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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860663]Just wow. wow.
So a character is still a hero if he kills thousands but saves billions while killing billions?
A nation of mer-men?[/QUOTE]
Whether or not a person is a hero for saving 2 entire universes at the cost of billions of lives is debatable. But given that the billions who die would die either way I'd argue the vast net gain in lives sparred more than justifies it. Even purely from a Wakandan perspective more are alive now than had Namor done nothing.
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[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;860622]What was the population of Wakanda before it happened?[/QUOTE]
According to Marvel Saga the population of Wakanda was 6 million...
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[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;860606]Oh ok! The previous poster only stated Namor attacked Wakanda. I didn't know thousands of his people were killed. Sorry. :([/QUOTE]
I am so confused. You come in a BP appreciation thread... without reading any of the comics BP has appeared in the last 3+ years?
What are you basing any of your opinions on?
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;860752]I am so confused. You come in a BP appreciation thread... without reading any of the comics BP has appeared in the last 3+ years?
What are you basing any of your opinions on?[/QUOTE]
I have a few BP books. The ones with Storm.
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[QUOTE=XPac;860690]Whether or not a person is a hero for saving 2 entire universes at the cost of billions of lives is debatable. But given that the billions who die would die either way I'd argue the vast net gain in lives sparred more than justifies it. Even purely from a Wakandan perspective more are alive now than had Namor done nothing.[/QUOTE]
I not sure that this is strictly true. We as readers where never allowed to see what potentially could have happened, because Namor robbed the others of that choice by attacking the great society and then used the bomb to destroy their world.
He then freed the cabal, because he lacked the strength to continue alone and killed billions of people on other alternate earths, which hasn’t done anything, but accelerate the very real ending of the marvel universe.
Recognising the error of his ways he then tried to forge an alliance with Doom, who brushed him off as weak; and out of final desperation went back to the illuminati who hadn’t forgotten his treachery. Namor has always been impulsive and quick to anger. It was these faults that caused his eventual downfall. T’challa hadn’t once hid his intentions to kill him, he told him directly to his face. unfortunately for Namor he also kept his word.
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[QUOTE=TheCat;860702]According to Marvel Saga the population of Wakanda was 6 million...[/QUOTE]
So Namor killed how many?
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860663]Just wow. wow.
So a character is still a hero if he kills thousands but saves billions while killing billions?[/QUOTE]
Imho he stopped being a hero a loooooooong time ago.
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860771]So Namor killed how many?[/QUOTE]
A few thousand probably.
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[QUOTE=TheCat;860766]I not sure that this is strictly true. We as readers where never allowed to see what potentially could have happened, because Namor robbed the others of that choice by attacking the great society and then used the bomb to destroy their world.
He then freed the cabal, because he lacked the strength to continue alone and killed billions of people on other alternate earths, which hasn’t done anything, but accelerate the very real ending of the marvel universe.
Recognising the error of his ways he then tried to forge an alliance with Doom, who brushed him off as weak; and out of final desperation went back to the illuminati who hadn’t forgotten his treachery. Namor has always been impulsive and quick to anger. It was these faults that caused his eventual downfall. T’challa hadn’t once hid his intentions to kill him, he told him directly to his face. unfortunately for Namor he also kept his word.[/QUOTE]
I'd argue Namors actions have done quite a bit... they have bought them time. And if that's the best they can do at the given time, then that's what they needed to do. If having they all die from an incursion would somehow lead to a better end result, I'm not seeing any indication of that at this time.
There was no "better" option on the table and the Illuminati had decided to just lie down and die.... so Namor took the only option available and did the best he could with it. And because he did what he did, everyone else is alive and able to at least try and come up with something better. But they're only able to do that because Namor and the Cabal have been holding the line up to this point.
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860771]So Namor killed how many?[/QUOTE]
In AVX he attacked the capital city with a tidal wave. As readers we were never given the number of casualties but I would think it would be high. In New Avengers his actions led to the destruction. Again we are not told the figures. but it is clear he took part in the carnage and enjoyed it. The suggestion is that only a handful survived. But i think that there was some mistakes written in this issue. Anyone who has read several series of BP knows that Wakanda is a country and not just a city.
In Issue 24 page 20 it says:
The fallen city of Wakanda.
Population 1,309
The Capital City was destroyed, but a lot of people could still be living in the countryside.
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[QUOTE=XPac;860801]I'd argue Namors actions have done quite a bit... they have bought them time. And if that's the best they can do at the given time, then that's what they needed to do. If having they all die from an incursion would somehow lead to a better end result, I'm not seeing any indication of that at this time.
