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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;369606]
On the contrary - What's cleary in evidence here, is a man infected with the sickness of pronounced stupidity masquerading as morality.
The fact that Wakanda stood inviolate for the ten thousand years prior to T'Challa's ascendance to the throne proves that his predecessors were anything but but delusional.
If anything, T'Challa's almost slavish desire to be accepted by others beyond Wakanda's borders has proven to be a delusion that's cost's thousands of Wakandan lives repeatedly from Doomwar and AvX straight through to Infinity.
More fool him because what you refer to as "programming" is what I percieve as cultural awareness.
As portrayed now, T'Challa lacks any trace of cultural awareness where Wakandan mores are concerned and as such, cannot be seen as being worthy to be anything more than a lesser ruler following in the trace memory footsteps of actual giants.[/QUOTE]
The Skrull Empire lasted for thousands of years, but that is not a measure of its worth.
The Black Panther's past let their hand be shown quite clearly in the previous issue - let the world burn as long as Wakanda stands. If they had to blow up both Earth's they would, as long as Wakanda was left floating in space.
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[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;369680]can you explain to me what the situation is?[/QUOTE]
T'Challa makes a decision that it is immoral to kill another planet full of people to save his own world. His dead father disagrees.
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T'Challa blew up a planet already...when the crew went to Doom's place
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[QUOTE=brettc1;369725]T'Challa makes a decision that it is immoral to kill another planet full of people to save his own world. His dead father disagrees.[/QUOTE]
Then T'challa did the right thing. I am so glad he didn't listen to other Black Panthers. If Bast showed up, Bast would be happy with T'challa's decision.
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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;369654]I don't get your complaints here Maj did you want T'challa to kill billions of people? what Hickman did here was better for him as a character moving forward. This would have been another cure for cancer stain on the character if he did that.
BP is a superhero being a king is part of him but he's a superhero first I wouldn't want to see him do something like that as a fan.
I don't get this either how does Doomwar or Infinity even show this?
You could make a point with AvX but what I saw was a head of state giving Asylum to his team mates.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I'm in totally agreement. At the end of the day, that exactly what it would have been. We would have never heard the end of it. No way do I want T'challa killing billions of innocent people. In my opinion, that was the actual coward move--because it was based on nothing more than self preservation--and nothing more.
This is Marvel's version of The Kobayashi Maru from Star Trek. I rather T'challa actually beat it by not committing mass genocide. Just FYI, the test had the cadet, decide whether to attempt rescue of the crew of the Kobayashi Maru – endangering their own ship and lives and starting a intergalactic war– or leave the Kobayashi Maru to certain destruction and die preventing war. If the cadet chooses to attempt rescue, the simulation is designed to guarantee that the ship is destroyed with the loss of all crew members and a war is started because of a treaty violation. Likewise, here has the Illuminati doing something similar with a similar choice.
So the hero isn't the guy who commits genocide, but the one who is cleaver enough to defeat the no-win scenario. Personally, I rather see T'challa do that, redefining the problem and solving it--then to kill billions of innocents. T'challa is channeling Kirk's "How we face death is at least as important as how we face life."
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[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;369886]Then T'challa did the right thing. I am so glad he didn't listen to other Black Panthers. If Bast showed up, Bast would be happy with T'challa's decision.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, in FF 607 she talks about Salvation. Killing billions of innocent people would not bring that. Different characters need different things. T'challa pulling the trigger would have been the wrong move. While it might be "cool" for Namor to become a mass murderer cabal member blowing up planets and killing billions--and fans might accept it as awesome. We all know that is not the case for Panther. For me, I would not want to see him doing that.
It looked like he threw that trigger at Namor anyway. lmao.
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[QUOTE=LastManStanding;369855]T'Challa blew up a planet already...when the crew went to Doom's place[/QUOTE]
A lifeless rock. I honestly never understood all the angsting about that.
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T'Challa blew up a dead one...Namor a living...one for one
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[QUOTE=LastManStanding;369917]T'Challa blew up a dead one...Namor a living...one for one
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That's a HUGE difference.
The last scenario, had the heroes murdered [Strange did] (Sun God was a hero and that is why T'challa asked him to come back) and Namor committed Planetary Genocide.
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[QUOTE=brettc1;369913]A lifeless rock. I honestly never understood all the angsting about that.[/QUOTE]
Probably because it was the first line they crossed (using the actual bomb and seeing how it actually worked).
