[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1757351]Other than Maximus, what other villain did they trust?[/QUOTE]
Namor. I dont do anti-hero rationalism( not a shot at you, just a trend I see on CBR)
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1757351]Other than Maximus, what other villain did they trust?[/QUOTE]
Namor. I dont do anti-hero rationalism( not a shot at you, just a trend I see on CBR)
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757346]I think we overrate Doom. You have the smartest man in science and the smartest man in mysticism, and they have tried everything and got nothing. Trusting Doom is never a good thing. Quite frankly trusting villains was the number one mistake that the Illuminati made.[/QUOTE]
It's a risk/reward sort of thing.
If the Illuminati couldn't resolve this on their own then they needed help... and no one on the planet is potentially more helpful than Doom. The fact that he was able to resolve the matter on his own shows that.
But obviously trusting Doom is a problem. I think it's simply a matter of them being desperate enough. I do think there comes a point where it's probably worth the risk to trust Doom. Anything is better than the universe ending.
Course, things worked out BETTER by Doom working indepenently. So what happened was essentially what needed to happen.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1757356]The big different between Reed and T'Challa, both as characters and in the NA / TRO are their obligations.
Reed's obligation is to his family (both his kids and the FF). It's much less complicated for him to keep a secret.
T'Challa's obligation, as a monarch, is to his country. Hence him being banned from Wakanda for harboring Namor. And the minute Storm finds out Shuri banned Wakanda for harboring Namor (or is contemplating it), she would've found out of everything. And the story, at least as T'Challa is concerned, would be very different.
And I have to disagree: Storm might understand why he did it, but I don't think she'll forgive him initially for keeping that kind of secret from her. She's his wife, after all.
And, imho, she would vehemently be against using the bomb. No question.[/QUOTE]
It was wasted opportunity at a powerful scene. You could have done a third series on all the wasted opportunities from Hickman's run. This is coming from a fan of his run.It would be nice, if some writer picked on all the seeds that Hickman planted.
[QUOTE=XPac;1757363]It's a risk/reward sort of thing.
If the Illuminati couldn't resolve this on their own then they needed help... and no one on the planet is potentially more helpful than Doom. The fact that he was able to resolve the matter on his own shows that.
But obviously trusting Doom is a problem. I think it's simply a matter of them being desperate enough. I do think there comes a point where it's probably worth the risk to trust Doom. Anything is better than the universe ending.
Course, things worked out BETTER by Doom working indepenently. So what happened was essentially what needed to happen.[/QUOTE]
Why would any of the Illuminati think that Doom wouldnt be ok with what the Cabal did?
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757346]I think we overrate Doom. You have the smartest man in science and the smartest man in mysticism, and they have tried everything and got nothing. Trusting Doom is never a good thing. Quite frankly trusting villains was the number one mistake that the Illuminati made.[/QUOTE]
It's not really a matter of trust, imho. It's getting the best available people to get the job done, or at least try. And Doom probably fared the best out of everyone in coming up with a solution. Would it have ultimately worked? Maybe not. But it would've make a lot of sense to do so.
I'll give Doom credit on one thing: when it came time to finding a solution, (as written) he had no problem in using his nation's best scientists and resources to do it, something I wish T'Challa would've done.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1757356]The big different between Reed and T'Challa, both as characters and in the NA / TRO are their obligations.
Reed's obligation is to his family (both his kids and the FF). It's much less complicated for him to keep a secret.
T'Challa's obligation, as a monarch, is to his country. Hence him being banned from Wakanda for harboring Namor. And the minute Storm finds out Shuri banned Wakanda for harboring Namor (or is contemplating it), she would've found out of everything. And the story, at least as T'Challa is concerned, would be very different.
And I have to disagree: Storm might understand why he did it, but I don't think she'll forgive him initially for keeping that kind of secret from her. She's his wife, after all.
And, imho, she would vehemently be against using the bomb. No question.[/QUOTE]
Finding out that T'Challa is banned from Wakanda doens't necessarily mean she finds out about everything unless T'Challa decides to tell her everything. It's not impossible to come up with a lie justifying T'Challa work with Namor. It's simply a matter of whether or not T'CHalla wants to come clean or whether he wants to continue to lie.
