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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3719125][COLOR="#000080"]T'Challa has a Galactus plan but no plan in case Doom, Earth's greatest villain attacks? I'll suspend belief on that one for a moment.
T'Challa doesn't have the foresight to prepare for an armored Doom at the end of Doom War?
Poor writing and execution by another writer who is a "fan" of BP.
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He has a plan against Doom. Their second fight (and first under Hudlin) showed a prepped T'Challa against Doom. He showed up with a means of taking down Dooms tech. That was his ace in the whole.
Problem being that it works both ways. It's not like sparring with a dummy... a real person can fight back. Doom is one of the smartest beings on the planet... probably smarter than T'CHalla to be frank. T'Challa can think 2 steps ahead, but in their second fight so did Doom. T'Challa had a means of shutting down Dooms tech, but Dooms personal army was ready for that.
I think one of the reasons T'CHalla struggles against Doom is that T'CHalla isn't as used to fighting someone as smart as him. No one is BP's rogues gallery is on his level in this regard. Whereas Doom regularly fights Reed Richards, who is as smart (or maybe even a little smarter) than him. It's tough to out tech DOom, who is contatntly at war with Reed Richards. T'Challa didn't have the overwhelming advange in intelligence and tech that he's used to having, and I think that made it tougher for even a prepped T'Challa that time around.
But in the case of Doom War specifically, he did in fact have a means of shutting down Dooms new vibranium armor. He shut down vibranium. He did a move Doom didn't expect and wasnt' ready for, and Doom lost. He didn't get his butt kicked like he arguably should have, but T'Challa does outmaneuver him and win.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3719123]In most instances I'd say other characters don't need power ups.
Spider-Man got multiple in Disassembled and the Other... and those power ups were largely ignored and eventually retconned away. If heroes win 99% of the time at their present power level, they usually don't need power ups. If anything it's the villains that usualy need the power ups, because they're the ones constantly getting their butts kicked.
A few power ups stick (like Blade for example). But generally speaking most heroes are fine the way they are. Which is why a lot of the time power ups and ignored.
If you REALLY want to read about a more powerful character, read Thor. Read Silver Surfer. Those are the guys who are all about straight up power. T'CHalla is a different sort of character. He gets things done in a different way. It's about skill and intelligence. It's about more than just him punching people in the face. He's still one of the most dangerous beings on the planet, but he does it without class 100 strength.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]I'm not talking about Class 100 strength.
Like you said it's not about the power up.
It's about using the skill and tech BP already has which is more than enough for him to handle just about any villain.
But the noticeable thing is that the only writers that have not written BP in deconstruction mode were Priest and Hudlin and their BPs were well-liked by BP fans. Add Liss who built him back up after his lowest point.
Everyone else thinks that they have to continually tear down BP to rebuild him to how they perceive him instead of how he's supposed to be. [/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3719133]He has a plan against Doom. Their second fight (and first under Hudlin) showed a prepped T'Challa against Doom. He showed up with a means of taking down Dooms tech. That was his ace in the whole.
Problem being that it works both ways. [B]It's not like sparring with a dummy... a real person can fight back[/B]. Doom is one of the smartest beings on the planet... probably smarter than T'CHalla to be frank. T'Challa can think 2 steps ahead, but in their second fight so did Doom. T'Challa had a means of shutting down Dooms tech, but Dooms personal army was ready for that.
I think one of the reasons T'CHalla struggles against Doom is that T'CHalla isn't as used to fighting someone as smart as him. No one is BP's rogues gallery is on his level in this regard. Whereas Doom regularly fights Reed Richards, who is as smart (or maybe even a little smarter) than him. It's tough to out tech DOom, who is contatntly at war with Reed Richards. T'Challa didn't have the overwhelming advange in intelligence and tech that he's used to having, and I think that made it tougher for even a prepped T'Challa that time around.
But in the case of Doom War specifically, he did in fact have a means of shutting down Dooms new vibranium armor. He shut down vibranium. He did a move Doom didn't expect and wasnt' ready for, and Doom lost. He didn't get his butt kicked like he arguably should have, but T'Challa does outmaneuver him and win.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]A real person can adapt too. So T'Challa, who is a better tactician than Doom doesn't know how to counter an attack? He has no reflexes or skills?
He only has one plan to handle Doom with no counter?
Again, that's poor writing.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3719135][COLOR="#000080"]I'm not talking about Class 100 strength.
Like you said it's not about the power up.
It's about using the skill and tech BP already has which is more than enough for him to handle just about any villain.
