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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3719034]Make storm a literal god that hangs around Wakanda: not a peep
Even think about giving Panther an ounce more strength: whoa whoa whoa whoa let's not make him Superman.
The other thing I wanted from KotD was a literal power up the closer he got to Necropolis. ie... if you fought T'challa in Necroplis, dude is well past spider-man. farther ou got awway, closer to baseline he got.
But anywho, T'challa's issues were and are not strength related. They are a lack of imagination from his primary writers.
Part of the fun of taking a comic book peak human character who fights above his weight class is that you get fun stuff like SWaD. Where T'challa uses his tactical brain and martial arts ability combined with his CBPH stats to take out people "above" him. It is cool.
Batman is allowed to do shit like:
[img]https://orig00.deviantart.net/a62b/f/2017/341/6/8/batman_vs_solomon_grundy_by_seane-dbut1ls.jpg[/img]
(yes, he OHKO'd solomon grundy....)
[img]https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a6d605bafc597345962b711a24f3d67b[/img]
(yes, he literally hit a Speedster)
Nobody blinks! That shit is cool! I want more!!!!!!!
Mention Black Panther doing a little more and its "whoa whoa whoa let's not get too crazy here."
And then you get relegated to throwing a spear every once in awhile and using other people to beat your villains.[/QUOTE]
But funnily enough, when we post stuff like this, some choose to accuse readers who aren't drinking the Coates Koolaid, of downgrading T'Challa.
That's all on Coates, but I can see why it's easier to engage in misdirection rather than genuine debate based on printed fact.
Mephisto wept.
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[QUOTE=dkrook;3719041]LOL, those post highlight i think he should just get outright powershift, cause bro I'm scratching my head with both hands on how they wrote Batman to do these and so many other Jesus class feats![/QUOTE]
Just write Panther as a top 10 genius, top ten martial artist, chess playing, pokerface, prep beast, warrior king with access to a super metal and i don't need any power ups.
Just write the damn character!
If Batman can do shit like that, Murdock can do all the ridiculous stuff he does, Cap can do all the stuff he does, ect ect ect then Panther should be able to too!
The character, as presented by Coates, would be better off sitting in his palace and telling other more capable people to do shit for him.
"Hey shuri, we have some bad guys on the border, go fly over then and take care of it for me with your stone/bird/zombie/super speed/high level martial artist power please."
"hey storm, we have a possible super being in birnin who-gives-a-shit... we need a god blast pronto. i'll start the prayer circle"
"hey eden, the Wakanda bus system is down again, I need you to teleport 30 people from the river lands to the alkama fields please"
"yo chang, can you lead us in a nation wide prayer today? k thanks"
"THUNDERBALL! my dude, i know you are a bad guy and all but can you take this super science stuff and go teach our people please? thanks! be good!"
"MA! how is you new home? Do you need some more territory? If so, just go ahead and kill the people living there and take it. I'll pardon you later."
"HODARI! bring me lunch bitch!"
"Kasper, i got some detective work for you. Can you try and find Taku and Ngassi? I miss those dudes. I think they are lsot int he technojungle somewhere"
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[QUOTE=dkrook;3719020]I disagree, giving T'challa 100 class strength doesn't make him anything close to "Superman" it just means people couldn't rank him as street level. Good writers craft stories for stronger characters all the time and i think its silly to believe that a strengh enhanced Black Panther all of a sudden becomes burdensome concept. It's funny to consider that his lady is being made into a god and was given a repurposed villian that easily, as I'm thinking of this.[/QUOTE]
It's not that it's a burden... it's simply a question of whether or not one needs or wants to make him a class 100 character. You can come up with a reason to make any character 100 times stronger if you really want to, but is there a point to it. They could decide to give Hulk the ability to run at light speed or Captain America an intelligence boost so he's one of the smartest beings on the planet, but is there a reason to do it beyond just making him more powerful for the sake of being more powerful? It's never about making the characters as powerful as possible... it's about making them just powerful enough to do what they need to do, because you don't want to make things easier for them. If anything you want the exact opposite.
