-
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2291172]I'm sorry Xpac, this is garbage. This was introduced by Coates. We are talking about that. Wakanda is a Afro Futurist, super science city Utopia. That is what it is...not this sterotypical nonsense Coates is writing. It's problematic and offensive, because when Africa is show in pop culture... It's ALMOST always some garbage like this. Why is it so hard for you to grasp this. Wakanda is fictional. They are not anchored to rules or real countries or realism or reality. You don't take the best example of Afro-futurism and do this crap.
No. If you can detect all sorts and manner or things, have quintjets, Wakandan Star Trek ships all over the place, you can find rape Treehouses.[/QUOTE]
Because Wakanda is fictional, it is anchored in whatever rules and whatever degree of realism or reality marvel chooses it to have. I don't dispute that. It's fiction, and the writers get to make this stuff up. But my point being the writers have decided that Wakanda CAN have drug problems. They can have kidnapping. They can have human trafficing and rape. Again, just like pretty much every other society in human history.
You referred to it as super science city Utopia... but it's not Utopia. Because Utopia doesn't exist and likely never will. People are imperfect, and as long as that's the case society will always be imperfect regardless of how tall your sky scraper are. Even if Utopia was possible marvel sure as heck wouldn't want to write that, because Utopia frankly is boring.
Again, the bottom line is that Wakandan society has the same problems everyone else does. You can choose to accept that or not, but at this point it's in the book as canon. If you're looking for some sort of Utopian society you're not going to get that here.
-
[QUOTE=Rumble;2290840]lol @ everyone arguing with xpac the last 5 pages.
But that routine exception aside, i thought it was kinda cool in a bitter sweet way the solidarity virtually everyone showed after that last preview came out, even the most patient of apologists seemed fed up lol, culminating with majestic and ezyo coming together like
Even if just temporary, we were agitated and at our wits end, together :)
I got a lil teary eyed[/QUOTE]
[img]http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11111/111114734/3018857-black+swan+from+new+avengers+vol+3+5.jpg[/img]
basically that lol
-
[QUOTE=XPac;2291181]Because Wakanda is fictional, it is anchored in whatever rules and whatever degree of realism or reality marvel chooses it to have. I don't dispute that. It's fiction, and the writers get to make this stuff up. But my point being the writers have decided that Wakanda CAN have drug problems. They can have kidnapping. They can have human trafficing and rape. Again, just like pretty much every other society in human history.
You referred to it as super science city Utopia... but it's not Utopia. Because Utopia doesn't exist and likely never will. People are imperfect, and as long as that's the case society will always be imperfect regardless of how tall your sky scraper are. Even if Utopia was possible marvel sure as heck wouldn't want to write that, because Utopia frankly is boring.
Again, the bottom line is that Wakandan society has the same problems everyone else does. You can choose to accept that or not, but at this point it's in the book as canon. If you're looking for some sort of Utopian society you're not going to get that here.[/QUOTE]
It's clear you don't get it. It's already been established why this is wrong. A lot of things don't exist, but appear in comics! Really dude? Lmao
-
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2286104]Re: Bast... she is more the kind of god that sits back and watches and tgen tells you it was all a test after its over. Thanos was sitting in her vacation home and she just hid in the attic and pretended she wasnt home. Thor she is not
Re: villain... clearly The People and Stane. Unlike the MA, yhey havent hadvan ounce of sympathy thrown there way. They killed civies at the mound and tgen went full villain mode by inviting an evil rich white dude and suicide bombing people. TNC hasnt been subtle there at all outside tge poem issue of doom[/QUOTE]
The reason I asked the question is that in storytelling, the antagonist usually put obstacles in the way of the protagonist to keep them from getting what that want. So what does T'Calla want in the story? A unified Wakanda and The People are rebelling. Or are the The People and the Doras the protagonist that want equal representation and T'Challa and the royal family deep placing obstacles in their way to keep the monarchy.
And why are the people rebelling? Because of crime at the fringes of the country? The way Coates spins his tell with the people protesting, you would think we would see large scale abuses by those in power. Wakanda has always thrived and I am not seeing such abuses or silencing of the public that would inspire the people to rebel.
-
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2291185]It's clear you don't get it. It's already been established why this is wrong. A lot of things don't exist, but appear in comics! Really dude? Lmao[/QUOTE]
Sure a lot of things that don't exist appear in comics. But a Utopian Wakanda isn't one of them.
Again, Wakandans are human. And they have the same problems and short comings that everyone else have. If that's what you're looking for, you're not going to get that from the Black Panther franchise.
-
[QUOTE=taozen;2291187]The reason I asked the question is that in storytelling, the antagonist usually put obstacles in the way of the protagonist to keep them from getting what that want. So what does T'Calla want in the story? A unified Wakanda and The People are rebelling. Or are the The People and the Doras the protagonist that want equal representation and T'Challa and the royal family deep placing obstacles in their way to keep the monarchy.
