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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2225150]Dude, T'Challa had no business meeting with those guys in the first place.
Would King T'Chaka have done the same?[/QUOTE]
Oga, Maj I know now, but perhaps BP some kinda plan (as someone else has stated here earlier).
Maybe 3 steps ahead BP is back?
One can hope...
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2225419]In retrospect, nothing Maberry did was this bad.
He never portrayed T'Challa as a sellout.[/QUOTE]
Lol shows how much the bar has shifted. Coates is so bad he makes some of T'Challas worst moments look average.
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I thought issue #5 was a great read. I'm a fan of political drama and this is one of the very few books that has me hanging on every word. I feel this is leading up to a big crescendo and that by the conclusion this'll end being a work of genius.
Its crazy but Wakanda is beginning to feel like a real place to me.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2225458]Yes! They could have representatives from each of the tribal villages! A "Tribal Parliament" so to speak.
Oh, wait...[/QUOTE]
Essentially what I imagine the want is a means to elect leadeship, amd hold them accountable. Maybe something a bit more modernized than a fighting tournament.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2225469]So true. This run will be talked about for a very long time, for better or for worse.[/QUOTE]
[B]Its such a weird story to be honest, Like I dont quite know how to take that issue[/B]
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[QUOTE=XPac;2225632]Essentially what I imagine the want is a means to elect leadeship, amd hold them accountable. Maybe something a bit more modernized than a fighting tournament.[/QUOTE]
yeah.. cause how we do it is working out so much better for us
i do think there is very fertile ground to be covered on the modernization of wakanda such as the rights of succession.... the coates stuff gets real close to being that. i think thats the frustrating thing to me
its like if the series was a movie, you could take it into the editing room and come out with a better cut of the movie...
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2225689][B]Its such a weird story to be honest, Like I dont quite know how to take that issue[/B][/QUOTE]
Tell me about it. A very strange run indeed.
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My reaction to this issue in gif form
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/yungburnout/Gifs/0000z8gk.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2224828]BTW this is the second issue that Ororo has been drawn into the comic. I think Coates is setting up Ororo to be either a recurring character that shows up every few issues. Ideally though, the Inhumans would finish off the X-men and Ororo would be free to return to Wakanda. But no matter how much Coates may like them together, Marvel's not letting them get Re-Married.[/QUOTE]
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I hope the hell she does not
Rape treecamps AND Storm.......
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[QUOTE=Smoov-E;2225758]Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I hope the hell she does not
Rape treecamps AND Storm.......[/QUOTE]
LOL! (10 chars)
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2224828]BTW this is the second issue that Ororo has been drawn into the comic. I think Coates is setting up Ororo to be either a recurring character that shows up every few issues. Ideally though, the Inhumans would finish off the X-men and Ororo would be free to return to Wakanda. [B]But no matter how much Coates may like them together,[/B] Marvel's not letting them get Re-Married.[/QUOTE]
I remember him saying he wasn't for them married, guess he was upset they put two blk folks together(ugh!), he was shipping her and wolvie!
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2225419]In retrospect, nothing Maberry did was this bad.
He never portrayed T'Challa as a sellout.[/QUOTE]
Goddamn Maj
I'm yet to read the latest issue (Coates has made a bp book not an immediate read for me smh) but it can't be that bad.
I don't even know why Marvel are doing a second book when the core fans seems to dislike this run, the book with be dead on arrival.
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I read it.
I wish I hadn't.
I haven't seen a plot on rails like this in a long time.
And as for the whole "the only way to be a king is to be feared" concept, that shows a blinkered version of history that's beyond ignorance.
You all are right. Coates is planning on dissolving the monarchy. It's the only endgame that makes sense.
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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;2225806]Goddamn Maj
I'm yet to read the latest issue (Coates has made a bp book not an immediate read for me smh) but it can't be that bad.
