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[QUOTE=Marvell2100;2757247]BCB, the whole Wives-In-Training debate was handled over a decade ago by Priest himself and subsequent writers have clarified it even more. Again, this is another issue that Coates used to try to drag Wakanda and BP through the mud with. As far as I know, Ramonda wasn't nor has ever been a Dora but she was married to T'Chaka.[/QUOTE]
Was the issue of the tribes being so unstable that the teenage girls they took from their homes to act as wives in training/bodyguards dating would cause they system to fall apart handled? Because that's the part I was calling sucky government. (not that the king getting a bunch of teenage potential wives isn't an issue too, but it's a seperate issue from the point I was making with the sucky statement).
Because it IS sucky government. It's government not doing its job well. And I don't think anyone can dispute that. If government needs to go to such ridiculous lengths to maintain the peace, that makes everyone look bad. It makes the local tribes look bad petty for being willing to not work together over something so ridiculously minor as someone dating and it makes the national govenment look incompetent and ineffective for not being able to do it's job well enough to maintain stability within government without relying on a system as ridiculously stupid as using girls as brides in training.
In this day and age it's an utterly backwards system which frankly makes no sense whatsoever. The only reason it's okay is because it's a comic book, and having government in comics look utterly incomeptent at times is the norm.
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[QUOTE=dreyga2000;2757332]The point wasn't the age of the Dora Milaje rather that the whole wives in training thing was still canon.
The scans I posted showed that
A) T'Challa was unable to merely abolish that aspect of the Doras without risking war
B)That despite T'Challa having no interest in the Doras tradition prevented them pursuing romantic relations with anyone aside the king
C) The wives in-training aspect continued into Hudlins run
I'm not being contentious to be contentious I'm presenting facts to correct what is a common misconception[/QUOTE]
[B]It continued into Hudlin's run and then they were also repurposed in Hudlin's run.. quite early on actually. So again its only an issue because Coates Decided to make it an issue, After all these years of them being Royal Guards/elite force and the wives in training going a way, not only does Coates jump back to Priest run ignoring everything else, But then he Exaggerates it (Gay does it even more to the point of ridiculousness extremes) so that he can tell this story, and he ignores the continuity of it all If he wants to play around with this stuff then he needs to address all of it. The Doras simply break away and thats that, there was a reason T'challa kept the order but didn't abolish it (and Hudlin and the rest turned it into being royal guards to the king and the royal family was a great honor, but lets ignore that part because they were "Bred by men to be given to other men" and they need to "serve in all ways") but since that didn't fit the agenda, they simply break away with zero consequence. I call BS [/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2757611][B]It continued into Hudlin's run and then they were also repurposed in Hudlin's run.. quite early on actually. So again its only an issue because Coates Decided to make it an issue, After all these years of them being Royal Guards/elite force and the wives in training going a way, not only does Coates jump back to Priest run ignoring everything else, But then he Exaggerates it (Gay does it even more to the point of ridiculousness extremes) so that he can tell this story, and he ignores the continuity of it all If he wants to play around with this stuff then he needs to address all of it. The Doras simply break away and thats that, there was a reason T'challa kept the order but didn't abolish it (and Hudlin and the rest turned it into being royal guards to the king and the royal family was a great honor, but lets ignore that part because they were "Bred by men to be given to other men" and they need to "serve in all ways") but since that didn't fit the agenda, they simply break away with zero consequence. I call BS [/B][/QUOTE]
The reason the order wasn't abolished was because it needed to keep the peace between the tribes. HOWEVER if the government can actually do it's job competently and resolve disputes without the ridiculous brides in training systen (like every other government in the world seems to be capable of doing), then the Doras can break away and have the freedom of doing whatever the heck they want to do instead of being used as political tools.
And that I think the change Coates is making. Bringing about a more realistic functional government that hopefully doesn't rely on suck
h backwards traditions in order to maintain stability. Yes, the Doras breaking away potentially can and will have consequences... but those consequences can be mitigated if the government can actually do it's job rather than having a bunch of teenage girls taken from their homes doing it for them. We'll see.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;2757233]Why?
Because you say so?
A lot of nonsense has been posted in this thread about how the wives in training aspect of the Dora Milaje protocols was unsavoury due to the age that Priest ascribed to the two he had accompanying T'Challa originally.
