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[QUOTE=XPac;3809619]If you have stories taking place in africa, you're almost certainly going to show some black characters commuting criminal behavior. Behavior that can be considered stereotypical. But in the super hero genre, crime happens. Thieves, murderers, and on rare occasion even rapists. I think what turns those negative issues into positive ones is when you see people rise up to end such behavior.
The thing to take away isn't that there are black kidnappers and rapistd, but rather that there were black women who rose up to stop them.[/QUOTE]
You might have been able to make that argument if Shuri hadn't opened her mouth and said it was ok to be raped as long as the golden city doesn't fall. Considering Tchalla didn't correct her, that shows a lack of concern for individuals on both their parts. Which is a change from the second arcs characterizion when Tchalla is willing to meet with individuals addressing their concerns. Of course those where men so I guess they mattered.
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[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;3809667]I don't care where else it happens.
The point folks are making is they are tired of pandering writers like Coates-all he did was feed the worshipers of black men oppress black women and Africa is nothing but huts, children soldiers, Shaka Zulu, abused women and Sally Struthers.
Why is Wakanda the only place shown to be a mess in this book yet it's fine in books like Ms marvel.[/QUOTE]
Because the Black Panther book is where you see Wakanda's problems. That's where they are dealt with.
That's what happens when you get a Wakanda centric Black Panther book. It means your seeing Wakanda deal with problem after problem after problem.
That said, at this point I really don't think Wakanda is much of a mess. They were in the first season, but by the second season they seemed status quo. Obviously bad stuff is still happening, but that's comics for you.
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[QUOTE=Cville;3809682]You might have been able to make that argument if Shuri hadn't opened her mouth and said it was ok to be raped as long as the golden city doesn't fall. Considering Tchalla didn't correct her, that shows a lack of concern for individuals on both their parts. Which is a change from the second arcs characterizion when Tchalla is willing to meet with individuals addressing their concerns. Of course those where men so I guess they mattered.[/QUOTE]
The gave those same individuals a free pass and the Jabari lands to boot. So I don't think they have a whole lot to complain about as far as how T'Challa and Shuri treated them.
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[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;3809667]I don't care where else it happens.
The point folks are making is they are tired of pandering writers like Coates-all he did was feed the worshipers of black men oppress black women and Africa is nothing but huts, children soldiers, Shaka Zulu, abused women and Sally Struthers.
Why is Wakanda the only place shown to be a mess in this book yet it's fine in books like Ms marvel.[/QUOTE]
I think we all know the answer to this question.
Dude won't hear you though.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;3809368]Apparently the next Black Panther Epic Collection has been announced: [B]Black Panther Epic Collection Vol. 2 - Revenge of the Black Panther[/B].
Collects BLACK PANTHER (1977) 1-15, MARVEL PREMIERE (1972) 51-53, BLACK PANTHER (1988) 1-4, MATERIAL FROM MARVEL TEAM-UP (1972) 100.
I'm a bit surprised it doesn't have Iron Man Annual #5 given that it's a Peter Gillis story.
Meanwhile, here's a story I read from Epic Collection Vol. 1.
Jungle Action Vol. 2 #20 - [i]They Told Me a Myth I Wanted to Believe[/i]
[img]https://www.use.com/images/s_2/3d6c9050906f2d6eb452_2.jpg[/img]
This cover looks very different. It's very modern Americana, which is not what you expect to see in a Jungle Action comic. On the fist page, we see T'Challa (still in his Black Panther costume) in a grocery store. Understandably, he is attracting a lot of stares, but they're not sure why (is he a celebrity, is he a freak show, is he a threat?). Billy Graham draws a wonderful page full of people's confused and shocked stares. It's actually pretty nice to see. One distracted old lady knocks over a bunch of stuff and, when T'Challa turns to help her, a couple of guys (I think Dragon's Circle) hold Monica at knifepoint to delivery a message from "the Reverend."
T'Challa leaps to her defense and does a pretty good job of kicking their asses. Unfortunately, the police show up and they start beating on T'Challa. The old lady joins in while he's down. The sheriff arrives and breaks up the fight, once again showing sympathy to T'Challa and Monica but preferring they didn't ruin his day. In a brief interlude, we find out more about Monica's sister's death. She supposedly went into the real estate office she was suspecting of corruption and committed suicide.
In the final act, T'Challa jumps into the middle of a Klan meeting and starts beating them up. It opens with a wonderful two-page spread. As the story continues, the top and bottom rows of panels follow Monica's story while the middle has T'Challa. It's very good from a formalist perspective. I really don't think Billy Graham gets enough credit as an artist. Unfortunately, T'Challa isn't doing to well against the sheer numbers he's fighting. But the scenes themselves are wonderfully juxtaposed with Kevin Trublood talking about American values and whether it is even worth writing a story about the Klan that will just get his family attacked and change nothing. But he feels he has to because he believes in America. In the panel in between, T'Challa burns on a cross.
The message at the end is powerful and powerfully delivered. It's a bit contrived that T'Challa ended up overwhelmed by a bunch of Klansmen (not just because they're not elite fighters but because the whole thing seems to come out of nowhere and no attempt is made to sell what is happening), but the story itself works really well. So far, I'm continuing to enjoy the story.[/QUOTE]
I remember reading this back in the day.
T'Challa has come a long way indeed.