I don't even know why Marvel are doing a second book when the core fans seems to dislike this run, the book with be dead on arrival.[/QUOTE]
I very much doubt that I'm the sort of reader Coates is interested in courting.
This is without a shadow of a doubt, the worst level of character assassination I've ever had the misfortune of witnessing in all of my years of reading comicbooks bar none.
There are absolutely no redeeming qualities as far as T'Challa's portrayal under Coates pen is concerned.
His failure continues unabated from #1 straight through to #5 in an unbroken chain of deliberately applied PIS that defies comprehension.
But hey, what do I know?
I'm the "negative" one for pointing stuff like this out.
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2225812]I read it.
I wish I hadn't.
I haven't seen a plot on rails like this in a long time.
And as for the whole "the only way to be a king is to be feared" concept, that shows a blinkered version of history that's beyond ignorance.
You all are right. Coates is planning on dissolving the monarchy. It's the only endgame that makes sense.[/QUOTE]
The level of deliberately applied ignorance being employed in the telling of this sorry excuse for a story is beyond tone deaf.
It's full on obtuse at this point.
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[QUOTE=memnoch;2225805]I remember him saying he wasn't for them married, guess he was upset they put two blk folks together(ugh!), he was shipping her and wolvie![/QUOTE]
Oh he was, but he also said that after he began researching the project, it was definitely something he couldn't ignore. We'll see what happens when she finally makes her debut in a couple of months.
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[QUOTE=FriendRoss;2225698]yeah.. cause how we do it is working out so much better for us
i do think there is very fertile ground to be covered on the modernization of wakanda such as the rights of succession.... the coates stuff gets real close to being that. i think thats the frustrating thing to me
its like if the series was a movie, you could take it into the editing room and come out with a better cut of the movie...[/QUOTE]
Democracy is by no means a perfect system. That said I still think most would find elections preferable to a fighting tournament. Especially a fighting tournament where the winner takes a poisonous herb.
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[QUOTE=UltimateTy;2225806]Goddamn Maj
I'm yet to read the latest issue (Coates has made a bp book not an immediate read for me smh) but it can't be that bad.
I don't even know why Marvel are doing a second book when the core fans seems to dislike this run, the book with be dead on arrival.[/QUOTE]
Since the core book is,selling well, they're hoping a second book might sell well too. We'll see if Coates name value can carry a second book.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2225865]Democracy is by no means a perfect system. That said I still think most would find elections preferable to a fighting tournament. Especially a fighting tournament where the winner takes a poisonous herb.[/QUOTE]
Reminds me of something I posted a few months ago:
[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;1958962]"Strange cats lying in pavilions throwing around sacred herbs is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical botanical ceremony!"[/QUOTE]
:D
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[url]http://www.comicbookmovie.com/black_panther/joe-robert-cole-shares-black-panther-details-a144426[/url]
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[QUOTE=Moose100;2226008][url]http://www.comicbookmovie.com/black_panther/joe-robert-cole-shares-black-panther-details-a144426[/url][/QUOTE]
"The art of" book is going to be off the chain
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[QUOTE=neohuey89;2224829]I liked the conversation he had with one of the attackers, but I'm just confused as to how it was beneficial to him. It just seem like it was done just for it to backfire on him.[/QUOTE]
Well do we know who made those chest bomb pieces? Did Marvel get the rights to Cyborg's Dad or did someone download some of Tony Stark's designs.
I was fine until those last few panels.
Storm-that look-I now FEAR that next issue when she shows up. She might let him have it in such a way that even the X-Office gets offended.
And where is Vib (I can't spell his name right-from Fantastic Force) at?
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Obviously, those who don't like this story aren't going to like the first half. The obvious implication is T'Challa is tempted to become like tin-pot dictator like the others in the room. I think the more subtle and interesting implication is whether he's becoming like his father who used the Hatut Zeraze brutally if White Wolf is to be believed. Regardless, this is a dark path we hope T'Challa might be tempted by but never seduced by. Obviously, though, even in rejecting it, things didn't go as planned.