I call BS on the attendant criticism due to the fact that Priest clearly had T'Challa eschewing the whole wives in training gig in favour of the Dora's being an elite strike force/personal bodyguards to the King thing.
Reginald Hudlin and Maberry further repurposed the Dora's to such a degree that the whole wives in training thing was only an issue for unfans or people generally looking for something to complain about in the absence of anything else.
The age of consent for sexual activity in the United Kingdom is 16, so I'm not sure why anyone would be making noise about this issue as relates to the BP mythos?
But I suppose pushing the fallacy of stereotyped African sexual dysfunction is easy for some.[/QUOTE]
Yup, that plot point was dropped in the same bucket as T'Challa's incurable aneurysm.
Coates just wanted to resurface the Dora thing and make it into a big hissy fit because of "reasons" but, ironically, he was the one being unsavory, selective and insincere by conveniently ignoring that T'Challa was portrayed as being against that concept, that there were far-reaching politics involved with other tribes that made it more than the "no one man" moniker implied, and that we saw on multiple occasions a genuine compassion the Doras and BP had for each other, including BP taking a death blast to the chest from Dr. Doom to protect a Dora, on some role reversal shit. So if anyone would fight for the Doras, politically or literally, it'd be BP himself.
If Coates was honest about revisiting and scrubbing that back story "clean" (while actually "elevating" the titular character), he'd simply have had T'Challa "officially" and formally denounce the concept, and then explore the politics and ramifications of that decision. Show BP's political savvy and transformational leadership in delivering one of those Obama type speeches and campaigns. Mind you, it'd all still feel unnecessary and an outdated concept from 20 years ago that was largely retconned over years, but at least the execution would have been better, consistent and fair.
As it stands, Coates was less interested in BP being that voice and leader, and more attuned with making his own personal avatar Changaloo be that.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2757611][B]It continued into Hudlin's run and then they were also repurposed in Hudlin's run.. quite early on actually. So again its only an issue because Coates Decided to make it an issue, After all these years of them being Royal Guards/elite force and the wives in training going a way, not only does Coates jump back to Priest run ignoring everything else, But then he Exaggerates it (Gay does it even more to the point of ridiculousness extremes) so that he can tell this story, and he ignores the continuity of it all If he wants to play around with this stuff then he needs to address all of it. The Doras simply break away and thats that, there was a reason T'challa kept the order but didn't abolish it (and Hudlin and the rest turned it into being royal guards to the king and the royal family was a great honor, but lets ignore that part because they were "Bred by men to be given to other men" and they need to "serve in all ways") but since that didn't fit the agenda, they simply break away with zero consequence. I call BS [/B][/QUOTE]
Its a very favorable reading that assumes that that practice stopped sometime during the Hudlin run. But it still happened.
Every adult Dora (and certainly Ayo and Aneka) were conscripted as minors. So if they have an axe to grind, for them it still would be valid.
In Reg's run, T'Challa's mom still brings up the option of him marrying one of his bodyguards (which he shoots down). Even if the new generation of Doras don't have those restrictions, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
You can say the same thing for the H.Z. even if they were only torturing dudes under T'Chaka's rule and without T'Chaka knowledge (which I don't buy-too easy to make everything Hunter's fault) any of the relatives of their past victims would still be pissed off and have a right to be so.
Not to mention T'Challa's reaction to finding out Hunter was torturing peeps was to kick him out of the country, not jail him(because they were still family).
Anybody in Ramonda's generation seeing HZ's running around freely now could rationally assume the worst about the current Government.
Would they be right? No?
But its a really bad look.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2757624]The reason the order wasn't abolished was because it needed to keep the peace between the tribes. HOWEVER if the government can actually do it's job competently and resolve disputes without the ridiculous brides in training systen (like every other government in the world seems to be capable of doing), then the Doras can break away and have the freedom of doing whatever the heck they want to do instead of being used as political tools.
