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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754109]The whole damn scenario is, to be very blunt, stupid. Done for the sake of being done, with literally no explanation given. This falls squarely on the writer(s) and editorial. They literally haven't given us anything to work with. Hickman at least had the decency to give an explanation. Whether one felt it was a fair or solid explanation was the question.
Plus, Wakanda in general being involved in this? That's ridiculous in of itself. But once again, this was done purely to be done. And with certain agendas it appears.[/QUOTE]
Is it really that surprising that Wakanda is involved?
Again, Phoenix is destroying every planet in it's path and heading in the direction of earth. Given that Wakanda is ON earth, doesn't Shuri have reason to be just a little bit worried about that?
And when Cyclops tells every nation on the planet they need to disarm simply because he said so, is the ruler of a warrior nation simply going to shrug and agree to that?
Though I agree that the writing could have been better, I think Wakanda's involvement makes perfect sense.
Frankly I think if people completely ignored Wakanda I think more people would be complaining about that... and given the global and even political nature of it, I think such complaints in this instance would be understandable.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1754133]There is nothing on panel that says Shuri disagreed with them being there. And since she is queen... [B]she had to invite them there. [/B][/QUOTE]
We literally don't know that. That is an key piece of information that the writers could've place in a single panel. And they couldn't bother to do that.
Saying that she did is simply assuming. A fair assumption, but an assumption nonetheless.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1754157]Is it really that surprising that Wakanda is involved?
Again, Phoenix is destroying every planet in it's path and heading in the direction of earth. Given that Wakanda is ON earth, doesn't Shuri have reason to be just a little bit worried about that?
And when Cyclops tells every nation on the planet they need to disarm simply because he said so, is the ruler of a warrior nation simply going to shrug and agree to that?
Though I agree that the writing could have been better, I think Wakanda's involvement makes perfect sense.
Frankly I think if people completely ignored Wakanda I think more people would be complaining about that... and given the global and even political nature of it, I think such complaints in this instance would be understandable.[/QUOTE]
Shuri literally showed up for one panel, said three words, and never showed up again.
That whole event was horrid. I'm sorry.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754185]We literally don't know that. That is an key piece of information that the writers could've place in a single panel. And they couldn't bother to do that.
Saying that she did is simply assuming. A fair assumption, but an assumption nonetheless.[/QUOTE]
Is there a reason NOT to assume they were invited?
This entire chain of thought frankly is just about attempting to get Shuri clear so that T'Challa alone can be thrown under the bus for what happened.
The reality of it is this... Shuri is the ruler of Wakanda at this time. Regardless of what T'Challa says or does she has ULTIMATE responsibility here since UNLIKE Time Runs Out what was going on wasn't hidden from her. So even IF T'CHalla invited them and even IF it was entirely his idea, because she sits on the big chair the decision is ultimately hers, and the responsibility is ultimately hers. That's just part of the job.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754192]Shuri literally showed up for one panel, said three words, and never showed up again.
That whole situation, and the event in general, could've been done sooooooooooooooo much better. As is, its horrid. I'm sorry.[/QUOTE]
yeah she didn't even show up to help her brother when he got packed out by his own wife. That's probably why she locked up Transonic being petty lol. I'm still waiting for Storm vs Shuri.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754192]Shuri literally showed up for one panel, said three words, and never showed up again.
That whole event was horrid. I'm sorry.[/QUOTE]
If you didn't like the event then you didn't like the event. Not one of my personal faves either, to be honest.
I'm just disagreeing with you about it being ridiculous that Wakanda was involved. The fact that Phoenix was a global threat frankly justified anyone on the planet deciding to get involved. And the fact that the P5 began forcing the nations of the earth to disarm gave Wakanda specific reason to take sides. Shuri's not going to want Cyclops or anyone else for that matter to start dictating policy for her nation.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1754197]Is there a reason NOT to assume they were invited?
[B]This entire chain of thought frankly is just about attempting to get Shuri clear so that T'Challa alone can be thrown under the bus for what happened.[/B]
The reality of it is this... Shuri is the ruler of Wakanda at this time. Regardless of what T'Challa says or does she has ULTIMATE responsibility here since UNLIKE Time Runs Out what was going on wasn't hidden from her. So even IF T'CHalla invited them and even IF it was entirely his idea, because she sits on the big chair the decision is ultimately hers, and the responsibility is ultimately hers. That's just part of the job.[/QUOTE]
I am not throwing any character under the bus. I criticize the writers. I've always criticized the writers.