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;369949]Probably because it was the first line they crossed (using the actual bomb and seeing how it actually worked).[/QUOTE]
Yes, that is the only way I can explain it. "Look, it actually works." Going from the purely theoretical to the actual practical application of the device.
This is a pretty good story for T'Challa. In many ways he is the sounding board for the moral conflict within the group.
And oh the irony! T'Chaka wanted him to kill Namor, and T'Challa refused saying Namor had a part to play in the future of Wakanda. And now he is proved right, and wishes he was wrong and had killed him as his father wanted.
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Its like when they did the atom bomb test. Its one thing to know how something should work, its another thing to use it and actually see the end effect
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[QUOTE=brettc1;369966]Yes, that is the only way I can explain it. "Look, it actually works." Going from the purely theoretical to the actual practical application of the device.
This is a pretty good story for T'Challa. In many ways he is the sounding board for the moral conflict within the group.
And oh the irony! T'Chaka wanted him to kill Namor, and T'Challa refused saying Namor had a part to play in the future of Wakanda. And now he is proved right, and wishes he was wrong and had killed him as his father wanted.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I think the whole "mercy" thing is going to really play a huge role with how T'challa is changed in the future. T'chaka was right about that, but wrong about blowing up Planets. Note, T'challa is still their King. T'chaka doesn't get to make that Decision. Bast tasked him with Salvation and there would be no salvation if he pulled that trigger.
Namor pulling the trigger might work for him as a character and open up some good stories. Imho, that doesn't work for T'challa.
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;370033]Yes, I think the whole "mercy" thing is going to really play a huge role with how T'challa is changed in the future. T'chaka was right about that, but wrong about blowing up Planets. Note, T'challa is still their King. T'chaka doesn't get to make that Decision. Bast tasked him with Salvation and there would be no salvation if he pulled that trigger.
Namor pulling the trigger might work for him as a character and open up some good stories. Imho, [B]that doesn't work for T'challa.[/B][/QUOTE]
You're right.
Nothing ever works for T'Challa.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;370045]You're right.
Nothing ever works for T'Challa.[/QUOTE]
I think this will though. If he is the one who beats the no-win scenario, like Capt. Kirk. Everything points to him doing it. It's just Hickman writing it. If Hickman doesn't allow T'challa to do that--then all of this is a fail, imho. It all banks on T'challa doing that. Reed isn't, and Tony as superior doesn't make sense. Banner and Mckoy maybe, but I think it's going to be T'challa.
This would be a Reed/Doom level feat, on par with ANYTHING they have ever done and probably surpassing it. Since they didn't figure it out.
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;370067]I think this will though. If he is the one who beats the no-win scenario, like Capt. Kirk. Everything points to him doing it. It's just Hickman writing it. If Hickman doesn't allow T'challa to do that--then all of this is a fail, imho. It all banks on T'challa doing that. Reed isn't, and Tony as superior doesn't make sense. Banner and Mckoy maybe, but I think it's going to be T'challa.
This would be a Reed/Doom level feat, on par with ANYTHING they have ever done and probably surpassing it. Since they didn't figure it out.[/QUOTE]
Let's hope Hickman doesn't pull a "Maberry" then.
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[url]http://youtu.be/z4Yw3qU58w4[/url]
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;370111]Let's hope Hickman doesn't pull a "Maberry" then.[/QUOTE]
If he pulls a "Maberry" then this would be a epic fail. The only way it works, is if T'challa beats the no-win. I personally think Namor has a death flag, blowing hard in the wind. They are going to fight and the others will stop it, but I'm guessing next issue Namor either helps the cabal escape or T'challa finds out and T'chaka's words about Mercy is going to hit even harder.
I'm beating that they will steal all the planet killers too. The roster of the Illuminati looks weak compared to the cabal imho.
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[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;370126][url]http://youtu.be/z4Yw3qU58w4[/url][/QUOTE]
T'Challa is a warrior king super genius...all of his choices will be complicated...it is the nature of the beast
PS- it was a darn good film
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[QUOTE=brettc1;368970]Just want to say in the latest issue of New Avengers T'Challa proves that not only is he The Black Panther, but indeed that he is the ONLY Black Panther worthy of the title. :)[/QUOTE]
Is that why all the Black Panthers from the beginning of time disowned him? the lives of his sister and step mother not to mention the lives of his whole extended family were going to end if he didn't activate that device and turned away from that and cried.
