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^^ Ahhh, so the Doras [I]did[/I] leave b/c they simply agreed with Aneka's isolated brand of justice and not because there was some wide spread negligence by T'Challa or Wakandan men to over look serial rapists in powerful positions? No One Man really was just a Kanye verse that had no application?
So basically everything we were critical of was just bad writing that wasn't explained until 10 months later in poorly written side-book?
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2605078][SIZE=3]
Dropping the book would be the logical option methinks.
I just got done reading WOW #4.
It's dire.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
If the main BP book continued the way it was headed in BP #6 and #7, I would've dropped it. Not only was the writing in those two issues mediocre at best, they were very boring.
However, a few things happened:
-The writing improved a lot from #8 onward. Pacing got much better, overall portrayals got better (though that is obviously subjective), and the story finally seemed to be moving.
-My two favorite fictional characters are now alive. One of them (T'Challa) had a bad start, but is improving imho, albeit in a very, very, very slow (and somewhat frustrating) pace. The other (Shuri) has been portrayed very well so far, which I wasn't expecting.
When it comes to this book, I'm somewhat fortunate in which I don't have just one main hook that brings me to a BP book. I have two. And at least one of them is well portrayed and the other appears to be slowly heading towards something resembling a positive direction.
I don't love this run and I think this run has a lot of flaws that rightfully turned off a lot of people, flaws that I myself did not like either. But I don't hate this run either and it's finally showing signs of improvement. Thus, I continue to check out the book for the time being.
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[QUOTE=Rumble;2605235]^^ Ahhh, so the Doras [I]did[/I] leave b/c they simply agreed with Aneka's isolated brand of justice and not because there was some wide spread negligence by T'Challa or Wakandan men to over look serial rapists in powerful positions? No One Man really was just a Kanye verse that had no application?
So basically everything we were critical of was just bad writing that wasn't explained until 10 months later in poorly written side-book?[/QUOTE]
[B]Pretty much, it's made worse by how the whole thing with the chieftain goes down.
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ZhwcpGthYiJvBluISXXPpgJvnJGdz1NE8bTvwjx8zM3XwH2SQ9aqF1LNIVbEZlnVLhrFGJyIYasbJBAx7H64p26wXGv-TWs-E-j7E0ellBWtPsCRqTYAReCRgmYgUWTlxKap-w=s0[/IMG]
The captain of the Dora Milaje folks, unable to subdue an unarmed man and has horrible persuasion skills and uses lethal force first chance she gets. My I add that Priests 16 year old DMs were knocking thug's around left and right while getting shot at or stabbed at, fighting undead dudes and kicking ass while using non-lethal force? Hudlin's DM fought and beat up Black Widow and fought Doom bots.
Hell even Mayberrys DM fought mystic Vibranium powered Doom bots and held 30 thousand soldiers at bay for an hour despite being outnumbered 60 to 1. But the captain, the leader the supposed to be the best of the order, fails to bring in the chieftain because she ask him to surrender and he said no. The funny thing is her and Ayo take down the guy running up to the rally with a knife as he was heading for Shuri yet this guy gets speared for saying no? I mean yes the guy deserved it But there couldn't have been him grabbing one of the girls and trying to use her as a shield, forcing Anekas hand?
Poor writing and it pretty much Makes the rebellion and the fact that it works to some degree 100 times worse[/B]
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But he said "I think not!" Killing him was just self-defense! :P
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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;2605498]But he said "I think not!" Killing him was just self-defense! :P[/QUOTE]
and he DEFINITELY was reaching for something
Good lord. Its like Coates and Gay watched the news about a cop killing some black dude and went, "OMG THIS A GREAT STORY IDEA!"
The gist of it is.... Gay can't write comics. There were 15 ways you could have written this story to have Aneka come off at least a bit sympathetic and she didn't have the talent to do it.
Is that her fault? Or Marvel Editorial for hiring her based on a recommendation?
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2605401][B]Pretty much, it's made worse by how the whole thing with the chieftain goes down.
