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I'm not really a fan of ditching the monarchy and taking away the royal status. I got into T'Challa partly because I find him being a King/royalty who occasionally works as a superhero intriguing and taking that away from him (and Shuri) is taking away what makes them stand out and makes them special. I mean the only other royal/hero in the Marvel universe is who? Black Bolt?
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Don't forget Namor. He's the original King-slash-superhero!
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1747009]Didn't happen on panel so we may never know. What we know is he helped pen and then left T'Challa in a coma and the cleanup to other writers and Marvel editorial. Has Hudlin ever outlined what his plans were? It would be interesting in the extreme to see how far T'Challa's path may have diverged from what his vision for the character might have been.[/QUOTE]
I never said it happened on panel.
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[QUOTE=Lord Morph;1748050]I'm not really a fan of ditching the monarchy and taking away the royal status. I got into T'Challa partly because I find him being a King/royalty who occasionally works as a superhero intriguing and taking that away from him (and Shuri) is taking away what makes them stand out and makes them special. I mean the only other royal/hero in the Marvel universe is who? Black Bolt?[/QUOTE]
Right now it's Madusa...if we're just counting earth heroes at least.
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We should also add Captain Britain. He is both British Royalty and he's also Otherworld-ian Royalty. God knows where he currently is though. Apart from the aforementioned, I guess Thor, Balder and the like count as well. Ares too, since he's the God of War, so he's essentially "Godly Royalty". Really, it depends on how you define it. Morgan Le Fay was the daughter of Avalon Royalty for example, but she never "ruled" in the same vein as T'Challa or Namor. Doom usurped the throne, so again, it depends on what your definition of the term is.
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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;1747488][IMG]https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2016/01/Dab_on_dem_folks/9472ddbb6.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2016/01/ReformLamar/bce769e25.jpg[/IMG]
[url]http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/all/2015/12/conceptualizing-the-black-panther/420759/[/url]
Coates is saying all the right things to get me excited[/QUOTE]
Stelfreeze is that ni**a
[img]http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/cwtf.gif[/img]
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Nobody beats down fellow Wakandans better than T'Challa when it comes to inviting genocidal floods and housing threats to Wakanda within its own borders ala Thanos and the rest of the Cabal.
T'Challa is that dude. :cool:
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1748135]Nobody beats down fellow Wakandans better than T'Challa when it comes to inviting genocidal floods and housing threats to Wakanda within its own borders ala Thanos and the rest of the Cabal.
T'Challa is that dude. :cool:[/QUOTE]
Once again...
Shuri was in charge during avx. Do i need to post the scan again to beat it into the ground?
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1748135]Nobody beats down fellow Wakandans better than T'Challa when it comes to inviting genocidal floods and housing threats to Wakanda within its own borders ala Thanos and the rest of the Cabal.
T'Challa is that dude. :cool:[/QUOTE]
Once again...
Shuri was in charge during avx. Do i need to post the scan again to beat it into the ground?
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My biggest gripe, if coates takes the easy route and gets rid of monarchy which i am not sure ut will be tgat simple, is tgar tchalla literallt just got the crown back.
After hudlin nearly killed him, bp turning into batman in hells kitchen, lingo until the bogus king of dead title, the 4 years of hickmsn.... finally he is king agsin...
And it might all disapear. Lol
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As much as the inherent contradiction with Wakanda is intriguing, I'd rather they take steps into being a truly progressive kingdom; not just in technology but in social structure.
Even if that means T'Challa is no longer King. I however, don't want to see it turn into a democracy. Or not the US style or something like that. There are other options.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1747914]But takes away something cool about them[/QUOTE]
They likely won't take it away so much as tweak it to the point where it'll more resemble a government a modernized society would actually have.
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This topic has been beaten to death already.
The mantle of Black Panther works in tandem with a council that consists of Wakanda's plural society. The title is not 'passed down' instead a character has to earn it through various trials.
