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[QUOTE=XPac;1739359]That's part of the double edged sword of Hudlin's retcon.
In a lot of ways it does make more sense. HOWEVER, it forced him and other writers to try and justify why Wakanda never bothered helping out it's neighors. The books have always made it clear they're isolationist... but that's where we get stuff like Wakanda withholding the cure from cancer. That's where we get Hickman deciding that they're not exactly charitable to their neighbors.
Obviously the super hero genra HAS to work that way... you can't have marvel fixing real life problems, because then the world stops looking like the one outside our window. But anytime you try and explore those sort of themes, it inevitably makes a lot of people look BAD.[/QUOTE]
I mean, there was a way around it. As Kasper said, they could have tried to help out covertly. Maybe show why it didn't work (like how colonizers essentially became the system by sheer unrelenting force, or how some decided to work with colonists, etc.), or better yet, where it did (remember Wakanda isn't the only fictional African nation).
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1739349]That, or the current (BP) writers could simply do their research.[/QUOTE]
No, i think you would have to really be immersed in the culture.
You arent gonna change 35 years of thinking around with 2 weeks if "research." Where would you even start? Africa is gigantic with the longest history in the world. It would take a college class to touch the surface
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[QUOTE=Moose100;1739358]Less popular characters have gotten 2X more..[/QUOTE]
Please elaborate. I am trying to tjink of other heroes that may have a similar design as BP and all i got off the top of my head is Iron Fist
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1739377]No, i think you would have to really be immersed in the culture.
You arent gonna change 35 years of thinking around with 2 weeks if "research." Where would you even start? Africa is gigantic with the longest history in the world. It would take a college class to touch the surface[/QUOTE]
Alot of writers in different mediums have no problem with these issues because of research. I just think it's a cop out to put it all on writers of color indigenous peoples. There is something to be said about allowing writers of color but that doesn't mean laziness of writers shouldn't be off the hook.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1739381]Please elaborate. I am trying to tjink of other heroes that may have a similar design as BP and all i got off the top of my head is Iron Fist[/QUOTE]
I was pointing to "popular" or even just as popular characters have gotten a bigger push. Or In terms of editorial initiatives like an IF or a Moon Knight.
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[QUOTE=Double 0;1739370]I mean, there was a way around it. As Kasper said, they could have tried to help out covertly. Maybe show why it didn't work (like how colonizers essentially became the system by sheer unrelenting force, or how some decided to work with colonists, etc.), or better yet, where it did (remember Wakanda isn't the only fictional African nation).[/QUOTE]
They could try and work around it... but again I think the books to a degree already gave an explanation... they're isolationists. And writers just sort of went with that.
But of course that doesn't mean there aren't some BPs in the past like Wakanda who didn't try and do more. If there's ever some sort of platform to tell those sort of stories I suppose they can. Maybe back up stories or annuals or whatever.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1739377]No, i think you would have to really be immersed in the culture.
You arent gonna change 35 years of thinking around with 2 weeks if "research." Where would you even start? Africa is gigantic with the longest history in the world. It would take a college class to touch the surface[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't expect a non-African to get the inner workings of "African" culture within a few weeks or even a few months, that's highly unlikely, if not outright impossible. But there are small, basic things that should be done to show that they are indeed African. Small example that was previously mentioned was how Wakandans dress. They shouldn't be dressed up like greeks. And so on. For the details, subtle stuff and nitty gritty, definitely an African writer best suited for that.
One thing that would definitely help is Marvel defining exactly where Wakanda is located. That would help narrow down what kind of culture Wakanda has.
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[QUOTE=Moose100;1739389]Alot of writers in different mediums have no problem with these issues because of research. I just think it's a cop out to put it all on writers of color indigenous peoples. There is something to be said about allowing writers of color but that doesn't mean laziness of writers shouldn't be off the hook.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, its really not that hard. Sure, a non-African wouldn't know the inner workings that only an African would know, but there's a lot of data, both online and off, that one can look into.
If I were to write a story about japanese characters, I would def do some research, especially if the setting is in Japan.
