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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;376970]Valid points have been raised both pro and con about KotD. I have no problem with it as it offered another avenue to view T'Challa. It's obvious that some don't like it and I agree more can be done with it. But I'm not skeptical about what Hickman is doing or his end goal for T'Challa and the Illuminati. I'm sticking with it.[/QUOTE]
Hi Marvell2100, I got so caught up in my Chaos bringing that I neglected to acknowledge one of your posts a few pages back.
Major apologies my friend. :cool:
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;377022]Hi Marvell2100, I got so caught up in my Chaos bringing that I neglected to acknowledge one of your posts a few pages back.
Major apologies my friend. :cool:[/QUOTE]
No need for you to apologize BCB. We got a good debate going on here so it's all good.
The best thing is that I'm back on the regular now.
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[QUOTE=PSYCHIATRIST;376856]:D Still a hoot, Flex. This ish had me rollin' at work!
But really tho'...when I saw BP say gimme that bomb, Reed! I amma represent! I was like, D:eek:yuuumm! My boy's back for real! Then, 20 panels later the KoTD just...! I mean why'd you take the trigger in the first place! :mad: As if that wasn't enough, Namor (once again) stays gangsta and did the damn thing! BP, man! I thought I knew you, playa! Hickman's promised some kinda payoff but after DW. I dunno if I can take this no' mo'!
As for the crying, I ain't gonna lie, I cringed like a mofo and I could've sworn I heard Tupac's voice sayin', "Lord, I suffered through the years, and shed so many tears..
Lord, I lost so many peers, and shed so many tears"![/QUOTE]
It takes more guts to face death and not commit mass murder to save your own hide. I don't think that is "gangsta" at all. It's not more "gangsta" then bending his knee to Proxima who called him a dead man, just to save him own hide. There nothing gangsta about killing innocent people.
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;377040]It takes more guts to face death and not commit mass murder to save your own hide. I don't think that is "gangsta" at all. It's not more "gangsta" then bending his knee to Proxima who called him a dead man, just to save him own hide. There nothing gangsta about killing innocent people.[/QUOTE]
I think T'Challa would have lost a lot more if he had blown up that planet. There would have been no gain for him at all. Namor had already lost his soul so it was nothing for him to slide down further into the abyss. That's not a road I want to see T'Challa go down. it would have been a major hit to his character.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;377009]Bro, you aint neva lied.
T'Challa went out like garden implement. :smh:....
Different books, same BS.
But y'know let the [B]Crying Games[/B] continue.
That's T'Challa's character "growth" right there with a couple of off panel victories and generalized pyrrhic crap thrown in for good meassure. :smh:[/QUOTE]
Correct bobo, I've been following NA since #1, I registered to praise the book. Then, this happened! Gaddamit! The KoTD's making his sis look like Cabal material! Bast where you at?!? Dem dead BPs just bounced on yaboy! As for the rest of the NA, good looking out Strange. About time you put the Supreme back in Sorceror! Hulk...damn brah...I can't even. Namor...keep being Namor, son! Imperius Rex! Blackbolt...dude...what happen to that voice? Wait...don't say anythin', it's coo' though.
Anyhoo, glad to see the Brotherhood (mah peeps) stayin' civil in regards to the latest BP developments. Stay creepy, brothers!
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;376964]Yeah. While i'm on the other side of this argument and pro-Hickman at the moment--I'm fully on the Deconstructing v. Reconstructing. T'challa reconstructing has been minimal. Since this is a deconstructing story, the stuff like stale mating Batman and other little things, seems lacking. To the point where if he had prior reconstructing in a positive manner, I don't think we would be split or having this debate. So I get where you guys are coming from.[/QUOTE]
I appreciate your meeting me halfway on this debate but at present, I'm finding it virtually impossible to give Jonathan Hickman the benefit of the doubt where T'Challa's trajectory is concerned and I say this for a number of reasons.
1) Hickman is no fool.