There was no "better" option on the table and the Illuminati had decided to just lie down and die.... so Namor took the only option available and did the best he could with it. And because he did what he did, everyone else is alive and able to at least try and come up with something better. But they're only able to do that because Namor and the Cabal have been holding the line up to this point.[/QUOTE]
Again, as it stands the MU is in a worse position. After all the killing they have done, they are no closer to finding even a remote solution to the problem, and as Namor suggested to Doom in issue 24, the cabal had begun to enjoy killing weaker opponents without threatening any of the big boys (cosmic threats) i.e. the ivory kings, the black priests, etc, etc... But i suppose we can agree to disagree.
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[QUOTE=TheCat;860851]Again, as it stands the MU is in a worse position. After all the killing they have done, they are no closer to finding even a remote solution to the problem, and as Namor suggested to Doom in issue 24, the cabal had begun to enjoy killing weaker opponents without threatening any of the big boys (cosmic threats) i.e. the ivory kings, the black priests, etc, etc... But i suppose we can agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty skeptical they'd be in a better position of findling a solution if they were all dead, so overall I'll argue at this point they're all better off because of what Namor did. If there's any chance at all at finding a solution, it'll be because Namor bought them the time to do it.
So yeah... if you believe they'd be better off dead we'll agree to disagree. Because right now that's that's the choice... Namors way or being dead.
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[QUOTE=XPac;860860]I'm pretty skeptical they'd be in a better position of findling a solution if they were all dead, so overall I'll argue at this point they're all better off because of what Namor did. If there's any chance at all at finding a solution, it'll be because Namor bought them the time to do it.
So yeah... if you believe they'd be better off dead we'll agree to disagree. Because right now that's that's the choice... Namors way or being dead.[/QUOTE]
Actually Namor hasn't saved much, the incursion are still ongoing and universes are still in danger. At best he hit the pause button.
T'challa is equally a hero he destroyed a world or two also--he just happened to throw his rival and Cabal on a detonated world.
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860869]Actually Namor hasn't saved much, the incursion are still ongoing and universes are still in danger. At best he hit the pause button.
The one who actually stops the incursions will be the hero--not the slaughterer of worlds who buys time.[/QUOTE]
Except that, again, nobody would be alive to stop the incursions had Namor not done what he did. So, even if Namor isn't the one to figure out how to stop it, he was absolutely essential to finding the solution.
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860869]Actually Namor hasn't saved much, the incursion are still ongoing and universes are still in danger. At best he hit the pause button.
The one who actually stops the incursions will be the hero--not the slaughterer of worlds who buys time.[/QUOTE]
If the one that stops the incursions could only do it because Namor was able to buy them the time to do it, then Namor and frankly the Cabal as a whole gets a good deal of the credit as well. Because dead people don't stop incursions... being not dead is likely a key element in being able to do it.
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There's no denying the Cabal served it's purpose. It was by no means heroic but they became the villains needed to keep the others from pushing the button. We can despise their actions and we should but for the purpose of the story, they kept the universe alive.
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[QUOTE=Emma's Midriff;860873]Except that, again, nobody would be alive to stop the incursions had Namor not done what he did. So, even if Namor isn't the one to figure out how to stop it, he was absolutely essential to finding the solution.[/QUOTE]
But T'challa detonated the first Bomb and help craft them. Namor lives because of T'challa.
So..
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860892]But T'challa detonated the first Bomb and help craft them. namor lives because of T'challa.
So without him...Namor wouldnt have been alive to continue...[/QUOTE]
Well, there's that too. Sounds like they needed each other.
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860892]But T'challa detonated the first Bomb and help craft them. Namor lives because of T'challa.
So..[/QUOTE]
And it's fine to give T'Challa credit for that.
But it doesn't take away the fact that they'd all be dead if not for Namor. It's not enough to stop ONE incursion... until they find an actual solution they need to stop all of them and I'll happily give credit to any and all that are able to do that from T'Challa to Namor to Thanos. They're all doing their part.
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[QUOTE=XPac;860899]And it's fine to give T'Challa credit for that.
But it doesn't take away the fact that they'd all be dead if not for Namor. It's not enough to stop ONE incursion... until they find an actual solution they need to stop all of them and I'll happily give credit to any and all that are able to do that from T'Challa to Namor to Thanos. They're all doing their part.[/QUOTE]
But Namor wouldnt be alive to do what he did without T'challa saving his life in the first place.
Black Panther saved the universe first!
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860902]But Namor wouldnt be alive to do what he did without T'challa saving his life in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Realistically if T'Challa didn't do it I'm fairly certain Namor himself or any of the rest would have, so it's not QUITE the same thing.
