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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1733808]Initially didn't like Shuri at all because she screwed up with teh continuity of things, then I found out the original arc of Hudlin's run was supposed to be a mini. The character grew on me with the "Back to Africa" arc and I became a full on fan with the "Deadliest of the Species" arc.
T'Challa was always referred to as Black Panther and as King T'Challa. The whole thing was literally done just to elevate Shuri and T'Challa wasn't hurt by that in the process.
The only thing that hurt T'Challa in recent years was a lack of support overall by editors, a dumb premise of him being in Hell's Kitchen, the destruction of his marriage by selfish X-writers, and writers continually destroying Wakanda and insisting that Wakanda should continually "turn the other cheek".[/QUOTE]
[B]QFT. It was especially annoying when readers started chiming in about Wakanda looking the other way[/B]
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[QUOTE=XPac;1733821]I suspect the idea was actually to take the place of vibranium. Since Wakanda lost it's cool thing, Maeberry just introduced another cool thing they could have.
Since vibranium returned, there ended up with a net gain of cool things.[/QUOTE]
[B]I feel someone needs to cut loose and go wild in what all can be done with Vibranium and Shadow Physics[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;1733827][B]QFT. It was especially annoying when readers started chiming in about Wakanda looking the other way[/B][/QUOTE]
If I see that "turn the other cheek" stuff for Wakanda one more time...
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1733808]Initially didn't like Shuri at all because she screwed up with teh continuity of things, then I found out the original arc of Hudlin's run was supposed to be a mini. The character grew on me with the "Back to Africa" arc and I became a full on fan with the "Deadliest of the Species" arc.
T'Challa was always referred to as Black Panther and as King T'Challa. The whole thing was literally done just to elevate Shuri and T'Challa wasn't hurt by that in the process.
The only thing that hurt T'Challa in recent years was a lack of support overall by editors, a dumb premise of him being in Hell's Kitchen, the destruction of his marriage by selfish X-writers, and writers continually destroying Wakanda and insisting that Wakanda should continually "turn the other cheek".[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i63.tinypic.com/1zp71gx.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1733820]That whole event (AxV) was just....ugh.[/QUOTE]
It was contrived BS on all levels yet one rarely see's any of the writers responsible called out for writing one of the most disrespectful breakups of all time (post OMD) in much the same way as Hudlin who carried the lions share alongside Dwayne McDuffie and to a lesser degree, David Liss, of portraying the marriage properly.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1733808]Initially didn't like Shuri at all because she screwed up with teh continuity of things, then I found out the original arc of Hudlin's run was supposed to be a mini. The character grew on me with the "Back to Africa" arc and I became a full on fan with the "Deadliest of the Species" arc.
T'Challa was always referred to as Black Panther and as King T'Challa. The whole thing was literally done just to elevate Shuri and T'Challa wasn't hurt by that in the process.
The only thing that hurt T'Challa in recent years was a lack of support overall by editors, a dumb premise of him being in Hell's Kitchen, the destruction of his marriage by selfish X-writers, and writers continually destroying Wakanda and insisting that Wakanda should continually "turn the other cheek".[/QUOTE]
He was referred to as bp but he shouldnt have been. He should hace been depowered but he wasnt maybe kinda sorta. It was just weird transition period
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1733476][SIZE=3]
Yet he was able to build a life raft to save his ass alongside a few other chosen few.
It amazes me how some remain oblivious to the level of abject fail that preceded T'Challa's introduction to Secret Wars II. LOL!
Here we have T'Challa subtley correcting the Wakandan youths (who mistakenly referred to him as being their "king") as to his actual status as Lord of the Necropolis....
[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/1zq9elk.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/nd76vl.jpg[/IMG]
Only for the selfsame KOTD to time/reality jump himself to just before the first Incursion to reintroduce himself as....
[B]
King of Wakanda.[/B]
[IMG]http://i65.tinypic.com/20h5vp.jpg[/IMG]
Way to alter reality and throw your sister under the bus, dude.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
Just looked at the scans again...looks like he may already be King from the jump. I didn't even notice that.
I hope we get an explanation on how that came about and what happened to Shuri.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1733797][SIZE=3]
PIS from a horribly contrived event that had T'Challa joining up with the same Avengers who left him high and dry during [B]Doomwar[/B] to go poke his nose into the business of the X-Men who alongside the Fantastic Four and Jim Rhodes, actually helped T'Challa, Ororo and Shuri in their battle against Doom.
One couldn't even make this crap up even if one tried.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
Well, he wasnt poking his nose in x business... he was poking his nose in "cosmic force which destroys planets" business. Tchalla AND Shuri should poke theur nose in stuff like that
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1733857]Just looked at the scans again...looks like he may already be King from the jump. I didn't even notice that.