But the noticeable thing is that the only writers that have not written BP in deconstruction mode were Priest and Hudlin and their BPs were well-liked by BP fans. Add Liss who built him back up after his lowest point.
Everyone else thinks that they have to continually tear down BP to rebuild him to how they perceive him instead of how he's supposed to be. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
If we're moving past the notion of power ups, then we're basically on the same page.
I'd miss the Priest BP too. It's why I loved the Liss book... he was able to channel that BP moreso than any of the other writers since Prieste (IMO at least). Liss could kick your butt with stuff he bought at Radio Shack. That's bad @$$.
But as far as deconstruction goes... really was we saw with Maeberry, Hickman, and the earlier part of Coates run was essentially the continuation of the deconstruction we saw when Hudlin had Doom beating T'Challa. He lost his powers and his kingdom and he doesn't really get EVERYTHING back until the end of Secret Wars. Hickman added extra drama which Coates eventually tackles and does away with in his run. But really it's just a matter of multiple writers not rushing to hand wave away T'Challas issues and taking their time to rebuild him.
It's certainly unusual that it took this many writers this long to do that. But I suspect a part of the reason was to protect Shuri a bit. Give her as long as possible to be Black Panther and ruler of Wakanda, so that when she inevitably loses all of that she's left enough of a blue print so that she wont' be completed shelved after T'Challa gets everything he lost back.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3719142][COLOR="#000080"]A real person can adapt too. So T'Challa, who is a better tactician than Doom doesn't know how to counter an attack? He has no reflexes or skills?
He only has one plan to handle Doom with no counter?
Again, that's poor writing.
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Yeah, Hudlin could have had a much longer fight with Doom and T'Challa countering each other page after page until one finally wins. That would have been fun too. I wouldn't call Hudlins fight poor writing exactly... but he could have fleshed it out a bit more.
But it's probably fair to also mention that the fight was interrupted. Storm steps in once Doom had the upperhand and ends the fight. So it's possible T'Challa did have a counter measure that we didn't see because Storm stepped in. T'Challa was out maneuvered and at a disadvantage... but strictly speaking he wasn't beaten just yet. SO who knows.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3719155]Yeah, Hudlin could have had a much longer fight with Doom and T'Challa countering each other page after page until one finally wins. That would have been fun too. I wouldn't call Hudlins fight poor writing exactly... but he could have fleshed it out a bit more.
But it's probably fair to also mention that the fight was interrupted. Storm steps in once Doom had the upperhand and ends the fight. So it's possible T'Challa did have a counter measure that we didn't see because Storm stepped in. T'Challa was out maneuvered and at a disadvantage... but strictly speaking he wasn't beaten just yet. SO who knows.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]That was Hudlin's biggest mistake imo, having such a one-sided fight in his second volume.
But he doesn't get the blame alone. Mayberry takes it even further by having Doom kill family members and assault his wife and T'Challa does nothing.
T'Challa gives Doom a lecture that means nothing and still takes a beating while doing it.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3719180][COLOR="#000080"]That was Hudlin's biggest mistake imo, having such a one-sided fight in his second volume.
But he doesn't get the blame alone. Mayberry takes it even further by having Doom kill family members and assault his wife and T'Challa does nothing.
T'Challa gives Doom a lecture that means nothing and still takes a beating while doing it.
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Hudlin never should of have done it unless he was going to stay around until he could finish his story.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3719034]Make storm a literal god that hangs around Wakanda: not a peep
Even think about giving Panther an ounce more strength: whoa whoa whoa whoa let's not make him Superman.
The other thing I wanted from KotD was a literal power up the closer he got to Necropolis. ie... if you fought T'challa in Necroplis, dude is well past spider-man. farther ou got awway, closer to baseline he got.
But anywho, T'challa's issues were and are not strength related. They are a lack of imagination from his primary writers.
Part of the fun of taking a comic book peak human character who fights above his weight class is that you get fun stuff like SWaD. Where T'challa uses his tactical brain and martial arts ability combined with his CBPH stats to take out people "above" him. It is cool.
Batman is allowed to do shit like:
[img]https://orig00.deviantart.net/a62b/f/2017/341/6/8/batman_vs_solomon_grundy_by_seane-dbut1ls.jpg[/img]
(yes, he OHKO'd solomon grundy....)
[img]https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a6d605bafc597345962b711a24f3d67b[/img]
(yes, he literally hit a Speedster)
Nobody blinks! That shit is cool! I want more!!!!!!!
Mention Black Panther doing a little more and its "whoa whoa whoa let's not get too crazy here."
