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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1877927]How bout when T'challa can bust into the A-tier and sustain his own solo with high sales.... that seems like a good time to try.
Gotta have something to spin off of....[/QUOTE]
I did allude to that when saying "now, or soon..." and stating my hope that the movie appearances and a financially sucessful Coates run changes things.
EDIT: Most of the A-list characters today became A-list partially because they had a viable supporting cast being built up with them along the way.
Superman: Lois Lane and Lex Luthor.
Batman: Robin/Nightwing and Joker.
Spider-Man: Green Goblin, Venom, and Mary Jane.
Iron Man: War Machine
Captain America: Falcon and/or Winter Soldier.
Thor: Loki
And so on.
Previous writer inconsistency could be attributed to that. Now is the time to have that consistency, select supporting characters with potential, and build them up as well, while T'Challa is getting that major push.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1877929]Its not anymore top heavy than a lot of characters. Shit, Tony is top heavy as hell.
The problem is writers come in, do their thing, leave, next one comes in, changes stuff, leaves, ect. With a dash of killing people off for no reason. You cannot gain popularity without consistency.
Rogue gallery is more important than anyting else though. That needs fixed first...[/QUOTE]
I consider the Rogue gallery as part of the supporting cast.
Tony is cool but I want T'Challa to have something similar to what Batman has gotten: a good amount of viable supporting casts (Joker, Robin/Nightwing, Catwoman, Batgirl, and more) that can spark good stories from various perspectives and thus expand the popularity of the overall Batman franchise and Batman himself.
And speaking of Tony, Tony is less top-heavy than the BP verse. Tony, at the least, has War Machine. War Machine's popularity >>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone else in the BP supporting cast.
Writer consistency is important, I agree.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1877924]Yeah he is one of the few. And they were able to spin Loki out of it at the moment anyway. Angela has bombed hardcore. When they changed JIM into a Sif oriented book, it bombed as well,.
Batman is obviously the "one" who is able to do the spin off thing well but... thats Batman. I don't think Aquaman (a far as I got) was ever able to dig too deep into Atlantis and I am not sure how his spin off books worked sales wise (The Others and then Mera).[/QUOTE]
Its probably not helpful to compare characters like Batman, Superman and Spider-Man to any other characters, in DC or Marvel.
Those are the exceptions (Also Green Latern under certain cercumstances).
But other than putting a fan favorite writer (Kirion Gillen) on a breakout character (young Loki) none of the Asgard spinoffs have ever worked.
Even the Loki relaunch didn't work. And we assume people care about Asgardians.
There's a good chance that even if they spin Jane Foster into her own book after they bring Thor back that Jane's new book will NOT sell.
Look what happened to Winter Soldier.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1877937]I did allude to that when saying "now, or soon..." and stating my hope that the movie appearances and a financially sucessful Coates run changes things.[/QUOTE]
Also have to factor in this "fandom". Getting BP off the ground and to a new height has darn near taken an act of Congress. While the idea of exploring Wakanda sounds nice, would there be enough support for such a book?
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1877917]Assuming the story and writing is on point, would you be willing learn about an key aspect of Wakanda or something else BP-related from the eyes of another BP character besides T'Challa?[/QUOTE]
Sure, but not at his expense. Been there done that with other characters taking to much panel time. Ross, Killmonger, Kasper, Storm, Shuri...its been done...he's the Star and he is the focus. Wakanda will be explored, but Tchalla will and should be the main vehicle. There are far few pages to sideline him. New fans are going to want to see him in action, with Wakanda as a back drop and supporting role. The people who are riding along with him as the main focus and driver of the story will start to gain fans...then do a off shot story or something. Maybe some one shots or a back up. But T'challa has had co-stars in his last few runs. He only has one book, Ultimate Driving miss Daisy doesn't count. If we get the point where there is more then one book like Ironman, Spidey and Wolvie...I would be all for a book called Wakanda or something.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;1877952]Its probably not helpful to compare characters like Batman, Superman and Spider-Man to any other characters, in DC or Marvel.
Those are the exceptions (Also Green Latern under certain cercumstances).
But other than putting a fan favorite writer (Kirion Gillen) on a breakout character (young Loki) none of the Asgard spinoffs have ever worked.
Even the Loki relaunch didn't work. And we assume people care about Asgardians.
There's a good chance that even if they spin Jane Foster into her own book after they bring Thor back that Jane's new book will NOT sell.
Look what happened to Winter Soldier.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that is what I was getting at.
Spin offs just... crash and burn. Might get one good story out of it if you hit lightning in a bottle but thats pretty much it. Side-kicks are side kicks for a reason.
Hoping for a book to explore a country.... yeah.... that is fan appreciation thread stuff but it aint gonna happen ever
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;1877956]Sure, but not at his expense. Been there done that with other characters taking to much panel time. Ross, Killmonger, Kasper, Storm, Shuri...its been done...he's the Star and he is the focus. Wakanda will be explored, but Tchalla will and should be the main vehicle. There are far few pages to sideline him. New fans are going to want to see him in action, with Wakanda as a back drop and supporting role. The people who are riding alone with him as the main focus and driver of the story will start to gain fans...then do a off shot story or something. Maybe some one shots or a back up. But T'challa has had co-stars in his last few runs. He only has one book, Ultimate Driving miss Daisy doesn't count. If we get the point where there is more then one book like Ironman, Spidey and Wolvie...I would be all for a book called Wakanda or something.[/QUOTE]
Even there "more than one book" still just focused on the main character.