But the interrogation towards the end is a different side that I think is worth emphasizing. To me, it's the same noble T'Challa as the one who took off his mask to a small child to say he was just as human as the boy was. It shows his compassion. How, as King, it isn't that he rules Wakanda, he is Wakanda. Obviously, in the modern age, it's impossible for him to truly know every single one of his subjects, but he has a strength of character and wisdom that shines through.
The story with Shuri about the Adowa is a highlight. It was a cool little Wakandan history moment, but it's more about the strength of the people. It also seems Coates is building something up with Shuri for a return. I'm curious to see where it goes.
[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2225812]I read it.[/quote]
Why?
[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2225150]Dude, T'Challa had no business meeting with those guys in the first place.
Would King T'Chaka have done the same?[/QUOTE]
I mentioned it above (I tend to write my thoughts down and then go back to see what others have said), but I think he absolutely would have. I'm going off Christopher Priest's run here, but T'Chaka is generally shown through the eyes of T'Challa, who isn't necessarily a reliable narrator. But there are hints through Priest's run that T'Chaka is not as noble as his son views him. The Hatut Zeraze and Hunter is the perfect example. T'Challa banned them because of their brutality. That brutality was something that existed during T'Chaka's rule. The only logical conclusion is T'Chaka used the Hatut Zeraze as a brutal secret police, much in the same way as these other dictators.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2226187]
Why?
[/QUOTE]
To give Coates one last chance.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2225840]I very much doubt that I'm the sort of reader Coates is interested in courting.
This is without a shadow of a doubt, the worst level of character assassination I've ever had the misfortune of witnessing in all of my years of reading comicbooks bar none.
There are absolutely no redeeming qualities as far as T'Challa's portrayal under Coates pen is concerned.
His failure continues unabated from #1 straight through to #5 in an unbroken chain of deliberately applied PIS that defies comprehension.
But hey, what do I know?
I'm the "negative" one for pointing stuff like this out.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000000"]I would say it's on par with what was done with Tony Stark in Civil War and Cap in AvX.
2 of my favorite characters, T'Challa and Tony have been put through some pretty dubious shyte.
Btw, I liked your opening post on Sci-Fi and Afro-Futurism.
I'm a huge Sci-Fi guy myself, really liked Starlin's work on Captain Marvel and his run on Avengers. His METAMORPHOSIS ODYSSEY in Epic Illustrated and his later work on DREADSTAR are some of the greatest comic works imo. I have to ask you, have you read THE PRICE? That is one of the greatest stories that I have ever read. I also liked ALIEN LEGION and SIX FROM SIRIUS. I think I was buying just bout everything from Epic back then.
[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2226187]Obviously, those who don't like this story aren't going to like the first half. The obvious implication is T'Challa is tempted to become like tin-pot dictator like the others in the room. I think the more subtle and interesting implication is whether he's becoming like his father who used the Hatut Zeraze brutally if White Wolf is to be believed. Regardless, this is a dark path we hope T'Challa might be tempted by but never seduced by. Obviously, though, even in rejecting it, things didn't go as planned.
But the interrogation towards the end is a different side that I think is worth emphasizing. To me, it's the same noble T'Challa as the one who took off his mask to a small child to say he was just as human as the boy was. It shows his compassion. How, as King, it isn't that he rules Wakanda, he is Wakanda. Obviously, in the modern age, it's impossible for him to truly know every single one of his subjects, but he has a strength of character and wisdom that shines through.
The story with Shuri about the Adowa is a highlight. It was a cool little Wakandan history moment, but it's more about the strength of the people. It also seems Coates is building something up with Shuri for a return. I'm curious to see where it goes.
Why?