Storm likely would jeopardize their operation... it MIGHT be in their best interest if he lies.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1757356]The big different between Reed and T'Challa, both as characters and in the NA / TRO are their obligations.
Reed's obligation is to his family (both his kids and the FF). It's much less complicated for him to keep a secret.
T'Challa's obligation, as a monarch, is to his country. Hence him being banned from Wakanda for harboring Namor. And the minute Storm finds out Shuri banned Wakanda for harboring Namor (or is contemplating it), she would've found out of everything. And the story, at least as T'Challa is concerned, would be very different.
And I have to disagree: Storm might understand why he did it, but I don't think she'll forgive him initially for keeping that kind of secret from her. She's his wife, after all.
And, imho, she would vehemently be against using the bomb. No question.[/QUOTE]
Storm was vehemently against X-Force, but that didnt that stop her thirst for the Adamantium.
[QUOTE=XPac;1757335]I imagine T'Challa would do what Reed does with Sue and just keep it to himself. How Storm would handle it after learning the truth is an interesting question. In the least I definately think they'd be going through a rough patch marriage wise.
Storm can likely forgive T'Challa keeping secrets from here... at this point I think she sort of expects it of him to some degree. That's why she was so forgiving in Doom War. But blowing up planets isn't something even Storm is going to gloss over easily.
[B]
But at this point all the heroes seemed to have forgiven each other for everything that occured in Time Runs Out and I'm assuming Storm would do the same.[/B][/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3][B]
Has it even been established how many "heroes" are actually aware of what occured pre ANAD reboot?[/B][/SIZE]
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757319]Even though Kev Walker had them both looking like Whitney and Bobby.[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757375]Why would any of the Illuminati think that Doom wouldnt be ok with what the Cabal did?[/QUOTE]
If we're talking about Time Runs Out, Doom already was ahead of the Illuminati anyways so he probably wouldn't even bother working with them if they asked. He was good on his own.
The point where Doom MIGHT have considered working with them was when he invited Strange and Reed to dinner. That was likely their window for asking him for help, which Reed refused to do likely because of the same concerns you have with working with him.
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757358]Namor. I dont do anti-hero rationalism( not a shot at you, just a trend I see on CBR)[/QUOTE]
Didn't take it as a shot at me my friend.
I just never pictured Namor as a villain pre AvX.
Everything's such a mess now. :(
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757383]Storm was vehemently against X-Force, but that didnt that stop her thirst for the Adamantium.[/QUOTE]
I'm not familiar with X-Force so I can't comment. But do you think she would've been ok with using the bombs, especially with the probability of using it on a habitable planet?
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757354]I call it making love to the woman you love. He wanted to be initimate with the woman he planned to spend the rest of his life with. Booty call would be hitting up Nightshade and Zanda:)[/QUOTE]
And I call it busting a nut at the end of the universe. (shrug)
[QUOTE=XPac;1757377]Finding out that T'Challa is banned from Wakanda doens't necessarily mean she finds out about everything unless T'Challa decides to tell her everything. It's not impossible to come up with a lie justifying T'Challa work with Namor. It's simply a matter of whether or not T'CHalla wants to come clean or whether he wants to continue to lie.
Storm likely would jeopardize their operation... it MIGHT be in their best interest if he lies.[/QUOTE]
Then T'Challa would be putting his marriage at risk. I doubt Storm would let it go as quietly as Shuri did. Whatever T'Challa says, I can see her trying to confirm it. Her husband just got banned from his own country. The same country she would be living in, if she was still married to him.
Either way, T'Challa's journey ends up being very different.
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757346][B]I think we overrate Doom.[/B] You have the smartest man in science and the smartest man in mysticism, and they have tried everything and got nothing. Trusting Doom is never a good thing. Quite frankly trusting villains was the number one mistake that the Illuminati made.[/QUOTE]
They way people around here talk Doom is just some poor misunderstood soul that tries to make the world a better place by those damn "heroes" keep getting in his way.
There is literally nothing that Doom could do that some people wouldn't try and justify or try to explain away as being a "Doombot".