And then you get relegated to throwing a spear every once in awhile and using other people to beat your villains.[/QUOTE]
If you're going to post things like this call it for what it is racism. Dwayne Mcduffie told the facts about this in a video. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u16sKK-1oLQ[/url]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3719180][COLOR="#000080"]That was Hudlin's biggest mistake imo, having such a one-sided fight in his second volume.
But he doesn't get the blame alone. Mayberry takes it even further by having Doom kill family members and assault his wife and T'Challa does nothing.
T'Challa gives Doom a lecture that means nothing and still takes a beating while doing it.
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Honestly I would have preferred a better fight between T'Challa and Doom too.
But to play devils advocate, I can see what he was going for. This was sort of the equivalent of John Cena vs Brock Lesnar at Summerslam… the villain doesn't just beat the hero. He destroys him, and that helps build up the villain. It creates a scenario where the hero is the genuine underdog (something I don't think T'Challa ever really was in Hudlins run to a large extent), having to deal with a threat that on paper he might not be able to overcome (even though we all know he obviously will in the end).
So while I agree a real fight would have been cooler than a cumberstomp, I can understand it purely from a writing perspective.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3719194]Honestly I would have preferred a better fight between T'Challa and Doom too.
But to play devils advocate, I can see what he was going for. This was sort of the equivalent of John Cena vs Brock Lesnar at Summerslam… the villain doesn't just beat the hero. He destroys him, and that helps build up the villain. It creates a scenario where the hero is the genuine underdog (something I don't think T'Challa ever really was in Hudlins run to a large extent), having to deal with a threat that on paper he might not be able to overcome (even though we all know he obviously will in the end).
So while I agree a real fight would have been cooler than a cumberstomp, I can understand it purely from a writing perspective.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]Like MoS said, if it wasn't going to end with Doom getting the same curb stomp then it it's moot.
BP fans didn't just want a win, they wanted to see Doom get his butt handed to him. What they got was Pyrrhic Victory #99.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=blacksonic;3719192]If you're going to post things like this call it for what it is racism. Dwayne Mcduffie told the facts about this in a video. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u16sKK-1oLQ[/url][/QUOTE]
In all fairness, Batman gets called on for some of his Batgod feats too. Wolverine or Captain America will get that too at times. A list characters wear a lot of plot armor.
The general fan base I think are cool with it. But there's a hardcore element in comics which sort of roll their eyes over guys like Batman and Wolverine doing uber things they shouldn't necessarily be able to do on paper. That sort of comes with the territory of being an A lister.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3719204][COLOR="#000080"]Like MoS said, if it wasn't going to end with Doom getting the same curb stomp then it it's moot.
BP fans didn't just want a win, they wanted to see Doom get his butt handed to him. What they got was Pyrrhic Victory #99.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
And I'd agree. We should have gotten a better fight at the end of Doom War. It was a pretty underwhelming finish to what I would otherwise consider a pretty well written story. T'Challa got all those upgrades that he never really used. That is pretty disappointing.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3719210] T'Challa got all those upgrades that he never really used. That is pretty disappointing.[/QUOTE]
The more you looking into Doomwar, the more of a dumpster fire it was.
T'challa powered himself up with Alchemy, he sacrificed Doras to learn a new fighting style, alienated himself from all of Wakanda to prepare, shadow physics, shadow particle swords or whatever, him and shuri plotting... all for a final confrontation with Doom. It was a classic "training montage" story....
and then he gets his ass beat again lol
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3719034]
The other thing I wanted from KotD was a literal power up the closer he got to Necropolis. ie... if you fought T'challa in Necroplis, dude is well past spider-man. farther ou got awway, closer to baseline he got.
[/QUOTE]
That would be a really interesting take. Sort of a Captain Britain style of power that compels T'Challa to remain at home where he is "supposed to be." So that when he ventures out his powers begin to diminish and have him need to come home to re-power himself. It would also introduce creative ways for villains to try and lure him out or for T'Challa to try and lure them in.
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[QUOTE=Skedatz;3719257]That would be a really interesting take. Sort of a Captain Britain style of power that compels T'Challa to remain at home where he is "supposed to be." So that when he ventures out his powers begin to diminish and have him need to come home to re-power himself. It would also introduce creative ways for villains to try and lure him out or for T'Challa to try and lure them in.[/QUOTE]
Naw F all that weakening stuff lol.
T'challa is still normal Black Panther... he just gets stronger the closer he gets to his "home." Bast increases his abilities to defend Wakanda based on how the world is getting more and more dangerous.
Ain't no weakening happening here!