Black Panther Appreciation: Wakanda Forever!

[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2265736]One other thing I have to contend. T'Challa has rarely achieved victory by simply punching someone out. He often strategized with plan upon plan.[/QUOTE]

Fair point, I'll rephrase. I'll say that T'Challa, whether through punches, planning, or both, generally manages to make the main opposition "submit" so to speak, resulting in victory.

Thing is, I don't think the punches or the "plan upon plan" strat (resulting in opposition submitting) will be enough this time. He'll have to come up with some Bast-tier ish to fully make it out of this one, and I'm not sure it'll happen considering the story Coates is writing.

In short, I'm expecting a hell of a pyrric victory. :(

[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265794]Fair point, I'll rephrase. I'll say that T'Challa, whether through punches, planning, or both, generally manages to make the main opposition "submit" so to speak, resulting in victory.

Thing is, I don't think the punches or the "plan upon plan" strat (resulting in opposition submitting) will be enough this time. He'll have to come up with some Bast-tier ish to fully make it out of this one, and I'm not sure it'll happen considering the story Coates is writing.

In short, I'm expecting a hell of a pyrric victory. :([/QUOTE]


I agree. I've said it numerous times but I don't see a clear win for T'Challa coming out of this. It's going to be another he "wins by learning valuable lesson but it sure as hell looks like a loss!"

[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;2264426]I think McGregor said he basically did the map the night before because it got sprung on him. But yeah, that map looks cool. [/QUOTE]

More than that, he pretty much designed his entire comic, the characters, and his version of Wakanda with about a weekend to prepare.

[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2265752][B]Which also makes me wonder this, Ae they liking this version fo t'Challa because we are getting more internal thoughts and seeing a more "Humanized" (Bleh) T'Challa? Not so much that he is getting punked because because they feel he is like a real life human dealing with very realistic issues and that is somehow relating to people?[/B][/QUOTE]

I think so. I can't say for sure, but that's the gist of what I've read. A notable amount of new readers find him relatable. Kinda weird from my perspective, but perhaps a new reader who likes the run can elaborate on that.

[QUOTE][B]Personally i could stand this sotry more if Coates had t'Challa show more focus and determination in his actions, take the Bomber scene, it felt like a priest moment but with more communication, you felt like this was the old T'Challa we recognize a little bit, and Coates needs to capture that essence. T'Challa can struggle while still (on Panel) putting the baddies on the ropes, or showing that he is planning something. I mean lets be real how would anybody NOT see how meeting with dictators could easily bite you in the ass? Knowing full well thats who they are. So unless there is more to it (i seriously hope so) then that was just a poor writing by Coates. That and missing opportunities to have t'challa pull off some cool stuff like capturing zenzi, OR showing he has plans for these deictators and he wanst just blind sided by them[/B][/QUOTE]

That meeting really made me (once again) seriously recalibrate my expectations for this run. The rape camps were unexpected as hell, but they were in the preview of #2, so we saw it coming, somewhat.

The meeting though? Completely blindsided by it. After reading that, its pretty clear: [I]anything[/I] can happen in this run. Anything. All one can do is cross their fingers and hope all ends well this season.

Oh boy Coates Replacing McGregor as the Worst Panther Writer in History. Never thought I say this when Coates was announced.

[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2265789]Right, McGregor did this 40 years ago. Except he didn't give us Third World Wakanda with accompanying rape camps.

I didn't like McGregor's take then and I certainly don't like what Coates is doing now.[/QUOTE]

I'm too tired to even go into how much disdain I have for Coates take on the BP mythos at this point.

Suffice it to say that I'll never drink his Kool Aid.

[QUOTE=JediKage;2265825]Oh boy Coates Replacing McGregor as the Worst Panther Writer in History. Never thought I say this when Coates was announced.[/QUOTE]

I liked McGregor's 1970's Black Panther work especially as all cast members got their time to shine in the sun without T'Challa being relegated to the background.

Also, Don had no problem illustrating a black heterosexual couple in love which is more than be said for Coates and his "heteronormative" rape camp fetish.

[QUOTE=iblogalot;2265729]That’s likely a natural result of gaining experience in writing comic-books, which is not the same as other types of writing. I saw similar improvement with Reggie Hudlin over the course of his run. Right from the start, I thought his first two issues could have been one.
[/QUOTE]

The Coates run reminds me of the Hudlin run in that regard. Rather iffy start in part because they both aren't comic book writers, with some progress as time goes on. Hudlin especially showed progress as time went on and even concluded his run very well, imho.

