-
[QUOTE=Vic Vega;79189]Flex, more Wakanda and Jabari the Brave won't get a B.P book more readership.
Wakanda and Jabari the Brave didn't get Reg his sales numbers.
Storm, Civil War and Dark Reign did.
When Reg's B.P went back to Africa the sales took a nosedive. Learn from Geoff Johns Aquaman who had to be dragged kicking and screaming in story to Altantis because Geoff Johns knew damn well he couldn't sell the concept.
And if Geoff Johns can't sell something, that is a hint and a half that it probably can't be sold in this market at all.
The guy turned Hal Jordan into a moneymaker, for God's sake.
Dude's practically a miracle worker.[/QUOTE]
Didn't the the story that turned Hudlins run from an out of continuity miniseries into an in continuity run was about Wakanda being isolationist? but like all comic heroes T'Challa need and his sister need to interact with other heroes and have varying adventures in different places Isolationist Wakanda isn't a stumbling block to that. But they both need their point or origin to ground them as characters, which is an isolationist and mysterious Wakanda.
-
[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;79105]I would like to point out that every time Wakanda opens it's borders things like Doomwar and Hell's Kitchen happen!
The way Priest did things was better and now that Disney money is in the picture it would be best to see how that works with billions of dollars backing it now instead of no money backing it then!
There is nothing wrong with returning to the dry well once it has been filled back up to the brim with more water... All Marvel character return time and again to the old tried and true formulas in comics, cartoons and cinema!
Isolation and xenophobia gives Wakanda it's identity, character and an edge... If it's open to everyone it becomes the Disneyland of the Marvel universe which loses it's overall mystery and hidden wonders!
Rogues Gallery beats Ensemble casts each and every time... Hanging with Emma is cool for now but at some point you have to sell toys in your own franchise to proof your franchise's intellectual property value is truly up!
This guy should have his image and likeness on a Reverend Achebe toy ASAP... "Look at me... Look at me... I'm the captain now!"
And let's get started on this Killmonger toy like right now... I want a matching statue for one of my Black Panther statues!
I have already cast Majestic as Moses Magnum... (See Post Pics of Yourself Thread) :cool:[/QUOTE]
totally agree, you dont want to loose that baseline beat of wakanda's isolationism.... its sense of entitlement and superiority. the golden city!!!
but at the same time.... daddy issues being what they are. part of any good sons journey in his fathers shoes is knowing when to hold onto tradition and when to strike out on your own path
-
[QUOTE=Double 0;79269]I really hate the idea that stories set in Africa with Africans is unmarketable. I mean, I know comic book fans can be xenophobic, but that's just incredibly messed up.
They can be, but as you brought up, you need to make sure what happens there has consequences within the rest of the Marvel Universe as well.[/QUOTE]
And as i always say....Nobody says that sort of thing about comics based in space, Asgard, and other locations.
-
[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;79296]And as i always say....Nobody says that sort of thing about comics based in space, Asgard, and other locations.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, they do say it when it comes to Canada or UK, judging by the sales of most of the Alpha Flight and Captain Britain/Excalibur stuff.
-
[QUOTE=Double 0;79269]I really hate the idea that stories set in Africa with Africans is unmarketable. I mean, I know comic book fans can be xenophobic, but that's just incredibly messed up.
They can be, but as you brought up, you need to make sure what happens there has consequences within the rest of the Marvel Universe as well.[/QUOTE]
If it makes you feel any better, stories set in the U.K. are just as unmarketable.
Sales of Revolutionary War were horrific and Marvel gave up on
Alpha Flight after the first arc.
P.S. You beat me to it.
-
Vic Vega I feel what you are saying but you have to remember that Black Panther never had the movie buzz that it has today nor the exceptional Hatorade shade thrown it's way which means that it is more ripe for bigger things than it ever has been in years!
Think of it like the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe getting swept out of the playoffs repeatedly and then Phil Jackson comes in with the exact same roster and tweaks things just a little bit and they set a record one playoff loss on their way to sweeping everybody else for the championship!
Hudlin and Priest exposed what potential the character had even under circumstances regularly blocked the success... I don't think those same things happen if the right "Point Man" is put in play to grab hold of what works while discarding what didn't!
Also there still is not the baseball card definitive listing of what his true powers and skill sets are... This is key in comics you can't just claim something for him by default it has to be listed and on record or shown on panel what the heart shaped herb is or what King of The Dead really means period!
Waiting 18 issues to "sort of" explain the King of The Dead powers when Spiderman gets bitten day one by a radioactive spider and then goes and explores his new powers through trial and error right off the bat... 18 issues???
There are core mistakes by each writer as well as core successes by each writer that need to be capitalized on properly!
Take Priest, Hudlin, Liss, Lee, Hickman, Mcgregor, Johns and even Maberry and then Phil Jackson what needs to be Phil Jacksoned' to a better degree not just say "hey this team can't win no matter what" and accept that as canon and try another extreme!