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[QUOTE=XPac;860903]Realistically if T'Challa didn't do it I'm fairly certain Namor himself or any of the rest would have, so it's not QUITE the same thing.[/QUOTE]
Well same for Namor..if he didn't detonate the bomb Im sure someone else would have.
But thank goodness t'challa detonated it [B]first[/B] saving Namor to do what he did.
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860929]Well same for Namor..if he didn't detonate the bomb Im sure someone else would have.
But thank goodness t'challa detonated it [B]first[/B] saving Namor to do what he did.[/QUOTE]
The reason Namor detonated the bomb is PRECISELY because none of the others were willing to do it. He had to because he was the only one that could.
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[QUOTE=XPac;860934]The reason Namor detonated the bomb is PRECISELY because none of the others were willing to do it. He had to because he was the only one that could.[/QUOTE]
T'challa detonated it first because no one else would or they would have. Just because Namor said no one else would have..doesnt it make it so...
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860941]T'challa detonated it first because no one else would or they would have.[/QUOTE]
Honestly I think ANY of them would have. That was blowing up a dead world... the Illuminati were tossed a soft ball.
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[QUOTE=XPac;860946]Honestly I think ANY of them would have. That was blowing up a dead world... the Illuminati were tossed a soft ball.[/QUOTE]
But they didnt. T'challa did--so namor owes his life to him. Its clearly on page.
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860954]But they didnt. T'challa did--so namor owes his life to him. Its clearly on page.[/QUOTE]
I'm willing to give him credit for doing it. I just don't think the situations are quite as comparable because IMO at least any of them would have if he didn't.
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[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;859866]I can see Xpac's point though about it being an assassination. Not that it is the same situation but Salman Rushdie has had a death sentence passed on him for a long time for his writings. Certain parties would be happy to seen just about anyone kill him at anytime. If that were to occur I would call it an assassination even though Rushdie knows it could come at anytime.
I think there is no two ways around the fact that Namor did have an epiphany about the course he had taken. He knew that this was the last act of a free man. We don't don't exactly what Steve had in mind or if they were talking about some kind of MU equivalent of the International Court of Justice. IMO it was a sneaky way for T'Challa to fulfill his vow and sabotage the plan. For me the scene on the platform would have played out better had he challenged Namor to a final fight to settle the score right up front. Maybe you could fault Reed for not telling T'Challa about Namor coming into the fold again but I think he should have given things a chance.[/QUOTE]
I somehow very much doubt that someone whose homeland had been decimated three times over by the same individual (directly or otherwise) would be inclined to engage in gentlemanly fisticufs and associated niceties before killing them.
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[QUOTE=XPac;860961]I'm willing to give him credit for doing it. I just don't think the situations are quite as comparable because IMO at least any of them would have if he didn't.[/QUOTE]
No Harm...No Foul. Agree to Disagree. :shakes hands:
[IMG]http://media.giphy.com/media/GOsP4YctCFRjq/giphy.gif[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860975]No Harm...No Foul. Agree to Disagree. :shakes hands:
[IMG]http://media.giphy.com/media/GOsP4YctCFRjq/giphy.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Like I said, I am more than willing to give credit to both. I'll give credit to anyone who stopped an incursion, because they are buying everyone else time to find an actual solution.
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[QUOTE=Emma's Midriff;860409]Seemingly. Chances are Namor is fine.[/QUOTE]
Welcome to the BP Appreciation thread Emma's Midriff. :)
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;860973]I somehow very much doubt that someone whose homeland had been decimated three times over by the same individual (directly or otherwise) would be inclined to engage in gentlemanly fisticufs and associated niceties before killing them.[/QUOTE]
I would think so.
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;860661]Well there was due process. T'challa just didnt decide I'll kill him.. There were moments of deliberation. He even pleaded with his sister, Shuri to not engage in Warfare with Atlantis. Then Namor lied to Thanos' legion and had his forces attack Wakanda again. Again T'challa was hesitant. His Ancestors asked why he waited.
So to call it an Assassination is not paying attention to the events that led up to New Avengers #40./[/QUOTE]
Hmmmm, I completely forgot about all of this.
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[QUOTE=XPac;860860]I'm pretty skeptical they'd be in a better position of findling a solution if they were all dead, so overall I'll argue at this point they're all better off because of what Namor did. If there's any chance at all at finding a solution, it'll be because Namor bought them the time to do it.
So yeah... if you believe they'd be better off dead we'll agree to disagree. Because right now that's that's the choice... Namors way or being dead.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but I don't believe that those were the only ones on offer and I did write my opinion of this in an earlier post. Imho Namor's isn't a hero. Namor is as doom described him, a failure (issue 24) when he tried to charm his way out of his current tortuous situation by creating an alliance with him. but hey, not every one can be the hero can they... :) I'm sure he will be back in the MU soon.