Thanks for posting this solid writeup. :cool:
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;9870][IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/25tvwc6.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/mmx45g.jpg[/IMG]
[video=youtube_share;J_oO2ojmiWo]http://youtu.be/J_oO2ojmiWo[/video][/QUOTE]
Had to jump in time to remind myself how dope the BP solo used to be.
When Shuri and T'Challa were on point in every way.
God, I really miss those days.
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While it was a cool action story, the meat of the plot was confusing. Why would people take out loans to buy land that most like due to WK advanced tech would never be used for resources. It's not like they were vibranium veins. I found it to be a plot looking for a reason to exist. Lol
I could see it if people were buying it to build homes or a village on and didn't care about the resources underneath, but Fisk did.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3809663]The funny thing is that one doesn't even have to be of African descent to understand why what Coates has done introducing stereotypical African violence and the subjugation of African women in a Wakanda that was never influenced by Western Imperialism, is thoroughly offensive.
One just has to be monumentally tone deaf or just plain ignorant as to how negative stereotypes reinforce bigoted views.
You can rest assured that Coates would never have dared pulled a similar stunt misrepresenting any other ethnicity in this manner.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, as someone not of African descent, I can attest to that.
And frankly, from a story telling perspective, it's terribly lazy. Western tropes have been done to death, lets see stuff that pertains to Africa/rest of the damn world.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;30891][B][SIZE=5]It's all about respect baby. Part 1[/SIZE][/B]
Wakanda, legendary African Nation famous within the 616 MU for being virtually unconquered for since inception. (regardless of internal politics and coups)
We were first introduced to this mysterious nation all the way back in 1966 alongside the introduction of T'Challa, the Black Panther in Fantastic Four #52 when the eponymous Prince of the Wakanda's invites the FF to his land and then proceeds to test himself against the entire group in a battle of strength and wits that must have come as a bit of a suprise to readers who actually got to read this book when it originally came out.
Over a number of years, T'Challa and Wakanda were portrayed as being an exotic land of many distinct possibilities but through all of these portrayals the fact that Wakanda and it's most famous son were an anomaly in a fictional universe were people of African descent were usually depicted stereotypically and in many ways, it can be argued that a dogged refusal to mave away from these stereotypes has always been one of the biggest obstacles that have stood in the way of bothe T'Challa as a character and Wakanda as a concept.
Both concepts were introduced back in the 1960's by the OG Architects of the Marvel Universe, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby but unlike many of Stan and Jack's creations from that time period, T'Challa still struggles for recognition amongst some of the same readers who claim that the lasting popularity of the Caucasian characters created back in the 50's and 60's owes more to the fact that they were created back then but the fact that T'Challa was also a 60's baby delivered by Lee and Kirby more or less exposes such ridiculous "explanations" false in the extreme.
Roy Thomas was an influential Marvel writer who played a part in diminshing T'Challa as a character when he wrote the Avengers book back in the 1970's and whether this was purely innocent or down to other unknown factors, the fact remains that he did probably as much damage to T'Challa's character as Fred Hembeck did to Jericho Drumm aka Doctor Voodoo.
This damage was gradually reversed by Christopher J. Priest when he reluctantly took on writing a character who for all intents and purposes, was seen as being something as a lame duck perrenial loser of a character within the 616 MU.
Priest single handedly re-introduced T'Challa back into the 616 as a confident, multilayered, enigmatic King on a mission who brooked no nonsense from friend and foe alike and that once again, set the character on a collision course with readers who had grown used to seeing Roy Thomas's take on the character and accepting same as being the definitive canonical definer for T'Challa as opposed to the more robust version of his character launched by Lee and Kirby originally launched in 1966.
Since then, Dwayne McDuffie, (RIP) Reginald Hudlin and David Liss all played their respective roles in chronicling the adventures of T'Challa and his supporting characters in a number of BP runs which met with varying degrees of success inbetween major derailments facilitated by writers like Jonathan Maberry via the Doomwar event and a multitude of writers from the X-office who have never at any given time, had anything positive to write featuring T'Challa pre, during and post the marriage between T'Challa and Ororo which was consequently deep-sixed during AvX.
AvX was the next event that came in the wake of Doomwar wherein T'Challa and Wakanda are continually put through the ringer to such a degree that both character and concept get severely trashed and destroyed whilst being dragged through the mud under the guise of benign creativity.
Unfortunately, the stories themselves by the very nature of the dialogue spouted by some of the characters involved and their in-story motivations given for their on-panel actions would seem to indicate that there's nothing "benign" about the manner in which T'Challa and Wakanda have been treated in the 616 MU in relation to the manner in which other similarly themed characters such as Black Bolt and Namor and their fictional kingdoms Attilan and Atlantis are concerned. (For arguments sake, I'll include Thor and Asgard in the mix even though the Son of Odin isn't a monarch at present.)
Black Bolt destroyed Attilan during Jonathan Hickman's Infinity event as part of an overarching plot device to usher in what I've decided to christen as being the Age of Inhumanity which in turn, necessitated the launch of an Inhumans book wherein the whole dispersal of the original Inhumans and the explosion of "New" Inhumans as a result of the Terrigen Mist, can be explored in greater depth with Queen Medusa's character being given a chance to grow and be developed further exponentially.
Thor was nearly battered to death by Norman Osborn and his combined army of Super Villains and HAMMER during the Siege event wherein Asgard was virtually destroyed and consequently brought down by the Sentry.