[URL=http://s852.photobucket.com/user/FlamingChariot1/media/kingsandqueens.jpg.html][IMG]http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab86/FlamingChariot1/kingsandqueens.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
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[QUOTE=LastManStanding;1748381]This topic has been beaten to death already.
The mantle of Black Panther works in tandem with a council that consists of Wakanda's plural society. The title is not 'passed down' instead a character has to earn it through various trials.
[URL=http://s852.photobucket.com/user/FlamingChariot1/media/kingsandqueens.jpg.html][IMG]http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab86/FlamingChariot1/kingsandqueens.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/QUOTE]
They may have a council, but has that council ever demonstrated that it can act as a legitimate check and balance to the monarchy? I don't believe that's something that's ever truelly been show, and I would imagine the point of Coatees is to have that. I think there needs to be both greater representation and some degree of democratically elected government. The king doesn't need to necessarily be replaced entirely (the UK for example still has one), but honestly not having a modernized structure of government DOES make them look a bit backwards. Honestly I've always felt that way, though I also been willing to look past it since its just a comic book.
And it's all well and good that the title of BP is earned by their god... but it's just as important in this day and age that it's earned by their people as well.
Since Black Panther is a religious title maybe the compromise is that T'Challa just should focus more on his role as essentially the "Pope" of the Panther tribe while an actual president or Prime Miniser is selected to supervise the day to day running of the Kingdom. He can still have the title of King and still have authority in theory over government and military on paper like the UK king on paper is supposed to.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1748396]They may have a council, but has that council ever demonstrated that it can act as a legitimate check and balance to the monarchy? I don't believe that's something that's ever truelly been show, and I would imagine the point of Coatees is to have that. I think there needs to be both greater representation and some degree of democratically elected government. The king doesn't need to necessarily be replaced entirely (the UK for example still has one), but honestly not having a modernized structure of government DOES make them look a bit backwards. Honestly I've always felt that way, though I also been willing to look past it since i[B][SIZE=5]ts just a comic book.[/SIZE][/B]
And it's all well and good that the title of BP is earned by their god... but it's just as important in this day and age that it's earned by their people as well.
Since Black Panther is a religious title maybe the compromise is that T'Challa just should focus more on his role as essentially the "Pope" of the Panther tribe while an actual president or Prime Miniser is selected to supervise the day to day running of the Kingdom. He can still have the title of King and still have authority in theory over government and military on paper like the UK king on paper is supposed to.[/QUOTE]
Bold for importance. Monarchy ain't so cool in real life...
but in comics when your king is a superpowered genius... lil better lol
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[QUOTE=XPac;1748396]The king doesn't need to necessarily be replaced entirely (the UK for example still has one), but honestly not having a modernized structure of government DOES make them look a bit backwards.[/QUOTE]
To you, perhaps. Wakanda's current style of leadership resulted in the nation being the most advanced nation on Earth. And, as far as we know, the Wakandans have always rallied around their royal family, and especially their BP, for good reason: the BPs have been source of great leadership. There's more than one effective way to govern a nation outside of a democracy.
It's not only very recently (and that's a discussion in of itself) that Wakanda began succumbing to attacks.
Lastly, I'm also against Wakanda shifting into a Western-style government.
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1747713]A change from a monarchy might just free up both T'Challa and Shuri to roam the world of superherodom.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps, but their royal status, to me, made them standout from the pack.
Many heroes have a variation of their abilities and even their intelligence. It's their responsibilities as heads of state that, among other things, gives them a clear purpose and far bigger responsibilities than most characters in the MU.
Thus, I never really saw either T'Challa or Shuri as "superheroes" in the first place, even when T'Challa occasionally dabbled with it. And in Shuri's case, I don't see her wanting to be one at all.
They can still be well involved in the MU with their royalty status. It's up to writers to make it happen.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1748562]Perhaps, but their royal status, to me, made them standout from the pack.
Many heroes have a variation of their abilities and even their intelligence. It's their responsibilities as heads of state that, among other things, gives them a clear purpose and far bigger responsibilities than most characters in the MU.