The simply truth is that he's fine as is. He hasn't had class 100 strength for decades, so why give it to him now? He has strengths in other areas beyond what he can bench press. He's a character that's more about skill than about strength. Just like Hulk is about strength... yeah you can decide one way to make Hulk an uber martial artist, but why? He's fine the way he is. I think it's good to have characters at marvel with different power sets abilities that approach and deal with problems in different ways. T'Challa is a guy that doesn't necessary just punch things with in the face. He deals with them with a certain degree of skill and finess, without allowing his powers to overshadow his other talents. To make him a hundred times stronger changes the way he's handled, just like it would if Hulk was made a hundred times faster or Hulk was given uber martial arts skills out of the blue one day. If writers want to read stories about guys who are super strong, read Hulk. Black Panther is a different sort of character and should be.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3719058]Just write Panther as a top 10 genius, top ten martial artist, chess playing, pokerface, prep beast, warrior king with access to a super metal and i don't need any power ups.
Just write the damn character!
If Batman can do shit like that, Murdock can do all the ridiculous stuff he does, Cap can do all the stuff he does, ect ect ect then Panther should be able to too!
The character, as presented by Coates, would be better off sitting in his palace and telling other more capable people to do shit for him.
"Hey shuri, we have some bad guys on the border, go fly over then and take care of it for me with your stone/bird/zombie/super speed/high level martial artist power please."
"hey storm, we have a possible super being in birnin who-gives-a-shit... we need a god blast pronto. i'll start the prayer circle"
"hey eden, the Wakanda bus system is down again, I need you to teleport 30 people from the river lands to the alkama fields please"
"yo chang, can you lead us in a nation wide prayer today? k thanks"
"THUNDERBALL! my dude, i know you are a bad guy and all but can you take this super science stuff and go teach our people please? thanks! be good!"
"MA! how is you new home? Do you need some more territory? If so, just go ahead and kill the people living there and take it. I'll pardon you later."
"HODARI! bring me lunch bitch!"
"Kasper, i got some detective work for you. Can you try and find Taku and Ngassi? I miss those dudes. I think they are lsot int he technojungle somewhere"[/QUOTE]
If this happened XPac would complain that he didn't get permission from his tribal council before barking orders.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3719034]Make storm a literal god that hangs around Wakanda: not a peep
Even think about giving Panther an ounce more strength: whoa whoa whoa whoa let's not make him Superman.
The other thing I wanted from KotD was a literal power up the closer he got to Necropolis. ie... if you fought T'challa in Necroplis, dude is well past spider-man. farther ou got awway, closer to baseline he got.
But anywho, T'challa's issues were and are not strength related. They are a lack of imagination from his primary writers.
Part of the fun of taking a comic book peak human character who fights above his weight class is that you get fun stuff like SWaD. Where T'challa uses his tactical brain and martial arts ability combined with his CBPH stats to take out people "above" him. It is cool.
Batman is allowed to do shit like:
[img]https://orig00.deviantart.net/a62b/f/2017/341/6/8/batman_vs_solomon_grundy_by_seane-dbut1ls.jpg[/img]
(yes, he OHKO'd solomon grundy....)
[img]https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a6d605bafc597345962b711a24f3d67b[/img]
(yes, he literally hit a Speedster)
Nobody blinks! That shit is cool! I want more!!!!!!!
Mention Black Panther doing a little more and its "whoa whoa whoa let's not get too crazy here."
And then you get relegated to throwing a spear every once in awhile and using other people to beat your villains.[/QUOTE]
Though I'm not a DC guy, I've honestly heard plenty of people make complaints about "BatGod" occasionally overdoing it with some of his feats. Course, he's an A lister and that occasionally happens.
I won't say those 2 instances were necessarily complained about, and maybe the Grundy one makes sense (speedsers in DCU under perform all the time so that one isn't out of the ordinary.... Slade has been KOing Wally for decades even though it doesn't entirely make sense).
But characters beat more powerful characters all the time in comics. Anyone can beat anyone else. It's a matter of execution. And that's why T'Challa doesn't need class 100 strength. He can already beat characters vastly more powerful than himself. He's already arguably one of the most dangerous people on the planet. He doesn't need more power. He just need to be written better at times, that's all.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3719046]He is a physical and intellectual match for Doom. The edge Doom would have in magic should cancel out with T'challa havign a severe edge in pure martial arts ability.
The issue is, no freaking writer will stop wanking for Doom. THey can't stop themselves.
I have no problem with Namor having a severe physical edge because we have seen time and time again T'challa can still deal with him. T'challa has a ridiculous mental edge over namor and has used tech over and over again to hurt him.
T'challa has counter measures for Namor (that sun sand basically destroys him) but once again, "derp derp can't beat namor need Black Bolt to do it." crap happens[/QUOTE]
To be honest, I don't think a martial arts edge necessarily cancels out an edge in magic. Put Shang Chi against Dr. Strange, and I'd give it to Strange 9 times out of 10. No offense to Chang. Once they decided that Strange was a near Dr. Strange level mage, he on paper had the edge in a one on one straight fight against most heroes.