But get this, no one celebrated the fall of Asgard or engaged in online-high five sessions when the Sentry brought the Asgardians home crashing down to Earth, and I definitely don't remember seeing any posts making excuses for Osborn's actions during Siege by way of very clear insanity, possession, mind control or any of the other convenient "explanations" that get bandied about by readers when their favourite characters are in the frame as was the case when Tony Stark and Reed Richards did their thing pre-Planet/World War Hulk and then further on during marvel's Civil War.
It was undiluted EVIL pure and simple on the part of Osborn, end of story.
In the wake of AvX where a Phoenix powered Namor and his Atlantean army launched an unprovoked war on Wakanda under the pretext of "rescuing" a mutant who through her own stupidity found herself in Wakanda. This attack, virtually destroyed Wakanda causing massive real estate damage alongside loss of life.
AvX also served as the foundation upon which the writers concerned, proceeded to dismantle the marriage between T'Challa and Ororo pre-Namor's attack on Wakanda so not only was Wakanda destroyed, the nations former ruler, T'Challa had his marriage derailed by the self same X-office who had consistently isolated the character and his Nation for the full six year duration of the marriage between these two fictional characters.
So basically, AvX was a double whammy against the BP mythos that served to continue the theme of emasculating T'Challa's character and the smashing of Wakanda that was started by Jonathan Maberry's Doomwar.
It's important to note that Maberry really pulled a hatchet job on the marriage of T'Challa and Ororo by having T'Challa choosing Wakandan Vibranium over the life of his wife Ororo which in turn, fed into the tendency for some readers to blame the fictional character for what they saw as the "marginilization" of Ororo during the period that Reginald Hudlin was writing the Black Panther book.
The fact that Maberry actually marginalized Ororo during Doomwar doesn't get that much milage when blame is being apportioned as to which writers have done Ororo dirty the most over the years, says a lot about some of the underlying double standards and possible prejudice that served as the primary foundation for a lot of the hatred that Hudlin faced when he was writing Ororo's character within the BP solo he was scripting at that time.
Namor's Atlantis was reduced to rubble by Shuri Queen of Wakanda, in direct retaliation for the Atlantean Monarch's unprovoked attack on Wakanda that came without warning in much the same way as Japan's attack on the USA's Pearl Harbour during World War 2.
And here's where a very interesting and revealing disconnect began to rear its ugly head on this and other similarly themed forums.
I remember when Namor was depicted decimating Wakanda with a Tsunami with his Atlantean Army and their accompanying sea monsters riding shotgun alongside their King.
[IMG]http://i62.tinypic.com/35lhtdy.jpg[/IMG]
There was mass jubilation amongst a number of readers not particularly enamoured of T'Challa ,posting on various forums.
The comments were relentless in their crassness and the laughs and joyful merriment went on for an age without any of these readers actually seeing what Namor did as being wrong.
Some went as far as to claim that Namor was under the influence of a cosmic force and thus not to blame for what he did to Wakanda, but when questions were raised as to why the Atlantean army that accompanied Namor who of course, were not under the Phoenix Force's influence were blameless, the excuse given, was that the Atlantean Army where honor bound to heed the call of their King. (regardless of how crazy his commands or similar to Osborn's were at the time.)
Basically, "I was just following orders" was the justifying refrain that was being sung from the proverbial rooftops by some of these readers.
That was the holding position for some up until this happened...
[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/9qwlxg.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/14l81s5.jpg[/IMG]
And all of a sudden, the laughter stopped.
It wasn't fun anymore when Wakanda struck back, and the derisive smirk was wiped off of the face of Namor and the anti-T'Challa/Wakanda readers who praised Namor's actions pre-Atlantis's humbling by Wakanda's armed forces.
[I][B]
The shocked silence was as deep as the airless space between planets and then came the howls of indignation.[/B][/I][/QUOTE]
Bloody Hell! Completely forgot about these writeup.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;30893][B][SIZE=5]It's all about respect baby. Part 2
[/SIZE][/B]
All of a sudden, Shuri was labled a savage "war monger" who had authorised a "sneak" attack on Atlantis that made her a "monster" as opposed to being a ruling Monarch who authorized a legitimate retaliatory attack against an enemy who had already declared unprovoked war against a nation that they'd never had any problems with pre-AvX.
Every excuse under the sun was given (by some) in defence of Namor the most prominent amongst said "excuses" being the one stating that Namor's actions against Wakanda could not be blamed on him by way of supposed Phoenix Force "possession."
The fact that Namor never apologized for what he did whilst supposedly being under the influence of a cosmic force, was further explained away by Namor apologists by way of his being a "proud" Monarch absolving him of doing the responsible thing by suing for peace as this would supposedly make him lose face.
Queen Shuri on the otherhand, was pilloried as being a blood thirsty war monger more interested in waging war at all cost and I found myself wondering what planet most of these detractors were living on to such a degree that I eventually had to pose the question as to whether the USA's retaliation against Japan for the Pearl Harbour affair could not be likened to the fictional Wakanda's retaliation against Atlantis?
To date, that question has been met with deafening silence.
In all my years of reading speculative fiction, I've never encountered a scenario were the perpetually repetitive destruction of a heroic protagonist and his/her nations is lauded by a cadre of readers with such vehemence and vitriol that in some cases, one begins to wonder how these readers actually feel about the real life equivalents (at least on physical appearance/ethnicity level) of these fictional characters?
But I digress.
The destruction of Asgard was not celebrated by any fans as far as I know, but the decimation of Wakanda first in Doomwar and more recently during AvX were roundly celebrated by detractors of T'Challa and Shuri as characters and their home, Wakanda as a concept which can only be characterized as being entirely disrespectful on every level imaginable.