I hope we get an explanation on how that came about and what happened to Shuri.[/QUOTE]
Bro, I take my time to really look at what's on the page before coming on here to post.
That switcheoo in dialogue was the first thing I noticed when I read SW#9 but it would appear that because of the similarity in panels, most readers would miss the subtle change.
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do you guys want t'challa to be greifing cause of reed
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Has anyone straight up asked ewing on twitter or tom on formspring bout the king thing?
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733870]do you guys want t'challa to be greifing cause of reed[/QUOTE]
What is there to grieve? He is playing god with his family?
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733870]do you guys want t'challa to be greifing cause of reed[/QUOTE]
Nope.
Reed Richards is still alive and well with his family building new realities.
If anything, he should be grieving over the sister his stupidity (apparently) killed just so he could be King of Wakanda again.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1733879]What is there to grieve? He is playing god with his family?[/QUOTE]
does t'challa know what reed, franklin and owen are doing?
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1733808]Initially didn't like Shuri at all because she screwed up with teh continuity of things, then I found out the original arc of Hudlin's run was supposed to be a mini. The character grew on me with the "Back to Africa" arc and I became a full on fan with the "Deadliest of the Species" arc.
T'Challa was always referred to as Black Panther and as King T'Challa. The whole thing was literally done just to elevate Shuri and T'Challa wasn't hurt by that in the process.
The only thing that hurt T'Challa in recent years was a lack of support overall by editors, a dumb premise of him being in Hell's Kitchen, the destruction of his marriage by selfish X-writers, and writers continually destroying Wakanda and insisting that Wakanda should continually "turn the other cheek".[/QUOTE]
Pretty much this.
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[QUOTE=Random4;1733887]does t'challa know what reed, franklin and owen are doing?[/QUOTE]
It really wouldn't be hard to contact him, seeing how T'Challa already has his team reaching the outskirts of the multiverse and beyond.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1733901]Pretty much this.[/QUOTE]
Kasper Cole has the truth of it.
I've had no problem admitting that I too, (in my less enlightened days) was one of those who hated Shuri's introduction to the BP mythos before I eventually woke up and smelt the coffee of the possibilities her coming on the scene, created for BP mythos expansion.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1733885]Nope.
Reed Richards is still alive and well with his family building new realities.
If anything, he should be grieving over the sister his stupidity (apparently) killed just so he could be King of Wakanda again.[/QUOTE]
Man, why do you even come here? Yeesh
Yep, tchalla used the reality gem to bring everything back, including the fodder kids, but left his sister dead bc he wanted a bigger chair. Sounds logical. Time to let more hate flow!
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[url]http://digitalpriest.com/legacy/comics/panther/start.html[/url]
Just in case anyone's interested, it's Christopher Priest's old site (linked to a current one). Talks about the Black Panther run quite a bit, but it's not all there (it ends at issue 48, which of course is not where the book ended). Also talks about a bunch of other stuff if interested, along with a hilarious bio page filled with typical Priest wit.
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I do want to see T'Challa's relationships with other Avengers explored a bit, but I also want to his his relationships with guys like W'Kabi, Taku, Zuri, N'Gassi, and Shuri developed more.
One of the reasons I hope to see M'Baku come back is because he and T'Challa used to be best friends. I've always wanted to see their friendship and how it eventually deteriorated.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1733950]I do want to see T'Challa's relationships with other Avengers explored a bit, but I also want to his his relationships with guys like W'Kabi, Taku, Zuri, N'Gassi, and Shuri developed more.
One of the reasons I hope to see M'Baku come back is because he and T'Challa used to be best friends. I've always wanted to see their friendship and how it eventually deteriorated.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Unfortunately, that'll take another run on the title besides Coates. Since M'Baku definitely won't be there.
The other supporting characters hopefully will be.
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I understood from issue one, and continue to understand, that Hudlins first six were supposed to be a mini. I knew his intention as soon as I saw her on panel, and almost as soon wished he had introduced a female character that was not a sibling.
I've come to appreciate Shuri, but a strong wakandan love interest would have been my choice.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1733874]Has anyone straight up asked ewing on twitter or tom on formspring bout the king thing?[/QUOTE]
Not exactly the King thing, but I did ask Coates if Shuri was alive in his run. Others did the same. No answer so far.
Someone did ask Breevort the same thing. His response (I'm paraphrasing): we shall see!
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1733907]Kasper Cole has the truth of it.