I mentioned it above (I tend to write my thoughts down and then go back to see what others have said), but I think he absolutely would have. I'm going off Christopher Priest's run here, but T'Chaka is generally shown through the eyes of T'Challa, who isn't necessarily a reliable narrator. But there are hints through Priest's run that T'Chaka is not as noble as his son views him. The Hatut Zeraze and Hunter is the perfect example. T'Challa banned them because of their brutality. That brutality was something that existed during T'Chaka's rule. The only logical conclusion is T'Chaka used the Hatut Zeraze as a brutal secret police, much in the same way as these other dictators.[/QUOTE]
I think T'Chaka ' s depiction in Hickmans run sort of showed that side of him too.
But he's the ruler of a warrior nation so you almost have to assume that's the norm.
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Why don't T'Challa simply seek wisdom from the panthers before him, or did he lose that ability?
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[QUOTE=memnoch;2226286]Why don't T'Challa simply seek wisdom from the panthers before him, or did he lose that ability?[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure if he still has the ability or not, but in Hickmans run they sort of turned his back on him after he refused to use the bombs.
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It's funny that very few readers(not counting Unfans) if any had an issue with Wakanda and it's form of gov't in the past. Now Coates decides to write a very slanted story with a very stated agenda to question the very basis of Wakanda led by a half-hearted king who has no idea about his own country that he has successfully and benevolently ruled for decades and suddenly some are like "yeah!". It was T'Challa who brought Wakanda out of isolationism and had more interaction with the global community.
Now he's an irrational king desperately trying to hold on to power.
I have no issue with anyone who likes this story. I have an issue with the story, the subject and the writer who chose to do a story on the most base human failings and shortcomings. This story does not inspire me n the slightest. Female characters were treated with respect by prior writers so there is no history of misogyny in Wakanda. T'Challa has never been a dictator, inept or uninterested in being king and I don't see any history of this by past writers.
In otherwords, there is no foundation or basis for what Coates is telling us to believe. If the people of Wakanda are tired of being ruled by a monarchy, they show this by devolving into marauding bands of rapists, murderers and terrorists? This is how they want their democracy to run?
Does not compute.
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[QUOTE=memnoch;2226286]Why don't T'Challa simply seek wisdom from the panthers before him, or did he lose that ability?[/QUOTE]
Under Coates he has lost all abilities sans the sell out, I mean soul stalking and Farce Push. He's basically a idiot simpleton. <shrug>
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2226312]It's funny that very few readers(not counting Unfans) if any had an issue with Wakanda and it's form of gov't in the past. Now Coates decides to write a very slanted story with a very stated agenda to question the very basis of Wakanda led by a half-hearted king who has no idea about his own country that he has successfully and benevolently ruled for decades and suddenly some are like "yeah!". It was T'Challa who brought Wakanda out of isolationism and had more interaction with the global community.
Now he's an irrational king desperately trying to hold on to power.
I have no issue with anyone who likes this story. I have an issue with the story, the subject and the writer who chose to do a story on the most base human failings and shortcomings. This story does not inspire me n the slightest. Female characters were treated with respect by prior writers so there is no history of misogyny in Wakanda. T'Challa has never been a dictator, inept or uninterested in being king and I don't see any history of this by past writers.
In otherwords, there is no foundation or basis for what Coates is telling us to believe. If the people of Wakanda are tired of being ruled by a monarchy, they show this by devolving into marauding bands of rapists, murderers and terrorists? This is how they want their democracy to run?
Does not compute.[/QUOTE]
There were likely terrorists and rapists before people started being unhappy with T'challa. They're just not being held in check as well as in the past because Wakanda is in a state of decline. The people people complaining aren't the perpetrators of all that, they're the victims of it.
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Johns has BP pal around with dictator Doom
Hudlin has Tchaka meet up woth the Bilderburg group. A group of people who profit off the misery of mankind.
But Coates is the guy who isnt a fan of Black Panther......lol.
This tree is rotten.
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[SIZE=4]Facts over selective memory.[/SIZE]
[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/a3135j.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i67.tinypic.com/2s0zkty.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2226265][COLOR="#000000"]I would say it's on par with what was done with Tony Stark in Civil War and Cap in AvX.