Doomwar had a terrible ending but Shadow Physics as a concept is priced to sell under the right writer and should be canon and on Black Panther's baseball card so that those who cosplay as him have their rescuing device to defeat all would be foes!
The rumbles threads are a great example because comic books always boil down to head to head fights and the reasons for why one character is voted over another character... Just because you don't frequent those rumbles threads does not mean that these things do no matter because they do in super hero comics!
You don't throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak... Put your Phil Jackson Zen cap on and tweak that roster (Rogues Gallery) until you get it right and stop chickening out trying to piggyback Black Panther with other popular ensemble characters just to sell him!
There's millions of other potential fans out there that could easily jump on this bandwagon when this character is really priced to sell but you also need to know when there is too much world building and over crowding of characters that stifle the main character's growth... Rogues Galleries always grow the character in comics while family members often stifle the growth when you have to account for them and suck up panel space as their expense!
Would you rather have Black Panther talking to Shuri on the movie screen or that guy from Captain Philips while taking over your country... Fans of James Bond already know the answer to that question it's a no brainer especially for actors who want more drama to challenge their skills on than brother and sister talks about the meaning of life!
-
I think it would really unfortunate that, after over a year and a half, T'Challa has not exhibited any of his new powers. And that it may be possible that he does so within the next 2 issues of OS. Worst off his big reveal might be written by Aaron's and NOT Hickman. I'm all about the wait and see approach but he could have displayed his stuff and then explained it away later. Hard light shields, tele-porting and off panel victories aside. I must admit I did like issue 18 though. But I was under the impression that he Was the embodiment of the previous Black Panthers. Though the communal counseling was good it seems like he is just going to borrow stuff and not bring his own stuff to the table. "Oh great Wall of Wakanda, lend me your resilience so that I may take this incoming butt-kicking from my Altantian "Frenemy"". Color me Jaded but I just hope that it is timed right with NA 19. Though I dont follow the X stuff but I thought Emma was Psyonically dead right now.
-
[QUOTE=The_Panther;79543]I think it would really unfortunate that, after over a year and a half, T'Challa has not exhibited any of his new powers. And that it may be possible that he does so within the next 2 issues of OS. Worst off his big reveal might be written by Aaron's and NOT Hickman. I'm all about the wait and see approach but he could have displayed his stuff and then explained it away later. Hard light shields, tele-porting and off panel victories aside. I must admit I did like issue 18 though. But I was under the impression that he Was the embodiment of the previous Black Panthers. Though the communal counseling was good it seems like he is just going to borrow stuff and not bring his own stuff to the table. "Oh great Wall of Wakanda, lend me your resilience so that I may take this incoming butt-kicking from my Altantian "Frenemy"". Color me Jaded but I just hope that it is timed right with NA 19. Though I dont follow the X stuff but I thought Emma was Psyonically dead right now.[/QUOTE]
Next issue of NA will be fight with the great society or whatever they are called and all the new powers should be on show then.
-
[QUOTE=The_Panther;79543]I think it would really unfortunate that, after over a year and a half, T'Challa has not exhibited any of his new powers. And that it may be possible that he does so within the next 2 issues of OS. Worst off his big reveal might be written by Aaron's and NOT Hickman. I'm all about the wait and see approach but he could have displayed his stuff and then explained it away later. Hard light shields, tele-porting and off panel victories aside. I must admit I did like issue 18 though. But I was under the impression that he Was the embodiment of the previous Black Panthers. Though the communal counseling was good it seems like he is just going to borrow stuff and not bring his own stuff to the table. "Oh great Wall of Wakanda, lend me your resilience so that I may take this incoming butt-kicking from my Altantian "Frenemy"". Color me Jaded but I just hope that it is timed right with NA 19. Though I dont follow the X stuff but I thought Emma was Psyonically dead right now.[/QUOTE]
Well, he seemed stronger in NA 1 than usual but you are right. We need to see feats with his new powers so they officially become canon.
Hopefully the fight with the GS will give us that.
We have finally been shown what his KoD Old Panther power thing is. Now we need to see how much power Bast actually gave T'challa to be her champion.
And Emma's powers are broken in UXM, this must take place farther in the future than where UXM is at right now. Or even a broken telepath can read the mind of a moloid lol.
Maybe Aaron is pulling a Bendis on Bendis :) (ignoring continuity... just because)
-
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;78766]Truth.
I am glad Wakanda is no longer,[B][U][I] "we are superior to all leave us alone we won't help you you don't help us"[/I][/U][/B]
T'challa should still put Wakanda first... and he is. Saving the universe = saving Wakanda.[/QUOTE]
Very wrng....Wakanda is m lyk "we hv our way, u hv urs. u dnt interfere in our bizness/wrld, we wnt interfere in urs"
Gvn Wakanda's history with d outside wrld ovr their 10 millenia its undrstndbl y dey wud choose isolatn.