I'm still following the Coates run at the moment, but for every piece of progress (the T'Challa-Captive convo, for example) he makes it really. realllllly. hard for me to do so. That meeting....why? :(

So far, strictly as a story, its not bad. Some issues are actually pretty good, imho. As a BP story though...*sigh*, its just weird right now. Then again, what a "BP story" is seems to be changing the way this run is going.

[QUOTE]Not only that, McGregor was the one who introduced the character of T’Challa’s stepmother Ramonda, with the story that she had been kidnapped and held imprisoned by a White South African man for over a decade. An idea which is bad enough, but he also later had a panel where Ramonda is remembering how the man repeatedly raped her over the years, and recalled that even though she tried to hold back her feelings [B]sometimes she couldn't help but enjoy it.[/B]

That's right, she [I]liked[/I] by raped by the White South African man (sometimes). Because she was just that horny so at least she was getting some sex.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.thecoli.com/media/dahell-original-gif.1618/full[/IMG]

What in the hell...

Didn't read that story...will def pass on it now. :eek:

[QUOTE]Seriously, I had not read McGregor’s work, as it was before my time. I eventually sought it out after on the recommendation of the Late Dwayne McDuffie (Peace Be Upon Him), who repeatedly talked about how great McGregor’s work was, and it was that which made HIM a fan of Black Panther. Since there were no collections I tracked down McGregor’s entire run and ordered the single issues online. All the Jungle Action books and the Marvel Comics Presents books, and the Panther’s Prey miniseries. And I read it all and was just like, this is terrible. I don’t see the appeal at all. Wakanda seemed much more backward than it had been when introduced by Lee and Kirby and, like I said, T’Challa was constantly getting beaten up within the course of the series. Even the way he wrote Monica Lynne, I didn’t see what T’Challa found so special about her.
[/QUOTE]

I remember Hudlin and McDuffie had a back and forth about it. McDuffie really liked it, Hudlin def didn't.

[QUOTE]I am aware of the speculation that this will be resolved with T’Challa dismantling the monarchy. I would not necessarily be happy with that either. I mean, I guess they could initiate free elections in Wakanda, and then T’Challa gets elected President, so he’s still ruling the nation but now just democratically. But I don’t see that as necessary.[/QUOTE]

I think we'll get a constitutional monarchy: monarchy is still around, T'Challa is still "King," monarchy is still highly influential, but parliament / Wakandan council will be making the final decision, which head of parliament / council wielding a lot more powers now. Something of that sort.

I can see a lot of new readers liking it. I can also see a lot of longtime BP fans realllllly not liking that direction. Unfortunately, I can see Coates going that direction. Then again, he might suprise me again, for better or worse.

[QUOTE=iblogalot;2265729]

Not only that, McGregor was the one who introduced the character of T’Challa’s stepmother Ramonda, with the story that she had been kidnapped and held imprisoned by a White South African man for over a decade. An idea which is bad enough, but he also later had a panel where Ramonda is remembering how the man repeatedly raped her over the years, and recalled that even though she tried to hold back her feelings [B]sometimes she couldn't help but enjoy it.[/B]

That's right, she [I]liked[/I] by raped by the White South African man (sometimes). Because she was just that horny so at least she was getting some sex.
[/QUOTE]

Say what?

What run was this in?

It would presumably have to be in Panther's Prey. I don't think there's enough room in Panther's Quest since her rescue is right at the end. I don't think that's necessarily the correct interpretation of that quote. Rather it's that rape victims do occasionally experience arousal which leads to even greater shame because they end up thinking they somehow wanted it.