Thus, I never really saw either T'Challa or Shuri as "superheroes" in the first place, even when T'Challa occasionally dabbled with it. And in Shuri's case, I don't see her wanting to be one at all.
They can still be well involved in the MU with their royalty status. It's up to writers to make it happen.[/QUOTE]
Shuri definitely isn't. Only time she dabbled in it, she got Wakanda flooded by Namor.
I think T'challa is 100% hero though. Maybe in the beginning when they said he joined Avengers to spy on them mostly, but since then, his actions have been very super-heroy for both the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and Illuminati stuff. And now Ultimates.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1748577]Shuri definitely isn't. Only time she dabbled in it, she got Wakanda flooded by Namor.
I think T'challa is 100% hero though. Maybe in the beginning when they said he joined Avengers to spy on them mostly, but since then, his actions have been very super-heroy for both the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and Illuminati stuff. And now Ultimates.[/QUOTE]
He has heroic tendencies sure, but a hero outright? I'll disagree. And if he is, he shouldn't be, given his position.
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Do people really want to read about a democracy? Don't we have enough of all these broken systems destroying lives everyday in the so called 'free world'? I like reading about a king who has his country and peoples interest as a priority even if he doesn't always do the right thing.
A monarchy only seems backwards because it's in our worlds history and that time has moved on. There's no reason why it can't work and be exciting to read in a fictional world. Isn't part of the greatness of Priest's early run that T'Challa stands in the face of corrupt officials who deem themselves above him because of their political systems and prejudices? I don't want the same again but you remove all that potential by giving us the same damn thing that the rest of the world, real and fictional, have.
I don't know if that is what's going to happen in the new book but that's how I feel about that concept if it ever happens.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1748545]To you, perhaps. Wakanda's current style of leadership resulted in the nation being the most advanced nation on Earth. And, as far as we know, the Wakandans have always rallied around their royal family, and especially their BP, for good reason: the BPs have been source of great leadership. There's more than one effective way to govern a nation outside of a democracy.
It's not only very recently (and that's a discussion in of itself) that Wakanda began succumbing to attacks.
Lastly, I'm also against Wakanda shifting into a Western-style government.[/QUOTE]
Not JUST to me ... but also to the guy writing the book. That's the important thing.
But T'Challa has had several coups against him so the notion of unrest didn't come out of nowhere. And recent events likely would escalate that.
Not saying anyone else could do better in T'Challa's shoes ... but unrest is understandable.
As far as democracy goes ... whether or not you feel it's effective I think in the least it's understandable that people would want it. It's entirely believable that people in any nation in modern times would want more of a voice.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1748598]He has heroic tendencies sure, but a hero outright? I'll disagree. And if he is, he shouldn't be, given his position.[/QUOTE]
To be meta about this, he's a super hero in a super hero comic.
King is just the cool job this particular super hero is given. It's a big part of who the character is .... but he's still first and foremost a super hero. Running Wakanda has always been secondary to telling a story of him punching out bad guys in a cat suit.
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[QUOTE=Dayle88;1748611]Do people really want to read about a democracy? Don't we have enough of all these broken systems destroying lives everyday in the so called 'free world'? I like reading about a king who has his country and peoples interest as a priority even if he doesn't always do the right thing.
A monarchy only seems backwards because it's in our worlds history and that time has moved on. There's no reason why it can't work and be exciting to read in a fictional world. Isn't part of the greatness of Priest's early run that T'Challa stands in the face of corrupt officials who deem themselves above him because of their political systems and prejudices? I don't want the same again but you remove all that potential by giving us the same damn thing that the rest of the world, real and fictional, have.
I don't know if that is what's going to happen in the new book but that's how I feel about that concept if it ever happens.[/QUOTE]
Cosign.
No system is inherently superior to the other. For certain nations, democracy works. For many other across the world, it doesn't. Not using democracy doesn't make a nation backward, especially when said nation has made significant headway using a different system in its history.