2 of my favorite characters, T'Challa and Tony have been put through some pretty dubious shyte.
Btw, I liked your opening post on Sci-Fi and Afro-Futurism.
I'm a huge Sci-Fi guy myself, really liked Starlin's work on Captain Marvel and his run on Avengers. His METAMORPHOSIS ODYSSEY in Epic Illustrated and his later work on DREADSTAR are some of the greatest comic works imo. I have to ask you, have you read THE PRICE? That is one of the greatest stories that I have ever read. I also liked ALIEN LEGION and SIX FROM SIRIUS. I think I was buying just bout everything from Epic back then.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Thanks for the acknowledgement my brother. :cool:
I most definitely have read The Price. :)
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I'm honestly not sure I follow.
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[SIZE=4]Compare and contrast.
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/294kmzt.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i65.tinypic.com/2ch2pt2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/15y9kpx.jpg[/IMG]
Sometimes, it's best to just let the scans speak for themselves.
T'Chaka was invited to the Bilderberg meeting by Western powers who sought to exploit Wakanda and her resources.
He said what he had to say to them and bounced with his dignity intact.
All I see in the scans above, is T'Challa meeting up with powerful men of decidedly ill repute, who've been invited into Wajkanda to meet with him in an advisory capacity.
Since when has Wakanda had to rely on outsiders of this ilk, for advice?
[/SIZE]
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Wakanda is in a different position and it involved different people? In both cases, the King of Wakanda met with world leaders but, when Wakanda was in a position of strength, that meeting was extremely short while, in a different situation with a different King, they were allowed to speak before their comments were rejected?
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[QUOTE=HsssH;2224725]Well maybe not specifically into USA-type system, but don't you get the feeling that Coates really doesn't like monarchy and some underlying elements seam to hint at systemic changes to Wakanda?[/QUOTE]
I think there'll be some sort of shake up in the system of govt and BP may or may not remain king, but I don't think he'll do away with the whole structure or the royal family.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2226265][COLOR="#000000"]I would say it's on par with what was done with Tony Stark in Civil War and Cap in AvX.
2 of my favorite characters, T'Challa and Tony have been put through some pretty dubious shyte.
Btw, I liked your opening post on Sci-Fi and Afro-Futurism.
[B]I'm a huge Sci-Fi guy myself, really liked Starlin's work on Captain Marvel and his run on Avengers. His METAMORPHOSIS ODYSSEY in Epic Illustrated and his later work on DREADSTAR are some of the greatest comic works imo. I have to ask you, have you read THE PRICE? [/B]That is one of the greatest stories that I have ever read. I also liked ALIEN LEGION and SIX FROM SIRIUS. I think I was buying just bout everything from Epic back then.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
I remember that stuff. Now I feel old.:D I think Marvel is blowing a great opportunity by not reviving the Epic Line.
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[QUOTE=ed2962;2226465]I think there'll be some sort of shake up in the system of govt and BP may or may not remain king, but I don't think he'll do away with the whole structure or the royal family.[/QUOTE]
My suggestion is to bring back the Wakandan Parliament that was dissolved in issue 18 of Priest's run and (to my knowledge) has never come back. Make it a more democratic institution. Keep the King as the head of state, but have a Prime Minister who exercises day-to-day of rule. Have Shuri become the first Prime Minister.
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[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;2226514]My suggestion is to bring back the Wakandan Parliament that was dissolved in issue 18 of Priest's run and (to my knowledge) has never come back. Make it a more democratic institution. Keep the King as the head of state, but have a Prime Minister who exercises day-to-day of rule. Have Shuri become the first Prime Minister.[/QUOTE]
I remember T'Challa (I think) dissolving it, but it was never brought back?
There was the Wakandan council during the Kasper Cole stories, if I remember correctly. There definitely was one during the Hudlin run. Is the council a different governing body than the one dissolved in #18?