And why are the people rebelling? Because of crime at the fringes of the country? The way Coates spins his tell with the people protesting, you would think we would see large scale abuses by those in power. Wakanda has always thrived and I am not seeing such abuses or silencing of the public that would inspire the people to rebel.[/QUOTE]
Historically that's how monarchies usually function. When times are bad, you get revolts and coups. In a country like say the US, if you're unhappy about government you just vote for new leadership at the next election. But in a true monarchy you don't have those sort of options. If you're unhappy with government you're only option is to overthrow it.
Wakanda experienced a string of major set backs which resulted in a decline in the country, and SOME of the people are taking it out on the current rulership. I don't think at THIS point the rebellion is that wide spread, but the efforts of he MA and the People do appear to be suceeding at turning making T'Challa look bad in the eyes of the people.
Ultimately I think a lot of the criticism against the Royal Family is manifactured. Yes there's some legit reasons to gripe against T'Challa given some of the questionable decisions he's made in recent years, and the unfortunate end result from those decisions. But the criticism from the MA against him for being an enslaver of women is obvious BS. And the People's stuff against him is clearly staged. It's the MA and People villifying him with BS, and the Wakadans slowly starting to believe some of it.
-
[QUOTE=XPac;2291191]Sure a lot of things that don't exist appear in comics. But a Utopian Wakanda isn't one of them.
Again, Wakandans are human. And they have the same problems and short comings that everyone else have. If that's what you're looking for, you're not going to get that from the Black Panther franchise.[/QUOTE]
There is no need to spin. Again a lots of things don't exist in
Comics, after all it's fiction. That's silly and the premise of your arguement.
The logic you are using is flawed, and saying this doesn't change that. It's just what I said, certain people have a hard time imaging certain things. Coates is the first and only writer to write this crap, which like I said very steroptycial. Like I said they don't have to be anchored to any of these issues. This was a choice Coates made. Sure they have always had problems, just not these (sans Mcgregor similar crack in Wakanda bs).
-
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2291091]He seems like a goal oriented person.
If his goal is 60 issues, then he will get it done as long as something doesn't pop up IMO.
But, you never know what goes on behind the scenes (contract disputes, [B]possible offer to do a more high profile book[/B], hell, maybe he wants to spin off in the independent route?)[/QUOTE]
That's kind of what I was thinking. That if he get's an opportunity to do Spidey or X-Men or something that he'd jump at the chance. Or if DC offered him some character that he really liked he might go for it.
-
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2291202]There is no need to spin. Again a lots of things don't exist in
Comics, after all it's fiction. That's silly and the premise of your arguement.
The logic you are using is flawed, and saying this doesn't change that. It's just what I said, certain people have a hard time imaging certain things. Coates is the first and only writer to write this crap, which like I said very steroptycial. Like I said they don't have to be anchored to any of these issues. This was a choice Coates made. Sure they have always had problems, just not these (sans Mcgregor similar crack in Wakanda bs).[/QUOTE]
I'm not the one spinning here. My logic is pretty simple... rape and human trafficing exist in Wakanda because marvel says so. It's right there in the book. If you don't like it then you don't like it, but it doesn't change that fact that it does.
You keep calling it fiction and saying it doesn't have to be anchored but that works both ways. It doesn't have to be anchored into your concept of Utopia either. It can be if a writer chooses it to be... but it's not. I thought McGregor's run frankly would have put that notion to rest decades go. You can call McGregors run BS is you want, but it's canon just like Coates. And you're of course free to dislike it, but the bottom line is that this is what Wakanda is because that's what Marvel says it is.
-
[QUOTE=XPac;2291212]I'm not the one spinning here. My logic is pretty simple... rape and human trafficing exist in marvel because marvel says so. It's right there in the book. If you don't like it then you don't like it, but it doesn't change that fact that it does.
You keep calling it fiction and saying it doesn't have to be anchored but that works both ways. It doesn't have to be anchored into your concept of Utopia either. It can be if a writer chooses it to be... but it's not. I thought McGregor's run frankly would have put that notion to rest decades go. You can call McGregors run BS is you want, but it's canon just like Coates. And you're of course free to dislike it, but the bottom line is that this is what Wakanda is because that's what Marvel says it is.[/QUOTE]
Marvel or Coates can say what ever they want Xpac, doesn't mean it's right. That's what we have been arguing about since this started. So yes you are spinning and yes the logic you are using is flawed. If you think that it's impossible to show a African county or black people without Always writing or showing this crap just say that. I'm saying that you don't do this to the one example of Afro Futurism in pop culture.
lets not pretend that Marvel doesn't have its issues. It's on record that it does
-
[QUOTE=taozen;2291187]The reason I asked the question is that in storytelling, the antagonist usually put obstacles in the way of the protagonist to keep them from getting what that want. So what does T'Calla want in the story? A unified Wakanda and The People are rebelling. Or are the The People and the Doras the protagonist that want equal representation and T'Challa and the royal family deep placing obstacles in their way to keep the monarchy.
And why are the people rebelling? Because of crime at the fringes of the country? The way Coates spins his tell with the people protesting, you would think we would see large scale abuses by those in power. Wakanda has always thrived and I am not seeing such abuses or silencing of the public that would inspire the people to rebel.[/QUOTE]
T'Challa wants peace and order.