[url=https://www.thenation.com/article/how-body-reacts-sexual-assault/]Article from The Nation[/url]

[quote] “Approximately 1 in 20 women who come to the clinic for treatment because of sexual abuse report that they have had an orgasm from previous unsolicited sexual arousal. It is not detailed in the [professional] literature because the victims usually do not want to tell/talk about it because they feel guilty, as people will think that if it happened they must have enjoyed it. The victims often say, ‘My body let me down.’ Some, however, cannot summon the courage to say even that.”[/quote]

we are only 5 issues in let us see where he takes us

[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2265993]It would presumably have to be in Panther's Prey. I don't think there's enough room in Panther's Quest since her rescue is right at the end. I don't think that's necessarily the correct interpretation of that quote. Rather it's that rape victims do occasionally experience arousal which leads to even greater shame because they end up thinking they somehow wanted it.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it was Panther's Prey, and yes that is how it was presented, how she tried to resist but sometimes felt stimulated by his touch anyway. It wasn't a major plot-point or anything, it's just one page where Ramonda was alone and thinking about it. And that's part of what made it so distasteful to me, as there didn't seem to be any reason for us to learn that Ramonda sometimes got aroused by her capture/rapist. It wasn't followed up on in any way, or added anything to the story. So what was the point of even bringing that up? It was just one more thing I disliked about McGregor's overall run(s) on Black Panther. And this was also the miniseries that introduced Crack to Wakanda.

[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2265878]I remember Hudlin and McDuffie had a back and forth about it. McDuffie really liked it, Hudlin def didn't.[/QUOTE]

And it was on Hudlin's recommendation that I finally tracked down and read Jack Kirby's Black Panther. . .and that was just...WEIRD.

[QUOTE=Jabare;2266083]we are only 5 issues in let us see where he takes us[/QUOTE]

He said and I quote. After the end of his 12 issue stint he felt "Sorry, for T'challa."


That was in an interview. The writer....feels bad for what he's doing to the main character at the end of his run arch. We don't need to wait in order to know where this trash is going.

[QUOTE=iblogalot;2266112]Yes, it was Panther's Prey, and yes that is how it was presented, how she tried to resist but sometimes felt stimulated by his touch anyway. It wasn't a major plot-point or anything, it's just one page where Ramonda was alone and thinking about it. And that's part of what made it so distasteful to me, as there didn't seem to be any reason for us to learn that Ramonda sometimes got aroused by her capture/rapist. It wasn't followed up on in any way, or added anything to the story. So what was the point of even bringing that up? It was just one more thing I disliked about McGregor's overall run(s) on Black Panther. And this was also the miniseries that introduced Crack to Wakanda.[/QUOTE]

Any chance you remember which of the issues it was in so I can look it up?

Panther's Prey is far and away my least favorite McGregor story, although for different reasons than you suggest (it felt like it went nowhere on four different fronts and then ended). It tried to do too much and ended up doing nothing at all.

If my introduction to tchalla was under Don's pen, I woulda never read a single other issue with him because his only redeeming quality was getting his ass beat.

[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2265846]I liked McGregor's 1970's Black Panther work especially as all cast members got their time to shine in the sun without T'Challa being relegated to the background.

Also, Don had no problem illustrating a black heterosexual couple in love which is more than be said for Coates and his "heteronormative" rape camp fetish.[/QUOTE]

That is a good point. Especially when you consider that was 1970. 2016 and the haters are getting everything they want. SMFH.

[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2266141]Any chance you remember which of the issues it was in so I can look it up?

Panther's Prey is far and away my least favorite McGregor story, although for different reasons than you suggest (it felt like it went nowhere on four different fronts and then ended). It tried to do too much and ended up doing nothing at all.[/QUOTE]

First issue of Prey. When tchalla is talking to her.

Ill post the scan tomorrow.

I cant decide if the KKK or Prey is my least favorite arc ever. I havent gotten to Quest yet bc im afraid

^ I like Quest a lot, but the format does it no favors (and makes it difficult to collect). I really like how KKK started, but the final conclusion by a different writer was just abysmal. It ruined everything that came before (which isn't something I like to say).

I'd still put Prey over Doomwar, but not much else.

[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2266164]If my introduction to tchalla was under Don's pen, I woulda never read a single other issue with him because his only redeeming quality was getting his ass beat.[/QUOTE]

Not his courage and determination and resolve to do the just thing?

Panther's Rage was my first introduction to a Black Panther solo comic and it led me to continue onward to Priest, Hudlin, etc. But it also gave me a perspective that Priest's version is great, but he isn't the only acceptable version.

Now if Black Panther Vol. 1 by Jack Kirby was my first introduction, I can't say I'd have kept reading.

[QUOTE=Ekie;2266122]He said and I quote. After the end of his 12 issue stint he felt "Sorry, for T'challa."