-
I enjoyed the trip to Hell's Kitchen, T'Challa besting Kingpin, teaming with Shuri/Cage/Wilson
What's not to like about that moment in time
Also Hal Jordan wasn't a money maker, Johns combined Hal fans with anti-Batman fans then had everyone in Sinestro Corps War and it was downhill after that
-
[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;79296]And as i always say....Nobody says that sort of thing about comics based in space, Asgard, and other locations.[/QUOTE]
Like what other locations on Earth?
If its on Earth and not in the US (or NY)... people seem to not care quick for whatever reason.
-
[QUOTE=Vic Vega;78707]Dear old dad's ways didn't work out too well for him, either.
Dude's dead after all.[/QUOTE]
Well considering the fact "Dear old dad's" opening up of Wakanfda led to his being killed in the first place, I guess he grew wiser in death than he was in life.
Try again. :)
-
[QUOTE=Vic Vega;79088]But in that case T'Chaka wasn't the guy dealing with outsiders. The Wakandans can
fence the rest of the world out. But not all of them will be willing to fence themselves in.
Especially if there is something they can get out of dealing with outsiders.
If allying themselves with Hydra or Ultron will get M'Baku or Killmonger the throne, they will do it. If you're from M'Baku's tribe T'Chaka's oppressing your religious freedom anyway, so you have got all the justification you need.
[B]If everybody loved T'Chaka, he wouldn't have needed a secret police[/B].[/QUOTE]
Bro, that applies to all World leaders.
-
[QUOTE=Zuri;79077]Why? would it need to open up to be used in more stories? T'challa knows almost all the major heroes so it would not be strange for any of them to end up in Wakanda helping him or his sister out and for complex secret team type stories the heroes could be in Wakanda illegally trying to save the day before they are discovered, stories about Wakandan Mutants or Inhumans etc... there are lots of scenarios where an isolationist Wakanda can be involved with the wider Marvel world Its just up to the writers to use it in their books.
Also Wakanda already involves itself in world events that effect it. In Hudlin's run the Wakandan Secret service was compared to Mossad so they are very much active in protecting their interests internationally. I think there is a Wakandan Space program from Priests run those N'Yami battle cruisers go into low orbit when they travel long distances, this indicates to me that Wakandan scientists are familiar with space travel.
Isolationism does not prevent Wakandans from leavening Wakanda and exploring the outside world Onome's recruitment into the FF is a good example of this. Writers just have to want to use Wakandan characters in their stories.
I see T'challa as a guardian of Wakandian culture even more so as KOTD, so i don't see turning away from the isolationism that has served his people well for a thousand years.[/QUOTE]
Agreed 1000%.
-
[QUOTE=Zuri;79077]Why? would it need to open up to be used in more stories? T'challa knows almost all the major heroes so it would not be strange for any of them to end up in Wakanda helping him or his sister out and for complex secret team type stories the heroes could be in Wakanda illegally trying to save the day before they are discovered, stories about Wakandan Mutants or Inhumans etc... there are lots of scenarios where an isolationist Wakanda can be involved with the wider Marvel world Its just up to the writers to use it in their books.
Also Wakanda already involves itself in world events that effect it. In Hudlin's run the Wakandan Secret service was compared to Mossad so they are very much active in protecting their interests internationally. I think there is a Wakandan Space program from Priests run those N'Yami battle cruisers go into low orbit when they travel long distances, this indicates to me that Wakandan scientists are familiar with space travel.
Isolationism does not prevent Wakandans from leavening Wakanda and exploring the outside world Onome's recruitment into the FF is a good example of this. Writers just have to want to use Wakandan characters in their stories.
I see T'challa as a guardian of Wakandian culture even more so as KOTD, so i don't see turning away from the isolationism that has served his people well for a thousand years.[/QUOTE]
Damn. Perfectly stated. Kun Lun,Asgard,Atlantis, and Attilan are just backdrops for their characters. This mytical kingdoms are their to enhance their characters and thats it. Hell, Marvel barely is able to get a series set in Canada or Europe off the ground. Overall fandom only cares about the characters and how they fit with other characters that they like.
-
As far as the opening up Wakanda goes that is what T'challa represents himself you don't need the whole country to like outsiders that's what sets up the big payoff!
If you thought of T'challa in actor terms it's the managing of the old ways with the new ways that gives him character development and better dialogue to speak on!
If he's just Mickey Mouse standing at the gates of Wakanda like it is Disneyland welcoming visitors far and wide that loses all the intensity of the possible story telling!
The Black Panther should be the bridge between Wakanda and the greater Marvel universe... Too many outsiders leads to eventual colonialism and even he would see that coming from a mile away!
Keep my Wakanda xenophobic to the core...
STOP THE RANGE ROVER SIR!!!
-
[QUOTE=FLEX HECTIC;80624]As far as the opening up Wakanda goes that is what T'challa represents himself you don't need the whole country to like outsiders that's what sets up the big payoff!
If you thought of T'challa in actor terms it's the managing of the old ways with the new ways that gives him character development and better dialogue to speak on!