The People are anti monarcists, Tetu and Zenzi just want T'Challa off the throne. They are headquartered in Niganda.
They (the Nigandans) have hated the Wakandans forever. Of course they'd side with anybody who wanted to take them down.
Tetu and Zenzi's followers are disaffected Wakandans mad about the current state of things. The peeps who
got the worst end of it during the war and want to take it out on T'challa.
Note that we aren't yet seeing rebellion in the capitol (outside of mental coersion). The captal isn't the mess the outer tribes are.
The Midnight Angels and the rebel Doras want equal representation. The Dora's followers want protection from crime.
Changmire probably wants a democracy of some sort, but he wants it out of pricinple. He has no overt beef with T'challa.
Notice that HE has no followers.
The leader's motives are not the same as the followers. You can have corrupt leaders like Tetu and Zenzi or
earnest ones like the M.A.
But both are engaging in manipulation of thier followers. How does a open rebellion/civil war make the country any safer?
Tetu and Zenzi don't care as long as they get to run things. The Midnight Angels and rebel Doras don't seem to have thought any of
that through yet. They just don't get that they aren't necessarily making things better in the long term.
Coates is taking an interestingly dim view of revolutionaries here.
The most ethical revolutionary is the one dude that nobody is listening to.
-
[QUOTE=ed2962;2291205]That's kind of what I was thinking. That if he get's an opportunity to do Spidey or X-Men or something that he'd jump at the chance. Or if DC offered him some character that he really liked he might go for it.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure a lot of people would love it if that happened :p.
I've never seen him talk about DC at all so I'm not sure if there's any character there who they could offer to get him interested (maybe John Stewart).
I'm wondering if he would really be better on those titles then Black Panther, since he's noted as an actual fan of those properties with an understanding of them that's better that what he's shown to understand about Panther. Though his issues with pacing and action would probably still be there.
-
I honestly think there is a better chance he takes on ANOTHER title moreso than drop BP and move on.
If sales continue even close to what they are now (the sales are holding crazy strong) then Marvel won't want to lose those BP sales (Coates leaves and we are probbably back to 30K a month tops) just to prop up a franchise they don't seem 100% invested in (X-men).
And slott will leave Spidey when he dies lol.
But what they offered him Sam Wilson: Captain America? That is way more up his ally than (should be) Afro Futurist Black Panther.
But thn you have the worry of him getting typecast as a "black writer only"
-
[QUOTE=taozen;2291187]The reason I asked the question is that in storytelling, the antagonist usually put obstacles in the way of the protagonist to keep them from getting what that want. So what does T'Calla want in the story? A unified Wakanda and The People are rebelling. Or are the The People and the Doras the protagonist that want equal representation and T'Challa and the royal family deep placing obstacles in their way to keep the monarchy.[/QUOTE]
The People are absolutely NOT protagonist in any way shape or form. That ship sailed when they used suicide bombers on innocent Wakandans in #4. Tetu and Zenzi ultimately want T'challa has: power and reign over Wakanda. They want to be the new status quo.
The Doras are a bit of a wild card, but I wouldn't qualify them at protagonists either. At best, they mean well, but they (the MAs in particular) are rather misguided. It's becoming more and more clear that the MAs are warriors first, everything else second. They are great on the battlefield, but beyond that, they'll have a very tough time achieving what they wish to achieve.
T'Challa wants an end to the turmoil in his terms, resulting a maintenance of the current status quo, more or less (T'Challa trying to bring Shuri back, despite the difficulty of the task, could be considered an example of him trying to back things to how they were). The question now is, will he be able to achieve that goal in light of everything that happened (including events pre-Secret Wars and stuff in the Coates run).
[QUOTE]And why are the people rebelling? Because of crime at the fringes of the country? The way Coates spins his tell with the people protesting, you would think we would see large scale abuses by those in power. Wakanda has always thrived and I am not seeing such abuses or silencing of the public that would inspire the people to rebel.[/QUOTE]
The major rebellions have happened in the outskirts really. The capital city--T'Challa's turf for sure--has been fine, save the suicide bombing orchestrate by Tetu and Stane.
-
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2291266]I honestly think there is a better chance he takes on ANOTHER title moreso than drop BP and move on.
If sales continue even close to what they are now (the sales are holding crazy strong) then Marvel won't want to lose those BP sales (Coates leaves and we are probbably back to 30K a month tops) just to prop up a franchise they don't seem 100% invested in (X-men).
And slott will leave Spidey when he dies lol.
[B]But what they offered him Sam Wilson: Captain America? That is way more up his ally than (should be) Afro Futurist Black Panther.
[/B]
But thn you have the worry of him getting typecast as a "black writer only"[/QUOTE]
I really doubt he would take it. BP has a much bigger profile than FalCap and has much more room for growth as a franchise.
We have no idea how long Sam will be Cap. What if he returns to his Falcon mantle?
Not to mention that BP has a movie on the way, which will raise the profile of the BP franchise even higher, and thus help increase the profile of the BP book. FalCap doesn't have that.