I've had no problem that I too, was one of those who hated Shuri's introduction to the BP mythos before I woke up and smelt the coffee of BP mythos expansion.[/QUOTE]
I saw it as a good thing. In the end Shuri turned out to be another strong minority female, something that we need more of.
[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1733950]I do want to see T'Challa's relationships with other Avengers explored a bit, but I also want to his his relationships with guys like W'Kabi, Taku, Zuri, N'Gassi, and Shuri developed more.
One of the reasons I hope to see M'Baku come back is because he and T'Challa used to be best friends. I've always wanted to see their friendship and how it eventually deteriorated.[/QUOTE]
I'd like to see that as well as the development of the other countries surrounding Wakanda. Some of these countries should benefit directly or indirectly from being located near such an advanced nation.
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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;1733997]I saw it as a good thing. In the end Shuri turned out to be another strong minority female, something that we need more of.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. And a well-needed boost to the BP supporting cast.
[QUOTE]I'd like to see that as well as the development of the other countries surrounding Wakanda. Some of these countries should benefit directly or indirectly from being located near such an advanced nation.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't get discussed much. The most we got was Niganda in the Hudlin, and refugees from another nation in the Priest run, I believe.
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1733957]I understood from issue one, and continue to understand, that Hudlins first six were supposed to be a mini. I knew his intention as soon as I saw her on panel, and almost as soon wished he had introduced a female character that was not a sibling.
I've come to appreciate Shuri, but a strong wakandan love interest would have been my choice.[/QUOTE]
If Hudlin knew at the time the kind of push back he would've gotten for the Storm marriage, maybe he would've made adjustment and have a Wakandan love interest?
Hindsight is 20/20 of course.
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In a bid to continue directing discussion away from much trod upon topics, I wanted to hit everyone up regarding a ... change in divine sponsorship, as it were.
We're all well aware the Panther God was defined as Bast in the Marvel comics. I'm not entirely sure if this started under Hickman or if it came before him (Despite Moon Knight and Black Panther teaming up, the impetus for that was apparently based more on character design than an inherent shared pantheon and Priest made note that Mephisto didn't even believe in the Panther God prior to facing T'Challa, which either implies he didn't believe in the Egyptian Gods or that it was a retcon as I privately believe.
Anyway...
We're all aware that this is the case, and while I personally favour the Panther God (much like the White Gorilla God) being part of a completely original pantheon (especially as we have the were-panther influence which is shared in part by were-hyenas of Ethiopian lore), the existence of a Lion God (Sekhmet since earlier memory) and a Crocodile God (Sobek, introduced during a later run, IIRC) makes this more difficult. Even though there's also reference to the Spider God Anansi of West Africa from much older comics (Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man v1 #2), by and large there has been a general Egyptification trend for Wakanda's mythology. Which I find boring, but have tried to comprise on.
And by compromise, I mean by adopting certain earlier gods of Egyptian identification that aren't as well remembered due to the many evolutions of Egyptian faith over the centuries and millennia.
As an alternate to Bast, I suggest instead [B]Mafdet[/B].
Mafdet (also spelled Maftet) was a feline goddess that preceded Bast and Sekhmet in Egyptian mythology (having come as early as the First Dynasty) and was identified as the goddess of judgement, justice and execution. Depicted variously as cats like leopards, lynxes, mongooses and panthers, she was known to protect against snakes and scorpions and was associated with the protection of the king's chambers and other sacred places. That last was so because in Egyptian mythology she was depicted as the protector of Ra whose weaknesses included snakebites and scorpion stings.
Her known titles include[B] “Lady of the House of Life”[/B], [B]“Slayer of Serpents”[/B], and the [B]“Great Cat"[/B], and her name itself meant “she who runs”, thus earning her the epithet “the runner” relating to her swift execution of justice. She was also known as [B]"Avenger of the King" [/B]because of her role as goddess of execution, reputed to rip out the hearts of wrongdoers. During the era of the New Kingdom, she is seen to be ruling over the judgment hall of Duat, aka the Egyptian realm of the dead of which Osiris ruled over. There, her sharp claws are used in the execution of rebels and enemies by decapitation.
So... to sum her up. She's a pretty fierce feline goddess whose roots go as far back as Egypt's most earliest national unification (+5,000 years ago as of 2016), who was later replaced by other goddesses like Bast and Sekhmet. She bears the panther as a depiction, was associated with defending the Ruler of Existence (who himself grew in prominence only after the Second Dynasty) and had close ties to judgement, justice and execution, all duties expected of a Black Panther. Plus, involvement with a realm of dead, which sounds a little bit familiar to the Necropolis...