The fact that he admitted to having researched Priest's take on T'Challa initially gave me the confidence to stay open to seeing what special stuff he'd bring to the table and despite the deaths of the Wakandan youths that baptized NA#1 with blood, T'Challa's strong showing against Black wan and her henchmen was enough to keep me intrigued.
Where I began to become wary of what he was doing was when after having built up the whole KOTD thing in the pages of the FF set against the backdrop of some of his online commentary as to T'Challa's supposedly superhuman status, he failed to show T'Challa physically besting Black Dwarf on panel.
I found this especially annoying in light of the fact that he had no problem writing Black Dwarf's on panel demise at the hand of a Gladiator, Annihilus and Ronan (to mention a few)
2) Hickman's penchant for pulling hitherto unmentioned regions (the Necropolis) from out of nowhere to further his story whilst ignoring already established locations like T'Challa's Techno Jungle grated on me because for all intents and purposes, T'Challa's own accomplishments were now as hidden as his off panel "victory" over Black Dwarf much to T'Challa's detriment.
3) T'Challa's complete lack of tactical awareness especially as regards the imprisonment of WMD's (inanimate and animate) within the Necropolis which for someone claiming to have the protection of Wakanda and her people as one of his primary reasons for existing, struck me as being something that Maberry's T'Challa would do moreso than anything Priest or Hudlin's iteration of the character would.
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;376964]It's flat out going to be either Hickman delivers and does what he said he was setting out to do---leave T'challa in the right place and at the center of the MU or he bombs hard like Maberry. Still a long way to go. Deconstructing is fine, they are my favorite stories, because it allows a writer to refine and redefine characters. The issue with Panther is he's never really rebuilt. Priest, Hudlin, AvX, each instance for some reason the didn't get rebuild. Priest it was cancellation, Hudlin it was rebooting with Shuri, Hudlin moving on and then the Doomwar disaster. AvX was at his expense. [/QUOTE]
And what might this reason for T'Challa's continual tearing down sans rebuilding be?
Could it be along the lines of whatever reasons Kevin Feige has for continuously evading questions as to why a Black panther movie remains ever elusive
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;376964]So I get why some are wary. I just don't think Hickman is going to screw T'challa, since the story actually rides on T'challa raising to the occasion. [/QUOTE]
Hickman will not do so deliberately but his failure to really understand T'Challa and his motivations may very well lead to a Doomwar type mishap of catastrophic proportions for the BP mythos.
[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;376964]A key issue is number 24 and the time skip.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/op1wms.jpg[/IMG]
I'd like to be pleasantly suprised but I remain sceptical.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;377032]No need for you to apologize BCB. We got a good debate going on here so it's all good.
The best thing is that I'm back on the regular now.[/QUOTE]
Woooohooooo! :cool:
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[QUOTE=PSYCHIATRIST;377101]Correct bobo, I've been following NA since #1, I registered to praise the book. Then, this happened! Gaddamit! The KoTD's making his sis look like Cabal material! Bast where you at?!? Dem dead BPs just bounced on yaboy! As for the rest of the NA, good looking out Strange. About time you put the Supreme back in Sorceror! Hulk...damn brah...I can't even. Namor...keep being Namor, son! Imperius Rex! Blackbolt...dude...what happen to that voice? Wait...don't say anythin', it's coo' though.
Anyhoo, glad to see the Brotherhood (mah peeps) stayin' civil in regards to the latest BP developments. Stay creepy, brothers![/QUOTE]
Mah broda, what else can we do.