If he's just Mickey Mouse standing at the gates of Wakanda like it is Disneyland welcoming visitors far and wide that loses all the intensity of the possible story telling!
The Black Panther should be the bridge between Wakanda and the greater Marvel universe... Too many outsiders leads to eventual colonialism and even he would see that coming from a mile away!
Keep my Wakanda xenophobic to the core...
STOP THE RANGE ROVER SIR!!![/QUOTE]
Agreed.
People make all this noise about Wakanda being isolationist as if Atlantis, Kun Lun or even Attilan (before it's fall) are any more open to frequent visits by outsiders.
-
I don't think any of the nations have to be more open, but the writers/editors just have to make it their business to incorporate these nations into the overall plans of the Marvel Universe.
-
[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;80588]Damn. Perfectly stated. Kun Lun,Asgard,Atlantis, and Attilan are just backdrops for their characters. This mytical kingdoms are their to enhance their characters and thats it. Hell, Marvel barely is able to get a series set in Canada or Europe off the ground. Overall fandom only cares about the characters and how they fit with other characters that they like.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I haven't read the other pages, but I thought what was done in NA #19 was canonically correct, if you are following what Priest did (see the client).
About Isolationism. That is simply their foreign policy. Plain and simple, but don't expect nay-sayers to care. There are different forms of foreign policy and Isolationism has been one.
People also leave out that the Golden City is also protecting not only Vibranium from the masses, but Knowledge itself as shown in FF #607. But don't expect folks to recognize that.
T'chaka looked great.
-
[QUOTE=Zuri;79578]Next issue of NA will be fight with the great society or whatever they are called and all the new powers should be on show then.[/QUOTE]
I certainly hope so. The last 4 big fights occurred OFF panel. Terrax, Black Dwarf, the fight to the Necropolis, and the second fight with Black Swan. I think this is a "hold lets work together to find a common solution" sort of deal that will last 4 months. Even the alternate Panthers only had about a panel to work with. Before they died.
-
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;79591]Well, he seemed stronger in NA 1 than usual but you are right. We need to see feats with his new powers so they officially become canon.
Hopefully the fight with the GS will give us that.
We have finally been shown what his KoD Old Panther power thing is. Now we need to see how much power Bast actually gave T'challa to be her champion.
And Emma's powers are broken in UXM, this must take place farther in the future than where UXM is at right now. Or even a broken telepath can read the mind of a moloid lol.
Maybe Aaron is pulling a Bendis on Bendis :) (ignoring continuity... just because)[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately I don't have much faith in Aarons, he is still on my WTF did just read list. So he has a lot of making up to do. And that is going to be beyond Hickman level of a slow burn.
-
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;80175]Bro, that applies to all World leaders.[/QUOTE]
"Many a king on a first-class throne,
If he wants to call his crown his own,
Must manage, somehow, to get through...
More dirtier work, then e'er _I_ do!"
As for Wakanda, the problem isn't that it's isolationist... it's that they've been made TOO advanced compared to the rest of the Marvel U. It's the flip side of the "Reed Richards is Useless" thing. I'm not saying that they should be made more "realistic" (Hell no. That leads to "Let's trash the country again!") but when interstellar teleportation is used as a teaching aid for high-schoolers, you have a problem. :)
And now, rather than being "an exotic location, full of adventure!", Wakanda has been canonized as "a bunch of pricks who only think about themselves". :P
-
[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;83141]"Many a king on a first-class throne,
If he wants to call his crown his own,
Must manage, somehow, to get through...
More dirtier work, then e'er _I_ do!"
As for Wakanda, the problem isn't that it's isolationist... it's that they've been made TOO advanced compared to the rest of the Marvel U. It's the flip side of the "Reed Richards is Useless" thing. I'm not saying that they should be made more "realistic" (Hell no. That leads to "Let's trash the country again!") but when interstellar teleportation is used as a teaching aid for high-schoolers, you have a problem. :)
And now, rather than being "an exotic location, full of adventure!", Wakanda has been canonized as "a bunch of pricks who only think about themselves". :P[/QUOTE]
I don't think so. I think its just a negative labeling--due to the uniqueness of having a minority society that is advanced. The Watchers are secretive they had the ULTIMATE NULLIFIER. But no one has said the Watchers are a bunch of pricks that could have stopped Galactus from eating worlds.
Tony Stark has tech that could feed the hungry, and possibly stop poverty but he isnt judged the way Panther and Wakanda are--
The Eternals, Asgard, Kun Lun, Atlantis, Latveria, etc are all advanced but Wakanda is singled out more often. Its the racial component that causes some readers to judge more harshly. And thats no knock against you..its society. Anything Minorities do is judged more critically..and so it is in fantasy.
Also the ego is bruised by the idea of an Advanced African Nation that doesn't need help from Western authorities. No panther fan thinks Wakanda is the Ideal society--we just respect the mythos. I don't personally think KUn Lun is the home of the most advanced MArtial Artist and that an outsider could learn a discipline that the other warriors (locals) spent an entire life-time learning--from childhood.