-
[QUOTE=taozen;2291187]The reason I asked the question is that in storytelling, the antagonist usually put obstacles in the way of the protagonist to keep them from getting what that want. So what does T'Calla want in the story? A unified Wakanda and The People are rebelling. Or are the The People and the Doras the protagonist that want equal representation and T'Challa and the royal family deep placing obstacles in their way to keep the monarchy.
And why are the people rebelling? Because of crime at the fringes of the country? The way Coates spins his tell with the people protesting, you would think we would see large scale abuses by those in power. Wakanda has always thrived and I am not seeing such abuses or silencing of the public that would inspire the people to rebel.[/QUOTE]
In no shape, way, or form are The People protagonists.
Their very first appearance had Zenzi using her powers to cause the miners to act nuts, which got some killed.
Then it 100% went out the window when they invited Stane in, then suicide bombed the rally, and then misconstrued the meeting between T'challa and the despots to turn the public against him.
The MA are a wild card right now. They have a valid sympathy angle (stopping rape camps), plus they have kinda sympathy angle of being woman and lesbian as well (whether people want to admit it or not). BUT, on the other hand, they went Judge Dredd on the tribal dude, then went into a tribe and WIPED THEM OUT. A tribe in the past that bowed to a woman (QDJ). So.... yeah. Throw in the religious aspect (white gorilla worshipers) and that comes off even worse. And remember... Ayo had no real plan other than "break out my lover."
T'challa is 100% the "hero" of the story so far. He has only been trying to stop Terrorists all 5 issues and revive his sister. And his mom's got injured badly. Through 5 issues, he hasn't even looked towards the MA (which is going to change in #6, but it is still a secondary concern for him).
-
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2291272]I really doubt he would take it. BP has a much bigger profile than FalCap and has much more room for growth as a franchise.
We have no idea how long Sam will be Cap. What if he returns to his Falcon mantle?
Not to mention that BP has a movie on the way, which will raise the profile of the BP franchise even higher, and thus help increase the profile of the BP book. FalCap doesn't have that.[/QUOTE]
Oh i meant in Conjunction with BP, not drop one for the other.
-
[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2290565]I am still waiting for the answer to one simple question...
If the Jambazi rape treehouses operated so secretly that Wakandan intelligence did not know about them...
How did Aneka and Ayo find out?[/QUOTE]
Coates needed that to happen so that he could get "The Message™" across.
-
[QUOTE=Vic Vega;2291230]T'Challa wants peace and order.
The People are anti monarcists, Tetu and Zenzi just want T'Challa off the throne. They are headquartered in Niganda.
They (the Nigandans) have hated the Wakandans forever. Of course they'd side with anybody who wanted to take them down.
Tetu and Zenzi's followers are disaffected Wakandans mad about the current state of things. The peeps who
got the worst end of it during the war and want to take it out on T'challa.
Note that we aren't yet seeing rebellion in the capitol (outside of mental coersion). The captal isn't the mess the outer tribes are.
The Midnight Angels and the rebel Doras want equal representation. The Dora's followers want protection from crime.
Changmire probably wants a democracy of some sort, but he wants it out of pricinple. He has no overt beef with T'challa.
Notice that HE has no followers.
The leader's motives are not the same as the followers. You can have corrupt leaders like Tetu and Zenzi or
earnest ones like the M.A.
[B]But both are engaging in manipulation of thier followers. How does a open rebellion/civil war make the country any safer? [/B]
Tetu and Zenzi don't care as long as they get to run things. The Midnight Angels and rebel Doras don't seem to have thought any of
that through yet. They just don't get that they aren't necessarily making things better in the long term.
Coates is taking an interestingly dim view of revolutionaries here.
The most ethical revolutionary is the one dude that nobody is listening to.[/QUOTE]
Good breakdown of each party and their motivations.
The bold especially is very important. The longer this run goes, the more evident it appears that the opposing parties are spewing rhetoric benefiting their cause. Some believe that rhetoric more than others (the MAs) but overall they are doing what they have to do to get wins.
Tetu is a liar and a hypocrite who ultimately wants power and is willing to murder innocents to do so.
Zenzi's definition of being a "liberator" involves getting people to engages in acts of chaos, resulting in the eventual downgrading of their welfare. But it benefits her, so she doesn't (for now) seem to care much about that.
Outside of stopping the rape camp in #2, what long-term positive actions have the Midnight Angels committed? Aneka could've turned in the lecherous chieftain so that he would answer to Wakandan law and get what is owed to him. Instead, she kills him on the spot.
Then they take over an entire village. Do they have the resources and wherewithal to maintain the village in the long term? To protect that village?
The MAs have basically resorted to large scale vigilantism to get what they want, but they are more or less winging it. They don't appear to have an end game.
And now, they claim to have been slaves of T'Challa? We all know that BS. The MAs know it too. After all, they def would've stayed in the Dora order if Ramonda overturned the sentence.
The only members of the opposition that have been honest with themselves are Changamire and Zeke Stane. Can't say the same for the others.