Wakanda, in the MU, is well ahead of nations using a democratic system. And more importantly, they have had good to great leadership in its history. As the current ruler, T'Challa (bs writing aside) has not only followed this tradition but has been willing to make the right decision over and over again, even if its initially unpopular with his people.
I expect a reshuffling of the Wakandan government, but I really don't want a western style government to come out of it all. It would almost insinuate that western style > all. Which obviously isn't true.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1748625]To be meta about this, he's a super hero in a super hero comic.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but I'm not into being meta.
He's first and foremost the King of Wakanda, who primary responsibility is to his people and his nation. Even Priest recognized that fact and added that T'Challa joined the Avengers to spy on them.
That he dabbles with super heroism is def part of his character and helps him be even more unique, but from a storytelling perspective, that's not his number one priority, nor should it be.
I suspect Coates is going bring up that issue in particular when the antagonists bring up their grievances with the royal family, and especially T'Challa.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1748577]Shuri definitely isn't. Only time she dabbled in it, she got Wakanda flooded by Namor.
I think T'challa is 100% hero though. Maybe in the beginning when they said he joined Avengers to spy on them mostly, but since then, his actions have been very super-heroy for both the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and Illuminati stuff. And now Ultimates.[/QUOTE]
In all fairness, the majority of his 'hero' career has been part of a larger and more important team. The Avengers, FF, Illuminati and now Ultimates protect either the world or reality at large.
So it's not so much as dodging his responsibilities so much as it is about practicing them on a greater scale.
Excluding Fantastic Force, because reasons ;)
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1748633]I'm not into being meta.
He's first and foremost the King of Wakanda, who primery responsibility is to his people and his nation. Even Priest recognized that fact and added that T'Challa joined the Avengers to spy on them.
That he dabbles with super heroism is def part of his character and helps him be even more unique, but from a storytelling perspective, that's not his number one purpose.
I suspect Coates is going bring up that issue in particular when the antagonists bring up their grievances with the royal family, and especially T'Challa.[/QUOTE]
Problem being his top priority often isn't Wakanda. It's often running off to play super hero with his buddies stateside.
That's likelihood a big part of why coups keep popping up in Wakanda.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;1748638]In all fairness, the majority of his 'hero' career has been part of a larger and more important team. The Avengers, FF, Illuminati and now Ultimates protect either the world or reality at large.
So it's not so much as dodging his responsibilities so much as it is about practicing them on a greater scale.
Excluding Fantastic Force, because reasons ;)[/QUOTE]
If he had time to be a school teacher in Harlem while he was an Avenger, then I think you can credibly argue he was dodging his responsibility to Wakanda to some degree. Or at least that's how I would have viewed it if I were a Wakandan. What would the GOP be saying about Obama if he spent lived in France and taught 5th grade?
You can put band aids on the issue, or just flat ignore it (which is probably the way to go), but realistically there's no way you can entirely reconcile that T'Challa being a full time super hero makes him come off as a negligent king. Shuri being Wakanda's actual ruler intead of T'Challa was the only time that was realistically enough addressed. Because it's a comic book I think they can get away with readers simply using their suspection of belief to overlook the matter... but it's harder to do when the stories themselves show unrest in Wakanda.
I think it was in Hudlins run where T'Challa was off fighting zombies in space with the FF while US battleships were parked off the coast of his nation. People were essentially saying "WTF" about his absense, and rightfully so. But that's what it means to be super hero. Even one that's a king. Occasionally you're called away to fight zombies in space. That's just how it is.
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I wonder if they will change Black Panther to simply be "protector of Wakanda" only instead of king and protector. Instead it will be some sort of council with actual power in place
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1748737]I wonder if they will change Black Panther to simply be "protector of Wakanda" only instead of king and protector. Instead it will be some sort of council with actual power in place[/QUOTE]
I suspect that's how it will be done.
The one positive about that is, storytelling wise, this is a great opportunity for the other tribes in Wakanda to be showcased. As well as, depending on how its done, his supporting cast as well.