International Iron Man is still Iron Man. Savage Wolverine was still Wolverine stories. Spidey has had more spin offs (Agent Venom, Kaine and such. I wouldnt' count Miles) but once again... its Spider-Man. He is in class all its own at the top with Batman.
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;1877956][B]Sure, but not at his expense[/B]. Been there done that with other characters taking to much panel time. Ross, Killmonger, Kasper, Storm, Shuri...its been done...he's the Star and he is the focus. Wakanda will be explored, but Tchalla will and should be the main vehicle. There are far few pages to sideline him. New fans are going to want to see him in action, with Wakanda as a back drop and supporting role. The people who are riding along with him as the main focus and driver of the story will start to gain fans...then do a off shot story or something. Maybe some one shots or a back up. But T'challa has had co-stars in his last few runs. He only has one book, Ultimate Driving miss Daisy doesn't count. If we get the point where there is more then one book like Ironman, Spidey and Wolvie...I would be all for a book called Wakanda or something.[/QUOTE]
How would learning about a key aspect of Wakanda or something else BP-related from the eyes of another BP character besides T'Challa be at T'Challa's expense? How does that hurt the character?
And to clarify, such a scenario would be down the line, not necessarily in the immediate future.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1877971]Even there "more than one book" still just focused on the main character.
International Iron Man is still Iron Man. Savage Wolverine was still Wolverine stories. Spidey has had more spin offs (Agent Venom, Kaine and such. I wouldnt' count Miles) but once again... its Spider-Man. He is in class all its own at the top with Batman.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
He's actually NOT more top heavy. Ross and Storm were significant, had a lot of panel and dialogue on par with any character you can name. The replacements didn't work... Kasper and Shuri. Not because they suck, its because it was at his expense. I can only speak for myself,but I just want to see him cut loose for once.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1877980]How would learning about a key aspect of Wakanda or something else BP-related from the eyes of another BP character besides T'Challa be at T'Challa's expense? How does that hurt the character?
And to clarify, such a scenario would be down the line, not necessarily in the immediate future.[/QUOTE]
Its been done before. We have seen things before from supporting characters, POV. Not sure why this is even a part of a debate.
Tchalla needs to be treated like other A list characters. That means the focus is on him. We will meet characters on the way that will become popular with fans...but like other A list characters... Tchalla will be driving the vehicle. He is the focus character. Focus. They are supporting characters. That's howit should be. It would be nice to read a comic focused on him. Again, his last few runs he was sharing. Be it his own book or on a team like NA title and now Ultimates.
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I didn't catch this last week, but Marvel.com did an article about the "Best of the Black Panther." I don't really agree with their choices, but it's interesting to see who's runs got included vs. those that didn't make the cut.
[URL="http://marvel.com/cards/262/panthers_pride_best_of_the_black_panther"]http://marvel.com/cards/262/panthers_pride_best_of_the_black_panther[/URL]
Also interesting to compare and contrast it to what got included in their January list:
[URL="http://marvel.com/cards/231/marvel_essentials_black_panther/all"]http://marvel.com/cards/231/marvel_essentials_black_panther/all[/URL]
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[QUOTE=robreedwrites;1877988]I didn't catch this last week, but Marvel.com did an article about the "Best of the Black Panther." I don't really agree with their choices, but it's interesting to see who's runs got included vs. those that didn't make the cut.
[URL="http://marvel.com/cards/262/panthers_pride_best_of_the_black_panther"]http://marvel.com/cards/262/panthers_pride_best_of_the_black_panther[/URL]
Also interesting to compare and contrast it to what got included in their January list:
[URL="http://marvel.com/cards/231/marvel_essentials_black_panther/all"]http://marvel.com/cards/231/marvel_essentials_black_panther/all[/URL][/QUOTE]
Red Zone is an underrated T'challa story
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1877990]Red Zone is an underrated T'challa story[/QUOTE]
Some of his best characterization. One of my favorite Avengers Stories. I won't mind seeing it as a animated feature. Marvel animated studio sucks though.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1877966]Yeah, that is what I was getting at.
Spin offs just... crash and burn. Might get one good story out of it if you hit lightning in a bottle but thats pretty much it. Side-kicks are side kicks for a reason.
Hoping for a book to explore a country.... yeah.... that is fan appreciation thread stuff but it aint gonna happen ever[/QUOTE]
I agree. That's why I said a back-up or one shot, maybe. This would never work and the regular title into this would kill the book fast.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1877937]
EDIT: Most of the A-list characters today became A-list partially because they had a viable supporting cast being built up with them along the way.
[/QUOTE]
There is a difference between building up a supporting cast (which is writing 101) and wanting to delve into the history, mysticism, religion, ect ect of a nation and then creating spin off books from that.
Supporting cast is essential. Knowing the daily life of a Wakanda rhino farmer isn't