Doom killed an incalculable number of people and all anyone says is "He did what he had to do to save existence". The illuminati reluctantly did the same thing on a MUCH smaller scale and the same people praising Doom talk about how morally reprehensible and stupid the Illuminati were.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1757403]Then T'Challa would be putting his marriage at risk. I doubt Storm would let it go as quietly as Shuri did. Whatever T'Challa says, I can see her trying to confirm it. Her husband just got banned from his own country. The same country she would be living in, if she was still married to him.
If anything, telling storm the truth would be the better thing to do. Lying to her might lead to her actually trying to disrupt things.
Either way, T'Challa's journey ends up being very different.[/QUOTE]
It's quite telling when readers actually come up with story concepts and ideas light years ahead of the creative teams assigned to these books.
Most of us actually have a much better grasp of the characters.:smh:
[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1757411]They way people around here talk Doom is just some poor misunderstood soul that tries to make the world a better place by those damn "heroes" keep getting in his way.
There is literally nothing that Doom could do that some people wouldn't try and justify or try to explain away as being a "Doombot".
Doom killed an incalculable number of people and all anyone says is "He did what he had to do to save existence". The illuminati reluctantly did the same thing on a MUCH smaller scale and the same people praising Doom talk about how morally reprehensible and stupid the Illuminati were.[/QUOTE]
I'v always found this quasi Doom worship somewhat disturbing to say the least.
Appreciating thegenius level intellect is one thing but overlooking his villainy and seeking to cast him as some sort of anti-hero is just.....odd.
[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1757411]They way people around here talk Doom is just some poor misunderstood soul that tries to make the world a better place by those damn "heroes" keep getting in his way.
There is literally nothing that Doom could do that some people wouldn't try and justify or try to explain away as being a "Doombot".
Doom killed an incalculable number of people and all anyone says is "He did what he had to do to save existence". The illuminati reluctantly did the same thing on a MUCH smaller scale and the same people praising Doom talk about how morally reprehensible and stupid the Illuminati were.[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone is necessasrily arguing that Doom is a nice guy... just that he's a guy that can get results. The fact that he was able to resolve the matter sort of shows why he would in theory have been a good person to work with in resolving it.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1757390]Didn't take it as a sot at me my friend.
I just never pictured Namor as a villain pre AvX.
Everything's such a mess now. :([/QUOTE]
So flooding New York and paling around with Dr. Doom is Boy Scout activity? ;)
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1757403]Then T'Challa would be putting his marriage at risk. I doubt Storm would let it go as quietly as Shuri did. Whatever T'Challa says, I can see her trying to confirm it. Her husband just got banned from his own country. The same country she would be living in, if she was still married to him.
If anything, telling storm the truth would be the better thing to do. Lying to her might lead to her actually trying to disrupt things.
Either way, T'Challa's journey ends up being very different.[/QUOTE]
Lying to Storm MIGHT lead to her disrupting things. But telling the truth DEFINATELY will.
We saw the Illuminati mind wipe Steve to keep their secret. Right or wrong, they don't want every hero out there knowing their business because many WILL try and stop them. And there's a descent chance Storm is one of them IF she were to discover the truth.
[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1757411]They way people around here talk Doom is just some poor misunderstood soul that tries to make the world a better place by those damn "heroes" keep getting in his way.
There is literally nothing that Doom could do that some people wouldn't try and justify or try to explain away as being a "Doombot".
Doom killed an incalculable number of people and all anyone says is "He did what he had to do to save existence". The illuminati reluctantly did the same thing on a MUCH smaller scale and the same people praising Doom talk about how morally reprehensible and stupid the Illuminati were.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1757423]I'v always found this quasi Doom worship somewhat disturbing to say the least.
Appreciating thegenius level intellect is one thing but overlooking his villainy and seeking to cast him as some sort of anti-hero is just.....odd.[/QUOTE]
To be clear, all I'm saying that the Illuminati, and especially T'Challa, going to Doom to help find a solution makes sense to me. Considering the magnitude of the problem and that, historically, Doom and T'Challa have worked before, its a plausible thing to happen. Now, whether or not working with Doom blows up in the illuminati's faces is the question.