It was not a bad comic or a badly written comic but the story ended up being far more powerful than Hickman probably intended. It will probably take a while for T'challa to move on from this as a character.
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;370146]
I'm beating that they will steal all the planet killers too. The roster of the Illuminati looks weak compared to the cabal imho.[/QUOTE]
Thanos alone would single handedly manhandle the Illuminati unless Strange goes psycho again (which seemed like somethign he could only do once).
Thanos was handling Hulk and Thor WITH EASE before Ebony Maw turned on him. He not only survived multiple Black Bolt screams to the face, but walked through them and beat the living **** out of him.
A team of useless in a fight Reed, Stark with no working suit, Beast, T'challa, BB, Strange, and Hulk is going to get slaughtered. My only wander is how the Illuminati get out of there alive to be honest. Does the Inhuman Dog teleport them away or what?
Thanos, Proxima, Corvus, Terrax, Namor, Swan, and Maximus. The only thing saving the Illuminati will be mercy or PIS.
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[QUOTE=Zuri;370264]Is that why all the Black Panthers from the beginning of time disowned him? the lives of his sister and step mother not to mention the lives of his whole extended family were going to end if he didn't activate that device and turned away from that and cried.
It was not a bad comic or a badly written comic but the story ended up being far more powerful than Hickman probably intended. It will probably take a while for T'challa to move on from this as a character.[/QUOTE]
Move on from what exactly?
He refused to murder billions he has nothing to move on from if he did it that's when he would have something to actually move on from.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;370274]Thanos alone would single handedly manhandle the Illuminati unless Strange goes psycho again (which seemed like somethign he could only do once).
Thanos was handling Hulk and Thor WITH EASE before Ebony Maw turned on him. He not only survived multiple Black Bolt screams to the face, but walked through them and beat the living **** out of him.
A team of useless in a fight Reed, Stark with no working suit, Beast, T'challa, BB, Strange, and Hulk is going to get slaughtered. My only wander is how the Illuminati get out of there alive to be honest. Does the Inhuman Dog teleport them away or what?
Thanos, Proxima, Corvus, Terrax, Namor, Swan, and Maximus. The only thing saving the Illuminati will be mercy or PIS.[/QUOTE]
It would literally take Hickman's Avengers' line-up plus the Mighty Avengers to beat the Cabal.
The Illuminati's gonna have to port, and I hate to say it, but unless they just stick to Necropolis, Wakanda is screwed.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;370274]Thanos alone would single handedly manhandle the Illuminati unless Strange goes psycho again (which seemed like somethign he could only do once).
Thanos was handling Hulk and Thor WITH EASE before Ebony Maw turned on him. He not only survived multiple Black Bolt screams to the face, but walked through them and beat the living **** out of him.
A team of useless in a fight Reed, Stark with no working suit, Beast, T'challa, BB, Strange, and Hulk is going to get slaughtered. My only wander is how the Illuminati get out of there alive to be honest. Does the Inhuman Dog teleport them away or what?
Thanos, Proxima, Corvus, Terrax, Namor, Swan, and Maximus. The only thing saving the Illuminati will be mercy or PIS.[/QUOTE]
T'challa beat Swan, he can beat Namor and I'm sure he could also take on both Proxima and Corvus. Same with Black Bolt. The Hulk lost, but that doesn't mean he would lose again. Captain Britain can also take on most. Maximus TP will not work on T'challa.
Thanos is the real problem. They have no answer. Sun God could have been the answer. If that explosion was anything like Dark Knight returns, with Superman sucking up energy. He might not have perished.
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I feel sorry for T'challa right now.
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[QUOTE=DebkoX;370354]I feel sorry for T'challa right now.[/QUOTE]
This is probably part of the point. It's "Marvel style" to the fullest. A hero is only great in how they are written to persevere the face of a crisis and also still maintain their honor. It seems like part of it is to drag out feelings like this for the character, then have it help create new tales. T'challa should struggle with crossing the line and mercy moving forward.
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;370345]T'challa beat Swan, he can beat Namor and I'm sure he could also take on both Proxima and Corvus. Same with Black Bolt. The Hulk lost, but that doesn't mean he would lose again. Captain Britain can also take on most. Maximus TP will not work on T'challa.
Thanos is the real problem. They have no answer. Sun God could have been the answer. If that explosion was anything like Dark Knight returns, with Superman sucking up energy. He might not have perished.[/QUOTE]
They seemed to struggle a good amount just with Terrax earlier though...