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ZhwcpGthYiJvBluISXXPpgJvnJGdz1NE8bTvwjx8zM3XwH2SQ9aqF1LNIVbEZlnVLhrFGJyIYasbJBAx7H64p26wXGv-TWs-E-j7E0ellBWtPsCRqTYAReCRgmYgUWTlxKap-w=s0[/IMG]
The captain of the Dora Milaje folks, unable to subdue an unarmed man and has horrible persuasion skills and uses lethal force first chance she gets. My I add that Priests 16 year old DMs were knocking thug's around left and right while getting shot at or stabbed at, fighting undead dudes and kicking ass while using non-lethal force? Hudlin's DM fought and beat up Black Widow and fought Doom bots.
Hell even Mayberrys DM fought mystic Vibranium powered Doom bots and held 30 thousand soldiers at bay for an hour despite being outnumbered 60 to 1. But the captain, the leader the supposed to be the best of the order, fails to bring in the chieftain because she ask him to surrender and he said no. The funny thing is her and Ayo take down the guy running up to the rally with a knife as he was heading for Shuri yet this guy gets speared for saying no? I mean yes the guy deserved it But there couldn't have been him grabbing one of the girls and trying to use her as a shield, forcing Anekas hand?
Poor writing and it pretty much Makes the rebellion and the fact that it works to some degree 100 times worse[/B][/QUOTE]
Anekas hand couldn't have been forced... she had to have crossed the line. If Anekas actions were justiable Ramonda wouldn't have allowed her execution verdict to stand. And if Anekas execution gimmick didn't stand, the MA wouldn't have rebelled and we wouldn't have a rebellion, which obviously was necessary for the story.
The MA are the antagonist in the main title ... their actions aren't necessarily supposed to be entirely justifiable. Had they actually been right in what they did, it would have made Ramonda look bad for not siding with them. But instead we got the natural order of things.... the protagonists did the right thing, the antagonist did the wrong thing and went on to do questionable things which end up in conflict with the protagonists.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2605608]and he DEFINITELY was reaching for something
Good lord. Its like Coates and Gay watched the news about a cop killing some black dude and went, "OMG THIS A GREAT STORY IDEA!"
The gist of it is.... Gay can't write comics. There were 15 ways you could have written this story to have Aneka come off at least a bit sympathetic and she didn't have the talent to do it.
Is that her fault? Or Marvel Editorial for hiring her based on a recommendation?[/QUOTE]
Weren't people (not necessarily you) complaining earlier in the run that Coates was making the MA too sympathetic? Like they were the heroes instead of T'Challa (a complaint which I never personally bought since I thought they were clearly hypocritical murdered from day one).
I think there is a degree of sympathy here in that she's murdering a rapist and saving these girls. A small degree. But given the point is that she ends up being the antagonist anyways I don't think readers not finding her sympathetic enough is a huge problem. Crossing the line is kind o the point of being an antagonist.
Hell, we wouldn't bat an eye if that was the Punisher and he's a good guy... sort of.
If I lived in the MU I'd want more Punisher style justice. Not saying it's lawful or moral... but I'd want it. Because it gets stuff done. The bad guys is dead and I'm safe. They won't come back next week as a super villain seeking revenge.... it's done. And in part at least I think that has to be appealing to the MA's followers... even though I still believe it's wrong.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2605626]
Hell, we wouldn't bat an eye if that was the Punisher and he's a good guy... sort of.
If I lived in the MU I'd want more Punisher style justice. Not saying it's lawful or moral... but I'd want it. Because it gets stuff done. The bad guys is dead and I'm safe. They won't come back next week as a super villain seeking revenge.... it's done. And in part at least I think that has to be appealing to the MA's followers... even though I still believe it's wrong.[/QUOTE]
The Punisher isn't a hypocrite though.
His fam got shot up by the mob and he didn't get up and go, "No One Italian!" He got up and said, "f it, die. you die. you die. you all die. die die die die die die die die die"
No remorse. No passing the buck. He gets confronted by cops, lawyers, super heroes and tells them to F off. Aneka and Ayo get confronted by Shuri and immediately go back to self preservation mode. What happened to "No One Man" yo? Oh thats right, you got threatened and started thinking about your own ass again lol. Suddenly that man ain't so bad.