-
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2291282]Oh i meant in Conjunction with BP, not drop one for the other.[/QUOTE]
Ahh, I see. I'm not sure he'll do it even in that scenario. Part of the reason he got Roxane Gay to do BP: WoW was because he didn't want to stretch himself too thin. He still has his commitments to The Atlantic to fulfill, in addition to the BP book.
-
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;2291224]Marvel or Coates can say what ever they want Xpac, doesn't mean it's right. That's what we have been arguing about since this started. So yes you are spinning and yes the logic you are using is flawed. If you think that it's impossible to show a African county or black people without Always writing or showing this crap just say that. I'm saying that you don't do this to the one example of Afro Futurism in pop culture.
lets not pretend that Marvel doesn't have its issues. It's on record that it does[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying it's impossible to not show an African country this way. I'm merely saying if that's what Marvel chooses to do, it's believable. In fiction at least they can present it however they choose. It can be as realistic or as unrealistic as they want. It's marvels property amd they obviously get to make those decisions.
-
[QUOTE=Vic Vega;2291230]T'Challa wants peace and order.
The People are anti monarcists, Tetu and Zenzi just want T'Challa off the throne. They are headquartered in Niganda.
They (the Nigandans) have hated the Wakandans forever. Of course they'd side with anybody who wanted to take them down.
Tetu and Zenzi's followers are disaffected Wakandans mad about the current state of things. The peeps who
got the worst end of it during the war and want to take it out on T'challa.
Note that we aren't yet seeing rebellion in the capitol (outside of mental coersion). The captal isn't the mess the outer tribes are.
The Midnight Angels and the rebel Doras want equal representation. The Dora's followers want protection from crime.
Changmire probably wants a democracy of some sort, but he wants it out of pricinple. He has no overt beef with T'challa.
Notice that HE has no followers.
The leader's motives are not the same as the followers. You can have corrupt leaders like Tetu and Zenzi or
earnest ones like the M.A.
But both are engaging in manipulation of thier followers. How does a open rebellion/civil war make the country any safer?
Tetu and Zenzi don't care as long as they get to run things. The Midnight Angels and rebel Doras don't seem to have thought any of
that through yet. They just don't get that they aren't necessarily making things better in the long term.
Coates is taking an interestingly dim view of revolutionaries here.
The most ethical revolutionary is the one dude that nobody is listening to.[/QUOTE]
You can't entirely be the MA for not being the most thoughtful of revolutionaries. They sort of came up with this whole thing on the fly. More than anything their plan was to not be killed and this just happened to be what landed on their laps.
The Dora's should consider pairing up with Changmire. He can give then an actual agenda beyond not dying.
-
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2291295]Ahh, I see. I'm not sure he'll do it even in that scenario. Part of the reason he got Roxane Gay to do BP: WoW was because he didn't want to stretch himself too thin. He still has his commitments to The Atlantic to fulfill, in addition to the BP book.[/QUOTE]
Considering he turned in a years worth of scripts in advance he probably could handle 2 monthlies, but especially for a new writer I can understand why they wouldn't want to stretch themselves too thin.
I think one consideration is that with BP he basically get to play in a sandbox all to himself. With X-men or Spider-Man he might not have that option to the same degree. Though when Whedon did X-men that was the case so ya never know.
Either way I imagine as long as sales are strong he'll stay on BP until his story is done.
-
[QUOTE=XPac;2291307]I'm not saying it's impossible to not show an African country this way. I'm merely saying if that's what Marvel chooses to do, it's believable. In fiction at least they can present it however they choose. It can be as realistic or as unrealistic as they want. [B]It's marvels property amd they obviously get to make those decisions[/B].[/QUOTE]
Forgive me, but I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make then. I'm pretty sure anyone here, supportive of Coates or not, knows this. Just because Marvel does what they want, doesn't mean it isn't problematic and isn't going to be liked and send a message people do not like. You keep pointing out that it's Coates/Marvel's work but that doesn't stop anyone from being denied the right to criticise it just because it was made/accepted by Marvel. Frankly, you're coming across as trying to police people's opinions with those kind of statements, which is probably not your intention. But that is how it looks and feels like, at least to me.
-
[QUOTE=Blind Wedjat;2291285]Coates needed that to happen so that he could get "The Message™" across.[/QUOTE]
We'll probably find out exactly what happened in the WoW book.
But if I had to guess I'd say that a friend or acquetance of hers was a victim of the Chieftan. That might help to justify her extreme reaction to what happened. But again, just a guess ... I think we'll find out soon enough.
-
[QUOTE=Rumble;2290840]lol @ everyone arguing with xpac the last 5 pages.
But that routine exception aside, i thought it was kinda cool in a bitter sweet way the solidarity virtually everyone showed after that last preview came out, even the most patient of apologists seemed fed up lol, culminating with majestic and ezyo coming together like
[IMG]http://pa1.narvii.com/5741/de20dc3ab221fc09036668d5bb1eabfb1badd5a1_hq.gif[/IMG]
Even if just temporary, we were agitated and at our wits end, together :)
I got a lil teary eyed[/QUOTE]
[B]Ha ha I admit things got a little heated way back when, but i got respect for the folks here and i am glad we moved past that.[/B]
-
[QUOTE=Blind Wedjat;2291285]Coates needed that to happen so that he could get "The Message™" across.[/QUOTE]
How does Batman find out about stuff before the Gordon Gotham P.D. does?