I do think the BP will still have a lot of military authority however. Probably the highest authority militarily.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1748737]I wonder if they will change Black Panther to simply be "protector of Wakanda" only instead of king and protector. Instead it will be some sort of council with actual power in place[/QUOTE]
In the least I think T'Challa will still have religious and military authority. Those are the aspects most important to storytelling.
But I'm doubtful he loses the title of King. Regardless of whether or not he's still charged with the day to day operations of the country, he'll likely keep his title if for no other reason than because it makes him sound cooler.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1748701]If he had time to be a school teacher in Harlem while he was an Avenger, then I think you can credibly argue he was dodging his responsibility to Wakanda to some degree. Or at least that's how I would have viewed it if I were a Wakandan. What would the GOP be saying about Obama if he spent lived in France and taught 5th grade?
You can put band aids on the issue, or just flat ignore it (which is probably the way to go), but realistically there's no way you can entirely reconcile that T'Challa being a full time super hero makes him come off as a negligent king. Shuri being Wakanda's actual ruler intead of T'Challa was the only time that was realistically enough addressed. Because it's a comic book I think they can get away with readers simply using their suspection of belief to overlook the matter... but it's harder to do when the stories themselves show unrest in Wakanda.
[B]I think it was in Hudlins run where T'Challa was off fighting zombies in space with the FF while US battleships were parked off the coast of his nation. People were essentially saying "WTF" about his absense, and rightfully so.[/B] But that's what it means to be super hero. Even one that's a king. Occasionally you're called away to fight zombies in space. That's just how it is.[/QUOTE]
They were literally LOST in space at the time. It's not like he just left on a whim to go fight zombies in space. King Solomons Frogs were screwing with them. They were trying to get home but couldn't.
The stuff where he was a School teacher was stupid and rightfully called out. His tenures with the Avengers makes since given the scale of threats they face and his original reasoning for joining the team.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1748761]They were literally LOST in space at the time. It's not like he just left on a whim to go fight zombies in space. King Solomons Frogs were screwing with them. They were trying to get home but couldn't.
The stuff where he was a School teacher was stupid and rightfully called out. His tenures with the Avengers makes since given the scale of threats they face and his original reasoning for joining the team.[/QUOTE]
I'm not blaming T'Challa at all for what happened, but at the same time that sort of thing can happen when you're a full time super hero. It's not something you can necessarily schedule into your calander. You can get trapped in space or lost in time or locked up in a super villains evil lair. These things happen. What's going on in Ewings book right now can EASILY keep T'Challa from showing up to his next budget meeting.
Being a ruler is a full time job, and you can make the credible arguement that Wakanda deserves a full time king. The counter arguement is that there's no way they could find someone smarter or more qualified and a part time T'Challa is better than any full time person they could ever get. But it's nonetheless a very valid and realistic issue for Wakandan to have.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1748396]They may have a council, but has that council ever demonstrated that it can act as a legitimate check and balance to the monarchy? I don't believe that's something that's ever truelly been show, and I would imagine the point of Coatees is to have that. I think there needs to be both greater representation and some degree of democratically elected government. The king doesn't need to necessarily be replaced entirely (the UK for example still has one), but honestly not having a modernized structure of government DOES make them look a bit backwards. Honestly I've always felt that way, though I also been willing to look past it since its just a comic book.
And it's all well and good that the title of BP is earned by their god... but it's just as important in this day and age that it's earned by their people as well.
Since Black Panther is a religious title maybe the compromise is that T'Challa just should focus more on his role as essentially the "Pope" of the Panther tribe while an actual president or Prime Miniser is selected to supervise the day to day running of the Kingdom. He can still have the title of King and still have authority in theory over government and military on paper like the UK king on paper is supposed to.[/QUOTE]
None of what you've typed here, changes the fact that Coate's statement about Wakanda's rulership being passed down generationally is totally untrue which in turn means that his "need" to "cobble" something "new" is founded upon a false premise right from jump.