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[QUOTE=TheCat;861022]I'm sorry, but I don't believe that those were the only ones on offer and I did write my opinion of this in an earlier post. Imho Namor's isn't a hero. Namor is as doom described him, a failure (issue 24) when he tried to charm his way out of his current tortuous situation by creating an alliance with him. but hey, not every one can be the hero can they... :) I'm sure he will be back in the MU soon.[/QUOTE]
Whether or not he's a hero is a very very subjective thing. But really that's just a label. What isn't subjective is the fact that he saved the universe from destruction multiple times. Call him what you want, but he was needed. Simple as that.
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[QUOTE=XPac;860961]I'm willing to give him credit for doing it. I just don't think the situations are quite as comparable because IMO at least any of them would have if he didn't.[/QUOTE]
But they didn't so whatever point you're trying to make is moot.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;861068]But they didn't so whatever point you're trying to make is moot.[/QUOTE]
Well its comes down to perceptions of power. Doesnt it?
When T'challa achieves anything ( Build and detonate World-busters), for some readers--they feel like..anybody could have done the same.
When Namor does it..it is because no one else had the stones too. Of course other character built the bombs and even came up with the strategy..but somehow
Namor gets all the credit when things go well and none of the blame when things go wrong.
I think its the psychological defense of the Anti-hero. if you like your heroes with limited heroic tendencies anything they do heroic is Ultra-Heroic. And when they act evilly its--hey they aren't necessarily heroic.
Its why I am not enamored (no pun intended) with Anti-heroes. They are kind of cheat characters.
Its harder to be Moral despite circumstances than it is to be moral when it suits you.
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;861093]Well its comes down to perceptions of power. Doesnt it?
When T'challa does it..anybody could have. When Namor does it..isn't because no one else had the stones too. Of course other character built the bombs and even came up with the strategy..but somehow
Namor gets all the credit when things go well and none of the blame when things go wrong.
I think its the psychologocial defense of the Anti-hero. if you like your heroes with limited heroic tendencies anything they do heroic is Ultra-Heroic. And when they act evilly its--hey they aren't necessarily heroic.
Its why I am not enamored (no pun intended) with Anti-heroes. They are kind of cheat characters.
Its harder to be Moral despite circumstances than it is to be moral when it suits you.[/QUOTE]
It's not a matter of perception in the case of Namor detonating the bomb because the other characters flat out said they weren't going to detonate it.
It's possible that Reed, Beast, Black Bolt, and Iron Man couldn't detonate the bombs in EITHER scenario. But I at least would assume that if Namor can detonate the bomb on an inhabited planet, he can do it on a dead world. Is there a reason I shouldn't assume he could detonate the bomb in the Latverian incursion, apart from the fact that he didn't?
But for the record I did say MULTIPLE times that I'm willing to give all of the above credit. Not just Namor. I'll give him the lions share in the incursions where he pulled the trigger because no one else did... but all the Illuminati get both credit and blame for that. They have blood on their hands too... and they know it.
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[QUOTE=XPac;861108]It's not a matter of perception in the case of Namor detonating the bomb because the other characters flat out said they weren't going to detonate it.
It's possible that Reed, Beast, Black Bolt, and Iron Man couldn't detonate the bombs in EITHER scenario. But I at least would assume that if Namor can detonate the bomb on an inhabited planet, he can do it on a dead world. Is there a reason I shouldn't assume he could detonate the bomb in the Latverian incursion, apart from the fact that he didn't?
But for the record I did say MULTIPLE times that I'm willing to give all of the above credit. Not just Namor. I'll give him the lions share in the incursions where he pulled the trigger because no one else did... but all the Illuminati get both credit and blame for that. They have blood on their hands too... and they know it.[/QUOTE]
Namor frustrates me as a character, because he desires other Men's wives and girlfriends, attacked the surface world multiple times, killed millions. Killed Earths to stave off a universe ending event. brag about the people he killed. And I just can't find it in me to like that.
Part of me feels like if his Atlantis was on an Incursion planet--he would not be saving the 616 Earth. But that is my personal opinion.
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[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;861128]Namor frustrates me as a character, because he desires other Men's wives and girlfriends, attacked the surface world multiple times, killed millions. Killed Earths to stave off a universe ending event. brag about the people he killed. And I just can't find it in me to like that.
Part of me feels like if his Atlantis was on an Incursion planet--he would not be saving the 616 Earth. But that is my personal opinion.[/QUOTE]
Considering that Atlantis IS on earth and gets destroyed either way, there's a descent chance he might wanna save 616 earth. There's literally nothing gained by not saving it.