If they turned Ayo and Aneka into the dynamic duo of death, who saw this camp and just said "f it" and went on a death spree killing bad guys... id roll with it lol.
But they turned a crime, then more crime, then covered it up with a movement that wasn't earned in the book.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2605669]The Punisher isn't a hypocrite though.
His fam got shot up by the mob and he didn't get up and go, "No One Italian!" He got up and said, "f it, die. you die. you die. you all die. die die die die die die die die die"
No remorse. No passing the buck. He gets confronted by cops, lawyers, super heroes and tells them to F off. Aneka and Ayo get confronted by Shuri and immediately go back to self preservation mode. What happened to "No One Man" yo? Oh thats right, you got threatened and started thinking about your own ass again lol. Suddenly that man ain't so bad.
If they turned Ayo and Aneka into the dynamic duo of death, who saw this camp and just said "f it" and went on a death spree killing bad guys... id roll with it lol.
But they turned a crime, then more crime, then covered it up with a movement that wasn't earned in the book.[/QUOTE]
Sure. And that's why Frank can still be a protagonist in a story, while the MA are antagonists.
There needed to be reason why we're not supposed to villainize Ramonda and the Wakandan goverment (and indirectly T'CHalla I guess) for sentencing Aneka to death for murdering a rapist and saving those women. We need them to not actually be right, otherwise they're not the antagonists anymore.
That's why I find it a little weird that people take issue with their actions not coming off more sympathetic or justifiable. To me I thought that was kind of the point.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2605686]Sure. And that's why Frank can still be a protagonist in a story, while the MA are antagonists.
There needed to be reason why we're not supposed to villainize Ramonda and the Wakandan goverment (and indirectly T'CHalla I guess) for sentencing Aneka to death for murdering a rapist and saving those women. We need them to not actually be right, otherwise they're not the antagonists anymore.
That's why I find it a little weird that people take issue with their actions not coming off more sympathetic or justifiable. To me I thought that was kind of the point.[/QUOTE]
They kind of just went with half measures when discussing the monarchy...
T'challa is bad! No One Man.... but FOR QUEEN SHURI!
But... we can't show you why t'challa is bad. Just vague "he is distracted" stuff because we can't paint the title character as a monster. So, just insinuate instead lol.
Oh and the army and such is spread thin but we can't show that either because... idk lol
Painting authority and governments and "the powers" as bad is a lot easier when that same authorities name isn't on the front of the book.
(I think I am just most bitter that the WoW story sucks quality wise)
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2605693]They kind of just went with half measures when discussing the monarchy...
T'challa is bad! No One Man.... but FOR QUEEN SHURI!
But... we can't show you why t'challa is bad. Just vague "he is distracted" stuff because we can't paint the title character as a monster. So, just insinuate instead lol.
Oh and the army and such is spread thin but we can't show that either because... idk lol
Painting authority and governments and "the powers" as bad is a lot easier when that same authorities name isn't on the front of the book.
(I think I am just most bitter that the WoW story sucks quality wise)[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the MA used a lot of propoganda against T'Challa because they were trying to incite a revolution. Short catchy sound bites that look good on a sign or a t-shirt... it works with the masses.
Because there was a degree of unhappiness with T'Challa anyways (from the various things Coates mentioned... AvX, Thanos invasion, abandoning his sister, etc), he was an easy target. And because the Doras themselves were young teenage girls taken from their homes to work as body guards/wives in training for political reasons, they're actually the perfect vehicle for the message. Even if the message wasn't true, it's believable sounding coming from them (for the Wakandans at least.... obviously readers know better).
Add that to the fact that these women have done what the Wakandan government failed to do by saving these women and you've got a revolution.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2605401][B]Pretty much, it's made worse by how the whole thing with the chieftain goes down.