Maybe they go on Batman-esq patrols. Maybe a friend of a friend tipped them off.
Somehow Aneka and Ayo have a ear to the common folk that the Wakandan Intellegence does not. Not sure
why this is a problem.
If you were a Wakandan, you probably wouldn't talk to the H.Z.'s either. Them being back in any capacity
would set alarm bells off for Wakandan of a certain age who remember what they were like under Hunter.
Besides, it's been stated outright that Wakandan Military Intelligence is diminished. One could assume that their attention has
been focused on external threats (since that is what M.I. actually does) and not internal ones.
They would have spent more time looking for hostile aliens or watching Latvaria than watching the outer tribes.
And again, T'challa would have known about the bandits/rape camps if at any time Ayo and Anaka actually do what they were
supposed to do instead of pulling a Frank Castle.
-
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2291266]I honestly think there is a better chance he takes on ANOTHER title moreso than drop BP and move on.
If sales continue even close to what they are now (the sales are holding crazy strong) then Marvel won't want to lose those BP sales (Coates leaves and we are probbably back to 30K a month tops) just to prop up a franchise they don't seem 100% invested in (X-men).[/QUOTE]
I would love to test this theory out one day (soon), actually. Esp if they were to replace him with another acclaimed or big name writer, and keep the Disney marketing machine full steam behind the character. A thousand variant covers and all.
But that will never come to fruition other than wishful hypotheticals... because Coates ain't leaving this book to write anything else. Not with a movie on the way and him getting his other writer friends to hop on the gravy train. If this book continues on this trajectory, it'll be the second highest selling solo book for marvel behind Amazing Spider-Man. Only death, abduction, scandal or a lucrative money deal will rip Slott or Coates away.
-
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2291393][B]Ha ha I admit things got a little heated way back when, but i got respect for the folks here and i am glad we moved past that.[/B][/QUOTE]
It's all good homie. I do think some ppl just like to argue for the sake of arguing lol just to be combative or lowkey trollish, but it was obvious to me you were being sincere in the wait-and-see stance. So jokes aside, i have a lot of respect for your optimistic ways, even when i'm on the more skeptical side of the fence lol
-
[QUOTE=Blind Wedjat;2291385]Forgive me, but I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make then. I'm pretty sure anyone here, supportive of Coates or not, knows this. Just because Marvel does what they want, doesn't mean it isn't problematic and isn't going to be liked and send a message people do not like. You keep pointing out that it's Coates/Marvel's work but that doesn't stop anyone from being denied the right to criticise it just because it was made/accepted by Marvel. Frankly, you're coming across as trying to police people's opinions with those kind of statements, which is probably not your intention. But that is how it looks and feels like, at least to me.[/QUOTE]
A couple posts ago, Victor Freeman literally told me to "STOP IT." Is the problem that I'm trying to police Victors opinion or is the issue that Victor is trying to police mine?
As far as policing people's opinions... if I had problems with peoples opinions being different than mine I would have left this thread years ago. Reread the last half dozen pages... it's filled with me doing almost nothing but discuss the book with people who have different opinions than mine. And honestly I prefer it that way. I've been on threads where mostly agree on everything. Trust me, it gets old real fast.
As far as me arguing that Coates and marvel have a right to take the direction it's taking... I think it's a fair response to people who argue that they shouldn't be taking the book in the direction it's going. I believe writers should tell stories they believe in, and stories they themselves like to read. And either it sells or it doesn't.
-
[QUOTE=Rumble;2291449]It's all good homie. I do think some ppl just like to argue for the sake of arguing lol just to be combative or lowkey trollish, but it was obvious to me you were being sincere in the wait-and-see stance. So jokes aside, i have a lot of respect for your optimistic ways, even when i'm on the more skeptical side of the fence lol[/QUOTE]
[B]I was however i will admit i started getting a little more combative then i should of as time went on. I still wanted to stay on the fence but not i have just about fallen over onto the side that there is no hope for this, if there is a tiny sliver of hope it will likely be crushed by this next issue just based on the preview. Something BIG need to happen to renew my optimism (which to be honest i do want that to happen because in terms of buzz and financial success, Coates is crushing it, and its clear he could write a good story positively uplifting BP and Wakanda if he chooses to) I want it to happen but im not gonan play the middle of the fence unless Coates gives me a reason to[/B]
-
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2291540][B]I was however i will admit i started getting a little more combative then i should of as time went on. I still wanted to stay on the fence but not i have just about fallen over onto the side that there is no hope for this, if there is a tiny sliver of hope it will likely be crushed by this next issue just based on the preview. Something BIG need to happen to renew my optimism (which to be honest i do want that to happen because in terms of buzz and financial success, Coates is crushing it, and its clear he could write a good story positively uplifting BP and Wakanda if he chooses to) I want it to happen but im not gonan play the middle of the fence unless Coates gives me a reason to[/B][/QUOTE]
In some ways it's easier to not be optimistic. That way if it does end up being what you hope for, you can be pleasantly surprised. Optimism invites disappointed.