That said, T'CHalla should have cleanly beaten him more often than he has. For whatever reason a lot of writers (even Hudlin interestingly enough) had Doom straight up beating T'CHalla without T'CHalla beating him in return at the end of the story. And that is unual that it has happened to that degree under different writers.
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[QUOTE=dkrook;3719041]LOL, those post highlight i think he should just get outright powershift, cause bro I'm scratching my head with both hands on how they wrote Batman to do these and so many other Jesus class feats![/QUOTE]
Batman is Batman. He's an A lister, and A listers tend to rise to the occasion. You can call it plot armor or whatever, but A listers overtime tend to be more protected overtime. The biggest exception to that is probably Spider-Man who does legit always rise to the occasion in the end, but tends to under perform just as much because he needs to be written as the underdog fighting from the bottom. Parker doesn't need to be written as uber cool like Batman or Wolverine or whatever.
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[QUOTE=Things Fall Apart;3719064]If this happened XPac would complain that he didn't get permission from his tribal council before barking orders.[/QUOTE]
In all fairness, if you read this board I'm generally the one NOT complaining about what he's doing. Just saying.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3719088]To be honest, I don't think a martial arts edge necessarily cancels out an edge in magic. Put Shang Chi against Dr. Strange, and I'd give it to Strange 9 times out of 10. No offense to Chang. Once they decided that Strange was a near Dr. Strange level mage, he on paper had the edge in a one on one straight fight against most heroes.
That said, T'CHalla should have cleanly beaten him more often than he has. For whatever reason a lot of writers (even Hudlin interestingly enough) had Doom straight up beating T'CHalla without T'CHalla beating him in return at the end of the story. And that is unual that it has happened to that degree under different writers.[/QUOTE]
If Doom was using spells in their fights, I would buy this argument. Instead he just straight up mollywhops T'challa.
Also, straight cancel out, of course not. But, what I meant (and poorly explained) was that, Martial Art's is T'challa's edge. IF he can get in close, IF he can turn it into a brawl somehow, that is his avenue to win.
It should be the straight opposite for Doom, he should be throwing out crimson bands and shit like that from the start.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3719075]Though I'm not a DC guy, I've honestly heard plenty of people make complaints about "BatGod" occasionally overdoing it with some of his feats. Course, he's an A lister and that occasionally happens.
I won't say those 2 instances were necessarily complained about, and maybe the Grundy one makes sense (speedsers in DCU under perform all the time so that one isn't out of the ordinary.... Slade has been KOing Wally for decades even though it doesn't entirely make sense).
[B]But characters beat more powerful characters all the time in comics. Anyone can beat anyone else. It's a matter of execution. And that's why T'Challa doesn't need class 100 strength. He can already beat characters vastly more powerful than himself. He's already arguably one of the most dangerous people on the planet. He doesn't need more power. He just need to be written better at times, that's all[/B].[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]All we've had for the past 2 years is poor execution. If T'Challa doesn't need a power up, why do other characters around him get one?
DC continues to give BP feats and it's got nothing to do with being A-list. Thor wasn't A-list and he kicked ass. Daredevil isn't A-list and he gets to kick ass. Green Lantern isn't A-List and he gets feats.
If Coates simply studied T'Challa and what he could do and his skill set and tech, then he could have upgraded the villains BP faced during his two arcs and made them more credible threats. Every villain has been lackluster and there has been no true sense of drama.
Coates just made T'Challa the GM when T'Challa is really the GM, the coach and the quarterback.
[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3719109]If Doom was using spells in their fights, I would buy this argument. Instead he just straight up mollywhops T'challa.
Also, straight cancel out, of course not. But, what I meant (and poorly explained) was that, Martial Art's is T'challa's edge. IF he can get in close, IF he can turn it into a brawl somehow, that is his avenue to win.
It should be the straight opposite for Doom, he should be throwing out crimson bands and shit like that from the start.[/QUOTE]
The reason DOom beats T'CHalla in their first and third fight is simply because T'CHalla isn't wearing armor (which in all fairness he usually doesn't). Doom shoots him, and his regular outfit doesn't offer enough protection. Again, it's like Iron Man fighting Shang Chi. I'd given Iron Man the edge 9 times out of 10 (no offense to Chang). In Dooms second fight with T'Challa he armors up, and they fight pretty evenly until the very very end where T'Challa underestimates Doom, and Doom is able to get the edge.