The bs with Shuri popping up for a panel out of nowhere and disappearing with no explanation as to why she did it or where she went? That's on the writers.
The stuff T'Challa has done that I've disagreed with over and over in this very thread? I've criticized Hickman, the writer.
I've been very consistent in my criticism. Let's be very clear.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754185]We literally don't know that. That is an key piece of information that the writers could've place in a single panel. And they couldn't bother to do that.
Saying that she did is simply assuming. A fair assumption, but an assumption nonetheless.[/QUOTE]
Considering the fact T'Challa was the Black Panther seen on panel 99.9% of the time a BP was featured in AvX, I find myself close to LMAO at suggestions that Shuri invited anyone to Wakanda let alone the Avengers. :)
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[QUOTE=XPac;1754212]If you didn't like the event then you didn't like the event. Not one of my personal faves either, to be honest.
I'm just disagreeing with you about it being ridiculous that Wakanda was involved. The fact that Phoenix was a global threat frankly justified anyone on the planet deciding to get involved. And the fact that the P5 began forcing the nations of the earth to disarm gave Wakanda specific reason to take sides. Shuri's not going to want Cyclops or anyone else for that matter to start dictating policy for her nation.[/QUOTE]
Wakanda defending itself of even taking an offensive approach (even if it teaming up with others) is one thing.
Harboring the Avengers? Nah....
AvX deserves all the flack it gets.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1754221]Considering the fact T'Challa was the Black Panther seen on panel 99.9% of the time a BP was featured in AvX, I find myself close to LMAO at suggestions that Shuri invited anyone to Wakanda let alone the Avengers. :)[/QUOTE]
Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. The problem is, we literally don't know. Literally. No panel, no off-hand comment. Nothing. We can only assume. That's all we can do.
And that's just one of many mishaps this story has.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1754212]If you didn't like the event then you didn't like the event. Not one of my personal faves either, to be honest.
I'm just disagreeing with you about it being ridiculous that Wakanda was involved. The fact that Phoenix was a global threat frankly justified anyone on the planet deciding to get involved. And the fact that the P5 began forcing the nations of the earth to disarm gave Wakanda specific reason to take sides. [B]Shuri's not going to want Cyclops or anyone else for that matter to start dictating policy for her nation[/B].[/QUOTE]
If it didn't happen on panel.........you know how the rest of the saying goes.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754232]Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. The problem is, we literally don't know. Literally. No panel, no off-hand comment. Nothing. We can only assume. That's all we can do.
And that's just one of many mishaps this story has.[/QUOTE]
The whole event was an ongoing mishap. LOL!
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1753976]My esteemed friend and brotha from anotha Mother, as much as it pains me to do this, I'm just gonna have to disagree with you on this.
T'Challa betrayed Shuri when he chose to maintain planet-busting WMD's (he'd developed with Reed Richards) within Wakanda (albeit within the contrived conceit of the hitherto never before mentioned "Necropolis")
T'Challa went on to further compound the level of his perfidy by holding Thanos, Proxima Midnight, Corvus Glaive, Black Swan and Terrax the Enlightened incarcerated within the Necropolis which regardless of what arguments are presented here, still exists within Wakanda's boarders.
And please don't get me started on the whole Namor chilling like a wine sipping villain in Wakanda thing right under Shuri's nose.
It's pretty fair to say, that if any other character had pulled half of the crap that T'Challa was scripted as pulling, most reades would be accusing that character of high treason.
I fail to see why T'Challa should be given a pass in this regard.[/QUOTE]
Everything you've stated here is a fact BCB, no denying that. But to only look at this and not take into account everything else that T'Challa has accomplished as leader of Wakanda is a disservice to him. Everything was destroyed in Time Runs Out. If he had done nothing and isolated himself and Wakanda, they all still would have been destroyed in the Incursion. T'Challa was uneven in TRO and he should have anticipated something happening incase his prisoners escaped for sure. But no matter what, no one could solve the Incursions and everything was going to die, there was no escaping that fact.
