't going anywhere. It arguably even came at T'CHalla's short term expense... but to his credit me managed to get her to stick.[/QUOTE]
In general, unless it's Superman or Batman, supporting cast members rarely last past a given writer's run. Even A-list characters like Wonder Woman or Captain America tend to get their status quo ignored when it suits a new team.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3806797]Treehouse rape is considered acceptable in the story, because the story clearly conveyed that it was wrong. Hence the rapist getting murdered on panel for their actions. Point being it's okay to show bad stuff happening in fiction, provided the story makes it clear that it's bad stuff that actually needs to be stopped.[/QUOTE]
You forgot the "getting advice from brutal dictators" thing.
Was that "acceptable" too?
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3807030]You forgot the "getting advice from brutal dictators" thing.
Was that "acceptable" too?[/QUOTE]
I gave up waiting for an explanation why slipping into savage anarchy is acceptable in Wakanda, but literally every other culture in Marvel that gets smashed in an Event™ recovers without random warlords carving up the countryside into their own little fiefdoms.
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[QUOTE=Cville;3806985]Was it a problem? I wasn't on forums during the Hudlin to Hickman years. Were people upset that the Dora were not getting character development?
These questions go out to anyone who was posting during that period.[/QUOTE]
Trust me.
No one was upset about anything.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3807035]I gave up waiting for an explanation why slipping into savage anarchy is acceptable in Wakanda, but literally every other culture in Marvel that gets smashed in an Event™ recovers without random warlords carving up the countryside into their own little fiefdoms.[/QUOTE]
Coates seems to think it made sense. (according to some)
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3807035]I gave up waiting for an explanation why slipping into savage anarchy is acceptable in Wakanda, but literally every other culture in Marvel that gets smashed in an Event™ recovers without random warlords carving up the countryside into their own little fiefdoms.[/QUOTE]
It's acceptable for any nation anytime that's the story a writer wants to tell. If a writer feels there's drama to milk, they will milk it. And if they want to just sweep it under the carpet and move on, we'll get that instead. From what I understand Latveria feel into anarchy after Secret Wars too... because it worked with the story Bendis wanted to tell. That's just how it is. It works if that's the direction they want to go. But if it's not, that's fine too because it's comics.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3807027]In general, unless it's Superman or Batman, supporting cast members rarely last past a given writer's run. Even A-list characters like Wonder Woman or Captain America tend to get their status quo ignored when it suits a new team.[/QUOTE]
In Xpac's defense, he was saying about how things should be, not are ;)
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Tell you what... find me ONE SCAN of a canon Marvel culture that had something as bad as those treehouses after an invasion.
Atlantis, Attilan, Genosha, K'un L'un, Latveria, Madripoor... all have been crushed to rubble on more than one occasion, some of them recently even, but somehow none of them had widespread rape.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3807071]In Xpac's defense, he was saying about how things should be, not are ;)[/QUOTE]
"It works if that's the direction they want to go. But if it's not, that's fine too because it's comics." ;)
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3807074]Tell you what... find me ONE SCAN of a canon Marvel culture that had something as bad as those treehouses after an invasion.
Atlantis, Attilan, Genosha, K'un L'un, Latveria, Madripoor... all have been crushed to rubble on more than one occasion, some of them recently even, but somehow none of them had widespread rape.[/QUOTE]
Genosha was worse than that every day of the week. It was an entire society built on enslavement, rather than a small group of criminals taking advantage of a small group of women.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3806836]My thoughts on the Dora
Add to the above, T'Challa looks more bad as by only needing two bodyguards who execute his will, not a damn army[/QUOTE]
[B]Even then. It's clear they aren't hos personal harem. I agree that making them an army turns then into redshirts. However z it also gives back new elite group. Realistically, the Dora order should be 18 total, k e woman from each tribe. With Okoye Being the face of the order. Same with the hatute zeraze. They should be less then 100 and have knee guy or group be the face to give us insight on the group. The movie showcased this very well how there can be more then two Dora's and work[/B]
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3807075]"It works if that's the direction they want to go. But if it's not, that's fine too because it's comics." ;)[/QUOTE]
As far as supporting casts go... if it suits the narrative for the supporting cast not to be used, I think that's fine. I can buy Okoye not showing up in Hells Kitchen during LIss run, because it would make sense for her not to be there.