-
[QUOTE=XPac;2291571]In some ways it's easier to not be optimistic. That way if it does end up being what you hope for, you can be pleasantly surprised. Optimism invites disappointed.[/QUOTE]
[B]I have no issue being optimistic for it, Its just that there isn't any reason right now that Coates is giving for me to be. If this next issue slows a strong confident T'Challa pulling some true T'Challa feats i know he has, then i will be a little more hopeful and look forward to what happens next, if its the same old weak bumbling POS then i won't. I was hopeful optimistic up until this preview for issue 6. It can still be turned around but that window is closing fast. [/B]
-
[QUOTE=XPac;2291457]A couple posts ago, Victor Freeman literally told me to "STOP IT." Is the problem that I'm trying to police Victors opinion or is the issue that Victor is trying to police mine?
As far as policing people's opinions... if I had problems with peoples opinions being different than mine I would have left this thread years ago. Reread the last half dozen pages... it's filled with me doing almost nothing but discuss the book with people who have different opinions than mine. And honestly I prefer it that way. I've been on threads where mostly agree on everything. Trust me, it gets old real fast.
As far as me arguing that Coates and marvel have a right to take the direction it's taking... I think it's a fair response to people who argue that they shouldn't be taking the book in the direction it's going. I believe writers should tell stories they believe in, and stories they themselves like to read. And either it sells or it doesn't.[/QUOTE]
I respect you're opinion and that you're sticking to it, and in no way am I expecting everyone here to agree with each other all the time. I know how boring it gets. But I just don't see the point in bringing up the fact that it is what Coates wants to write and it is what Marvel liked because at the end of the day, this is being done for entertainment and commercial purposes. Coates is selling a product to an already existing fanbase that spans decades, and have expectations. I doubt he himself would be arrogant enough to tell a fan who doesn't like some of the choices he's made that "Well it's what I want to write so..." No. you're giving a job not just for Marvel's pleasure but for the fans too, and they are the ones buying and reading the product, so that reasoning in my honest opinion, doesn't apply here. If Coates were an indie comic book writer, I would accept it, but he is not. He does not have that benefit, so to speak.
However, I feel as though you, and everyone here, should respect the reasons why certain people have certain opinions and what they mean to them, rather than try to dismiss it. If I personally have acted that way towards you, then I apologise.
-
[QUOTE=Blind Wedjat;2291734]I respect you're opinion and that you're sticking to it, and in no way am I expecting everyone here to agree with each other all the time. I know how boring it gets. But I just don't see the point in bringing up the fact that it is what Coates wants to write and it is what Marvel liked because at the end of the day, this is being done for entertainment and commercial purpose. Coates is selling a product to an already existing fanbase that spans decades, and have expectations. I doubt he himself would be arrogant enough to tell a fan who doesn't like some of the choices he's made that "Well it's what I want to write so..." No. you're giving a job not just for Marvel's pleasure but for the fans too, and they are the ones buyinh and reading the product, so that reasoning in my honest opinion, doesn't apply here. If Coates were an indie comic book writer, I would accept it, but he is not. He does not have that benefit, so to speak.
However, I feel as though you, and everyone here, should respect the reasons why certain people have certain opinions and what they mean to them, rather than try to dismiss it. If I personally have acted that way towards you, then I apologise.[/QUOTE]
I believe he actually did say if fans don't like it don't buy it. And Breevort says it all the time. He probably tells people that on a weekly basis.
Yes marvel is publishing this book for commercial and entertainment purposes... and Coates is in fact suceeding in doing just that as it's been the top selling (or close to the top selling) solo book at marvel. Iron Man and Captain America are currently eating Black Panthers dust.
But just because marvel is publishing the book for commercial purposes doesn't mean Coates is writing a book for commercial purposes. Again, he's writing a story he believes in and a story he himself would want to read. He's not chasing sales, or at least he shouldn't be doing that because frankly that never works.
In other words he's having his cake and eating it too. He's putting out the story he wants to put out and it's presently a critical and commercial sucess. Which unfortuantely for the people who don't like the book is probably why they shouldn't be expecting him to change anything anytime soon. If it ain't broken...
-
[QUOTE=Rumble;2290840]lol @ everyone arguing with xpac the last 5 pages.
But that routine exception aside, i thought it was kinda cool in a bitter sweet way the solidarity virtually everyone showed after that last preview came out, even the most patient of apologists seemed fed up lol, culminating with majestic and ezyo coming together like
[IMG]http://pa1.narvii.com/5741/de20dc3ab221fc09036668d5bb1eabfb1badd5a1_hq.gif[/IMG]
Even if just temporary, we were agitated and at our wits end, together :)
I got a lil teary eyed[/QUOTE]
Agreed 100%.
The preview for BP#6 more or less seems to have 99.7% of the posters in this thread, unified in camraderie and mutually shared disgust at what Coates is doing.