That was in an interview. The writer....feels bad for what he's doing to the main character at the end of his run arch. We don't need to wait in order to know where this trash is going.[/QUOTE]

Honestly I think Liss had the only BP run in recent history where you probably don't need to feel sorry for the character.

Priests run ended with T'Challa being dethroned with a brain aneurysm. Hudlins run ended with him dethroned and just recovering from a coma at Dooms hands. Maeberrys run ended with him still depowered and dethroned after he destroyed their processed vibranium.

[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2266170]^ I like Quest a lot, but the format does it no favors (and makes it difficult to collect). I really like how KKK started, but the final conclusion by a different writer was just abysmal. It ruined everything that came before (which isn't something I like to say).

I'd still put Prey over Doomwar, but not much else.



Not his courage and determination and resolve to do the just thing?

Panther's Rage was my first introduction to a Black Panther solo comic and it led me to continue onward to Priest, Hudlin, etc. But it also gave me a perspective that Priest's version is great, but he isn't the only acceptable version.

Now if Black Panther Vol. 1 by Jack Kirby was my first introduction, I can't say I'd have kept reading.[/QUOTE]

I think you almost have to accept other versions of Black Panthers besides Priests (even though many find that version the best) because I'm not sure anyone can write Priests version aside from Priest.

[QUOTE=Jabare;2266083]we are only 5 issues in let us see where he takes us[/QUOTE]

5 issues of Coates trash is 5 issues too many.

[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2265786]I was part of that FB debate as well. :cool:

PM me your FB so I can add you. (if you feel comfortable with that of course.)[/QUOTE]

I'll send you mine my brother...

[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2265776][SIZE=3]
I really wish people would stop referring to Hickman's usage of T'Challa in the New Avengers/Secret Wars II books as a distinct BP "run" in of itself.

No one refers to Hickman's writing of Dr Strange, Stephen Rogers, Namor, Beast, Stark or Black Bolt in the aformentione NA/SS as being "runs" for any of those characters.

Jonathan Hickmman has (and hopefully will) never written a Black Panther solo book.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Can't be better said...

[QUOTE=Mecegirl;2264786]It's kinda not that deep. See grown men have acceptable gender specific terms that are less formal. You can call a man dude or guy. For a woman not so much. There is Lady i guess but no one uses dudette and gal anymore without sounding antiquated. So in a lot of cases its not even about trying to reclaim someting, grown women are just using the term girl like some use the term guy.

Now there is a time for everything. When they tried to handwave calling a grown Kara Supergirl in the new sitcom the explanation was dumb as fuck. Very few people use it in that way. The average woman her age wouldn't appreciate it. It's one thing for your friends or even coworkers that you are friendly with to call you girl. It's fine when things are casual. Its another when you are being addressed in a professional capacity.[/QUOTE]

Well, I know women call each other "Girl" all the time..."Girl, let me tell you about bla bla bla...." That I don't see anything wrong with. My main pet peeve is when people use woman and girl interchangeably and refer to every female, no matter her age, as a girl. Men will say they are dating girls, are trying to pick up girls, were talking to a girl (and I think men need to be REALLY careful about that), and I hear a lot of women on television and in everyday life referring to themselves and most women as girls. There was a national fitness chain that had advertisements with the words "Girl Power" but the females shown in those advertisements on the exercise bikes were clearly women. Right now there is an advertisement campaign for a company called Aerie or something where numerous women are shown in their bras, but one of the phrases on all of those Aerie advertisements says something like, "There's no retouching on THIS girl"...and every one of the advertisements says "girl" instead of woman.

I just find it problematic that men and women use "girl" and "woman" as though they mean the same thing, but if a 7-year-old girl started running around calling herself a woman, people would correct her (at least I hope they would).


And about a year ago I ran across this article written by a woman abut the use of girl vs. woman when referring to females over 17 years old: [URL="http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/grown-women-are-not-girls/"]http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/grown-women-are-not-girls/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2266268]5 issues of Coates trash is 5 issues too many.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't even use it for toilet paper.

[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2264660]What is kind of interseting is that the term "boy" is 100% not interchangable with "man" and is generally used to show power over someone.