But Okoye not being in used at all in Hudlins run for example, I find a bit odd. He's using Doras… why not use Okoye? I won't say it's a HUGE deal that most fans will lose sleep over, but I think ignoring supporting cast for the sake of ignoring them can be hurtful to the franchise. I think you ideally want to build up at least a few Aunt May or Lois Lane or Commissioner Gordon level supporting cast members, and that obviously requires them to survive multliple writers runs. Shuri for example made the cut... Hudlin took great lengths to ensure it was almost impossible to ignore SHuri at least in the short term, and he made it work.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3807063]It's acceptable for any nation anytime that's the story a writer wants to tell. If a writer feels there's drama to milk, they will milk it. And if they want to just sweep it under the carpet and move on, we'll get that instead. From what I understand Latveria feel into anarchy after Secret Wars too... because it worked with the story Bendis wanted to tell. That's just how it is. It works if that's the direction they want to go. But if it's not, that's fine too because it's comics.[/QUOTE]
Were there rape camps in Latveria too?
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[QUOTE=XPac;3807082]Genosha was worse than that every day of the week. It was an entire society built on enslavement, rather than a small group of criminals taking advantage of a small group of women.[/QUOTE]
How do you know it was a "small group of women."
As you're so fond of pointing out, there was wholesale chaos and rebellion across the length and breadth of Wakanda fomented by Tetsu, Zenzi, Stanes, The Fenris Twins, Dr Faustus, renegade Dora Milajes and a whole army of Choke Slam Gary's rocking that Boko Haram aesthetic.
Hardly what one would describe as being a "small group of criminals."
Where there any rape camps in Genosha?
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Oakland...
1980's or so...
Prince N'jobo sist in his small apartment bucky naked on the bed waiting for that special happy ending.
N'jobo: "Woman, hurry up in there I'm ready!"
From behind the bathroom door...
Whatsherface: "Just a second I bought some new lingerie I want to show you my nubian prince be patient!"
Just then a flash of light and puffy smoke as a large tall purple people eating looking dude appears.
Thanos: "Are you Prince N'jobo"
N'jobo: "How did you..."
Thanos: "Never mind that... Here!"
Thanos hands Prince N'jobo a kinetic energy absorbing vibranium reinforced condom and using the time stone squeezes the infinity gauntlet and disappears.
Wakanda...
2000's or so...
King T'challa: "Did you take care of that thing for me?"
Thanos: "As per our agreement yes!"
King T'challa: "Good looking out!"
Princess Shuri: "Brother you are such a cheater!"
King T'challa: "Thanos wouldn't it be cool if I was an only child!"
Thanos: "You people are worse than the Skywalkers... I'm out!"
Poof! :cool:
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3807097][B]Even then. It's clear they aren't hos personal harem. I agree that making them an army turns then into redshirts. However z it also gives back new elite group. Realistically, the Dora order should be 18 total, k e woman from each tribe. With Okoye Being the face of the order. Same with the hatute zeraze. They should be less then 100 and have knee guy or group be the face to give us insight on the group. The movie showcased this very well how there can be more then two Dora's and work[/B][/QUOTE]
Brother Ezyo, in truth, 2,4,8 or 100 Dora's there will always be some readers and writers who will deliberately choose to mischaracterize T'Challa's relationship with the Dora Milaje.
The actual on-panel facts don't matter in so far as they don't support the false narrative pushed by some.
Multiple scans of panels can be posted from now till infinity but some will continue to substitute assumptions and unsubstantiated ideas in direct contradiction of what's been published. (Pre-Coates.)
That comes with the territory.
Wholly realised Wakanda Program?
Not logical.
T'challa portrayed as a more than competent protagonist in his own solo book?
Forget that.
Stories that actually build upon what came before in a way that really builds up T'Challa as a character and Wakanda as a concept?
You must be joking.
Rape camps, women trafficking, out of nowhere chaos, corruption and stereotypical Third World violence portrayed as being rampant within a spiritually and technological super nation that never had a history of systematic subjugation of women?
Why the hell not?
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[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;3807208]Oakland...
1980's or so...
Prince N'jobo sist in his small apartment bucky naked on the bed waiting for that special happy ending.
N'jobo: "Woman, hurry up in there I'm ready!"
From behind the bathroom door...
Whatsherface: "Just a second I bought some new lingerie I want to show you my nubian prince be patient!"
Just then a flash of light and puffy smoke as a large tall purple people eating looking dude appears.
Thanos: "Are you Prince N'jobo"
N'jobo: "How did you..."
Thanos: "Never mind that... Here!"
Thanos hands Prince N'jobo a kinetic energy absorbing vibranium reinforced condom and using the time stone squeezes the infinity gauntlet and disappears.
Wakanda...
2000's or so...
King T'challa: "Did you take care of that thing for me?"
Thanos: "As per our agreement yes!"
King T'challa: "Good looking out!"