And like you guys, I'm not sure why Doom is so liked by MU fandom in general. It's rather confusing, imho.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1757452]To be clear, all I'm saying that the Illuminati, and especially T'Challa, going to Doom to help find a solution makes sense to me. Considering the magnitude of the problem and that, historically, Doom and T'Challa have worked before, its a plausible thing to happen. Now, whether or not working with Doom blows up in the illuminati's faces is the question.
And like you guys, I'm not sure why Doom is so liked by MU fandom in general. It's rather confusing, imho.[/QUOTE]
It's not just T'Challa... the hero community has a fair amount of history working with Doom to save the world. In Uncanny Avengers, when the Celestial was about to stomp earth Doom was right there alongside earth's other smart guys working to try and save the planet.
[QUOTE=XPac;1757441]Lying to Storm MIGHT lead to her disrupting things. But telling the truth DEFINATELY will.
We saw the Illuminati mind wipe Steve to keep their secret. Right or wrong, they don't want every hero out there knowing their business because many WILL try and stop them. And there's a descent chance Storm is one of them IF she were to discover the truth.[/QUOTE]
I will edit my previous post. Regardless of what T'Challa says, the minute Storm learns he's banned, she'll disrupt somehow.
T'Challa continues to lie to her and most likely his marriage will basically be in severe turmoil when she finds out. What kind of lie can he tell to Storm that can be a good enough reason to explain why T'Challa is harboring Namor, to the point that he's willing to accept being exiled from his homeland? He can't just give a non-answer like he did to Shuri.
You are also assuming Storm wouldn't want to stay with him. He's her husband, not some random dude. She's isn't simply going to walk away and let him to his own devices.
Eventually, she would've found out. And T'Challa's journey changes.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1757467]I will edit my previous post. Regardless of what T'Challa says, the minute Storm learns he's banned, she'll disrupt somehow.
T'Challa continues to lie to her and most likely his marriage will basically be in severe turmoil when she finds out. What kind of lie he can tell to Storm that can be a good enough reason to explain why T'Challa is harboring Namor, to the point that he's willing to accept being exiled from his homeland? He can't just give a non-answer like he did to Shuri.
You are also assuming Storm wouldn't want to stay with him. He's her husband. She's isn't simply going to walk away and let him to his own devices.
Eventually, she'll find out. And T'Challa's journey changes.[/QUOTE]
Eventually she MIGHT find out... which is why if T'Challa couldn't handle Storm they'd probably have to do to her what they did to Steve. Because at this point T'Challa still believes that the bombs are needed if they can find no other alternative (and he's correct about that in hindsight). Lying to your wife sucks... but your wife dying in an incursion that destroys the universe sucks more. He'll risk his marriage to save her life (and everyone else's life) if it comes to that.
But yes... T'Challa not being married does make his job easier. He would have had to juggle through a lot more hoops to keep Storm from interfering. And honestly he probably would have looked like a terrible husband in the process. So in a way ending the marriage earlier might have done him some favors.
[QUOTE=XPac;1757460]It's not just T'Challa... the hero community has a fair amount of history working with Doom to save the world. In Uncanny Avengers, when the Celestial was about to stomp earth Doom was right there alongside earth's other smart guys working to try and save the planet.[/QUOTE]
Out of curiousity, who was it that triggered the Incursions in the first place again?
His name seems to escape me.
[QUOTE=XPac;1757483]Eventually she MIGHT find out... which is why if T'Challa couldn't handle Storm they'd probably have to do to her what they did to Steve. Because at this point T'Challa still believes that the bombs are needed if they can find no other alternative (and he's correct about that in hindsight). Lying to your wife sucks... but your wife dying in an incursion that destroys the universe sucks more. He'll risk his marriage to save her life (and everyone else's life) if it comes to that.
But yes... T'Challa not being married does make his job easier. He would have had to juggle through a lot more hoops to keep Storm from interfering. And honestly he probably would have looked like a terrible husband in the process. So in a way ending the marriage earlier might have done him some favors.[/QUOTE]
The road to hell has ever been paved with......good intentions.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1757484]Out of curiousity, who was it that triggered the Incursions in the first place again?