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Proxy and Corvus are beasts.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;370693]They seemed to struggle a good amount just with Terrax earlier though...[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but you can't base anything off one fight, Right? You can lose on any day and also beat someone on any day. You can defeat someone who is stronger. It happens, things like environment and other circumstances often get ignored. Rumbles logic will not apply here. So while I agree that they struggled, that doesn't mean they will the next time.
Though, the Cabal are vastly more powerful to me. I have have been saying that for a while. Like the NA just look weak in comparison. They need to get rid of Beast. Add Hyperion, Val, Blue Marvel and Future Franklin or something. Even Odinson Thor, but the current roster is weak.
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[QUOTE=Zuri;370264]Is that why all the Black Panthers from the beginning of time disowned him? the lives of his sister and step mother not to mention the lives of his whole extended family were going to end if he didn't activate that device and turned away from that and cried.
It was not a bad comic or a badly written comic but the story ended up being far more powerful than Hickman probably intended. It will probably take a while for T'challa to move on from this as a character.[/QUOTE]
I hope he never does.
The fact all the other kings disowned him is to their shame, not his. They flat out say that every other human being should be sacrificed if it means saving their country.
Everybody on the other Earth also had loved ones. T'Challa's actions might make no logical sense but logic is not what heroism is necessarily about.
Logically, the Black Panther should never put his life in jeopardy for a single ordinary person - he is too valuable. Heroes don't see the world that way. It's no logical, but do we really want a guy who calls himself the Black Panther and sees the world like Dr Doom.
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[QUOTE=brettc1;370885]I hope he never does.
The fact all the other kings disowned him is to their shame, not his. They flat out say that every other human being should be sacrificed if it means saving their country.
Everybody on the other Earth also had loved ones. T'Challa's actions might make no logical sense but logic is not what heroism is necessarily about.
Logically, the Black Panther should never put his life in jeopardy for a single ordinary person - he is too valuable. Heroes don't see the world that way. It's no logical, but do we really want a guy who calls himself the Black Panther and sees the world like Dr Doom.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, his struggle is not becoming Doom. If he crosses that line. At the end of the day, the stuff that might "seem cool" and tough really isn't.
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This has been an interesting debate. It seems that Hickman is doing a number of things with T'Challa. First of all Hickman continues to decontruct T'Challa with his involvment with the illuminati. T'Challa's decisions have cost him his contry, his family and now his ancestors. Hickman continues to strip more and more from him.
In those posted pages, Hickman also displayed something else. He showed what T'Challa was first and foremost in those pages: A Hero. All of the other heroes outright refused to pull the trigger. T'Challa has always been defined as a King first and then a hero. He was a man that would make Kingly decisions that would go directly against that a "super hero" would make. T'Challa believed he could pull the trigger. He did so on a dead planet with regret. But to kill a planet full of life, he and all the other heroes said, "No." Namor is not a classic hero. In fact he has been a villain so he was able to pull the trigger. Hickman said in those pages that now T'Challa is a hero.
Now the question is since Hickman has been decontructing T'Challa and some of the other illuminati, how will he reconstuct T'Challa? (Even though I still do no see any major sacrifice Reed, Tony, or Hank have made thus far. But they are also characters featured in other books.)
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[QUOTE=taozen;371047]This has been an interesting debate. It seems that Hickman is doing a number of things with T'Challa. First of all Hickman continues to decontruct T'Challa with his involvment with the illuminati. T'Challa's decisions have cost him his contry, his family and now his ancestors. Hickman continues to strip more and more from him.
In those posted pages, Hickman also displayed something else. He showed what T'Challa was first and foremost in those pages: A Hero. All of the other heroes outright refused to pull the trigger. T'Challa has always been defined as a King first and then a hero. He was a man that would make Kingly decisions that would go directly against that a "super hero" would make. T'Challa believed he could pull the trigger. He did so on a dead planet with regret. But to kill a planet full of life, he and all the other heroes said, "No." Namor is not a classic hero. In fact he has been a villain so he was able to pull the trigger. Hickman said in those pages that now T'Challa is a hero.
Now the question is since Hickman has been decontructing T'Challa and some of the other illuminati, how will he reconstuct T'Challa? (Even though I still do no see any major sacrifice Reed, Tony, or Hank have made thus far. But they are also characters featured in other books.)[/QUOTE]
Excellent summation. I think that T'challa finds a way to be the "no-win scenario". If there is any one who is a lateral thinker--a original thinker, it's T'challa. Reed is going to lose his intellect, Tony is going to become Iron-Jerk. I think it's all pointing to T'challa. This feat would be pretty big. Otherwise it will fall flat.