The days are dark and the shadows are long.:cool:
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;377040]It takes more guts to face death and not commit mass murder to save your own hide. I don't think that is "gangsta" at all. It's not more "gangsta" then bending his knee to Proxima who called him a dead man, just to save him own hide. There nothing gangsta about killing innocent people.[/QUOTE]
Vic, always standing his ground! East of West is da shiiiiiiiii...! Anyway, I feel you. But Namor's been through all kinds of stuff over the years and yet he stays Namor (Imperious Rex!). What about BP? Why he gotta be changing every other year? IMHO, BP been toned down too long. Brother's been gangsta all his life. It's what Wakandan Kings do...at least Priest's BP. I say, either make him grow from doing ish like this, realize this parallel world killin' ain't the way to go and do a Steve Rogers (but bounce befo' getting mindwiped and seek other means of solving this Incursion mess (dude's smart and all that) or...put him back in Hell's kitchen. But hey, we can agree to disagree, and IMHO, that's what the Brotherhood should be about.
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Both sides has good points. IMO how Hickman's run end will be the deciding point to whether we put his work up there with Priest or whether we put it near the bottom with Roy Thomas. Anyway hello my fellow creeps. :cool:
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[QUOTE=Shadey;377160]Both sides has good points. IMO how Hickman's run end will be the deciding point to wether we put his work up there with Priest or wether we put it near the bottom with Roy Thomas. Anyway hello my fellow creeps. :cool:[/QUOTE]
Welcome back Shadey. :)
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[QUOTE=PSYCHIATRIST;377146]Vic, always standing his ground! East of West is da shiiiiiiiii...! Anyway, I feel you. But Namor's been through all kinds of stuff over the years and yet he stays Namor (Imperious Rex!). What about BP? Why he gotta be changing every other year? IMHO, BP been toned down too long. Brother's been gangsta all his life. It's what Wakandan Kings do...at least Priest's BP. I say, either make him grow from doing ish like this, realize this parallel world killin' ain't the way to go and do a Steve Rogers (but bounce befo' getting mindwiped and seek other means of solving this Incursion mess (dude's smart and all that) or...put him back in Hell's kitchen. But hey, we can agree to disagree, and IMHO, that's what the Brotherhood should be about.[/QUOTE]
No doubt.
Shady said it best. It's either Hickman is going to have a Priest like impact or Roy Thomas. LMAO.
I'm sickened by the thoughts of the latter.
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;377181]No doubt.
Shady said it best. It's either Hickman is going to have a Priest like impact or Roy Thomas. LMAO.
[B]I'm sickened by the thoughts of the latter[/B].[/QUOTE]
Let the projectile vomit fly true. :)
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;377181]No doubt.
Shady said it best. It's either Hickman is going to have a Priest like impact or Roy Thomas. LMAO.
I'm sickened by the thoughts of the latter.[/QUOTE]
I don't know if it will have the impact of Priest but I definitely believe that it won't be Roy Thomas or Doomwar. That, I believe.
S' up Shadey.
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Dont think he can be as bad a Roy Thomas, that would require being a u know what
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;377181]No doubt.
Shady said it best. It's either Hickman is going to have a Priest like impact or Roy Thomas. LMAO.
I'm sickened by the thoughts of the latter.[/QUOTE]
I had chills as I was typing his name lol.
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;377040]It takes more guts to face death and not commit mass murder to save your own hide. I don't think that is "gangsta" at all. It's not more "gangsta" then bending his knee to Proxima who called him a dead man, just to save him own hide. There nothing gangsta about killing innocent people.[/QUOTE]
That actually fits the textbook definition of gangsta. See link below.
[url]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gangsta[/url]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;377193]I don't know if it will have the impact of Priest but I definitely believe that it won't be Roy Thomas or Doomwar. That, I believe.
S' up Shadey.[/QUOTE]
I think It can. Doomwar was a limited mini series, easily ignored and pushed aside. New Avengers is a twin flagship title and called the most important book at Marvel. If the doesn't come correct then Maj., Flex and co are 100% correct it will be damaging (though he will survive), like wise if the does come correct it could have a huge impact and spring him forward. Otherwise the deconstructing is senseless. When you deconstruct, the rebuilt product is what everyone is waiting for. Priest deconstructed T'challa, but he did it right and wasn't allowed to finish. He deconstructed Roy Thomas Panther, and how T'challa fit in the MU. As well as T'challa himself. So imho, Hickman's NA will good or bad define Panther for a while.