His name seems to escape me.[/QUOTE]
I think it rhymes with Fin Fang Foom:)
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1757452]To be clear, all I'm saying that the Illuminati, and especially T'Challa, going to Doom to help find a solution makes sense to me. Considering the magnitude of the problem and that, historically, Doom and T'Challa have worked before, its a plausible thing to happen. Now, whether or not working with Doom blows up in the illuminati's faces is the question.
And like you guys, I'm not sure why Doom is so liked by MU fandom in general. It's rather confusing, imho.[/QUOTE]
I love Doom. I love Namor.
I dont admire them. There is an admiration for villains here that is disturbing.
Also can we please point that Namor's villainy didnt start with Hickman. It was there when Hickman was in high school. It was so prevalent that Byrne had to come up with a bio chemical excuse for it like 20 years ago.
[QUOTE=XPac;1757483]Eventually she MIGHT find out... which is why if T'Challa couldn't handle Storm they'd probably have to do to her what they did to Steve. Because at this point T'Challa still believes that the bombs are needed if they can find no other alternative (and he's correct about that in hindsight). Lying to your wife sucks... but your wife dying in an incursion that destroys the universe sucks more. He'll risk his marriage to save her life (and everyone else's life) if it comes to that.
But yes... T'Challa not being married does make his job easier. He would have had to juggle through a lot more hoops to keep Storm from interfering. And honestly he probably would have looked like a terrible husband in the process. So in a way ending the marriage earlier might have done him some favors.[/QUOTE]
Looked like? If he went the route you mentioned, he would've been fairly classified as a terrible husband, regardless of his intentions. Mind wiping her? Yooo...
Everyone's at risk when the incursions are happening anyway, so why lie to your wife? Especially when she won't let it go. That's just making it worse.
In any case, T'Challa's journey is very, very different if Ororo is around.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1757488]The road to hell has ever been paved with......good intentions.[/QUOTE]
They all look terrible.
The Illuminati was supposed to be good men with good intentions, who all put their souls on the line to save the world.
You didnt see them come out of the abyss until they all refused to pull that trigger...well ....except the teflon tuna:)
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757513]I love Doom. I love Namor.
I dont admire them. There is an admiration for villains here that is disturbing.
Also can we please point that Namor's villainy didnt start with Hickman. It was there when Hickman was in high school. It was so prevalent that Byrne had to come up with a bio chemical excuse for it like 20 years ago.[/QUOTE]
Again, I don't think anyone is nominating Doom for saint hood here. Merely suggesting that it might have been a good idea for the Illuminati to try and work with Doom to resolve the Incursions if they couldn't do it themselves.
Say what you want about Dooms character but his intelligence and resourcefulness are second to none on earth at least. The fact that he was able to work the problem on his own demonstrates some of that.
Again, you can argue that it's risky to work with Doom. They did in fact choose not to. And that's entirely understandable. It was a risk/reward sort of thing.
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757502]I think it rhymes with Fin Fang Foom:)[/QUOTE]
I like you. :cool:
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1757522]Looked like? If he went the route you mentioned, he would've been fairly classified as a terrible husband, regardless of his intentions. Mind wiping her? Yooo...
Everyone's at risk when the incursions are happening anyway, so why lie to your wife? Especially when she won't let it go. That's just making it worse.[/QUOTE]
The reason to lie (and even mind wipe) your wife is the same reason they mind wiped Steve. Because if they know the truth, they will stop them. Or at least try to.
Storm likely won't support using the bombs... but the bombs are the ONLY thing they have to stop the incursions. If Steve or Storm had prevented the Illuminati from using them, they would all be dead. As bad as lying to your wife is, or even mind wiping your wife... if you're T'CHalla that's preferable to her and everyone else dying from an incursion.
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1757522]Looked like? If he went the route you mentioned, he would've been fairly classified as a terrible husband, regardless of his intentions. Mind wiping her? Yooo...
Everyone's at risk when the incursions are happening anyway, so why lie to your wife? Especially when she won't let it go. That's just making it worse.[/QUOTE]
I think TChalla is more than capable of keeping a secret from Storm. Storm has a busy life much like Shuri. Cap only got mind wiped because he switched up on the secret society he joined. Because we all know that secret societies are so cool with opposing viewpoints:)
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757513]I love Doom. I love Namor.
I dont admire them. There is an admiration for villains here that is disturbing.