T'Challa simply wasn't prepared for a fight wth Doom in most of their encounters. His standard gear isn't on the level Dooms standard gear is. When T'Challa armors up and faces Doom (who didn't bust out any magic), it was about as even a fight as you're going to get. The guy who made the first mistake (in that instance T'Challa) was the one that lost. But otherwise it was more even.
Doom War and Secret Wars, Doom just straight up had more power on those occasions. But those are situations outside status quo.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3719109]If Doom was using spells in their fights, I would buy this argument. Instead he just straight up mollywhops T'challa.
Also, straight cancel out, of course not. But, what I meant (and poorly explained) was that, Martial Art's is T'challa's edge. IF he can get in close, IF he can turn it into a brawl somehow, that is his avenue to win.
It should be the straight opposite for Doom, he should be throwing out crimson bands and shit like that from the start.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]Two things BP fans were thinking when they saw Doom give BP the serious beatdown:
1st Thought -[I]Damn! I ain't never seen BP get his ass kicked like this before![/I]
2nd Thought - [I]I can't wait to see BP kick Doom's ass for what he did.[/I]
Never happened and never gonna happen.[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3719113][COLOR="#000080"]All we've had for the past 2 years is poor execution. If T'Challa doesn't need a power up, why do other characters around him get one?
DC continues to give BP feats and it's got nothing to do with being A-list. Thor wasn't A-list and he kicked ass. Daredevil isn't A-list and he gets to kick ass. Green Lantern isn't A-List and he gets feats.
If Coates simply studied T'Challa and what he could do and his skill set and tech, then he could have upgraded the villains BP faced during his two arcs and made them more credible threats. Every villain has been lackluster and there has been no true sense of drama.
Coates just made T'Challa the GM when T'Challa is really the GM, the coach and the quarterback.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
In most instances I'd say other characters don't need power ups.
Spider-Man got multiple in Disassembled and the Other... and those power ups were largely ignored and eventually retconned away. If heroes win 99% of the time at their present power level, they usually don't need power ups. If anything it's the villains that usualy need the power ups, because they're the ones constantly getting their butts kicked.
A few power ups stick (like Blade for example). But generally speaking most heroes are fine the way they are. Which is why a lot of the time power ups and ignored.
If you REALLY want to read about a more powerful character, read Thor. Read Silver Surfer. Those are the guys who are all about straight up power. T'CHalla is a different sort of character. He gets things done in a different way. It's about skill and intelligence. It's about more than just him punching people in the face. He's still one of the most dangerous beings on the planet, but he does it without class 100 strength.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3719119][B]The reason DOom beats T'CHalla in their first and third fight is simply because T'CHalla isn't wearing armor (which in all fairness he usually doesn't).[/B] Doom shoots him, and his regular outfit doesn't offer enough protection. Again, it's like Iron Man fighting Shang Chi. I'd given Iron Man the edge 9 times out of 10 (no offense to Chang). In Dooms second fight with T'Challa he armors up, and they fight pretty evenly until the very very end where T'Challa underestimates Doom, and Doom is able to get the edge.
T'Challa simply wasn't prepared for a fight wth Doom in most of their encounters. His standard gear isn't on the level Dooms standard gear is. When T'Challa armors up and faces Doom (who didn't bust out any magic), it was about as even a fight as you're going to get. The guy who made the first mistake (in that instance T'Challa) was the one that lost. But otherwise it was more even.
Doom War and Secret Wars, Doom just straight up had more power on those occasions. But those are situations outside status quo.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]T'Challa has a Galactus plan but no plan in case Doom, Earth's greatest villain attacks? I'll suspend belief on that one for a moment.
T'Challa doesn't have the foresight to prepare for an armored Doom at the end of Doom War?
Poor writing and execution by another writer who is a "fan" of BP.
[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;3719121][COLOR="#000080"]Two things BP fans were thinking when they saw Doom give BP the serious beatdown:
1st Thought -[I]Damn! I ain't never seen BP get his ass kicked like this before![/I]
2nd Thought - [I]I can't wait to see BP kick Doom's ass for what he did.[/I]
Never happened and never gonna happen.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
I won't say it's NEVER gonna happen. But yeah... T'Challa didn't give enough of a recipt for the beat down he got. Maeberry dropped the ball in that regard (though for the record I do think his writing overall was actually very good). He gave T'CHalla a lot of upgrades that were never really used in the end. That was disappointing.