Princess Shuri: "Brother you are such a cheater!"
King T'challa: "Thanos wouldn't it be cool if I was an only child!"
Thanos: "You people are worse than the Skywalkers... I'm out!"
Poof! :cool:[/QUOTE]
Hilarious :cool:
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[QUOTE=XPac;3807099]As far as supporting casts go... if it suits the narrative for the supporting cast not to be used, I think that's fine. I can buy Okoye not showing up in Hells Kitchen during LIss run, because it would make sense for her not to be there.
But Okoye not being in used at all in Hudlins run for example, I find a bit odd. He's using Doras… why not use Okoye? I won't say it's a HUGE deal that most fans will lose sleep over, but I think ignoring supporting cast for the sake of ignoring them can be hurtful to the franchise. I think you ideally want to build up at least a few Aunt May or Lois Lane or Commissioner Gordon level supporting cast members, and that obviously requires them to survive multliple writers runs. Shuri for example made the cut... Hudlin took great lengths to ensure it was almost impossible to ignore SHuri at least in the short term, and he made it work.[/QUOTE]
[B] Ramonda, W'kabi, Zuri, Shuri. It's not as though all of Tchallas supporting cast just poof and never shown up again[/B]
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3807219]Brother Ezyo, in truth, 2,4,8 or 100 Dora's there will always be some readers and writers who will deliberately choose to mischaracterize T'Challa's relationship with the Dora Milaje.
The actual on-panel facts don't matter in so far as they don't support the false narrative pushed by some.
Multiple scans of panels can be posted from now till infinity but some will continue to substitute assumptions and unsubstantiated ideas in direct contradiction of what's been published. (Pre-Coates.)
That comes with the territory.
Wholly realised Wakanda Program?
Not logical.
T'challa portrayed as a more than competent protagonist in his own solo book?
Forget that.
Stories that actually build upon what came before in a way that really builds up T'Challa as a character and Wakanda as a concept?
You must be joking.
Rape camps, women trafficking, out of nowhere chaos, corruption and stereotypical Third World violence portrayed as being rampant within a spiritually and technological super nation that never had a history of systematic subjugation of women?
Why the hell not?[/QUOTE]
[B]Yep and it's hailed as compelling story telling and "making Tchalla and Wakanda feel more realistic" which translates into making them feel safer because Priest, Liss, McDuffie,and Hudlin especially made folks feel uncomfortable showing an unapologetic Black Panther and Wakanda.
Nevermind the fact that the story was poorly done and took multiple books to try and make sense of the story that actually ended up contradicting itself and making the first arc even more ridiculous for how it turned out with T'Challa giving the MA everything they wanted while they acted like spoiled children[/B]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3807082]Genosha was worse than that every day of the week. It was an entire society built on enslavement, rather than a small group of criminals taking advantage of a small group of women.[/QUOTE]
That isn't what he asked.
He is asking of an example of a country getting damaged and then turning to **** afterwards.
If it was already ****, like your example of Genosha, then that really isn't the same thing.
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[QUOTE=Yaw;3806767]T;Chala let Kasper get the synthetic .herb concoction made by Killmonger. "let" as in he did try to stop him.[/QUOTE]
Was that supposed to be did or didn't?
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3807641][B] Ramonda, W'kabi, Zuri, Shuri. It's not as though all of Tchallas supporting cast just poof and never shown up again[/B][/QUOTE]
You can cross W'Kabi and Zuri off that list. Which is why I think it was a mistake to kill them off. They were characters established enough in the mythos to stick around at least a little bit from writer to writer... and not every supporting character introduced in a characters mythos can do tiat.
But yeah, Shuri and Ramonda have stuck around. Shuri in particular has grown into a fairly recognizable character. So yeah... Hudlin took out 2 but gave back 1, which I guess is still a net gain since that 1 had a bigger impact on the mythos than any other supporting cast member.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3807699]That isn't what he asked.
He is asking of an example of a country getting damaged and then turning to **** afterwards.
If it was already ****, like your example of Genosha, then that really isn't the same thing.[/QUOTE]
Off the top of my head, Gruenwalds Squadron Supreme earth.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3806797]Treehouse rape is considered acceptable in the story, because the story clearly conveyed that it was wrong. Hence the rapist getting murdered on panel for their actions. Point being it's okay to show bad stuff happening in fiction, provided the story makes it clear that it's bad stuff that actually needs to be stopped.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]And what did T'Challa or any other Black Panther do with the Doras? They have been turned into elite bodyguards, so the wives-in-training aspect has since been long gone.
But that won't stop some people from commenting on it as if something happened.
[/COLOR]