That to me, is a very good thing. :cool:
-
[QUOTE=XPac;2291749]I believe he actually did say if fans don't like it don't buy it. [/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
For once, I agree with you 100%.
Coates did indeed say this especially as he stated that old school BP fans would not like what he was going to be doing with the mythos.[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=XPac;2291749]Yes marvel is publishing this book for commercial and entertainment purposes... and Coates is in fact suceeding in doing just that as it's been the top selling (or close to the top selling) solo book at marvel. Iron Man and Captain America are currently eating Black Panthers dust. [/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
As you yourself have stated, massive sales do not always serve as an indicator of superior storytelling ability or attendant accumen.[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=XPac;2291749]But just because marvel is publishing the book for commercial purposes doesn't mean Coates is writing a book for commercial purposes. [B]Again, he's writing a story he believes in and a story he himself would want to read[/B]. [/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
And to do so, (the bolded) he's purposely distorted the BP mythos and the characters therein to such a degree that they're as virtually unrecognizable to most long term BP enthusiasts as the now aesthetically Boko Haramized Wakanda.
The BP mythos did not appeal to Coates until he got a chance to rewrite it to his own jaundiced perspective but here's the thing.
I could care less what Coates wants to read because the freaking book isn't about what HE wants to read.
It's about what fans interested in exploring the Afro-Futurist possibilities ensconced within the folds of Wakandas myriad mysteries, wish to read about.[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=XPac;2291749]He's not chasing sales, or at least he shouldn't be doing that because frankly that never works. [/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
And yet by twisting the BP mythos into a nightmare vision spawned from his biased imagination, it can be reasonably argued, that Coates has chased sales to attract a demographic of readers who never found the concept of a competent King of a 10,000 year old Afro-Futurist nation to be relatable to their specific literary tastes and expectations.
Why should this be acceptable by any stretch of the imagination?[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=XPac;2291749]Which unfortuantely for the people who don't like the book is probably why they shouldn't be expecting him to change anything anytime soon. [/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
Coates has an agenda which he will follow through to the letter for as long as the book remains profitable to Marvel and in this, Marvel are only doing what they've always done.
Support divisive material that makes money.[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=XPac;2291749]If it ain't broken...[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=3]
The BP mythos has been broken since AvX.
Coates is merely finishing sad mythos off with much [I]Rape Camp[/I] flair and elan.[/SIZE]
-
[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2291269]The People are absolutely NOT protagonist in any way shape or form. That ship sailed when they used suicide bombers on innocent Wakandans in #4. Tetu and Zenzi ultimately want T'challa has: power and reign over Wakanda. They want to be the new status quo.
The Doras are a bit of a wild card, but I wouldn't qualify them at protagonists either. At best, they mean well, but they (the MAs in particular) are rather misguided. It's becoming more and more clear that the MAs are warriors first, everything else second. They are great on the battlefield, but beyond that, they'll have a very tough time achieving what they wish to achieve.
T'Challa wants an end to the turmoil in his terms, resulting a maintenance of the current status quo, more or less (T'Challa trying to bring Shuri back, despite the difficulty of the task, could be considered an example of him trying to back things to how they were). The question now is, will he be able to achieve that goal in light of everything that happened (including events pre-Secret Wars and stuff in the Coates run).
The major rebellions have happened in the outskirts really. The capital city--T'Challa's turf for sure--has been fine, save the suicide bombing orchestrate by Tetu and Stane.[/QUOTE]
The reason I asked the question is that the protagonist does not have to the hero of the story. They are usually the ones that drive the story forward. The Doras and The People are driving this story. In fact with T'Challa, his story has not progressed very far thus far. I still contend that the central protagonist of this story is Wakanda itself and all of the players (T'Challa, Zenzi, Tetu, The Angel and Changamire ) are all vying or its future.
-
[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2261061]I could see Killmonger switching sides, fwiw. Not at all my choice, but we don't know how they'll portray the character in the movie (certainly, him teaming up with Klaw is such an antithesis to the character that we can't assume anything).[/QUOTE]
What does Klaw even mean in the MCU.
He isn't responsible for the death of TChaka. He is just a thief.
He isn't the unkillable ghost to torment BP.
Unless they use some family fodder like Syan or Ramonda to make that died personal.
-
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2291752]Agreed 100%.
The preview for BP#6 more or less seems to have 99.7% of the posters in this thread, unified in camraderie and mutually shared disgust at what Coates is doing.
That to me, is a very good thing. :cool:[/QUOTE]
The real disappointment is reading T'Challa waffle back and forth with the revolutions ideology almost appearing to side with the rebels. That and the narration of the Doras stating that they were bred by men to give their bodies to other men. Once T'Challa married Storm, shouldn't the role of the Doras change? You would think that Coates should have written the Dora wanting to leave the fold and not being allowed to do so. Does one have to always remain a Dora? And now the Doras are enslaved? This story is spiraling down a deep treadmill styled rabbit hole. Coates really needs to push this story forward. If he wants to change Wakanda, I wish he would do so and move one to the next story. But I guess we have to wait until issue 12.