He's not being given a pass, he worked in the constraints of the story written by Hickman. He made choices based on information given to him by Bast and the circumstances that he and the Illuminati were up against. Again, even if he had done everything perfect, everything would have still been destroyed.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754226]Wakanda defending itself of even taking an offensive approach (even if it teaming up with others) is one thing.
Harboring the Avengers? Nah....
AvX deserves all the flack it gets.[/QUOTE]
Maybe I'm getting posters mixed up, but weren't you one of the people who argued that Shuri might be willing to work with Namor if she knew about what was happening in Time Runs Out? If she's willing to work with Namor in a dire situation, I'd certainly think she'd be willing to work with the Avengers who DIDN'T flood their country.
If's a potentially dire situation and Shuri made the decision to assist the people best equipped at dealing with it. The fact that her brother was one of them likely helped.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1754221]Considering the fact T'Challa was the Black Panther seen on panel 99.9% of the time a BP was featured in AvX, I find myself close to LMAO at suggestions that Shuri invited anyone to Wakanda let alone the Avengers. :)[/QUOTE]
Can't use logic, just using dumb, huge pictures and vague passive aggressive attacks (and also pretend you don't read stuff)
There was nothing on panel saying T'challa invited them either. I missed the panel with party invitations.
But, here is the gist of all this, which is what really rubs some of you (...) the wrong way:
Shuri doesn't matter. She is support and support only. you guys judge her awesomeness based on single panels in arcs... but then don't criticize her for single panels in arcs. Can't have it one way or another. She is an awesome SUPPORT character that some want to be something more, for some bizarre reason.
If Shuri WAS important and WAS the focus... she would be getting the same sort of deconstruction Tchalla gets. THe only reason she doesn't get that is because nobody cares about her and support character don't get that sort of attention.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754232]Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. The problem is, we literally don't know. Literally. No panel, no off-hand comment. Nothing. We can only assume. That's all we can do.
And that's just one of many mishaps this story has.[/QUOTE]
I think that's just intentionally playing dumb.
If the Avengers are in Wakanda and Shuri is standing right there assisting them, there's no reason whatsoever not to assume she has their approval. To NOT assume it would frankly make less sense.
Again, Shuri is right there and she clearly see's what happening. The decision is ultimately hers, and the responsibility is ultimately hers... that's what it means to be ruler.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754086]You know what's the crazy part?
Transonic and Shuri....are NOWHERE to be found after that scan!
No explanation, no interrogation, no exposition...nothing. We don't see them again.
I mean, how am I suppose to even take AvX bs seriously? All this to kill Xavier, kill Wakandans, severely damage Wakanda, and destroy a marriage? While making a bunch of characters look stupid along the way?
I knew AvX was trash, but damn...
EDIT: neohuey89 beat me to it, on Shuri's appearance in the event.[/QUOTE]
Like many others pointed out, AvX was just a horrid event written in the same vein of Civil War. WHat was the reason that Bill Foster was brought into the story? To show how badass Ragnarok was. Bill is a scientist of the highest caliber and all we got out of that was to see how grow and get a hole blown in his chest. There was no follow up until Hudlin wrote his story.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754226]Wakanda defending itself of even taking an offensive approach (even if it teaming up with others) is one thing.
Harboring the Avengers? Nah....
AvX deserves all the flack it gets.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, the avengers were trying to figure otu a plan to stop a cosmic destoryer who powered 5 mutants to omega like levels.
And their planned worked first... in Wakanda. They NEEDEd the avengers because they needed SW and Hope
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[QUOTE=XPac;1754268]I think that's just intentionally playing dumb.
If the Avengers are in Wakanda and Shuri is standing right there assisting them, there's no reason whatsoever not to assume she has their approval. To NOT assume it would frankly make less sense.