I'm just saying, it's not entirely unreasonable to depict the Panther God as Madfet rather than Bast, and depict her place in Egyptian mythology (a civilization younger than Wakanda if we go by the 10,000 year mark) as an alliance between the Gods of Egypt & Wakanda (hence Moon Knight's friendliness to Black Panther despite being an acolyte of Khonsu) that eventually gave way to the next guy on the list.
All right, so that's the first one I plotted out.
The next...
Well, the next is [B]Maahes[/B], my suggested replacement to Sekhmet as the Lion God of Wakanda and in some ways a successor to Mafdet in the later dynasties of Egypt.
Maahes is actually a curiosity in Egyptian mythology, because his roots are vague and suspected to be drawn from a Nubian war-god called [B]Apedemak[/B]. Called variously Mihos, Miysis, Mios, Maihes or Mahes, his name directly translates as “(one who can) see in front” or “he who is true beside her”. Maahes was a solar war god whose personification was that of a Lion, and earned sobriquets such as [B]“The Lord of the Massacre” [/B](his usual reference rather than his actual name), as well as [B]"Wielder of the Knife"[/B], [B]"The Scarlet Lord"[/B] and [B]"The Lord of Slaughter"[/B].
All in all, the sort of war-like god that fits in some ways the depictions currently attributed to Sekhmet as Lion God of Wakanda. However, there is also strong elements of more noble characteristics in play, as he was also known [B]“Avenger of Wrongs” [/B]and [B]“Helper of the Wise Ones”[/B], owing to his role as a guardian of sacred places and a protector of the innocent. A proactive god in many ways, which fits in with him appearing to his followers directly, in comparison to Mafdet's identification with kings... see where I'm going with this?
He also held some role in regards to weather (beyond his portfolios of protection and war), being identified quite strongly with knives, lotuses and devouring captives.
In Egyptian mythology he was identified as a son of either Bastet or Sekhmet with his father being either Ptah or Raw, with close association to Nefertum (son of Bast and Sekhemet) besides. This disagreement of parentage is a geographical one, as those who believed it was Bast were of course from Lower Egypt and Sekhmet's supporters were from Upper Egypt. Meanwhile the daddy difficulties are due to whoever was identified as the chief male deity, because Egypt. As a son of Ra, Maahes was said to fight the serpent god Apep, a role which was previously covered by the likes of Mafdet above. As a son of Ptah, we don't know that much.
But overall, what we do get here is something of a contender or a rival for Mafdet, one sired by her successor feline goddesses in Bast and Sekhmet. One known to be very warlike, very protective and proactive and involved to a degree in weather. All in all a good trifecta in a portfolio that would appeal to the Wakandans in many ways, including both farmers and warriors.
I would reinterpret him in the MCU as a Wakandan god with Egyptian presence much like Mafdet, but I would add in a caveat of a friendship with the Egyptian god Nefertum (historically they were associated, and Nefertum was the son of Bast and Sekhemet) and ties to Bast and Sekhmet, much to the displeasure of Mafdet. As Mafdet's influence over Wakanda grew through the Black Panther Cult, the two gods found themselves at odds, with Maahes eventually losing out much like the other Gods of Wakanda.
Dunno, what do you guys think?
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1733993]Not exactly the King thing, but I did ask Coates if Shuri was alive in his run. Others did the same. No answer so far.
Someone did ask Breevort the same thing. His response (I'm paraphrasing): we shall see![/QUOTE]
Has anyone asked post sw9?
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1734027]Indeed. And a well-needed boost to the BP supporting cast.
That doesn't get discussed much. The most we got was Niganda in the Hudlin, and refugees from another nation in the Priest run, I believe.[/QUOTE]
Ghuduza, I believe. Home country of Achebe, possibly. Other countries rarely used include Princess Zandia's vaguely Islamic emirate, Mbangwai (which should be key, IMO), Azania and then a couple of other small neighbouring states.
For a while, I struggled between either trying to world-build the Black Panther mythology a little more or trying to piece together what little elements there exist to do a "Marvel Africa" concept.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1734032]If Hudlin knew at the time the kind of push back he would've gotten for the Storm marriage, maybe he would've made adjustment and have a Wakandan love interest?
Hindsight is 20/20 of course.[/QUOTE]
Except it was only supposed to be six issues. No long term plans when he started. But yes, 20/20
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[QUOTE=MouserGrey;1734053]Except it was only supposed to be six issues. No long term plans when he started. But yes, 20/20[/QUOTE]
Well, once he knew he had an ongoing, he made the decision to pair storm and BP together. It's fair to assume he didn't expect the push back that would come with that. If he did, who knows, maybe he goes with someone else, whether it be another superhero or a wakandan love interest specifically.