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I think i have lost somewhere what exactly yall are talking about.
Can some post a BP scan showing whar you mean exactly ie writer not doing enough research on Africa.
Ill go back and read the posts again, i think i misread sometjing but pictures can clarify.
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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;1739410]Exactly, its really not that hard. Sure, a non-African wouldn't know the inner workings that only an African would know, but there's a lot of data, both online and off, that one can look into.
If I was to write a story about japanese characters, I would def do some research, especially if the setting is in Japan.[/QUOTE]
Research is like just one of those things that writers DO. It's expected but for some reason in these modes of conversation somehow it becomes out of the question or optional. It's a head scratcher.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1739420]I think i have lost somewhere what exactly yall are talking about.
Can some post a BP scan showing whar you mean exactly ie writer not doing enough research on Africa.
Ill go back and read the posts again, i think i misread sometjing but pictures can clarify.[/QUOTE]
my original post made me think of when Black Panther first got the King of the Dead powers and they showed some of the panthers of the past. The King of the Dead concept was cool to me, but it did irk me to see panthers look very westernized.
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[QUOTE=Moose100;1739423]Research is like just one of those things that writers DO. It's expected but for some reason in these modes of conversation somehow it becomes out of the question or optional. It's a head scratcher.[/QUOTE]
Ha!
Sorry, couldn't help myself. Comic writers, with few exceptions of late, can't be bothered to research a single character's last appearance. We are in the age of the lazy.
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[QUOTE=neohuey89;1739429]my original post made me think of when Black Panther first got the King of the Dead powers and they showed some of the panthers of the past. The King of the Dead concept was cool to me, but it did irk me to see panthers look very westernized.[/QUOTE]
I put things like that on the artists more so than the writers.
Most writers aren't very detailed in how certain characters dress unless it's important to the story.
Now something like a group of Wakandan Warriors being called "The Midnight Angels" is definitely on the writer. It'd make no sense for military group from an isolationist African nation with their own religion to call themselves "Angels"
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1739439]I put things like that on the artists more so than the writers.
Most writers aren't very detailed in how certain characters dress unless it's important to the story.
Now something like a group of Wakandan Warriors being called "The Midnight Angels" is definitely on the writer. It'd make no sense for military group from an isolationist African nation with their own religion to call themselves "Angels"[/QUOTE]
I wasn't really pointing the finger at anyone in particular, but I'd like to see more accurate portrayals or influences of people of color. Not because of political correctness, but there are infact cool things outside of generic western civilization.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1739439]I put things like that on the artists more so than the writers.
Most writers aren't very detailed in how certain characters dress unless it's important to the story.
Now something like a group of Wakandan Warriors being called "The Midnight Angels" is definitely on the writer. It'd make no sense for military group from an isolationist African nation with their own religion to call themselves "Angels"[/QUOTE]
Midnight Angels would've been fine if it were a loose translation of its Wakandan form. The "Midnight Angels" should've been in Wakandan, not english, just like the Dora Milaje and Hatute Zeraze.
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[QUOTE=Moose100;1739189]Wish he would come back.[/QUOTE]
Sal Velluto, I assume, correct?
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1739439]I put things like that on the artists more so than the writers.
Most writers aren't very detailed in how certain characters dress unless it's important to the story.
Now something like a group of Wakandan Warriors being called "The Midnight Angels" is definitely on the writer. It'd make no sense for military group from an isolationist African nation with their own religion to call themselves "Angels"[/QUOTE]
The US have named various air crafts Valkyries, which is a term from Norse mythology even though the US is largey judeo-Christian. I don't think there's any real meaning apart from it just sounding cool.
If the midnight Angels are fairly modern it could sort of be the same thing. Maybe someone in Wakanda decided Midnight Angels just sounds cool.
