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[QUOTE=Spear of Bashenga;1015406]Reasons for lettign Tchalla be a (anti)villain.
1. Marvel actually lets villains win.
2. The best villains have sympatheric orgins.
3. The best villains are friends/former friends of heroes.
4. He can still aid heros (like Doom/Magneto).
5. Villains are proactive.
6. Villains nations are apparently on lock 90% of the time.
7. Everyone loves a face/heel/face turn.[/QUOTE]
I don't think he even has to be an anti-villain. Just let him be the character he used to be under Priest and Hudlin. Heck, even Aaron gave us See Wakanda and Die. T'Challa is losing a lot of respect right now because he's not living up to the character he's supposed to be. The proper characterization of T'Challa would have had him kill Namor and the Cabal and wouldn't have cared what anyone thought about him or his actions.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1015157]this sentence is the perfect example of 'tchalla's "wins"
He has a chance to kill Namor and the whole Cabal... hesitates to pull the trigger due to comic book/symbolic reasons, allowing the whole cabal, INCLUDING NAMOR to survive. So t'challa basically F'd up the Illuminati's master plan to get rid of the Cabal once and for all.
Is that a win? Is that what we are taking as 'wins' for T'challa now? Symbolic gestures and tactical failures?
Remember the days he ripped out Mephistos heart? Broke Red Skull's jaw? Beat Fisk mentally and physically? Liss was the last person to right T'challa how he should be written and he did it in a freaking street level story.
And, once again because I imagine the same "Hickman's horror story" thing will get repeated here, but I don't have a problem with the deconstruction and the fact everyone is failing now... but after all this destruction for T'challa (him and Namor have had it the worst easily), do you truly, really believe the T'challa is going to be the one to fix everything? Do you REALLY think Marvel is going to let him do that? Because that is what is supposed to happen when heroes are torn apart...they rise from the ashes better than ever and fix ****. All T'challa gets are symbolic victories at best though.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1016369]I don't think he even has to be an anti-villain. Just let him be the character he used to be under Priest and Hudlin. Heck, even Aaron gave us See Wakanda and Die. T'Challa is losing a lot of respect right now because he's not living up to the character he's supposed to be. The proper characterization of T'Challa would have had him kill Namor and the Cabal and wouldn't have cared what anyone thought about him or his actions.[/QUOTE]
This x1000000
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1016369]I don't think he even has to be an anti-villain. Just let him be the character he used to be under Priest and Hudlin. Heck, even Aaron gave us See Wakanda and Die. T'Challa is losing a lot of respect right now because he's not living up to the character he's supposed to be. The proper characterization of T'Challa would have had him kill Namor and the Cabal and wouldn't have cared what anyone thought about him or his actions.[/QUOTE]
I'm just done with playing with the justifying his actions as a hero nonsense. He's a King first and formost, he may have heroic tendancies but he's not a superhero, so I'd rather him not even bother acting a hero than deal with BS.
Preist Panther would have laid Steve out for his BS.
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[QUOTE=Spear of Bashenga;1016435]I'm just done with playing with the justifying his actions as a hero nonsense. He's a King first and formost, he may have heroic tendancies but [B]he's not a superhero[/B], so I'd rather him not even bother acting a hero than deal with BS.
Preist Panther would have laid Steve out for his BS.[/QUOTE]
I've been saying this for years. T'Challa is not a superhero but writers keep trying to write him as one. I agree with you 100%. He has heroic tendencies but that that's as far as it goes. People keep trying to confine T'Challa to what they would do or how a hero should act. What is right and wrong to a king? There's only what needs to be done.
And Steve would have never even broached that with Priest's Panther. He would already know the answer.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1016369]I don't think he even has to be an anti-villain. Just let him be the character he used to be under Priest and Hudlin. Heck, even Aaron gave us See Wakanda and Die. T'Challa is losing a lot of respect right now because he's not living up to the character he's supposed to be. The proper characterization of T'Challa would have had him kill Namor and the Cabal and wouldn't have cared what anyone thought about him or his actions.[/QUOTE]
Agreed with this, however doesn't his and Blackbolts actions mean that they would be normally tried for Regicide given that they tried to murder a king, which is what Namor is? (Also if this was anyone other then Namor and T'challa I wonder if this would even be a debate here?)
The whole situation reeks of bad choices all around:
-T'challa's mistake was first in letting the Avengers bring Transonic to Wakanda. (Did Shuri even know about any of that in the first place?)
-Namor's mistake was listening to (was it Scott or Emma) the X-men in sending a tidal wave (something he hasn't done in decades.) to Wakanda in the first place.
-Shuri's mistake was outright attacking Atlantis, rather then going after only Namor which would have probably been more then enough (also because he was working with the X-men shouldn't she have gone after them as well?)
-Shuri's deciding to blow up Atlantis (Which had been blown up previously by Namor to stop Tony from screwing with it in Civil War) rather then take a peace treaty.
-T'challa's mistake was not bring Shuri into this in the first place and probably getting her to understand what the heck is going on with the whole inversions.
-Everyone pretty much screwed up when they left Black Swan near freaking Thanos.
-Again everyone screwed up with the whole GS planet debacle.
-Namor screwed up letting his own issue over rule sense with Proxima
-T'challa going McBeth on Namor was another mistake leading to nothing, rather then waiting till after they dealt with the crisis. Hell, aren't there still living Wakandins? Shouldn't he be more focused on finding out if anyone survived. (At least Wakanda got some focus, neither Latvia nor Atlantis has gotten any.)