Again, Shuri is right there and she clearly see's what happening. The decision is ultimately hers, and the responsibility is ultimately hers... that's what it means to be ruler.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/2zf1qo2.jpg[/IMG]
[SIZE=4]
Nuff said. :)[/SIZE]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1754270]Like many others pointed out, AvX was just a horrid event written in the same vein of Civil War. WHat was the reason that Bill Foster was brought into the story? To show how badass Ragnarok was. [B]Bill is a scientist of the highest caliber and all we got out of that was to see how grow and get a hole blown in his chest. There was no follow up until Hudlin wrote his story.[/B][/QUOTE]
Which just goes to illustrate just how things like this, fall through the cracks unless a writer is professional enough to realise that all characters deserve to be treated with dignity asopposed to the few rocking plot armour.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1754272]To be fair, the avengers were trying to figure otu a plan to stop a cosmic destoryer who powered 5 mutants to omega like levels.
And their planned worked first... in Wakanda. They NEEDEd the avengers because they needed SW and Hope[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the various things needed were Hope, Wanda, and Iron Fist (though they didn't know about Danny at the time).
Stark was important too, though in THEORY a different comic book smart could could have filled that role.
Intuitively the Avengers had all the pieces of the puzzle... they just needed to put them together. And they needed a safe place where they could have the time to do it. Wakanda bought them that time.
There was certainly inherent risk in doing that... though there's also inherent risk in the Avengers failing. As we saw in the books, she opted to help and despite what happened I'm not entirely sure she regrets it despite the outcome. If she does it's not shown on panel.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1754290][IMG]samedumbimageposted7xaweek.jpg[/IMG]
[SIZE=4]
Nuff said. :)[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
keep it classy
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1754296]Which just goes to illustrate just how things like this, fall through the cracks unless a writer is professional enough to realise that all characters deserve to be treated with dignity asopposed to the few rocking plot armour.[/QUOTE]
That's the gist of everything being discussed. Characters are held at the whim of the writer. Tony Stark was pretty much written as a villain in Civil War. Captain America stomped all over the civil rights of mutants in AvX and just about every certified genius in Everything Dies was written as incompetent. All done to move a plot point.
I wouldn't necessarily categorize all of these writers as bad, just poor execution of an idea and mischaracterization in many instances to move the story and fans one direction or another.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1754259]Can't use logic, just using dumb, huge pictures and vague passive aggressive attacks (and also pretend you don't read stuff)
There was nothing on panel saying T'challa invited them either. I missed the panel with party invitations.
But, here is the gist of all this, which is what really rubs some of you (...) the wrong way:
Shuri doesn't matter. She is support and support only. you guys judge her awesomeness based on single panels in arcs... but then don't criticize her for single panels in arcs. Can't have it one way or another. She is an awesome SUPPORT character that some want to be something more, for some bizarre reason.
If Shuri WAS important and WAS the focus... she would be getting the same sort of deconstruction Tchalla gets. THe only reason she doesn't get that is because nobody cares about her and support character don't get that sort of attention.[/QUOTE]
There are a lot of fans who care about Shuri. She wasn't the focal point of this story and never was meant to be. She should be held accountable for her actions like anyone else. But it's just as wrong to go off on her as it is to go off on T'Challa or any other member of the Illuminati. They were all written to fail.
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And I thought the X-men fans didn't care much about the BP and Storm pairing. I (We were) was wrong.
Link: [url]http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?67437-RESULTS-favorite-X-COUPLES/page12[/url]
[QUOTE=Master of Sound;1753678][B][SIZE=3]NUMBER 13
With a total of 92 points and one #1 vote
[ATTACH=CONFIG]31691[/ATTACH]
Storm & Black Panther[/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=XPac;1754268]I think that's just intentionally playing dumb.[/QUOTE]
No. I just don't make assumptions, no matter who the character is. Every comment or criticism of a character's actions or portrayal, I always go by what's on panel. Both in this thread and elsewhere. We (the users) had similar debates about the T'Challa vs. Black Dwarf confrontation.
This whole situation isn't about bigging up one character over the other. This is about criticizing [B][I]bad writing[/I][/B]. Period. That's it. And in AvX's case, its especially bad. So bad that basic stuff that should've been clear from the getgo (like how involved is she) is not mentioned.
The bottomline: AvX = Trash. That's all.
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[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;1754344]And I thought the X-men fans didn't care much about the BP and Storm pairing. I (We were) was wrong.
Link: [url]http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?67437-RESULTS-favorite-X-COUPLES/page12[/url][/QUOTE]
They made the top 15? In the X-boards?