But somehow that gets a pass as plausible. And good--it should its only a fantasy. When it comes to Wakanda methinks my fanboys doth protest too much!
-
[QUOTE=FriendRoss;69343]just saying
they have named how many of the stones out of 6?
by nature the MCU infinity stones are best generally described "rocks with magic powers" boiled down to its barest elements, isnt vibranium a rock with magic powers?[/QUOTE]
It wud b awesome if Wakandan vibranium or a rare supa-rear secret hyper-version of it(kept closely in d Panther God dimension) is an infinity stone.
-
[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;83287]I don't think so. I think its just a negative labeling--due to the uniqueness of having a minority society that is advanced. The Watchers are secretive they had the ULTIMATE NULLIFIER. But no one has said the Watchers are a bunch of pricks that could have stopped Galactus from eating worlds.
Tony Stark has tech that could feed the hungry, and possibly stop poverty but he isnt judged the way Panther and Wakanda are--
The Eternals, Asgard, Kun Lun, Atlantis, Latveria, etc are all advanced but Wakanda is singled out more often. Its the racial component that causes some readers to judge more harshly. And thats no knock against you..its society. Anything Minorities do is judged more critically..and so it is in fantasy.
Also the ego is bruised by the idea of an Advanced African Nation that doesn't need help from Western authorities. No panther fan thinks Wakanda is the Ideal society--we just respect the mythos. I don't personally think KUn Lun is the home of the most advanced MArtial Artist and that an outsider could learn a discipline that the other warriors (locals) spent an entire life-time learning--from childhood.
But somehow that gets a pass as plausible. And good--it should its only a fantasy. When it comes to Wakanda methinks my fanboys doth protest too much![/QUOTE]
Yet the Watcher is the Watcher, even if he bends the rules a bit, he still has rules to obey.
And beside Tony tends to be a jerk most of the time.
Besides, you cannot ignore that when it comes it the freedom of Earth, that Wakanda would place their nation first helping the free world.
-
[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;83287]I don't think so. I think its just a negative labeling--due to the uniqueness of having a minority society that is advanced. The Watchers are secretive they had the ULTIMATE NULLIFIER. But no one has said the Watchers are a bunch of pricks that could have stopped Galactus from eating worlds.
Tony Stark has tech that could feed the hungry, and possibly stop poverty but he isnt judged the way Panther and Wakanda are--
The Eternals, Asgard, Kun Lun, Atlantis, Latveria, etc are all advanced but Wakanda is singled out more often. Its the racial component that causes some readers to judge more harshly. And thats no knock against you..its society. Anything Minorities do is judged more critically..and so it is in fantasy.
Also the ego is bruised by the idea of an Advanced African Nation that doesn't need help from Western authorities. No panther fan thinks Wakanda is the Ideal society--we just respect the mythos. I don't personally think KUn Lun is the home of the most advanced MArtial Artist and that an outsider could learn a discipline that the other warriors (locals) spent an entire life-time learning--from childhood.
But somehow that gets a pass as plausible. And good--it should its only a fantasy. When it comes to Wakanda methinks my fanboys doth protest too much![/QUOTE]
Very solid post.
However, I very muh doubt that the Wakandans see themselves as being a minority espeially as they are the majority in their own sovereign nation. :cool:
-
[QUOTE=Cmbmool;83403]Yet the Watcher is the Watcher, even if he bends the rules a bit, he still has rules to obey.
And beside Tony tends to be a jerk most of the time.
Besides, you cannot ignore that when it comes it the freedom of Earth, that Wakanda would place their nation first helping the [B]free world[/B].[/QUOTE]
What is this "free world" you keep referencing?
Who doesn't place their nation first? (in the real world)
There's nothing in your post that actually counters anything in ExelsiorPrime's so I'm wondering what point you were actually trying to make.
As evidened by the counsel offered by the spectral Black Panthers it's pretty much obvious why Wakanda remained unconquered for the 10,000 years that preceded T'Challa's ascendance to the throne.
T'Challa as portrayed post Hudlin, is probably the worst Monarch that Wakanda has ever had just based off of Doomwar and AvX alone but for some unknown reason most of his fervent detractors keep peddling the fantasy of his perfect winning streak inspitre of evidence to the contrary.
[IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/dnj6so.jpg[/IMG]
-
[QUOTE=Cmbmool;83403]Yet the Watcher is the Watcher, even if he bends the rules a bit, he still has rules to obey.
And beside Tony tends to be a jerk most of the time.
Besides, you cannot ignore that when it comes it the freedom of Earth, that Wakanda would place their nation first helping the free world.[/QUOTE]
Did any other nations send help during Secret Invasion? It's always easy to point at Wakanda with accusation like this. During Red Zone, Wakandan scientists worked on the cure that stopped the spread of and cured the disease inflicted by the Red Skull. The lack of Wakandan involvement in anything outside of a Black Panther title lies at the feet of the writer's who never use this resource. And it's true of a lot of other nations and races as well like Atlantis, the Eternals, the Deviants, etc.