The list goes on and on and on. Really by now I want a freaking reset on T'challa. He needs it! Seriously, I always saw him as a heroic character, someone who, like Namor, tried to do the best for his people. Hell the two should really be giving the middle finger to the Avengers, the UN, and the X-men for all the crap they pulled these two into.
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[QUOTE=Spear of Bashenga;1016435]I'm just done with playing with the justifying his actions as a hero nonsense. He's a King first and formost, he may have heroic tendancies but he's not a superhero, so I'd rather him not even bother acting a hero than deal with BS.
[B]Preist Panther would have laid Steve out for his BS.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes he would have.
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The Anti villain thing is probably next to Priest the right approach to the character maybe. Like Brandon said. We don't have to have an explanation when he does things in this vein. Or at least no one this side of Priest can write him as a hero and do it smartly. Maybe they need to take this approach? There probably will be virtually no change in him whatsoever. Except for him saying frak this which he is totally justified to do.
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[QUOTE=Darkspellmaster;1016467]Agreed with this, however doesn't his and Blackbolts actions mean that they would be normally tried for Regicide given that they tried to murder a king, which is what Namor is? (Also if this was anyone other then Namor and T'challa I wonder if this would even be a debate here?)
The whole situation reeks of bad choices all around:
-T'challa's mistake was first in letting the Avengers bring Transonic to Wakanda. (Did Shuri even know about any of that in the first place?)
-Namor's mistake was listening to (was it Scott or Emma) the X-men in sending a tidal wave (something he hasn't done in decades.) to Wakanda in the first place.
-Shuri's mistake was outright attacking Atlantis, rather then going after only Namor which would have probably been more then enough (also because he was working with the X-men shouldn't she have gone after them as well?)
-Shuri's deciding to blow up Atlantis (Which had been blown up previously by Namor to stop Tony from screwing with it in Civil War) rather then take a peace treaty.
-T'challa's mistake was not bring Shuri into this in the first place and probably getting her to understand what the heck is going on with the whole inversions.
-Everyone pretty much screwed up when they left Black Swan near freaking Thanos.
-Again everyone screwed up with the whole GS planet debacle.
-Namor screwed up letting his own issue over rule sense with Proxima
-T'challa going McBeth on Namor was another mistake leading to nothing, rather then waiting till after they dealt with the crisis. Hell, aren't there still living Wakandins? Shouldn't he be more focused on finding out if anyone survived. (At least Wakanda got some focus, neither Latvia nor Atlantis has gotten any.)
The list goes on and on and on. Really by now I want a freaking reset on T'challa. He needs it! Seriously, I always saw him as a heroic character, someone who, like Namor, tried to do the best for his people. Hell the two should really be giving the middle finger to the Avengers, the UN, and the X-men for all the crap they pulled these two into.[/QUOTE]
I don't know if you can do much to try a king for executing his duties. BUt I agree on the reset thing to an extent.
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[QUOTE=Spear of Bashenga;1016435]I'm just done with playing with the justifying his actions as a hero nonsense. He's a King first and formost, he may have heroic tendancies but he's not a superhero, so I'd rather him not even bother acting a hero than deal with BS.
Preist Panther would have laid Steve out for his BS.[/QUOTE]
I'd argue the interaction with his ancestors demonstrated that he wasn't more a king than super hero. I think that was in fact the point of that exchange, in contrast to Namor who was willing to cast aside his heroic ideals to do what he believed was best for his people.
For what it's worth I'm glad T'challa didn't do it. I wouldn't fault him if he did but I'm glad he didn't.
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[QUOTE=Darkspellmaster;1016467]Hell the two should really be giving the middle finger to the Avengers, the UN, and the X-men for all the crap they pulled these two into.[/QUOTE]
I've been saying this for awhile. Both have lost the most due to hanging out with the Avengers and X-Men. Everyone but them gained since AvX. Mutants are resurgent and the Avengers have more authority than ever. Atlantis and Wakanda are in ruins and both characters are shells of what they are supposed to be.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1016510][B]I'd argue the interaction with his ancestors demonstrated that he wasn't more a king than super hero[/B]. I think that was in fact the point of that exchange, in contrast to Namor who was willing to cast aside his heroic ideals to do what he believed was best for his people.
For what it's worth I'm glad T'challa didn't do it. I wouldn't fault him if he did but I'm glad he didn't.[/QUOTE]
For the purposes of Hickman's story sure, but most (at least on this forum) BP fans aren't looking at this as the definitive BP.
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[QUOTE=Spear of Bashenga;1016524]For the purposes of Hickman's story sure, but most (at least on this forum) BP fans aren't looking at this as the definitive BP.[/QUOTE]
Nope. Not at all.
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[QUOTE=Moose100;1016479]Yes he would have.[/QUOTE]
Disagree. I think even Priest written BP would realize that having everyone start fighting again (and that's what would happen if Steve were attacked) would be counter productive. He out aside common sense with Namor, but he's nowhere near that angry with Steve. This isn't the time to start fighting amongst thrmselves. This is the time to work together. They can save the rest of the drama for another day.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1016052]I suppose on the plus side that does give them a certain mystique than some of their peers. Bast feels more like a god than Thor.[/QUOTE]
Yep plus Bast keeps it consistent she doesn't give a frak about other Gods Problems. Everytime they have a crisis and need help she tells them to go "F*** Themselves"
Anyway the whole A V X debacle screwed the Illumanti from the start without that everything works well or a heck of a lot better.