This disrespect is ably enabled by a Marvel Editorial who allowed some of their writers to diminish the marriage between T'Challa and Ororo consistently up until AvX when the culmination of this process was fully realized.
[IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/avasw.jpg[/IMG]
The very deliberatness of this process was clearly illustrated by the trolling of T'Challa that has continued post AvX by most of the writers who were instrumental in destroying the marriage between T'Challa and Ororo as evidenced by (most recently) the cover of Deadpool #27 which I posted previously in this thread.
[IMG]http://i61.tinypic.com/20j0gol.jpg[/IMG]
Jonathan Hickman for the most part, has restored Wakanda's pre-eminence as an indomitable warrior nation who rarely attack unless provoked themselves and he's more or less followed through on cementing Shuri as being a Wakandan Monarch who makes good on her promises and defends her nation and its people from the frontlines without fear or trepidation and for some, this is as threatening as what Hickman did with T'Challa first within the pages of the Fantastic Four before following through on the former Monarchs electrifying rebirth as chronicled within New Avengers #1.
[IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/2rvzm6r.jpg[/IMG]
The predictable accusations of "Mary Sue-ism" began to spring up left and right and to some degree, have continued to date with the primary difference being that Jonathan Hickman hasn't been beleaguered by the same levels of false accusations of boosting T'Challa's character at the expense of others that Reginald Hudlin, Dwayne McDuffie and Christopher J. Priest were inundated with when they wrote T'Challa.
At the end of the day, it all boils down to a lack of respect on the part of a Marvel Editorial who for whatever reason, have chosen to hinder T'Challa and the Black Panther mythos from maintaining the proper level of traction that they should have followed on from the foundations originally set by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.
It's all about respect and to me, it's pretty much obvious that most of the professionals who've consistently misrepresented the BP mythos and the readers who enjoy said mythos, clearly have no understanding of the milestone that Stan Lee & Kirby achieved when they created this wonderful character and his fictional homelan, Wakanda.
End of.[/QUOTE]
Part two. 10 chars.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;30925][B][SIZE=5]It's all about respect baby. Part 3[/SIZE][/B]
[B]Reginald Hudlin
Jonathan Maberry
David Liss
Jonathan Hickman
[/B]
Four writers with wildly divergent styles with the shared common denominator between them being the fact they've all had a hand in chronicling the journey of a character who divides opinion amongst Black Panther enthusiasts and those not particularly enthused by the attendant BP mythos.
Without further ado I introduce.....
[B][SIZE=4]
Shuri: Queen of Wakanda[/SIZE][/B]
[IMG]http://i62.tinypic.com/2vlr7k2.jpg[/IMG]
Shuri was first introduced to the BP mythos by Reginald Hudlin as T'Challa's retconned junior sister in the Who Is The Black Panther story arc that was originally meant to be an out of 616 MU continuity six issue mini-series.
Fiesty, opinionated and capricious in temperament, Shuri was nevertheless portrayed as being intensely competitive in nature with a constant need to prove herself against her older brother at every turn but her love for T'Challa and dedication to Wakanda was never in doubt as Hudlin had fun developing her as a character his daughter could identify with and look up to especially within a fictional universe where there have always been precious to few female heroic protagonists of worth let alone sper powered Women of Color.
The six issue mini was eventually upgraded to a full time solo book now firmly rooted in 616 MU continuity as Reginald Hudlin set himself to the task of chronicling the further adventures of T'Challa even as the Marvel Civil War event was gathering steam.
In those early days, Shuri was just a supporting character who was still being developed especially as Hudlin was quite focused on laying the groundwork for T'Challa and Ororo's impending wedding.
But as the narrative of the book progressed post wedding, Shuri began to become a lot more prominent following T'Challa's disastrous encounter with Dr Doom....
[IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/357o9ht.jpg[/IMG]
that led to T'Challa knocking on deaths door which in turn created turmoil within Wakanda due to the fact that with the nations Monarch being incapacitated, there was no one sitting on the throne.
The ante was further upped when Morlun appeared on the scene to absorb T'Challa's essence and it's at this juncture that the gradual elevation of Shuri's character began as she donned the mantle of the Black Panther to fight against Morlun and the threat he posed to her stricken brother and Wakanda.
Hudlin wrote Shuri as being an insecure character forced to face up to her fears and character flaws as she played cat and mouse with Morlun across the length and breadth of a Wakanda still reeling from the near death of their King.
Shuri fought to buy Ororo time to travel to the realms of the dead to wrestle T'Challa's soul back from the arms of death and it was only through the joint efforts of both women that Morlun's plan was thwarted and T'Challa rescued from the death realm to start the arduous journey back to full health following Doom's murder attempt on his life.
Reginald Hudlin had Ororo playing a pivotal role on encouraging Shuri to step up to plate and take her place on the throne of Wakanda to provide leadership for the nation while her brother was still being nursed back to health.
Hudlin had both women relating to each other quite well with Ororo playing the role of older sister, friend and confidant to Shuri and taking her Sister-In-Laws advice, Shuri took her place on Wakanda's throne just as Jonathan Maberry took over writing duties on the Black Panther book following Reginald Hudlin's departure.