Also can we please point that Namor's villainy didnt start with Hickman. It was there when Hickman was in high school. It was so prevalent that Byrne had to come up with a bio chemical excuse for it like 20 years ago.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about 1960's-1970's Namor.
That guy was noble as all frak.
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757546]I think TChalla is more than capable of keeping a secret from Storm. Storm has a busy life much like Shuri. Cap only got mind wiped because he switched up on the secret society he joined. Because we all know that secret societies are so cool with opposing viewpoints:)[/QUOTE]
I'm sure T'Challa can keep the secret before the events of infinity. For the most part, things till that point should be the same.
After that, especially once Shuri finds out T'Challa is harboring Namor? Word will get to Storm herself. Thus, the beginning of the end of the secrets.
[QUOTE=XPac;1757544]The reason to lie (and even mind wipe) your wife is the same reason they mind wiped Steve. Because if they know the truth, they will stop them. Or at least try to.
Storm likely won't support using the bombs... but the bombs are the ONLY thing they have to stop the incursions. If Steve or Storm had prevented the Illuminati from using them, they would all be dead. As bad as lying to your wife is, or even mind wiping your wife... if you're T'CHalla that's preferable to her and everyone else dying from an incursion.[/QUOTE]
If you're T'Challa (written by Hickman) you make sweeet lurve to your ex-wife and whilst neglecting to tell her that the world and universe as she knows it, is about to die.
What's a little mind wiping when juxtaposed against that?
[QUOTE=XPac;1757531]Again, I don't think anyone is nominating Doom for saint hood here. Merely suggesting that it might have been a good idea for the Illuminati to try and work with Doom to resolve the Incursions if they couldn't do it themselves.
Say what you want about Dooms character but his intelligence and resourcefulness are second to none on earth at least. The fact that he was able to work the problem on his own demonstrates some of that.
Again, you can argue that it's risky to work with Doom. They did in fact choose not to. And that's entirely understandable. It was a risk/reward sort of thing.[/QUOTE]
Bruh, I love ya like a play cousin. But all Doom did was clean up his own mess. He reversed engineered himself.
This is the conceit of the Illuminati.
Reed:The smartest man in the world
TChalla:Top five smartest man in the world
Iron Man:Top five smartest man in the world
Doctor Strange: Greatest sorceror in the world....dare I say Supreme
Hank McCoy:I say a top ten mind
Black Bolt:Access to all of Attilan's knowledge
Namor:Access to all of Atlantis knowledge
Its why this series was full of despair. These are all the guys that pull miracles out of their pocket, and none of them had anything. Doom isnt smarter than Reed. Doom doesnt know more about Magic than Strange. Doom doesnt have access to the knowledge of Attilan and Atlantis.
Lets not forget guys like Cho,Doc Green,Capt Britain, and Hank Pym were brought in later.
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1757551]I'm talking about 1960's-1970's Namor.
That guy was noble as all frak.[/QUOTE]
Well yeah, 10 years out of 70 aint bad:)
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;1757590]Bruh, I love ya like a play cousin. But all Doom did was clean up his own mess. He reversed engineered himself.
This is the conceit of the Illuminati.
Reed:The smartest man in the world
TChalla:Top five smartest man in the world
Iron Man:Top five smartest man in the world
Doctor Strange: Greatest sorceror in the world....dare I say Supreme
Hank McCoy:I say a top ten mind
Black Bolt:Access to all of Attilan's knowledge
Namor:Access to all of Atlantis knowledge
Its why this series was full of despair. These are all the guys that pull miracles out of their pocket, and none of them had anything. Doom isnt smarter than Reed. Doom doesnt know more about Magic than Strange. Doom doesnt have access to the knowledge of Attilan and Atlantis.
Lets not forget guys like Cho,Doc Green,Capt Britain, and Hank Pym were brought in later.[/QUOTE]
Doom didn't just clean up his own mess. He stopped the Beyonders from destroying the multiverse. Again, without him they would all be dead.
In all fairness because he didn't have to worry about trying to stop the icursions because the Cabal was taking care of that, he could focus more on the actual problem rather than the symptoms of the problem. Nonethelss he got results. And that shouldn't even be that surprising. It's Doom... he's good as this sort of thing.