As far as isolationism goes, there should be a balance. I don't want Wakanda so closed off that it it's become cut off from the rest of the world with little to no interation at all. But I don't want to see open borders either. The history of slavery of Africa and the abuses heaped upon must be taken into consideration when dealing with a powerful African nation that has successfully defended itself from all conquerors. The need for isolationism was/is warranted.
However as the world advancing the way it is and becoming "smaller" I don't see why other Wakandans wouldn't venture out into the world to make their own way and explore other cultures or why Wakanda would allow certain cultural trades with other friendly nations. Isolationism to the point of no interaction at all with the rest of the world is just a terrible idea and not a very interesting premise. Priest did a very good job of striking a balance.
-
[QUOTE=ExcelsiorPrime;83287]I don't think so. I think its just a negative labeling--due to the uniqueness of having a minority society that is advanced. The Watchers are secretive they had the ULTIMATE NULLIFIER. But no one has said the Watchers are a bunch of pricks that could have stopped Galactus from eating worlds.[/quote]
The Watcher's lack of interference and wealth of knowledge/intelligence/resources has been a sore spot for some. But the Watcher has been so indirectly involved with anything these past couple decades that current readers are less likely to notice.
[QUOTE]The Eternals, Asgard, Kun Lun, Atlantis, Latveria, etc are all advanced but Wakanda is singled out more often. Its the racial component that causes some readers to judge more harshly. And thats no knock against you..its society. Anything Minorities do is judged more critically..and so it is in fantasy.[/QUOTE]
The Eternals somewhat suffer from being unconnected. Generally, unless there's an Eternals comic being published, they aren't used. And if they are, there's hardly anything about their society; rather, someone is using the character just to use the character, like Robinson just did with Ikaris in Invaders.
Asgard made a point of not interfering in mortals' affairs. Readers and posters have observed that they could do more to help, but I think universally people simply say "Odin's a jerk" and move on. However accurate that might be.
I don't consider K'un L'un advanced, so they're a separate animal. Latveria is run by Doom. No one complains about their accomplishments because almost all of those accomplishments were done or are controlled by a noted super-villain. He does help on occasion, but only when it suits him personally.
So, I think Wakanda ends up being singled out for a couple reasons. They are led by a hero, so readers naturally want his nation to be as heroic and noble as possible, and for many this would include helping other nations and heroes in need. Also, Wakanda is "real"--it's a country run by people (not gods)--and in the real world, people struggle with nations that sequester themselves. I think there certainly is a component of "how can there be this advanced society in Africa?", but I think it's mostly just general confusion as to how there can be such a powerful, self-sufficient nation that seemingly cares so little for the rest of the world.
-
[QUOTE=Joe Acro;83470]The Watcher's lack of interference and wealth of knowledge/intelligence/resources has been a sore spot for some. But the Watcher has been so indirectly involved with anything these past couple decades that current readers are less likely to notice.
The Eternals somewhat suffer from being unconnected. Generally, unless there's an Eternals comic being published, they aren't used. And if they are, there's hardly anything about their society; rather, someone is using the character just to use the character, like Robinson just did with Ikaris in Invaders.
Asgard made a point of not interfering in mortals' affairs. Readers and posters have observed that they could do more to help, but I think universally people simply say "Odin's a jerk" and move on. However accurate that might be.
I don't consider K'un L'un advanced, so they're a separate animal. Latveria is run by Doom. No one complains about their accomplishments because almost all of those accomplishments were done or are controlled by a noted super-villain. He does help on occasion, but only when it suits him personally.
So, I think Wakanda ends up being singled out for a couple reasons. They are led by a hero, so readers naturally want his nation to be as heroic and noble as possible, and for many this would include helping other nations and heroes in need. Also, Wakanda is "real"--it's a country run by people (not gods)--and in the real world, people struggle with nations that sequester themselves. I think there certainly is a component of "how can there be this advanced society in Africa?", but I think it's mostly just general confusion as to how there can be such a powerful, self-sufficient nation that seemingly cares so little for the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't the same be said of Namor and Atlantis? Atlantis doesn't welcome outsiders, has a heroic leader and cares little for the rest of the world. And both Wakanda and Atlantis share something in common, they both have witnessed abuse by the rest of the world either directly or indirectly. I still have to point back to my original comment about Wakanda not being used very often by other writers in other titles. But it has to be in a fair and balanced way. Johns did a good job of this in Avengers Red Zone but we've seen others too often give the wrong impression or even troll Wakanda. Gentile would be a good example of this.
A Wakandan woman falls in love with an outsider and shown very much in love but yet their child is shunned by Wakandans for being an outsider, for being different. Yet the FF are always welcome with open arms. The contradiction there is stunning. This is what we see too often of Wakanda's portrayal outside of a BP series.
-
Also a lot could be said of first introductions. To Wakandans the outside world equals exploitation. Klaw wanting the vibranium. Doom basically wanting the vibranium.