And that I think the change Coates is making. Bringing about a more realistic functional government that hopefully doesn't rely on suck
h backwards traditions in order to maintain stability. Yes, the Doras breaking away potentially can and will have consequences... but those consequences can be mitigated if the government can actually do it's job rather than having a bunch of teenage girls taken from their homes doing it for them. We'll see.[/QUOTE]
Rites of adulthood in parts of Africa start around 12-13. Some of the Wakandan tribes probably haven't changed their traditions for 10,000 years. Which is why it only affected two tribes when Priest conceived the idea. Later expanding so all tribes would have an opportunity to marry into the royal family. They are not being held against their will. They can leave if they want.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2757611][B]It continued into Hudlin's run and then they were also repurposed in Hudlin's run.. quite early on actually. So again its only an issue because Coates Decided to make it an issue, After all these years of them being Royal Guards/elite force and the wives in training going a way, not only does Coates jump back to Priest run ignoring everything else, But then he Exaggerates it (Gay does it even more to the point of ridiculousness extremes) so that he can tell this story, and he ignores the continuity of it all If he wants to play around with this stuff then he needs to address all of it. The Doras simply break away and thats that, there was a reason T'challa kept the order but didn't abolish it (and Hudlin and the rest turned it into being royal guards to the king and the royal family was a great honor, but lets ignore that part because they were "Bred by men to be given to other men" and they need to "serve in all ways") but since that didn't fit the agenda, they simply break away with zero consequence. I call BS [/B][/QUOTE]
The rapey insinuations that Gay came with... the convenient (sloppy) misleads of possible negligence by T'Challa when it came to the alleged rapes and misogyny taking place that led to the Doras rebelling, plus not making it a point to properly and soundly clear up any of those misconceptions... yea, definitely BS.
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[QUOTE=Cville;2757665]Rites of adulthood in parts of Africa start around 12-13. Some of the Wakandan tribes probably haven't changed their traditions for 10,000 years. Which is why it only affected two tribes when Priest conceived the idea. Later expanding so all tribes would have an opportunity to marry into the royal family. They are not being held against their will. They can leave if they want.[/QUOTE]
I think the fact that suppossedly the most technologically and spirutually advanced nation in the world requiring 10,000 year old traditions to mainstain some semblance of stability without the entire system falling apart is probably why Coates had problems reconcilling Wakanda in comics. The most spiritually advanced nation on the planet shouldn't devolve into warefare after a Dora starts dating. The freaking Flinstones show more spiritual advancement than that. It's great for Wakanda to retain some of it's traditions... necessary in fact. Just not the ones that make them look like freaking cavemen, especially as it pertains to running government.
And maybe they can leave the job, but that just means another girl from that tribe is put in that position. The point being the concept itself needs to be abolished, but it can't UNLESS the system itself is fixed to the degree that they are no longer needed. There are consequences for the system not being in place, which is why it's lasted so long but eventually someone needed to address the actual problems which necessitated that it be in place to begin with. Which I think is the point of Coates current run. Ideally to get a more realistic functioning government that doesn't need a 10,000 year old tradition keeping things together.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2757697]I think the fact that suppossedly the most technologically and spirutually advanced nation in the world requiring 10,000 year old traditions to mainstain some semblance of stability without the entire system falling apart is probably why Coates had problems reconcilling Wakanda in comics. The most spiritually advanced nation on the planet shouldn't devolve into warefare after a Dora starts dating. The freaking Flinstones show more spiritual advancement than that. It's great for Wakanda to retain some of it's traditions... necessary in fact. Just not the ones that make them look like freaking cavemen, especially as it pertains to running government.
And maybe they can leave the job, but that just means another girl from that tribe is put in that position. The point being the concept itself needs to be abolished, but it can't UNLESS the system itself is fixed to the degree that they are no longer needed. There are consequences for the system not being in place, which is why it's lasted so long but eventually someone needed to address the actual problems which necessitated that it be in place to begin with. Which I think is the point of Coates current run. Ideally to get a more realistic functioning government that doesn't need a 10,000 year old tradition keeping things together.[/QUOTE]
They don't war for dating. The village is seen as dishonored and other tribes don't interact with them. The dishonored tribe may then start getting violent in response. And the entire system wouldn't fall apart that one tribe might get wiped out, but Wakanda is not going anywhere.
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[QUOTE=Cville;2757732]They don't war for dating. The village is seen as dishonored and other tribes don't interact with them. The dishonored tribe may then start getting violent in response. And the entire system wouldn't fall apart that one tribe might get wiped out, but Wakanda is not going anywhere.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but warefare is the end result of the dating after lack of trade and starvation and all the rest set it. I'm just getting to the finish line... or at least the finish line Ramonda mentioned.