[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/2z5k4d3.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I stayed mad prolific back in the day.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;30961][B][SIZE=5]It's all about respect baby. Part 4[/SIZE][/B]
Jonathan Maberry started strong with the Power arc but BP enthusiasts for the most part weren't particularly comfortable with Shuri as eponymous Black Panther and where somewhat hesitant to embrace her in the role despite the fact that Maberry (at that point) was writing a really tightly streamlined book featuring Shuri stepping up to the plate to handle Wakandan interests on the international scene whilst trying to establish who sanctioned the attempt on her brothers life.
[IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/2je3hxt.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/ff4y7s.jpg[/IMG]
Maberry continued to write a brilliant arc leading right up to the [B]Doomwar[/B] event and that's when everything began to go to hell for the BP mythos.
[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/jv6vsy.jpg[/IMG]
Shuri was more or less the only character (apart from Doom) who came off looking dominant in Doomwar as T'Challa and Ororo were just made to look utterly ridiculous under Maberry's pen in what can only be described as one of the worst depictions of any characters in the history of Marvel Comics.
But in the aftermath of Doomwar, Jonathan Maberry's [B]Klaws of the Panther[/B] mini-series featuring Shuri, was used as a platform to inexplicably trash the sisterly relationship that Hudlin had established between Shuri and Ororo by manufacturing a friction between the two characters that never existed.
Maberry further compounded this by portraying Shuri as a character with anger management issues and a generally irresponsibly rash attitude which was definitely at odds with her character as established by Reginal Hudlin when he originally introduced her to the BP mythos.
Consequently, by the time most BP enthusiasts had experienced the back-to-back nightmare presented by Doomwar and Klaws, it was safe to say that Maberry's claims to the effect that the Black Panther was one of his favourite characters was no longer being taken seriously.
Jonathan Maberry is a solid writer who in fact started out really strong with the [B]Power[/B] arc in the (then) ongoing Black Panther monthly solo and it goes without saying, that Maberry is a respected writer with a strong pedigree in the Action/Horror genre.
Unfortunately, he didn't finish as strongly as he could have done with his own unique contributions to the Black Panther mythos.[/QUOTE]
Chronicling like it was going out of fashion.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;30993][B][SIZE=5]It's all about respect baby. Part 5 [/SIZE][/B]
In the aftermath of Doomwar many Black Panther enthusiasts greeted the news of T'Challa's new solo book with weary resignation and suspicion.
This was due to the weirdly improbable premise that had him relocate to Daredevil's stomping grounds to stand in for a Man Without Fear who'd just come out of the crazy Shadowland event.
Many of us questioned why T'Challa would once again, abandon his people after Doom's attack on Wakanda and some of us were puzzled as to why a character who was supposed to be such a consumate strategist would see cloistering himself away from his wife as being a wise decision.
Needless to say, David Liss had his work cut out for him as he chronicled T'Challa's adventures on the streets and rooftops of Hell's Kitchen and we also got to meet some interesting supporting characters such as [B]Sofija[/B] along the way which was quite interesting.
[IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/2qaivpc.jpg[/IMG]
The urban setting came across as being something of an ill fitting premise for T'Challa and some fans of the character (myself included) were quite voiciferous in or unhappiness about the state off affairs.
[IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/2elfkt3.jpg[/IMG]
To David Liss's credit, he actively engaged with fans within the BP Appreciation threads as well as on the letters page printed within the BP book to such a degree that by the time the book was re-titled as Black Panther:Most Dangerous man Alive, most sceptics had begun to react favourably to Liss's more than able handling of T'Challa's character despite the crazy premise of a super genius intellectual slumming it in Hell's Kitchen.
David Liss also did much to rehabilitate Shuri's character in the aftermath of Maberry's [B]Klaw of the Panther[/B] miniseries.
[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/a15xrb.jpg[/IMG]
Under Mr Liss's more than able pen, Shuri was depicted as a reigning Monarch grown confident in her ability to lead both on the battlefield as well as within the boardroom which of course, came as a welcome departure from the "Paris Hilton of Africa" with "Anger management issues" persona that Maberry had chosen to mischaracterize her as being
Shuri worked in tandem with her brother and his allies to outsmart Wilson Fisk and eventually thwart his plans to take over Wakanda during the Kingpin of Wakanda storyline that saw out David Liss's eighteen issue contribution to the BP mythos befoe Marvel Editorial decided to inexplcably cancel the book that Liss had gotten readers to appreciate through sheer force of excellence.
T'Challa and Shuri were both portrayed as being supremely confident protagonists by the venerable writer without either character being diminished, short changed or chumped out and for that, David Liss remains one of the most respected scribes to have ever chronicled T'Challa's adventures within the 616 MU.[/QUOTE]
I need to get a blog set up at some point.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;31048][SIZE=5][B]It's all about respect baby. Part 6[/B][/SIZE]
Following on from David Liss's excellent work with Shuri's character, Jonathan Hickman continued this trend within the pages of New Avengers where Shuri is portrayed as having fully grown into her role as Queen of Wakanda.
Fearlessly leading from the front in Wakanda's defense, Shuri has proven to be a hands on Monarch unafraid to fight alongside her troops in much the same was as the case when T'Challa was on the throne.
[IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/10shxsn.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i39.tinypic.com/14bt7if.jpg[/IMG]
And she has also proven to be quite decisive when dealing with enemies of the Wakandan State in a manner that reminds them why only a consumate fool would initiate unprovoked attack against Wakanda in the false assumption that there wouldn't be costly repercussions for such an affront.
[IMG]http://i59.tinypic.com/169lwnd.jpg[/IMG]
Hickman has portrayed Shuri as being a strong, focused and decisive Monarch unafraid to ask hard questions or make solid decisons affecting her nation and its people regardless of personal feelings or familial connections and in this, Hickman has done much to make her a truly standalone character in her own right.