Books like Avengers, New Avenger and it's events will be readily available in any LCB, where some books you are hard pressed to find anywhere for various reasons. So yeah, I hope he nails it. If he doesn't, it will hurt the character imho. I just don't think it will happen though. Hickman is a smart guy. I think (and hope) T'challa is going to cut loose.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;377136]Mah broda, what else can we do.
The days are dark and the shadows are long.:cool:[/QUOTE]
Oga sah, before nko! Hopefully da Hickman will deliver. But my Naija 419 sneses dey tingle ooooooo....!
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[QUOTE=PSYCHIATRIST;377317]Oga sah, before nko! Hopefully da Hickman will deliver. But my Naija 419 sneses dey tingle ooooooo....![/QUOTE]
Let the tears flow!
[IMG]http://i39.tinypic.com/14xclfq.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;377281]I think It can. Doomwar was a limited mini series, easily ignored and pushed aside. New Avengers is a twin flagship title and called the most important book at Marvel. If the doesn't come correct then Maj., Flex and co are 100% correct it will be damaging (though he will survive), like wise if the does come correct it could have a huge impact and spring him forward. Otherwise the deconstructing is senseless. When you deconstruct, the rebuilt product is what everyone is waiting for. Priest deconstructed T'challa, but he did it right and wasn't allowed to finish. He deconstructed Roy Thomas Panther, and how T'challa fit in the MU. As well as T'challa himself. So imho, Hickman's NA will good or bad define Panther for a while.
Books like Avengers, New Avenger and it's events will be readily available in any LCB, where some books you are hard pressed to find anywhere for various reasons. So yeah, I hope he nails it. If he doesn't, it will hurt the character imho. I just don't think it will happen though. Hickman is a smart guy. I think (and hope) T'challa is going to cut loose.[/QUOTE]
I believe that Namor blowing up the planet will be the catalyst for the things that Hickman laid out earlier. At first, Namor was portrayed as almost sympathetic and tragic figure. Now he's the ultimate villain and becoming more of a threat to the Illuminati. So Namor's death at the hands of T'Challa is still on the table and we will have out moment that we've all been waiting for.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;377408]I believe that Namor blowing up the planet will be the catalyst for the things that Hickman laid out earlier. At first, Namor was portrayed as almost sympathetic and tragic figure. Now he's the ultimate villain and becoming more of a threat to the Illuminati. So Namor's death at the hands of T'Challa is still on the table and we will have out moment that we've all been waiting for.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, Hickman's meandering pace now has me feeling sorry for Namor's tragic ass.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;377425]Unfortunately, Hickman's meandering pace now has me feeling sorry for Namor's tragic ass.[/QUOTE]
Not me. He's had an ass-kicking coming for a long time. I like him, but he needs to have a curb-stomping like Ric Flair and the Horsemen would do.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;377481]Not me. He's had an ass-kicking coming for a long time. I like him, but he needs to have a curb-stomping like Ric Flair and the Horsemen would do.[/QUOTE]
Namor prevails by virtue of the hydration provided by T'Challa's free flowing tears.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;377502]Namor prevails by virtue of the hydration provided by T'Challa's free flowing tears.[/QUOTE]
Those same tears will be stinging Namor's salty hide as he begs T'Challa not to hit him again. Who's yo' daddy Tuna-Man?
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;377525]Those same tears will be stinging Namor's salty hide as he begs T'Challa not to hit him again. Who's yo' daddy Tuna-Man?[/QUOTE]
Unhand me catsuit wearing Crying King!!! :cool:
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;377570]Unhand me catsuit wearing Crying King!!! :cool:[/QUOTE]
"Shuri, put some grits on the stove! We're 'bout to have a fish fry!"
Tastes like chicken.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;377525]Those same tears will be stinging Namor's salty hide as he begs T'Challa not to hit him again. Who's yo' daddy Tuna-Man?[/QUOTE]
I have a feeling Namor is gonna beg for him to kill him when this is over.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;377193]I don't know if it will have the impact of Priest but I definitely believe that it won't be Roy Thomas or Doomwar. That, I believe.