Thats a pleasant surprise. Wow...
And I wonder how many BP fans voted. Fair to say, not that many?
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[url]http://illuminatingcomics.tumblr.com/post/120258618130[/url]
Found the website for those posts from earlier, Ezyo.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754369]They made the top 15? In the X-boards?
Thats a pleasant surprise. Wow...
And I wonder how many BP fans voted. Fair to say, not that many?[/QUOTE]
I know it sounds unbelievable but yes, they got a lot of votes. :)
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754362]No. I just don't make assumptions, no matter who the character is. Every comment or criticism of a character's actions or portrayal, I always go by what's on panel. Both in this thread and elsewhere. We (the users) had similar debates about the T'Challa vs. Black Dwarf confrontation.
This whole situation isn't about bigging up one character over the other. This is about criticizing [B][I]bad writing[/I][/B]. Period. That's it. And in AvX's case, its especially bad. So bad that basic stuff that should've been clear from the getgo (like how involved is she) is not mentioned.
The bottomline: AvX = Trash. That's all.[/QUOTE]
If Shuri wasn't in the book, I'd argue you may have a point.
But Shuri IS on panel working with the Avengers. It's right there shown in the book.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1754250]He's not being given a pass, he worked in the constraints of the story written by Hickman. He made choices based on information given to him by Bast and the circumstances that he and the Illuminati were up against. [B]Again, even if he had done everything perfect, everything would have still been destroyed.[/B][/QUOTE]
And that's fine, considering the nature of the story. It's safe to say those that have an issue with T'Challa's portrayal are bothered by the "how" and the "why" in this case.
Also, this isn't a "Shit on T'Challa" fest. He's a fictional character at the mercy of his writer and sometimes editorial. That's who the criticisms ultimately go towards.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1754250]Everything you've stated here is a fact BCB, no denying that. But to only look at this and not take into account everything else that T'Challa has accomplished as leader of Wakanda is a disservice to him. Everything was destroyed in Time Runs Out. If he had done nothing and isolated himself and Wakanda, they all still would have been destroyed in the Incursion. T'Challa was uneven in TRO and he should have anticipated something happening incase his prisoners escaped for sure. But no matter what, no one could solve the Incursions and everything was going to die, there was no escaping that fact.
He's not being given a pass, he worked in the constraints of the story written by Hickman. He made choices based on information given to him by Bast and the circumstances that he and the Illuminati were up against. Again, even if he had done everything perfect, everything would have still been destroyed.[/QUOTE]
My brotha, I agree with everything you've posted herein but here's the thing, at no point was Bast seen instructing T'Challa to keep Shuri in the dark as to what was going on with the Incursions, the Illuminati, the WMD's or the two legged monsters he was keeping in his Necropolis based den of deceit and subterfuge.
And though, I fully understand that T'Challa's actions were dictated by the whims of Hickman, that doesn't make his ignominuous actions any less disgraceful.
I recognise all of the titular characters achievements under Priest, Hudlin, McDuffie, Johns, McGregor, Lee, kirby and Liss but as for Maberry and Hickman, hell to the naw x 10,000.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1754398]If Shuri wasn't in the book, I'd argue you may have a point.
But Shuri IS on panel working with the Avengers. It's right there shown in the book.[/QUOTE]
All I'm saying is I wish it were made clear what her role in all this was, especially considering she was the Queen at the time. All we can do is assume she was in cahoots with the Avengers. That's bad writing.
To top it off, she literally appeared in one panel...one. And said three words that don't explain much anyway. As a reader, I'm not exactly certain why she did it, where transonic is going, why, assuming she's working with the Avengers, she decided to go with it, and so on. That's bad writing. I have my issues with Hickman, but I don't see him doing that kind of stuff.
The whole event: bad writing. I personally don't give T'Challa, Shuri, or Ororo (as far as Wakanda is concerned) much flack as characters for this event. They written completely ooc, damn near nonsensical, and seemingly done with an agenda in mind. I just wish that event wasn't cannon. But alas...
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754362]No. I just don't make assumptions, no matter who the character is. Every comment or criticism of a character's actions or portrayal, I always go by what's on panel. Both in this thread and elsewhere. We (the users) had similar debates about the T'Challa vs. Black Dwarf confrontation.