A character who like her brother, should really be appearing in a lot more books than New Avengers and in the wake of the numerous solo books that Marvel have launched recently featuring female protagonists, it's a bit ridiculous that Marvel are passing up a perfectly good opportunity to launch a solo book featuring either herself, T'Challa or both of them wherein their respective characters and Wakanda can be explored in more detail juxtaposed against the backdrop of international machinations within the 616 MU.
Respect for all of Marvel's characters is essential for the brand to grow exponentially snatching up all buying demographics especially those that have been ignored for way to long.
[B][I]
Respect, that's what it's all about baby.[/I][/B][/QUOTE]
Last but not least.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;3809810]Yeah, as someone not of African descent, I can attest to that.
And frankly, from a story telling perspective, it's terribly lazy. Western tropes have been done to death, lets see stuff that pertains to Africa/rest of the damn world.[/QUOTE]
Brother, you ain't never lied.
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[I]Mr. M.
Those are some truly great write ups! I salute you.[/I]
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Majestic be like... :cool:
[video=youtube;nliD0Umzaww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nliD0Umzaww[/video]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3809619]If you have stories taking place in africa, you're almost certainly going to show some black characters commuting criminal behavior. Behavior that can be considered stereotypical. But in the super hero genre, crime happens. Thieves, murderers, and on rare occasion even rapists. I think what turns those negative issues into positive ones is when you see people rise up to end such behavior.
The thing to take away isn't that there are black kidnappers and rapistd, but rather that there were black women who rose up to stop them.[/QUOTE]
[B]uh huh, so tell me xpac where did I say anything about black Characters committing criminal behavior being offensive? I said do you honestly think that MCU black panther would be the smash hit it is right bownif it portrayed Tchalla and Wakanda how Coates did.
I never said it's offensive that crime happens in BPs book, as much as you wish I did so that your response even made the tiniest bit of sense. I said it's offensive that Coates out treehouse rape camps, contrived misogyny, forced gender inequality, and a utter chaos with Tchalla giving audience to known despots in how to handle the situation.. all those there are about as stereotypical Africa as you can get. I'm surprised gang bangers and crack didn't show up with how offensive coates was aiming [/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3809978][B]uh huh, so tell me xpac where did I say anything about black Characters committing criminal behavior being offensive? I said do you honestly think that MCU black panther would be the smash hit it is right bownif it portrayed Tchalla and Wakanda how Coates did.
I never said it's offensive that crime happens in BPs book, as much as you wish I did so that your response even made the tiniest bit of sense. I said it's offensive that Coates out treehouse rape camps, contrived misogyny, forced gender inequality, and a utter chaos with Tchalla giving audience to known despots in how to handle the situation.. all those there are about as stereotypical Africa as you can get. I'm surprised gang bangers and crack didn't show up with how offensive coates was aiming [/B][/QUOTE]
The bangers got covered in the Zenzi origin story.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3809978][B]uh huh, so tell me xpac where did I say anything about black Characters committing criminal behavior being offensive? I said do you honestly think that MCU black panther would be the smash hit it is right bownif it portrayed Tchalla and Wakanda how Coates did.
I never said it's offensive that crime happens in BPs book, as much as you wish I did so that your response even made the tiniest bit of sense. I said it's offensive that Coates out treehouse rape camps, contrived misogyny, forced gender inequality, and a utter chaos with Tchalla giving audience to known despots in how to handle the situation.. all those there are about as stereotypical Africa as you can get. I'm surprised gang bangers and crack didn't show up with how offensive coates was aiming [/B][/QUOTE]
We did get drugs in McGregors run.
ANd human trafficking IS a crime... just as murder and kidnapping and drugs. All of which can be considered negative stereotypes... but again, that sort of thing can happen in stories. Kingpin in a lot of ways is a walking stereotype too from a certain perspective.
As far as the movie potraying T'Challa and Wakanda the way Coates did... it would make sense in the first movie. I DO however think it would in the sequel. And if it hypothetically was a take on Coates story, then yeah I would say expect it to be a smash hit. I don't expect it to be as big a hit as the first movie... but I don't expect the sequal to be as big as the first regardless of what the movie is about.
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Wakanda... Is just like Compton! :cool:
Elder #1: "The East Side Water Tribe Warlords will not challenge today!"
Elder #2: "Hooptie Hoo rat-a-tat-tat... The Mining Tribe Guerrilla Mafia Gangsters will not challenge today!"
Elder #3: "Is Brooklyn in Da House... The 61st Street Straight Like Dat Real Riders Tribe will not challenge today!"
Elder #4: "The Nickel Bag Naughty Dawg Tribe will not challenge today but we got that good heart shaped herb weed on the low you feel me!"
King T'challa: "FRAK this I quit this is embarrassing for Wakanda!"
[video=youtube;LaCyV8eiRm8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaCyV8eiRm8[/video]
Killmonger: "What set you claiming?"
King T'challa: "I already quit you can have this FRAKKING country... I'm out!"
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3807921][video=youtube;-ZmGpTuysKI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZmGpTuysKI[/video]
I lol'd
whoo boy, thank Bast BP came out first.
FTR, I'll be at Aquaman opening night and he is probably my favorite DC character. It is just funny[/QUOTE]
My enthusiasm for Aquaman just dropped.