"The only matter I do not take seriously, boy, is you. Your politics bore me. Your demeanor is that of a pouty child. And apparently, you have alienated my favourite daughter, Gamora. I will honour our agreement, Kree, if you bring me the Orb. But, return to me again empty handed ... and I will bathe the starways in your blood."[/QUOTE]

One day at a previous job (late last year) a female co-worker called me a boy. She thought she was being cute, but I set her straight immediately. I'm 20 years older than her, so I let her know I'm not a boy, I'm a man. Her reasoning was that she thinks of all men as boys or however she put it.

[QUOTE=Ekie;2266122]He said and I quote. After the end of his 12 issue stint he felt "Sorry, for T'challa."


That was in an interview. The writer....feels bad for what he's doing to the main character at the end of his run arch. We don't need to wait in order to know where this trash is going.[/QUOTE]

[B]Did he actually say that? I tried finding that but he only thing close to that was he said he felt bad he was done writing T'Challas story after issue 12[/B]

[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2266141]Any chance you remember which of the issues it was in so I can look it up?[/QUOTE]

Panther's Prey #1, page #21

[ATTACH=CONFIG]39493[/ATTACH]

Re-reading it again now, for the first time in years, I see it's part of a conversation that Ramonda has with T'Challa, it's still soon after he first rescued her and she's back in Wakanda trying to get used to all the changes, and she brings up how during her time in captivity she had to learn to suppress her emotions in order to survive and now that she's finally free she doesn't how to be express herself. So the subject isn't quite as random as I'd remembered. I still don't care for it.

[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2266164]If my introduction to tchalla was under Don's pen, I woulda never read a single other issue with him because his only redeeming quality was getting his ass beat.[/QUOTE]

Ditto. If I'd started with Jungle Action I don't think I would have lasted past the first few issues. I do actually respect McGregor for what he was [I]trying[/I] to accomplish. As the story went, he was editing Jungle Action and quickly realized how absurd it was that Marvel was publishing a series set in Africa and all of their stories were about White characters. So the PTB let him take over the series and do what he wanted, and it was his idea to make BP the star, figuring [I]hey, we've got this African superhero around, let's give him this title[/I]. And he was trying to flesh out the character and tell deep lasting stories, doing multi-part arcs which were not common at the time. I can't knock the effort he put into the character, and he clearly did love the character, I just don't think his overall execution was the best. I think his, for lack of a better phrase, good-natured White Liberalism shined through. Even the crack subplot in Panther's Prey, I think he genuinely thought he was being socially conscious and "relevant" in telling that story. It just wasn't right for this character.


[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2266170]^ I like Quest a lot, but the format does it no favors (and makes it difficult to collect).[/QUOTE]


Yes, told through the series Marvel Comics Presents #13-37, in increments of 8-16 pages at a time, it's not easy to get through. But Marvel has collected the Jungle Action run recently, both in print and digitally, so a Panther's Quest collection (not to mention Panther's Prey) isn't out of the question. I'm guessing that with the high profile of BP due to the movies, Marvel is trying to make more of his history available (hence, the collections of the Priest series).


[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2266170]Now if Black Panther Vol. 1 by Jack Kirby was my first introduction, I can't say I'd have kept reading.[/QUOTE]

Seriously, all due respect to THE KING, without whom there would never have been a Black Panther. His first and follow-up appearances in Fantastic Four, by Jack Kirby, were the best, setting the stage for T'Challa as an awesome character. But by the time he returned to Marvel to launch his BP series, he just wasn't the same. He seemed to forget whom he meant Black Panther to be in the first place.

[QUOTE=Jabare;2265274]Oh great BP's on the wrong side.

sigh. I miss this BP

[IMG]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/starwolf_oakley/11581300/484456/484456_800.jpg[/IMG]

heck I miss this BP

[IMG]http://tit-bits.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Civil-War-black-panther.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Both sides are dumb in CWII

[QUOTE=iblogalot;2266449]
Re-reading it again now, for the first time in years, I see it's part of a conversation that Ramonda has with T'Challa, it's still soon after he first rescued her and she's back in Wakanda trying to get used to all the changes, and she brings up how during her time in captivity she had to learn to suppress her emotions in order to survive and now that she's finally free she doesn't how to be express herself. So the subject isn't quite as random as I'd remembered. I still don't care for it.[/QUOTE]

It was also the only opportunity to do any character development for Ramonda (a character he created) since he didn't have an ongoing book to do it in. That meant brief character moments whenever they could be squeezed in. My memory is vague, but I believe there were some moments of Taku and Venomm as well.