It's funny how Marvel keep coming up with all these writers who just can't seem to bring themselves to write T'Challa, his supporting characters and Wakanda properly without the need to apply unnecessary tweaks here and there thus frak'ing up the BP mythos in the process.
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[QUOTE=LastManStanding;1748381]This topic has been beaten to death already.
The mantle of Black Panther works in tandem with a council that consists of Wakanda's plural society. The title is not 'passed down' instead a character has to earn it through various trials.
[URL=http://s852.photobucket.com/user/FlamingChariot1/media/kingsandqueens.jpg.html][IMG]http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab86/FlamingChariot1/kingsandqueens.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/QUOTE]
And once again scans provide context that some writers (and readers) fail to observe when making bold statements of intent.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1748793]And once again scans provide context that some writers (and readers) fail to observe when making bold statements of intent.[/QUOTE]
[B]I think what needs to happen is a mix of Hudlin's initial design of becoming BP and Priest's, Hudlin's rjb showed that once a year, anyone could challenge the current BP andbifbtuey bested them in battle, then they can take the mantle, follow that up with Priest's run where they then need to go through rigorous trials as well as defeat Wakandas 6 elite warriors. Then they take the herb to be judged by Bast, I'd they succeed and Bast excepts them as worthy then they become BP.
That means that it makes being BP harder and you have to prove your worth and anyone who can do all of that and succeed IS the most capable to take the mantle[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1748862][B]I think what needs to happen is a mix of Hudlin's initial design of becoming BP and Priest's, Hudlin's rjb showed that once a year, anyone could challenge the current BP andbifbtuey bested them in battle, then they can take the mantle, follow that up with Priest's run where they then need to go through rigorous trials as well as defeat Wakandas 6 elite warriors. Then they take the herb to be judged by Bast, I'd they succeed and Bast excepts them as worthy then they become BP.
That means that it makes being BP harder and you have to prove your worth and anyone who can do all of that and succeed IS the most capable to take the mantle[/B][/QUOTE]
There have been times when being BP was not the same as being King
ala Killmonger and T'challa at one point.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1748862][B]I think what needs to happen is a mix of Hudlin's initial design of becoming BP and Priest's, Hudlin's rjb showed that once a year, anyone could challenge the current BP andbifbtuey bested them in battle, then they can take the mantle, follow that up with Priest's run where they then need to go through rigorous trials as well as defeat Wakandas 6 elite warriors. Then they take the herb to be judged by Bast, I'd they succeed and Bast excepts them as worthy then they become BP.
That means that it makes being BP harder and you have to prove your worth and anyone who can do all of that and succeed IS the most capable to take the mantle[/B][/QUOTE]
Considering the herb is poisonous to anyone outside of the royal family (and Spider-Man) really that whole trial is essentially rigged. You could almost look at it as a clever way of eliminating potential challengers to the throne. Even if you win, you lose... just ask Killmonger.
A Mortal Kombat style fighting tournament plays out well in comics (and video game), but as a means of establishing government you can sort of argue it adds to that notion that Wakanda sort of books backward as far as their political structure goes. Granted it's the tradition of a warrior culture but still... you're establishing government with a fighting tournament.
Not knocking the tournament mind you... as I said it's just a comic book so it's all fun. I'm just playing devil's advocate as far as the notion of the advanced nation on the planet having somewhat of a backwards looking government.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1748868]There have been times when being BP was not the same as being King
ala Killmonger and T'challa at one point.[/QUOTE]
You mentioned it earlier, but the EASIEST thing to do would just be to seperate the job of ruler from protector.
They sort of did that with Shuri and I guess in theory they could do it again if they wanted to. Have Shuri as the ruler as far as running the place, but keep T'Challa as Basts spiritual champion who likely has control over the military.
It gives Shuri something to do. I still believe though they need to refer to T'Challa as King. They could gives Shuri some other title which might be equivalent of President or Prime Minister.
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[url]http://i.imgur.com/Dfwh6Xa.jpg[/url]
I laughed.