S' up Shadey.[/QUOTE]
What's up Marv! I don't personally believe that Hickman won't deliver either but you never know. I have faith though.
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[QUOTE=Ikonic;375305]I don't get why people are ok with this cat-god stuff. BP ought to be a beast in his own right. This extra fluff just takes away from the character. The fact that he has to answer to such a thing down in a friggin crypt is pretty terrible. Really wish they'd get rid of that and just focus on HIS OWN abilities, skills & supporting cast. Hopefully the eventual movie will fix a lot of what's wrong with BP comic world.[/QUOTE]
I blame that on Bendis. He started the trend that Black Panther was the wise, mystical, but ultimately passive and irrelevant stock character. A [url]http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro[/url] in other words. All the things you are talking about flow off that concept.
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If I can't get a Priest BP for modern times, I'd settle for a Geoff Johns style BP in Avengers, clowning Stark, and breaking the jaws of Nazis.
As far as Namor goes, he was always a damn fool. I do miss the noble Namor that Stern wrote back in the 1980's.
Anyway, BP will either be the hero or the zero in the end of this current saga.
I get the feeling that either Rick Remender, or Jason Aaron will be writing BP next in the Avengers.
MM is right, I am so tired of this great character being torn apart. He is not Matt Murdock.
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Yeah I can see both sides of the issue but this is taking too long for the pay off.
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[QUOTE=MichaelC;377926]I blame that on Bendis. He started the trend that Black Panther was the wise, mystical, but ultimately passive and irrelevant stock character. A [url]http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro[/url] in other words. All the things you are talking about flow off that concept.[/QUOTE]
I dunno...Bendis hasn't really been a main writer at the helm of BP's direction over the last several years.
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[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;378006]If I can't get a Priest BP for modern times, I'd settle for a Geoff Johns style BP in Avengers, clowning Stark, and breaking the jaws of Nazis.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;377122]T'Challa's own accomplishments were now as hidden as his off panel "victory" over Black Dwarf much to T'Challa's detriment.[/QUOTE]
Is this the trend for BP over the last few years? Having T'Challa only have major victories off panel? I even remember my son asking me to watch a past DisneyXD episode of "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" when the Avengers were fighting the Skrulls, and BP and Wakanda beat the Skrulls right before the Avengers succeeded, but it was an off screen victory.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;378668]I dunno...Bendis hasn't really been a main writer at the helm of BP's direction over the last several years.[/QUOTE]
When has Bendis ever been a writer of BP other than AvX?
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[QUOTE=Yaw;378947]When has Bendis ever been a writer of BP other than AvX?[/QUOTE]
Just that Illuminati oneshot and the issue of Avengers where he tells Cap to recruit Storm.
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[QUOTE=Ty19;378912]Is this the trend for BP over the last few years? Having T'Challa only have major victories off panel? I even remember my son asking me to watch a past DisneyXD episode of "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" when the Avengers were fighting the Skrulls, and BP and Wakanda beat the Skrulls right before the Avengers succeeded, but it was an off screen victory.[/QUOTE]
BP, written by Geoff Johns, followed through on his threats. Geoff wrote BP the same way Priest did.
Geoff may have treated Green Lantern John Stewart like crap, and made Cyborg only human from the neck up, but he did good by Panther (and Falcon).
Pages:
[url]http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6fb4yHF4a1r228huo7_1280.jpg[/url]
[url]http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/0/7604/576793-109bu.jpg[/url]
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I wonder if we will ever see T'Challa manifest his Happy Pants persona in the future?
With all the stress he has endured in recent years, it would not surprise me.
I'm imagining a team-up with Hercules & Deadpool as I type this.
My only fear would be a lesser writer going the stereotypical route.