[QUOTE=iblogalot;2266475]
Yes, told through the series Marvel Comics Presents #13-37, in increments of 8-16 pages at a time, it's not easy to get through. But Marvel has collected the Jungle Action run recently, both in print and digitally, so a Panther's Quest collection (not to mention Panther's Prey) isn't out of the question. I'm guessing that with the high profile of BP due to the movies, Marvel is trying to make more of his history available (hence, the collections of the Priest series). [/quote]

Hopefully. Panther's Quest is the only Black Panther story I acquired through less than legitimate means because I was trying to read everything in order and it was my obstacle to getting to Priest. I wish McGregor's stuff was on Marvel Unlimited, though (even if Jungle Action is available for digital purchase, it's still not there).

[quote]
Seriously, all due respect to THE KING, without whom there would never have been a Black Panther. His first and follow-up appearances in Fantastic Four, by Jack Kirby, were the best, setting the stage for T'Challa as an awesome character. But by the time he returned to Marvel to launch his BP series, he just wasn't the same. He seemed to forget whom he meant Black Panther to be in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Jack Kirby clearly had specific stories he wanted to tell and Black Panther was the vehicle he had to tell them. McGregor definitely had a lot of fans who appreciated his serious take on the character because fan response even caused Kirby to change his approach - sadly, for better or worse with the Black Musketeers. They're honestly characters I wouldn't mind seeing reimagined today (although they're not entirely consistent with a post-Hudlin Wakanda). I feel the intent was far better than the execution.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/gjULPrd.jpg[/img]


If you are going to tackle something like that, it shouldn't be in a page or two in a comic book and then move on.

[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2266170]
Not his courage and determination and resolve to do the just thing?

Panther's Rage was my first introduction to a Black Panther solo comic and it led me to continue onward to Priest, Hudlin, etc. But it also gave me a perspective that Priest's version is great, but he isn't the only acceptable version.[/quote]

Eh, maybe before the 5th or 6th beat down I could

But after beatdown #72 and then being saved by a small child after getting his ass beat again... yeah. Not my thing at all. That's like being a Ron Weasley fan or something when Harry Potter and Hermione are around lol.

Speaking of Rage specifically, if he would have endured all those beat downs and such, and then rose triumphantly and used every ounce of his being to defeat Killmonger... that would be acceptable. I could possibly dig that.

I do admire what Don did for Wakanda and the mythos in general. Of course, it then got ignored or retconned out later anyway so *shrug*

I didn't start with Priest either. Intro was EMH Panther and then Liss before backtracking to Priest and Co.

[quote]

Now if Black Panther Vol. 1 by Jack Kirby was my first introduction, I can't say I'd have kept reading.[/QUOTE]

That run ain't bad its just WEIRD and just isn't my thing.

[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2265776][SIZE=3]
I really wish people would stop referring to Hickman's usage of T'Challa in the New Avengers/Secret Wars II books as a distinct BP "run" in of itself.

No one refers to Hickman's writing of Dr Strange, Stephen Rogers, Namor, Beast, Stark or Black Bolt in the aformentione NA/SS as being "runs" for any of those characters.

Jonathan Hickmman has (and hopefully will) never written a Black Panther solo book.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

This is actually true.

If anything, it was more a an F4 run... in the end it was a Doom and Reed story with a splash of Panther

[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2266850]This is actually true.

If anything, it was more a an F4 run... in the end it was a Doom and Reed story with a splash of Panther[/QUOTE]

The last third of the story was definately Reed/Doom centric. Though in all fairness the didn't play much of a role in the earlier parts of the story.

Certain characters at certain times got more spotlight than others. At least T'Challa was always on the radar. It wasn't his story, but I do think you can argue his usage by Hickman was the start of marvels push for the character. He started to stand out as much if not more than some of the more established guys like Steve or Tony.

The New Avengers was an ensemble book where the de-facto central character was Black Panther. Where the character's AvX plotlines where picked up
and resolved (maybe you don't like HOW they were resolved, but you got a resolution).

If anything, Reed doesn't become anything close to the central character until the last fourth of the series and not even then.
All the stuff with Not-Sue and Evil Reed and Doom was in Secret Wars.

In Secret Wars the FF were written out of the Marvel Universe (they can still come back whenever somebody figures out how to make THEM sell) so the Reed/Doom war was resolved. That doesn't make 5 years of NA a FF comic by default.