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I certainly agree with depictions of Wakandans with western looking influence in their dressing habits being lazy. But if Wakandan was truly so isolationist for 10,000 years then their own style would be influenced more by the climate of their geographical location and not by other cultures near them. They would have been the culture influencing style, if anything. Again, I suggest Japan as an example of a cultural example of centuries of self enforced isolation. And yet there are still some commonalities of artistic styles with their geographical neighbors when it comes to dress simply because of natural resources available and cultural aesthetics. Such a complex anthropological topic of discussion is cool, but with the limited attention the whole Wakandans mythos as a whole has gotten over the decades, and sucha recent addition of at least 6000 years to their history, we might have to forgive the writers for inaccuracies as they were probably focused on more comic booky stufg.
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As far as how Wakandans dress, at THIS point I think writers and artists are more concerned with consistancy than anything else because Wakanda's been published in marvel comics for decades. So I think most of their research really goes to making sure their Wakanda matches the Wakanda readers have seen in the past (though some tweaks are a given).
Because it's a fictional isolationist nation, to a degree at least the initial artists had a bit of leeway as far as deciding how people looked and dressed. And preceeding writers I think just followed suit.
Which isn't to say they can't try and bring more realism. But again as we're talking about a fictional isolationsist nation, I don't think accuracy is something they're necessarily going to to lose sleep over at this point. BUT if a given writer or artist want to actively try and move in that direction, more power to them. That sort of extra attention to detail is much appreciated.
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Marc Lamming posted this on Twitter and said it's for a project he has coming up.
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZDStBnWkAAH9No.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;1739128][SIZE=3]
It's also worth noting that both Priest's and Hudlin's respective iterations of Wakanda would never have turned their less fortunate neighbours away in times of need or impending threat to life and liberty which was a retcon that Hickman introduced into the BP mythos just to service his [B]Everything Dies/Time Runs Out[/B] saga whilst throwing Wakanda and her past rulers under the proverbial bus by casting them as callous entities only out for numero uno.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
... Majestik, what are you on about? Priest's [I][B]first [/B][/I]arc with Enemy of the State had Wakandans bitching about having to take care of Ghudazans refugees. Hudlin explicitly had Wakanda hold onto the cure for [B][I]cancer [/I][/B]out of some sense of spiritual superiority, and also had them be a 10,000 year old superpower that never involved themselves regarding the division of Africa by the European powers, or apartheid or anything else barring perhaps that arc with Niganda. Literally none of either man's writing had anything to do with greater Africa and by and large wasn't all that positive if done. The Pan-African Congress on the Treatment of Superhumans didn't result in anything. T'Challa funded Mutantes Sans Frontieres who then did a mission in Mbangwai, but that didn't end well.
While Hickman bloody well flanderized all the Black Panthers of the past to have them all form a consensus versus T'Challa, he certainly wasn't wrong regarding Wakandan sentiments to foreign adventures and actions. The only cases we have of Wakandan action abroad have always sprung from T'Challa, and have either been at odds with the Wakandan People or the Panther God. Sturm un Drag? The Azanian Crisis? T'Challa's constant adventures abroad? That time T'Challa just about plunged the global economy into chaos by nationalizing all the Wakandan firms?
No, it's clear that much like many other countries in the world, the Wakandans are bloody well happy to leave well enough alone and be left alone when it comes to the greater political stage. It's not a sin to wish so, but let's not pretend it makes them angels either.
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They should get Ben Caldwell to redesign Wakanda. He has training in history, which he used fantastically in his designs for Wednesday Comics: Wonder Woman. He methodically broke down everything about their culture from style of dress to foods to types of script to climate to history, everything. And it was all both perfectly logical and beautiful to look at. Shame they didn't let him do the full story or approve his manga version of the character. But seeing as WW is DC's closest counterpart to BP, and he did an incredible job making the society make sense, in think he'd be great! And with A-Force he's in the Marvel fold now!
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I wonder if Wakanda should have more of an Egyptian influence since they worship an Egyptian god (for whatever reason).
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[QUOTE=Holt;1739523]Marc Lamming posted this on Twitter and said it's for a project he has coming up.
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZDStBnWkAAH9No.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
They both have swords?