[img]http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130405201251/marveldatabase/images/8/84/Happy_Pants_T'Challa_(Earth-1145).jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Costello_Panther_2.jpg[/img]
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;377281]I think It can. Doomwar was a limited mini series, easily ignored and pushed aside. New Avengers is a twin flagship title and called the most important book at Marvel. If the doesn't come correct then Maj., Flex and co are 100% correct it will be damaging (though he will survive), like wise if the does come correct it could have a huge impact and spring him forward. Otherwise the deconstructing is senseless. When you deconstruct, the rebuilt product is what everyone is waiting for. Priest deconstructed T'challa, but he did it right and wasn't allowed to finish. He deconstructed Roy Thomas Panther, and how T'challa fit in the MU. As well as T'challa himself. So imho, Hickman's NA will good or bad define Panther for a while.
Books like Avengers, New Avenger and it's events will be readily available in any LCB, where some books you are hard pressed to find anywhere for various reasons. So yeah, I hope he nails it. If he doesn't, it will hurt the character imho. I just don't think it will happen though. Hickman is a smart guy. I think (and hope) T'challa is going to cut loose.[/QUOTE]
I think Hickman is more or less going to do what Bendis did at the end of HIS tenure of the Avengers-leave all the characters in more or less the same position they were in when he got there(something Bendis' haters refuse to give him credit for).
The problem with all these complaints about [B]deconstruction[/B] is that in Black Panther's case there was never an default version of the character that sold well.
Jungle Action was a product of its time and really only McGregor could ever get away with writing like that. Kirby's run died after 12 issues.
Priest's version sold badly during its tenure and the only reason it wasn't cancelled at the time was because the editors believed in it. Now, popular characters like Gambit and Cable are getting thier books axed in the first year.
Reg's version had Storm, Civil War the FF and anything else he could think of. That didn't go far enough, you ask me. I've been saying that BP should be an group book for years(with Storm's name in the title) but even if they did that they can't use Storm now(understatement).
Mayberry and Liss-neither of those guys stuff sold any better or worse than Preist's Kasper Cole era Panther stuff.
So guys who are longing for a return to the Priest era, for a return to Hudlin era minus Storm are longing for the return of something that doesn't sell.
This is the most sucessful that the character's been since Reg was writing a solo book.
At least people buy New Avengers.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;379074]I think Hickman is more or less going to do what Bendis did at the end of HIS tenure of the Avengers-leave all the characters in more or less the same position they were in when he got there(something Bendis' haters refuse to give him credit for).
The problem with all these complaints about [B]deconstruction[/B] is that in Black Panther's case there was never an default version of the character that sold well.
Jungle Action was a product of its time and really only McGregor could ever get away with writing like that. Kirby's run died after 12 issues.
Priest's version sold badly during its tenure and the only reason it wasn't cancelled at the time was because the editors believed in it. Now, popular characters like Gambit and Cable are getting thier books axed in the first year.
Reg's version had Storm, Civil War the FF and anything else he could think of. That didn't go far enough, you ask me. I've been saying that BP should be an group book for years(with Storm's name in the title) but even if they did that they can't use Storm now(understatement).
Mayberry and Liss-neither of those guys stuff sold any better or worse than Preist's Kasper Cole era Panther stuff.
So guys who are longing for a return to the Priest era, for a return to Hudlin era minus Storm are longing for the return of something that doesn't sell.
This is the most sucessful that the character's been since Reg was writing a solo book.
At least people buy New Avengers.[/QUOTE]
Geoff used the Priest version which harkens back to the original Stan & Jack version, pretty well during his run on Avengers. Geoff used the growing rivalry between T'Challa & Stark that began in Priest's BP solo run. I enjoyed their urinating matches between battles. Geoff wrote BP like Priest did, a powerful figure who is constantly underestimated. Geoff made BP mysterious, two-steps ahead, and dangerous during his run as the writer.
What many of us are wanting is to see that version of BP on the team.
I agree with you that it is best for BP to stay on a team, unless a rock star creative stays for an extended solo run.