Dr. Doom's physically in the New Avengers book even less than Reed is. Black Bolt and Maximus got more "screen time" in NA than either
Reed or Doom and those characters got less screen time than either Panther or Namor. Or Tony the Iron @$$hole. Or Revenge Mode Steve Rogers.

By that reasoning, NA was an Iron Man v Cap comic.

The big bad of the whole story turned out to be Doom but I can't see why that should be an issue for anybody who been reading Marvel comics for any period of time.

Its ALWAYS Doom when it coms to these type high stakes stories and when it ain't Doom, its Thanos.

But for some people the entire story rose or fell on whether or not T'Challa got payback against Namor. But Hickman had no interest in
killing off the character that he'd gave all the sarcastic quips to. Namor's practically Vegita at this point.

That doesn't mean that Hickman's story didn't service the Black Panther character or brand. Great showings in a book that nobody reads are completely irrelevent.
Look at Captain Marvel. Head of a Space Station and going by sales, nobody cares. For 5 years BP actually had a captive audience thanks to Hickman.

Frankly, the Ultimates is more damaging to BP's brand than Hickman's New Avengers because the general audience could give a crap about that
book or anything that happens in it.

[QUOTE=Vic Vega;2267026]

But for some people the entire story rose or fell on whether or not T'Challa got payback against Namor. But Hickman had no interest in
killing off the character that he'd gave all the sarcastic quips to. Namor's practically Vegita at this point.[/quote]

Eh... I don't know if that is fair. I've been critical of Hickman's run (probably overly so but it pisses me off sometimes) but many of my gripes don't even have to do with T'challa.

Simple stuff like using Time Jumps to resolve conflicts and move the story along, characters acting completely OOC (who the hell leaves Maximus alone with bombs?) to move the story along, and then a completely confusing ending where you can't tell on panel what happened and what didn't happen.

In addition to wasting issue after issue on shit that in the end, didn't matter at all. Which wouldn't be so maddening if he didn't use time jumps to push the plot. Or creating some fun new characters (Swan, Black Order peeps) and then they all die off panel or in one fell, anti climatic swoop.

And then we can get to just Namor. He could have easily killed off the character because he had a perfect vehicle to bring him back from the dead anyway... just like everyone else he killed. SW gave him the ability to do whatever he wanted and still reset the status quo.

Instead, he took a feud that was what... 5 years int he making? (counting AvX)... and resolved it off panel during a time jump.

Or you could have done a lot of fun stuff with Namor and T'challa. Two monarchs. One sold his soul and one refused to. But quips were cooler so whatever (those quips were good though lol) [quote]

Frankly, the Ultimates is more damaging to BP's brand than Hickman's New Avengers because the general audience could give a crap about that
book or anything that happens in it.[/QUOTE]

Not putting BP on an actual true Avengers squad was a 100% missed opportunity. Especially considering how his solo is selling. Marvel missed a chance to drag new comic readers (Coates fans) into a core Marvel title and 100% whiffed instead. You don't take a character that was front and center of a 4 year New Avenger/Avenger arc and then put him on a space team

[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2267069]
Not putting BP on an actual true Avengers squad was a 100% missed opportunity. Especially considering how his solo is selling. Marvel missed a chance to drag new comic readers (Coates fans) into a core Marvel title and 100% whiffed instead. You don't take a character that was front and center of a 4 year New Avenger/Avenger arc and then put him on a space team[/QUOTE]
Just out of curiosity, if you could have, which of the ANAD Avengers teams would you have put Panther on?

[QUOTE=Frontier;2267081]Just out of curiosity, if you could have, which of the ANAD Avengers teams would you have put Panther on?[/QUOTE]

Uncanny would have been the most fun IMO. That team needs a genius on it as well.

Plus he knows Johnny and Cap and Voodoo and seeing Cable and T'challa interact gives me nerdgasms

[QUOTE=Frontier;2267081]Just out of curiosity, if you could have, which of the ANAD Avengers teams would you have put Panther on?[/QUOTE]

In terms of premise Ultimates probably is the most logical team to place T'Challa.

As far as profile I'm all for T'Challa being on a high profile Avengers team premise be damned, but honestly I'm not sure any of the Avengers team at the moment feel very a list. They all seem like satellite books.

The Avengers team post Civil War might change that.