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Lol the comments
[video=youtube;WtFNser2UQI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtFNser2UQI[/video]
Man I wish BP had a really strong 3rd act.
Also please let Coogler loose on the sequel and not worry about tidying things up before a damn Avengers film. The story in BP is just as great imo, but the soundstage/cgi reliant style (unless its Infinity War levels good) restricts Coogler's visual potential.
I fear we might not ever really see it unless he actually makes that Mansa Musa film and we'll all step back and say ohhhhhh.
Also I think Killmonger was just as great of a character as the Joker, but Heath just gave a much better performance (Jordan was still great, but Heath was on another level). Suffered from shortening the 3rd act as well.
Imagine a young Denzel in that role with a bit more screen time.
[img]http://replygif.net/i/566.gif[/img]
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[QUOTE=Mantis Dad;3809899][I]Mr. M.
Those are some truly great write ups! I salute you.[/I][/QUOTE]
Thank you Mantis Dad.
I'm glad you liked them. :)
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[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;3809940]Majestic be like... :cool:
[video=youtube;nliD0Umzaww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nliD0Umzaww[/video][/QUOTE]
You know how I do. :cool:
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[QUOTE=XPac;3810043]We did get drugs in McGregors run.
ANd human trafficking IS a crime... just as murder and kidnapping and drugs. All of which can be considered negative stereotypes... but again, that sort of thing can happen in stories. Kingpin in a lot of ways is a walking stereotype too from a certain perspective.
As far as the movie potraying T'Challa and Wakanda the way Coates did... it would make sense in the first movie. I DO however think it would in the sequel. And if it hypothetically was a take on Coates story, then yeah I would say expect it to be a smash hit. I don't expect it to be as big a hit as the first movie... but I don't expect the sequal to be as big as the first regardless of what the movie is about.[/QUOTE]
Thankfully, your "expectations" will have ZERO impact on how well the inevitable BP sequel does as regards surpassing the success of the first movie.
Captain America:Winter Soldier, totally surpassed the first Cap movie by totally upping the ante in the areas of presentation, action, intrigue and overall character building work.
The same applies to Thor Ragnarock and the Avengers movies.
There's no reason why the same upward momentum will not be the case with a Black Panther sequel movie helmet by Coogler and featuring a solid cast of dedicated thespians.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;3809368]Apparently the next Black Panther Epic Collection has been announced: [B]Black Panther Epic Collection Vol. 2 - Revenge of the Black Panther[/B].
Collects BLACK PANTHER (1977) 1-15, MARVEL PREMIERE (1972) 51-53, BLACK PANTHER (1988) 1-4, MATERIAL FROM MARVEL TEAM-UP (1972) 100.
I'm a bit surprised it doesn't have Iron Man Annual #5 given that it's a Peter Gillis story.
[/QUOTE]
Where are you seeing this at Mike?
I'mma buy it just for Gillis Story alone. And yeah, I wish that annual was in there.
I'mma catch up on this last couple stories this morning
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[QUOTE=Klaue's Mixtape;3810078]Lol the comments
[video=youtube;WtFNser2UQI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtFNser2UQI[/video]
Man I wish BP had a really strong 3rd act.
Also please let Coogler loose on the sequel and not worry about tidying things up before a damn Avengers film. The story in BP is just as great imo, but the soundstage/cgi reliant style (unless its Infinity War levels good) restricts Coogler's visual potential.
I fear we might not ever really see it unless he actually makes that Mansa Musa film and we'll all step back and say ohhhhhh.
Also I think Killmonger was just as great of a character as the Joker, but Heath just gave a much better performance (Jordan was still great, but Heath was on another level). Suffered from shortening the 3rd act as well.
Imagine a young Denzel in that role with a bit more screen time.
[img]http://replygif.net/i/566.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
You keep finding new videos and basically reposting the same thing over and over again lol
A couple BP fans keep saying "I hope BP 2 is TDK levels!" and then miss the fact if BP2 was a movie the was essentialy about a villain, y'all would complain that T'challa didn't get the "spotlight" in his own movie considering people were complaining about it in BP1.
Batman was borderline useless when it came to the Joker until he decide to go Patriot Act on everyone.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3807921][video=youtube;-ZmGpTuysKI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZmGpTuysKI[/video]
I lol'd
whoo boy, thank Bast BP came out first.
FTR, I'll be at Aquaman opening night and he is probably my favorite DC character. It is just funny[/QUOTE]
Coogler needs to step his game up and show more Wakanda in BP2. The Aquaman trailer shows more of Atlantis than we saw in the BP movie and with more details too.
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[QUOTE=Amenra11;3810420]Coogler needs to step his game up and show more Wakanda in BP2. The Aquaman trailer shows more of Atlantis than we saw in the BP movie and with more details too.[/QUOTE]
I will say that what we saw in the Aquaman trailer is impressive. The visual are at least as good as the BP's movies, and with only three quarters of the budget. That said, we're only judging by the trailer, which of course has all the best stuff. We'll see if the whole movie can look that impressive. If it ends up being even half as good as Black Panther, that'll be an accomplishment. The BP movie is the bar to meet, as far as I'm concerned.
I REALLY want to like the Aquaman movie and I fully intend to support it. But really good DC trailers have ended up misleading my before. Suicide Squad looked incredible in the trailer. But fingers crossed. It looks good, and it's a fun character.