Yet wakanda never took the offensive.
I believe Atlantis has tried to do that numerous times--and they don't have the stigma Wakanda does. I just see a more intense social critique on one fantasy realm than others.
[IMG]http://images.wwcomics.com/images/large/Sub_67_BG.jpg[/IMG]
-
[QUOTE=Joe Acro;83470]The Watcher's lack of interference and wealth of knowledge/intelligence/resources has been a sore spot for some. But the Watcher has been so indirectly involved with anything these past couple decades that current readers are less likely to notice.
The Eternals somewhat suffer from being unconnected. Generally, unless there's an Eternals comic being published, they aren't used. And if they are, there's hardly anything about their society; rather, someone is using the character just to use the character, like Robinson just did with Ikaris in Invaders.
Asgard made a point of not interfering in mortals' affairs. Readers and posters have observed that they could do more to help, but I think universally people simply say "Odin's a jerk" and move on. However accurate that might be.
I don't consider K'un L'un advanced, so they're a separate animal. Latveria is run by Doom. No one complains about their accomplishments because almost all of those accomplishments were done or are controlled by a noted super-villain. He does help on occasion, but only when it suits him personally.[B]
So, I think Wakanda ends up being singled out for a couple reasons. They are led by a hero, so readers naturally want his nation to be as heroic and noble as possible, and for many this would include helping other nations and heroes in need. Also, Wakanda is "real"--it's a country run by people (not gods)--and in the real world, people struggle with nations that sequester themselves. I think there certainly is a component of "how can there be this advanced society in Africa?", but I think it's mostly just general confusion as to how there can be such a powerful, self-sufficient nation that seemingly cares so little for the rest of the world.[/B][/QUOTE]
But here's the thing Joe, T'Challa used to be a King pre Doomwar but for some reason, some chose to pigeonhole him into the straightjacket constraints of superherodom that the likes of Black Bolt or Namor are not constrained by.
As you rightly pointed out, Doom is monarch who does help occasionally for his own personal reasons but he ironically gets treated like some sort of anti-heroic type character which I've learnt to find mildly amusing over the last few years.
As for Wakanda keeping themselves to themselves, based on what we've seen so far when they do open their borders to help others, they'd be better off going full isolationist moving forward.
T'Challa cared so much about the world that he offered the Avengers sanctuary within Wakanda's borders during AvX and what did he get for it?
The near wholesale slaughter of his fellow country men and women.
-
[QUOTE=Marvell2100;83513]Couldn't the same be said of Namor and Atlantis? Atlantis doesn't welcome outsiders, has a heroic leader and cares little for the rest of the world. And both Wakanda and Atlantis share something in common, they both have witnessed abuse by the rest of the world either directly or indirectly. I still have to point back to my original comment about Wakanda not being used very often by other writers in other titles. But it has to be in a fair and balanced way. Johns did a good job of this in Avengers Red Zone but we've seen others too often give the wrong impression or even troll Wakanda. Gentile would be a good example of this.
A Wakandan woman falls in love with an outsider and shown very much in love but yet their child is shunned by Wakandans for being an outsider, for being different. Yet the FF are always welcome with open arms. The contradiction there is stunning. This is what we see too often of Wakanda's portrayal outside of a BP series.[/QUOTE]
Agreed 100%.
-
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;83525][B]But here's the thing Joe, T'Challa used to be a King pre Doomwar but for some reason, some chose to pigeonhole him into the straightjacket constraints of superherodom[/B] that the likes of Black Bolt or Namor are not constrained by.
As you rightly pointed out, Doom is monarch who does help occasionally for his own personal reasons but he ironically gets treated like some sort of anti-heroic type character which I've learnt to find mildly amusing over the last few years.
As for Wakanda keeping themselves to themselves, based on what we've seen so far when they do open their borders to help others, they'd be better off going full isolationist moving forward.
T'Challa cared so much about the world that he offered the Avengers sanctuary within Wakanda's borders during AvX and what did he get for it?
The near wholesale slaughter of his fellow country men and women.[/QUOTE]
Yeah BCB, I've said it too many times. T'Challa is not a superhero. He can be heroic which he is but in the sense of the word, he's not a superhero. Same as Namor or Black Bolt. Neither of them gets called to the mat for their isolationism nor their lack of effort to help the rest of the world. Namor could feed the world but no one calls him out on it.
And frankly, they shouldn't nor should anyone call out T'Challa. Like you said these mean are leaders of powerful nations who many would like to use, abuse or even kill. Their primary concern is defending their nation. When the world is threatened they all step up to defend it.
-
Byronic Hero...
[url]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Byronic%20Hero[/url]
-
T'Challa being the reason for Wakandan advances still makes more sense to me than 10,000 years of isolation. I miss that T'Challa. Sure 10,000 years sounds cooler, and in some ways is, but it has taken the focus of T'Challa and his actions and accomplishments and gives any detractors 10,000 years of possible Wakandan sins and places them on the shoulders of T'Challa and Shuri.