I would also like to see T'challa struggle with the whole mercy thing. Will he cross that line? He's going to flip once he find out what Namor did and remember his father (who he looks up to more then anything) words haunt him.
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[QUOTE=Victor Freeman;369903]Exactly, in FF 607 she talks about Salvation. Killing billions of innocent people would not bring that. Different characters need different things. T'challa pulling the trigger would have been the wrong move. While it might be "cool" for Namor to become a mass murderer cabal member blowing up planets and killing billions--and fans might accept it as awesome. We all know that is not the case for Panther. For me, I would not want to see him doing that.
It looked like he threw that trigger at Namor anyway. lmao.[/QUOTE]
Killing billions of people is not awesome. I dont want T'challa tagged as the superhero who killed billions of people. it doesnt sound heroic at all, but a killer, a mass murderer.
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[QUOTE=DebkoX;370354]I feel sorry for T'challa right now.[/QUOTE]
Why do you feel sorry for him?
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[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;371117]Killing billions of people is not awesome. I dont want T'challa tagged as the superhero who killed billions of people. it doesnt sound heroic at all, but a killer, a mass murderer.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that Namor is a mass muderer? :confused:
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[QUOTE=brettc1;370885]I hope he never does.[/QUOTE]
Yes, we could all do with more scenes of T'Challa, the crying King of the Dead.
[QUOTE=brettc1;370885]The fact all the other kings disowned him is to their shame, not his. They flat out say that every other human being should be sacrificed if it means saving their country.[/QUOTE]
If the former Kings of Wakanda had been as indecisive and wishy washy as T'Challa has been post Doomwar, he wouldn't have had a kingdom to inherit in the first place and as far as "every other human being sacrificed as long as Wakanda prevailed, isn't that Namor did in the first instance by aiming Proxima Midnight and Thanos's entire forces straight at Wakanda and now in the second instance by annihilating the Great Society's home planet?
Wakanda's previous Kings did their duty with diligence which is more than can be said for T'Challa who in recent times abandoned his people to go "find himself" in Matt Murdoch's Hell's Kitchen, given succour to the Avengers during AvX which led to this....
[IMG]http://i62.tinypic.com/35lhtdy.jpg[/IMG]
before moving on to turn the Necropolis into a virtual menagerie of mayhem......
[IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/14nicf8.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=brettc1;370885]Everybody on the other Earth also had loved ones. T'Challa's actions might make no logical sense but logic is not what heroism is necessarily about.[/QUOTE]
T'Challa written in character would not have jeapordised his people in the first place by keeping the threat of the Incursions from his sister in the first place and this for me, is where all this T'Challa is heroically stoic and human stuff falls apart at the seams for me.
Black Bolt brought Maximus into the Illuminati equation and Bruce Banner has now been inducted to the same august body so as far as I'm concerned there's no acceptable reason for Shuri to be kept in the dark as to what's happening underneath her very nose.
It has not yet been revealed whether T'Challa has actually alerted the parents of the three young Wakandan's slaughtered by Black Swan's hench men as to their childrens deaths so to be quite frank, I don't see T'Challa as being particularly heroic at this juncture.
[QUOTE=brettc1;370885]Logically, the Black Panther should never put his life in jeopardy for a single ordinary person - he is too valuable. [/QUOTE]
It's a good thing that at least one Black Panther has no problem putting her life on the line for her people (ordinary or otherwise)
[IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/10shxsn.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=brettc1;370885]Heroes don't see the world that way. It's no logical, but do we really want a guy who calls himself the Black Panther and sees the world like Dr Doom.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that Namor see's the world the same way Doom does?
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From the onset, it has been established that Tchalla is going down a road that he doesn't want to. It's not a matter of trust, it's an act of love that he doesn't want Shuri losing her soul in this endeavor.
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;371299]From the onset, it has been established that Tchalla is going down a road that he doesn't want to. It's not a matter of trust, it's an act of love that he doesn't want Shuri losing her soul in this endeavor.[/QUOTE]
What difference will safeguarding Shuri's soul do if T'Challa's folly in having all of these monsters on Wakandan soil.....
[IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/29cordg.jpg[/IMG]
leads to her body being shattered and even more Wakandan lives lost?
[IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/scu99s.jpg[/IMG]
I think not indeed.