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[QUOTE=Amenra11;3810420]Coogler needs to step his game up and show more Wakanda in BP2. The Aquaman trailer shows more of Atlantis than we saw in the BP movie and with more details too.[/QUOTE]
THe only shot in the trailers of atlantis were the "welcome to atlantis" overview, a gladiator fight, and then the "armies running at each other" thing which probably isn't even in "Atlantis" proper. Oceans =/= Atlantis.
Why do so many BP "fans" feel the need to take shots at the movie whenever they get the chance? To the point of just making stuff up?
If anything, one of my worries with the Aquaman movie, as an aquaman fan, is that we won't get enough atlantis. There is an obvious "surface journey" thing going on (id imagine looking for the macguffin) and the Trench is involved, flashbacks, sub fight, ect. The hook of Aquaman is fighting in water, I really don't want them on the surface much.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3810452]I will say that what we saw in the Aquaman trailer is impressive. The visual are at least as good as the BP's movies, and with only three quarters of the budget. That said, we're only judging by the trailer, which of course has all the best stuff. We'll see if the whole movie can look that impressive. If it ends up being even half as good as Black Panther, that'll be an accomplishment. The BP movie is the bar to meet, as far as I'm concerned.
I REALLY want to like the Aquaman movie and I fully intend to support it. But really good DC trailers have ended up misleading my before. [B]Suicide Squad looked incredible in the trailer[/B]. But fingers crossed. It looks good, and it's a fun character.[/QUOTE]
Really? I never thought it looked very good. I'm excited to watch Aquaman, but I think the (necessary) reliance on CGI is going to hamper it a bit.
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[QUOTE=Things Fall Apart;3810523]Really? I never thought it looked very good. I'm excited to watch Aquaman, but I think the over reliance on CGI is going to hamper it a bit.[/QUOTE]
I personally thought "atlantis" looked exactly how we DIDN'T want Wakanda to look. Basically, big shiny star trek city.
People gloss over how much care Coogler and his team took in making Wakanda feel "real" with African influence. It would have been very easy to simply go, "shiny futuristic" instead.
And yeah... CGI critics (im not really one of them) ) are likely going to have a field day with the huge battles with people riding various fish species. If 3 rhinos triggered people......
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It would be awesome if we ever get Enemy of the State III in the books.
It would be really great if we can get a live action version of Enemy of the State with the various MCU rulers, movers, and shakers.
Great writing with great actors in a political thriller would be very different, and welcomed.
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In case you didn't noticed already there's a Cover for Issue #3 {for October} that shown some of the FF replacements members and yes, T'Challa is one of them within the FF Aprreciation Thread.......
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[QUOTE=PaxHouse;3810736]In case you didn't noticed already there's a Cover for Issue #3 {for October} that shown some of the FF replacements members and yes, T'Challa is one of them within the FF Aprreciation Thread.......[/QUOTE]
[img]https://scontent.fiev4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37746580_10213730882080949_8155399943071203328_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=89ba7dab4bd84aa0807a0e89cd2ff5ff&oe=5BE1A70E[/img]
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3810765][img]https://scontent.fiev4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37746580_10213730882080949_8155399943071203328_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=89ba7dab4bd84aa0807a0e89cd2ff5ff&oe=5BE1A70E[/img][/QUOTE]
yes I saw this looking forward to this.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3810372]You keep finding new videos and basically reposting the same thing over and over again lol
A couple BP fans keep saying "I hope BP 2 is TDK levels!" and then miss the fact if BP2 was a movie the was essentialy about a villain, y'all would complain that T'challa didn't get the "spotlight" in his own movie considering people were complaining about it in BP1.
Batman was borderline useless when it came to the Joker until he decide to go Patriot Act on everyone.[/QUOTE]
I've also said T'Challa needed more screen time. I also think Boseman >> Bale in TDK.
The movie needed a longer run time. The 3rd act was rushed. I think when people say TDK levels they are talking about technical levels as well. No wonky CGI, a more visceral and atmospheric film. Coogler showed with Creed that he can take a franchise a totally reinvent it while keeping the spirit of whats come before. I think he does that to a point in BP. Nothing wrong with people wanting it be more of a Ryan Coogler film and feel less Marvel. The key again would be that Coogler can direct as good as Nolan. That's what he needs to do/prove. However, he can certainly tell as good of a story imo. Nolan improved from Begins to TDK. Maybe Coogler can do the same.
[QUOTE=Amenra11;3810420]Coogler needs to step his game up and show more Wakanda in BP2. The Aquaman trailer shows more of Atlantis than we saw in the BP movie and with more details too.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say that, but yea we do need more Wakanda in the sequel. Can't have that restricted feeling. Need more space and room to make the The Golden City feel lived in.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3810527]I personally thought "atlantis" looked exactly how we DIDN'T want Wakanda to look. Basically, big [B]shiny star trek city. [/B]
People gloss over how much care Coogler and his team took in making Wakanda feel[B] "real" [/B]with African influence. It would have been very easy to simply go, "shiny futuristic" instead.
And yeah... CGI critics (im not really one of them) ) are likely going to have a field day with the huge battles with people riding various fish species. If 3 rhinos triggered people......[/QUOTE]
I actually wanted a futuristic Wakanda, complete with flying cars ect . IMO when the producers talked about not making Wakanda Asgard on earth; making it feel [B]"real"[/B] that was just code speak for we're not spending our budget on this.
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The comments, lol.
[video=youtube;sT28BtBfENg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT28BtBfENg[/video]
I really liked Logan, but I didn't think it was better than BP. It is more visceral and has better action though. Still I prefer BP.
Man there is a lot of hate out there though.