[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ZhwcpGthYiJvBluISXXPpgJvnJGdz1NE8bTvwjx8zM3XwH2SQ9aqF1LNIVbEZlnVLhrFGJyIYasbJBAx7H64p26wXGv-TWs-E-j7E0ellBWtPsCRqTYAReCRgmYgUWTlxKap-w=s0[/IMG]
The captain of the Dora Milaje folks, unable to subdue an unarmed man and has horrible persuasion skills and uses lethal force first chance she gets. My I add that Priests 16 year old DMs were knocking thug's around left and right while getting shot at or stabbed at, fighting undead dudes and kicking ass while using non-lethal force? Hudlin's DM fought and beat up Black Widow and fought Doom bots.
Hell even Mayberrys DM fought mystic Vibranium powered Doom bots and held 30 thousand soldiers at bay for an hour despite being outnumbered 60 to 1. But the captain, the leader the supposed to be the best of the order, fails to bring in the chieftain because she ask him to surrender and he said no. The funny thing is her and Ayo take down the guy running up to the rally with a knife as he was heading for Shuri yet this guy gets speared for saying no? I mean yes the guy deserved it But there couldn't have been him grabbing one of the girls and trying to use her as a shield, forcing Anekas hand?
Poor writing and it pretty much Makes the rebellion and the fact that it works to some degree 100 times worse[/B][/QUOTE]
As a stand-alone scene, it's cringe-worthy writing... but given the ramifications this scene had 10 months ago...
I'm not even sure what to think about this; like "Surprise! The men weren't negligent rapists! We were just pulling your tail for the last 10 issues of the [I]other[/I] book by skating around the impracticability of it while [I]still[/I] having the Doras defect as if that impracticability was in fact a reality! And Shuri in charge over T'Challa would've made things better even tho it was Ramonda that ultimately made the call!"
Sweet baby bast...
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2605693]They kind of just went with half measures when discussing the monarchy...
T'challa is bad! No One Man.... but FOR QUEEN SHURI!
But... we can't show you why t'challa is bad. Just vague "he is distracted" stuff because we can't paint the title character as a monster. So, just insinuate instead lol.
Oh and the army and such is spread thin but we can't show that either because... idk lol
Painting authority and governments and "the powers" as bad is a lot easier when that same authorities name isn't on the front of the book.
(I think I am just most bitter that the WoW story sucks quality wise)[/QUOTE]
You may be on to something. This entire 10 month exercise would've been a lot smoother if T'Challa was a rapey villainous dictator. Shame.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2605615]Anekas hand couldn't have been forced... she had to have crossed the line. If Anekas actions were justiable Ramonda wouldn't have allowed her execution verdict to stand. And if Anekas execution gimmick didn't stand, the MA wouldn't have rebelled and we wouldn't have a rebellion, which obviously was necessary for the story.
The MA are the antagonist in the main title ... their actions aren't necessarily supposed to be entirely justifiable. Had they actually been right in what they did, it would have made Ramonda look bad for not siding with them. But instead we got the natural order of things.... the protagonists did the right thing, the antagonist did the wrong thing and went on to do questionable things which end up in conflict with the protagonists.[/QUOTE]
[B]You do know that even if he tried to use a girl as a shield or tried to fight back and Aneka killed him, it would still be bad in her Right? Because he is a chieftain and she is trained to handle bigger threat's, the guy should be a walk in the park. And really while they were kinda shown as antagonists at the same time, there was supposed to be done "truth" to their rebellion. Now we know there isn't any at All. It's all bullshit that they didn't earn YET the story is heading into a direction that rewards them for something they neither earned or deserved and really they are part of the problem they supposedly have with the government[/B]
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For better or for worse, I wouldn't say the MA plot line was all bad though. It definitely sparked interest and debate in the comic book about who was wrong and who was right early on. As for Aneka and Ayo, I don't think the intent was for them to come on the scene astute in their decisions. Ayo and Aneka are probably 18, 19 early 20's at most, so their impulsiveness and confusion is believable for their age. Shuri even refers to Aneka as "Little Girl" . However, I think as we move forward into season 2 you may slowly start to see the development of a more wiser Ayo and Aneka, similar to what we saw with Shuri.
I think theres a difference between writing character flaws for literary reasons, and just plain bad writing. Granted WOW has a little mix of both, but I think overall Ayo and Aneka's obviously flawed decisions has been more of a contribution to the overall story more so than a cringing plot point.