-
[QUOTE=Joe Acro;83470]The Watcher's lack of interference and wealth of knowledge/intelligence/resources has been a sore spot for some. But the Watcher has been so indirectly involved with anything these past couple decades that current readers are less likely to notice.
The Eternals somewhat suffer from being unconnected. Generally, unless there's an Eternals comic being published, they aren't used. And if they are, there's hardly anything about their society; rather, someone is using the character just to use the character, like Robinson just did with Ikaris in Invaders.
Asgard made a point of not interfering in mortals' affairs. Readers and posters have observed that they could do more to help, but I think universally people simply say "Odin's a jerk" and move on. However accurate that might be.
I don't consider K'un L'un advanced, so they're a separate animal. Latveria is run by Doom. No one complains about their accomplishments because almost all of those accomplishments were done or are controlled by a noted super-villain. He does help on occasion, but only when it suits him personally.
So, I think Wakanda ends up being singled out for a couple reasons. They are led by a hero, so readers naturally want his nation to be as heroic and noble as possible, and for many this would include helping other nations and heroes in need. Also, Wakanda is "real"--it's a country run by people (not gods)--and in the real world, people struggle with nations that sequester themselves. I think there certainly is a component of "how can there be this advanced society in Africa?", but I think it's mostly just general confusion as to how there can be such a powerful, self-sufficient nation that seemingly cares so little for the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]
Other that the 100 or Eternals that actually like hanging out with Humans, like Ikaris, Makkari and Sersi, the vast majority of them left the Earth, never to return, becaing so far advanced over regular Humanity that they felt they had nothing in common with them. Starfox's branch of the Eternals left Earth even earlier, even though they only got as far as the moon of Titan.
The Asgardians and them stopped dealing with Earth when they stopped being worshipped by humans. Depending on who you believe, its either because of "Humanity must make its own mistakes" or because "they don't worship us any more-screw them". But nobody expects Gods or Long Lived Space Alien Hybrids to go out of thier way for mortal (whose life spans are over in an eyeblink from thier perspective-Its hard to get worked up over the fate of mayflies).
Atlantis is slightly different matter. The average Atlantean would last about 30 minutes on dry land without tech or magic. And who has access to that stuff? Only the noble classes. So other than getting pressed into service for somebody "war on the surface world" the average Atlentean isn't in a position to do much with or about the rest of the world.
Now Namor is (in a position to do much with or about the rest of the world), but we know what the deal is with him. Dude sits on his throne all day, dreaming of ways to get into Sue Richards or Emma Frost's panties, then gets bored or pissed off and comes to the surface to pick a fight or try to get laid or both.
Namor's mostly a gleeful D-bag. You can't use that to condemn him. That is the point of him.
The Inhumans up until recently were city of bizarre freaks that had no way of intergrating with humanity. So most of them kept a low profile and the one that could leave did and hid out from everybody. Who were THEY gonna help and with what?
The point is that some have problems with the allegedly noble Wakandan letting for example the slave trade to thier neighbors happen when they probably had gatling guns and tanks by that time.
There are reasons, but its a completely different issue than "Why don't Space Alien Uber People, Space Alien Freak People, Gods and Fish People care about humans?"
Its "Why don't these Africans over there care about these Africans over here?"
At least with the classic origin, none of this is an issue because [B]the Wakandans don't get high tech until T'Challa's reign[/B]. Its just assumed that they were just simply well-hidden before.
So pre Priest the early Wakandans [B]weren't in a postion to do anything about the outside world[/B].
-
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;83926]T'Challa being the reason for Wakandan advances still makes more sense to me than 10,000 years of isolation. I miss that T'Challa. Sure 10,000 years sounds cooler, and in some ways is, but it has taken the focus of T'Challa and his actions and accomplishments and gives any detractors 10,000 years of possible Wakandan sins and places them on the shoulders of T'Challa and Shuri.[/QUOTE]
I'm with you on this. I didn't like the change.
-
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;83926]T'Challa being the reason for Wakandan advances still makes more sense to me than 10,000 years of isolation. I miss that T'Challa. Sure 10,000 years sounds cooler, and in some ways is, but it has taken the focus of T'Challa and his actions and accomplishments and gives any detractors 10,000 years of possible Wakandan sins and places them on the shoulders of T'Challa and Shuri.[/QUOTE]
I personally never liked that aspect. Way to "One great man" for me. The 10,000 years make Wakanda different than most African nations in fiction. It does not fall for that typical "we're a bunch of 'savages', 'terrorists', or 'victims'" bunk that's always used.
Plus, if it was T'Challa who essentially brought an "age of enlightenment", then what makes him any different than "The goddess Storm blesses these ignorant savages?"
I'd much rather have, "T'Challa is the best and brightest of a nation with a history of excellence and exceeding expectations." Sure, all powerful nations have dark histories, and that's the price Wakanda has to pay, like any other. But I'd rather have that then another Noble Savage.