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The reason I reacted poorly, at first, to the recon of Shuri, was I had a gut feeling she would be a legacy character. I prefer characters connected a mythos, but not an inheritor. If that makes sense. Doc Sampson type over Red Hulk type. Again, I like Shuri now, but because of the type character she is, and I would feel the same if she had been a brother, we have our fan base sniping at each other over who is better or right for the mantle and some who have given up entirely on T"Challa. Not that I predicted all the bs the mythos has gone through the last years, but, let's face it, BP has always need all the support he can get. And as a character with as limited exposure he's gotten over the decades I just felt at the time he could not afford to lose his mantle. It's all on panel since.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1733911]Man, why do you even come here? Yeesh
Yep, tchalla used the reality gem to bring everything back, including the fodder kids, but left his sister dead bc he wanted a bigger chair. Sounds logical. Time to let more hate flow![/QUOTE]
Yeah, I think it's pretty unlikely T'Challa did anything to get the big chair. Really he could have had the title back when Bast offered him the King of the Dead thing if he wanted it.
But quite honestly Shuri was just keeping it warm for him the entire time.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1733950]I do want to see T'Challa's relationships with other Avengers explored a bit, but I also want to his his relationships with guys like W'Kabi, Taku, Zuri, N'Gassi, and Shuri developed more.
One of the reasons I hope to see M'Baku come back is because he and T'Challa used to be best friends. I've always wanted to see their friendship and how it eventually deteriorated.[/QUOTE]
M'Baku definitely needs to come back and since T'Challa was able to bury the hatchet with Namor, there's ZERO reason for him to have problems patching up with his old friend.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1733956]Agreed. Unfortunately, that'll take another run on the title besides Coates. Since M'Baku definitely won't be there.
The other supporting characters hopefully will be.[/QUOTE]
I definately loved the idea of M'Baku and T'Challa being best friends. It has almost an Xavier/Magneto thing to it... which IMO is nice.
Hopefully M'Baku will get some love down the line.
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I don't think Shuri is dead. She's probably not ruler, because of the movie and the fact that T'challa being king is actually a thing that Marvel wants to push.
In FF issues, Bast makes it clear that T'challa is her chosen, period. We can use that to make it make sense.
SW was a huge typical b.s let down with regards to T'challa. Smh, its always the same typical bull ****.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1733911]Man, why do you even come here? Yeesh
[/QUOTE]
Because this thread is ostensibly about Black Panther Appreciation.
T'Challa isn't the only individual to rock the Black Panther mantle so I'm under ZERO obligation to "appreciate" his character as depicted by Hickman.
You do have the option to keep it moving when you come across my posts or just engage the ignore function rather than subjecting yourself to the "agony" of experiencing said posts.
That would be the mature thing to do. :cool:
[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/15i9krc.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1734120]M'Baku definitely needs to come back and since T'Challa was able to bury the hatchet with Namor, there's ZERO reason for him to have problems patching up with his old friend.[/QUOTE]
Well from what we've been shown for the most part M'Baku has been the one holding the grudge. The only incident where T'Challa showed the slightest bit of animus towards M'Baku was when he outlawed teh Jabari tribe and most of that was chalked up to the brain aneurysm he had.
If someone was to show us their friendship again it'd have ot be in flashbacks or a story would have to show M'Baku letting go of the grudge.
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[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1734052]Ghuduza, I believe. Home country of Achebe, possibly. Other countries rarely used include Princess Zandia's vaguely Islamic emirate, Mbangwai (which should be key, IMO), Azania and then a couple of other small neighbouring states.
For a while, I struggled between either trying to world-build the Black Panther mythology a little more or trying to piece together what little elements there exist to do a "Marvel Africa" concept.[/QUOTE]
I am with you on replacing Bast. I rather see a completely different mythology unique to Wakanda.Add a bit more mystery to the character.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1734159]Well from what we've been shown for the most part M'Baku has been the one holding the grudge. The only incident where T'Challa showed the slightest bit of animus towards M'Baku was when he outlawed teh Jabari tribe and most of that was chalked up to the brain aneurysm he had.
If someone was to show us their friendship again it'd have ot be in flashbacks or a story would have to show M'Baku letting go of the grudge.[/QUOTE]
The fact that T'Challa invited M'Baku to his wedding says a lot. And since M'Baku didn't use it as any sort of attempt at doing anything particularly villainous (apart from perhaps sabotaging the reception by consuming all the boo's) to some degree an olive branch is definately out there.
But similar to Xavier and Magneto, the issues aren't just personal but idealogical so they will likely always be in conflict unless one decides to abandon their beliefs.
Still, regardless of whether they become BFF's again or not there's definately a lot to play with there.