This whole situation isn't about bigging up one character over the other. This is about criticizing [B][I]bad writing[/I][/B]. Period. That's it. And in AvX's case, its especially bad. So bad that basic stuff that should've been clear from the getgo (like how involved is she) is not mentioned.
The bottomline: AvX = Trash. That's all.[/QUOTE]
Real talk.
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[QUOTE=Holt;1753620]Some prob/costume gloves for Civil War.
[IMG]https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1499/23965968014_aca4b06213_o.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Those are pretty awesome. I can't wait to see all of the BP/T'Challa costumes at the various comic cons post CA: CW. I know people cosplay as him already, but I want to see them now after T'Challa officially makes his cinematic debut.
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[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1754389][url]http://illuminatingcomics.tumblr.com/post/120258618130[/url]
Found the website for those posts from earlier, Ezyo.[/QUOTE]
I've read your writeups on Shuri and must say that they make for interesting reading.
I will have to sit down and re-read them before making my observations and conclusions known to you.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1754312]That's the gist of everything being discussed. Characters are held at the whim of the writer. Tony Stark was pretty much written as a villain in Civil War. Captain America stomped all over the civil rights of mutants in AvX and just about every certified genius in Everything Dies was written as incompetent. All done to move a plot point.
I wouldn't necessarily categorize all of these writers as bad, just poor execution of an idea and mischaracterization in many instances to move the story and fans one direction or another.[/QUOTE]
I wouldnt use incompetent. I would just say that just didnt have the answers that they normally would in a run if the mill story. No different then when gets beat up by a new villain at the beginning of a story but manages to beat them by tge end of it.
Which in the big picture view was all Hickman NA run was. An extended fight that didnt have the heroes winning until the end.
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So the guy who's post I posted earlier saw some of your replies and he responded to what he saw. Here is it below. Again, its his post and opinions. Not mine.
I did suggest to him to sign up here, so that he can reply to you all directly. Hopefully, he does.
[QUOTE]@Realdealholy im reading some of the responses and it seems in my estimation that people are misconstruing what I'm saying and the point of view I am coming from. And honestly I don't blame them as they really don't know me as a poster. So I will explain further...
I am 100% PRO-T'Challa. He is my favorite hero of all time. He is the Black Man that I DREAMED about being growing up. I am not coming from a point of view of "T'Challa Sucks" and Shuri is fantastic, as you know, for a while I was not particularly a fan of Shuri being Queen. I had various reasons for this, but mostly it's because T'Challa, outside of Priest and Hudlin, hadn't really gotten to spread his wings and be THE MAN. No disrespect to Priest, but even in that book T'Challa wasn't the MAN in the sense that he wasn't he one narrating his OWN book, it was left up to an outsider to narrate and give T'Challa perspective. What I found refreshing about Hudlin's portrayal was that it showed T'Challa's Struggles, triumphs, failures and Glory from HIS perspective, and with great respect. Black Panther was every bit the HERO and KING that he always deserved to be portrayed as. He WON fights, he COMMANDED respect, he used INTELLECT and stone cold calculation, he was a man who I could see a NATION following and trusting him.
When that got stripped away, and Shuri replaced him, I was bitter. However, thanks to posters like you and Mr Majestik, I was able to re-read the arc with fresh eyes and come to APPRECIATE what Shuri represented. I'm not going to attempt to force my opinion of Hickman's run on anyone else, suffice to say, it DID fracture T'Challa's fan-base, and I base this just not on the conversations we've had here, or what I've read on CBR, but in real life conversations I've had with Panther fans.
So my viewpoint is that, as KING, T'Challa has a responsibility greater than that of other superheroes, and his responsibilities within Hickman's run were...sorely lacking. Now taking into context that these events DID happen and that T'Challa CHOSE to make certain decisions, I feel that as KING, simply pressing a gem and "resetting" everything is a cop out, because it doesnt force T'Challa to come to grips with his actions. It actually totally undermines the character of Shuri and what SHE sacrificed in the name of Wakanda. People are using Namor's flooding of Wakanda against Shuri, when it could be argued that harboring the murderer of your people without alerting your Queen, your blood relative who to this point has nothing but respect for you and your commitment towards the kingdom, is an equally heinous offense.