If we're talking about gladiator combat I want the other person to have a trident and a net.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1739539]I wonder if Wakanda should have more of an Egyptian influence since they worship an Egyptian god (for whatever reason).[/QUOTE]
That wouldn't really make sense. They've been isolationist for too long and are further south, fully in Sub-Saharan Africa. I think it's more likely that the God itself would have spread around and be worshipped by multiple cultures, but the architecture/clothing/the like wouldn't have carried as strongly.
But more than that, I think using Bast is just lazy. They could have created a unique Wakandan deity, but instead picked the most generic cat god in fiction and slapped it on a culture that is pretty damn removed from it. It's sloppy and equates all of Africa with Egypt when it's really at the fringes of it.
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Wakanda doesn't have to be 100% realistic considering that it's a pulp/sci-fi fictional city, but research on the parts of the writers and artists on what actual African cultures look like couldn't hurt. I'd put some of the responsibility on the editors as well. If the artists turns in a drawing of T'Challa's court and it's dudes in Tarzan loincloths, it's his job to say, "Hey, do this over..."
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Well again, if there's one thing Coates is better than than any of Marvel staff right now, it's doing research. So I've got faith in him.
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Can someone please post BP scans on what you are speaking of?
Not being a dick at all.. trying to actually learn something
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[QUOTE=MrHashasheen;1739528]... Majestik, what are you on about? Priest's [I][B]first [/B][/I]arc with Enemy of the State had Wakandans bitching about having to take care of Ghudazans refugees. Hudlin explicitly had Wakanda hold onto the cure for [B][I]cancer [/I][/B]out of some sense of spiritual superiority, and also had them be a 10,000 year old superpower that never involved themselves regarding the division of Africa by the European powers, or apartheid or anything else barring perhaps that arc with Niganda. Literally none of either man's writing had anything to do with greater Africa and by and large wasn't all that positive if done. The Pan-African Congress on the Treatment of Superhumans didn't result in anything. T'Challa funded Mutantes Sans Frontieres who then did a mission in Mbangwai, but that didn't end well.
While Hickman bloody well flanderized all the Black Panthers of the past to have them all form a consensus versus T'Challa, he certainly wasn't wrong regarding Wakandan sentiments to foreign adventures and actions. The only cases we have of Wakandan action abroad have always sprung from T'Challa, and have either been at odds with the Wakandan People or the Panther God. Sturm un Drag? The Azanian Crisis? T'Challa's constant adventures abroad? That time T'Challa just about plunged the global economy into chaos by nationalizing all the Wakandan firms?
No, it's clear that much like many other countries in the world, the Wakandans are bloody well happy to leave well enough alone and be left alone when it comes to the greater political stage. It's not a sin to wish so, but let's not pretend it makes them angels either.[/QUOTE]
Nice post, well said
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One reason I'd like Neil Gaiman to write a 12 limited on Wakanda is to flesh it out i. The solid,mystical, magical way he has. Just to fill in some gaps no one else might care to cover.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1739634]Can someone please post BP scans on what you are speaking of?
Not being a dick at all.. trying to actually learn something[/QUOTE]
Now why in the world would anyone want to do this bud?
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[QUOTE=Moose100;1739749]Now why in the world would anyone want to do this bud?[/QUOTE]
I figured it would take a quick google image search to clarify what writers keep messing up in their non researched, americanized vantage point of an african nation?
But, if not, carry on then.
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[QUOTE=XPac;1739482]The US have named various air crafts Valkyries, which is a term from Norse mythology even though the US is largey judeo-Christian. I don't think there's any real meaning apart from it just sounding cool.
If the midnight Angels are fairly modern it could sort of be the same thing. Maybe someone in Wakanda decided Midnight Angels just sounds cool.[/QUOTE]
That's another one of those Fantastic Four type reaches. You'd have more of a point if the U.S. was naming their warships after Egyptian or Islamic Gods, but they're not and they're not going to any time soon.
That's the type of thing that people are talking about when they say they don't want wankanda idolizing and borrowing things from the west. Wakanda feel their culture is superior to the rest of the world, so the women of the Wakandan military are unlike to want to represent their nation (which overseen by a god that they have proof exists) by naming one of their elite units "The midnight Angels".