In my opinion, T'Challa should INDEED face some sort of judgement for his actions, my thoughts aren't as harsh as Majestik's, as I fully and totally BELIEVE in T'Challa as a character and as a King. But does everyone? No. I believe Coates has an opportunity, an opportunity that he is aware of, to UNITE Wakanda 100% in T'Challa's favor, and by doing so unite the fanbase that has been fractured.
[B]
"In recent years Wakandans have endured a coup courtesy of the villainous Achebe, another courtesy Dr. Doom, the murder of two of T’Challa top lieutenants, a cataclysmic flood courtesy of Prince Namor, the subsequent dissolution of a royal marriage, and finally decimation and conquest at the hands of Thanos’ Black Order. Wakanda had always prided itself on having never been conquered. This is no longer true. What, then, is the country if it is as vulnerable as all others? And what happens to a state when its absolute monarch can no longer fulfill the base requirement of any government—securing the safety of their people?"
[/B]
- Ta-Nahisi Coates
Again, Coates is directly addressing the trials and tribulations of recent years, and I believe he is conceding that a "reset" is not a proper way of dealing with the problem. There HAS to be accountability. Without accountability how can there be change? How can there be growth? How can there be the promise of wisdom through experience? T'Challa, as ALL Kings must, will have to face both the triumphs and failures of this kingdom. I also believe that Coates referencing "See Wakanda And Die" is a subtle illustration of the T'Challa that is 100% worthy of the title of King. This is the T'Challa who will earn redemption and the trust of his people. The People are simply a Physical manifestation of doubt. The doubt T'Challa grappled with in New Avengers, the doubt that some in the nation feel towards him as monarch, the doubt of some of the readership. By the end of this first Arc I firmly believe there will be NO doubt that T'Challa deserves to be King. The Nation, Shuri, and most importantly the READERSHIP will be witness to what makes T'Challa the Once And Future King[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754469]So the guy who's post I posted earlier saw some of your replies and he responded to what he saw. Here is it below. Again, its his post and opinions. Not mine.
I did suggest to him to sign up here, so that he can reply to you all directly. Hopefully, he does.[/QUOTE]
[B]Good Read I agree with where he is coming from. I share the same thoughts. I think Both Shuri and T'Challa are great and they both need to be in positions of power as they add to the mythos in a great way and this is a good chance for coates to redeem tchalla as well[/B]
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1754441]All I'm saying is I wish it were made clear what her role in all this was, especially considering she was the Queen at the time. All we can do is assume she was in cahoots with the Avengers. That's bad writing.
To top it off, she literally appeared in one panel...one. And said three words that don't explain much anyway. As a reader, I'm not exactly certain why she did it, where transonic is going, why, assuming she's working with the Avengers, she decided to go with it, and so on. That's bad writing. I have my issues with Hickman, but I don't see him doing that kind of stuff.
The whole event: bad writing. I personally don't give T'Challa, Shuri, or Ororo (as far as Wakanda is concerned) much flack as characters for this event. They written completely ooc, damn near nonsensical, and seemingly done with an agenda in mind. I just wish that event wasn't cannon. But alas...[/QUOTE]
I think why she did it was pretty simple... she agreed with her brother and the Avengers. Hence her being shown helping them. There was no scene specifically having her stand there and say: "I agree with the Avengers," but I think the writer rightly assumed that 99% of the readers can figure that out on their own by simply showing her standing with them in the book. They also show her face in the intro page breaking down who is on whose side, if that helps. But you didn't get more than that because frankly there wasn't more to it than that. She helped a little when the Avengers needed a little help, and then the story moved on. There were repurcussions obviously... which the books do address.
When you get right down to it, this is an Avengers and X-Men event and Shuri is neither. She's a supporting character for T'Challa and both she and Wakanda were in large part in the story just to do that... support T'Challa. Show what he brings to the table. A lot of books DON'T do that, and I actually thought it was cool that AvX did. I hope more Avenger stories use Wakanda more quite frankly for the big stuff at least.
But it also shows there is baggage and consequences to using Wakanda as a resource... which makes it all the more interesting.