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1739772]I figured it would take a quick google image search to clarify what writers keep messing up in their non researched, americanized vantage point of an african nation?
But, if not, carry on then.[/QUOTE]
They are messing up. The good thing about google is that anyone can use it.
I am willing however to give them a look if they try like with Coates writing BP. Not that anyone else has to.
But westernizing African characters is something that is media wide and not only specific to comics.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1739836]That's another one of those Fantastic Four type reaches. You'd have more of a point if the U.S. was naming their warships after Egyptian or Islamic Gods, but they're not and they're not going to any time soon.
That's the type of thing that people are talking about when they say they don't want wankanda idolizing and borrowing things from the west. Wakanda feel their culture is superior to the rest of the world, so the women of the Wakandan military are unlike to want to represent their nation (which overseen by a god that they have proof exists) by naming one of their elite units "The midnight Angels".[/QUOTE]
RIght the thing is the minute they start idolizing they stop being Wakanda. I wonder if some of these issues are built in b/c if you want him on the Avengers or what have you he'd mingle with the west to begin with.
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[QUOTE=Moose100;1739880]RIght the thing is the minute they start idolizing they stop being Wakanda. I wonder if some of these issues are built in b/c if you want him on the Avengers or what have you he'd mingle with the west to begin with.[/QUOTE]
Mingling isn't a problem. Economic, cultural or societal interactions are fine. The capital had a pizza parlor as far back as Don McGregor. It's when it's indistinguishable from New York that the problem really starts, when African customs, languages, names and culture is wholesale replaced by Western variations. The Midnight Angels name was stupid (especially since it was a super-duper sub-unit of the Dora Milaje, who themselves were the super-duper bodyguard unit), but it could have been used for something like a villain or an arc or an artifact. If I had to use it, I'd give it to Nakia (she of Priest creation) and maybe have it as either her alias (instead of Malice), or perhaps create an all-woman's villain team under her.
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1739836]That's another one of those Fantastic Four type reaches. You'd have more of a point if the U.S. was naming their warships after Egyptian or Islamic Gods, but they're not and they're not going to any time soon.
That's the type of thing that people are talking about when they say they don't want wankanda idolizing and borrowing things from the west. Wakanda feel their culture is superior to the rest of the world, so the women of the Wakandan military are unlike to want to represent their nation (which overseen by a god that they have proof exists) by naming one of their elite units "The midnight Angels".[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's that much of a reach that westernized american pop culture names, concepts refernces would sneak into even isolationship cultures over time (via music, television, etc especialy with the internet).
But yeah... they probably should have picked a more Wakandan sounding name.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1739772]I figured it would take a quick google image search to clarify what writers keep messing up in their non researched, americanized vantage point of an african nation?
But, if not, carry on then.[/QUOTE]
Well, stuff that comes immediately to my mind are images from Marvel comics from some years ago so that might not be entirely fair, but I think we're just speaking in general. Many times even in well meaning fiction, Africans are depicted as either noble savages, starving children, or despot warlords. And seeing as a lot of comic book writers don't even bother to research the heroes they're working on, it's not hard to image that happening to BP...I think most of us are saying that it's possible for someone to think they're doing something progressive yet still fall back on stereotypes
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;1739772]I figured it would take a quick google image search to clarify what writers keep messing up in their non researched, americanized vantage point of an african nation?
But, if not, carry on then.[/QUOTE]
Satirical take on this issue. Please watch.
How Not to Write About Africa - Binyavanga Wainaina
[url]https://youtu.be/c-jSQD5FVxE[/url]
[video=youtube;c-jSQD5FVxE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-jSQD5FVxE[/video]
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[QUOTE=Kasper Cole;1739836]You'd have more of a point if the U.S. was naming their warships after Egyptian or Islamic Gods, but they're not and they're not going to any time soon.[/QUOTE]
Islam has only one god, and it's pretty much the same one as the Judeo-Christian world. So unless the U.S. is naming it's warships after Jesus or Yahweh, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.