And that sort of system ends up making everyone look bad. It makes the villages look ridiculously petty for behaving that way over something as ridiculously meaningless as a Dora dating, and it makes the Wakandan goverment look incompetent for even allowing that situation to exist in the first place. The end result of a Dora dating shouldn't be a tribe getting wiped off the map. If that's how your system works, you need to get a better system. Maybe one that's not 10,000 years old.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2757747]Yes, but warefare is the end result of the dating after lack of trade and starvation and all the rest set it. I'm just getting to the finish line... or at least the finish line Ramonda mentioned.
And that sort of system ends up making everyone look bad. It makes the villages look ridiculously petty for behaving that way over something as ridiculously meaningless as a Dora dating, and it makes the Wakandan goverment look incompetent for even allowing that situation to exist in the first place. The end result of a Dora dating shouldn't be a tribe getting wiped off the map. If that's how your system works, you need to get a better system. Maybe one that's not 10,000 years old.[/QUOTE]
But they survived mostly intact for that time period. Something must be working. Only the Jabari came close to disappearing and that only happened after the tried to take the country after T'Chaka died.
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[QUOTE=Cville;2757764]But they survived mostly intact for that time period. Something must be working. Only the Jabari came close to disappearing and that only happened after the tried to take the country after T'Chaka died.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, they survived by the Dora's not dating. Or at least not doing it publically.
The system worked OKAY... but it also is ulitmately ignoring the actual problem. The problem isn't the Doras dating or not dating... it's that the tribal are dysfunctional. Having a bunch of teenage girls maintain the peace is just a band aid to the bullet wound. It stops the bleeding, but that doesn't mean you're fine.
Wakanda frankly looks ridiculous that it's been relying on such a system all this time to maintain some semblance of stability. And more importantly it makes T'Challa look ridiculous because he's captain of that ship. It's why I think Coates felt eliminating it and replacing it with a (hopefully) functional government that can actually do the job without brides in training was probably a good idea.
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;2757279]Just read WOW #6
Gotta say, not a bad book. I actually quite like this one.
Probably the best WOW issue and the best issue written with the Black Panther title labeled on it as of recent[/QUOTE]
I agree, definitely set up for something bigger maybe even a new potential ongoing .
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[QUOTE=mbeezy561;2757836]I agree, definitely set up for something bigger maybe even a new potential ongoing .[/QUOTE]
An on-going would be cool. If you were to ask me a year ago I'd say there's no way that could happen, but marvel does seem to be willing to expand the BP franchise with multiple books so it's possible.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2757747]Yes, but warefare is the end result of the dating after lack of trade and starvation and all the rest set it. I'm just getting to the finish line... or at least the finish line Ramonda mentioned.
And that sort of system ends up making everyone look bad. It makes the villages look ridiculously petty for behaving that way over something as ridiculously meaningless as a Dora dating, and it makes the Wakandan goverment look incompetent for even allowing that situation to exist in the first place. The end result of a Dora dating shouldn't be a tribe getting wiped off the map. If that's how your system works, you need to get a better system. Maybe one that's not 10,000 years old.[/QUOTE]
[B]This was all explained already in priest run. there are dozens of tribes and most of them can't agree on anything, so the Dora system was put in place to bring peace and allow them to work together (remember that In priest run. Wakanda was just recently advanced due to T'challa becoming King, and moving them to the 21st century, So years of tradition aren't just going to change overnight) The tribes don't get along, and dishonored tribes suffer because others dont want to deal with them. also because these various tribes want their own needs met over anyone else's there was alot of bickering. This has nothing to do with the government being crappy because at the same time, the tribes outnumbered the city Wakandans 8 to 1 and Though they were more advanced, t'challa still didn't want to risk war and bloodshed while these tribes adjusted to the the new advancements. Tribes could choose whether they wanted to be advanced or hold traditions. The government didn't want to revert to violence to bring them in line. Peace was the key here.
Plus i find it funny your saying he looks ridiculous and bashing the Mythos when hudlin came in and cleaned it up rather well, and re-purposed the DM, Same with everyone else who followed. You essentially had a isolated nation jump to the 21st century very quickly and become the most advanced nation on earth, but not everyone was on board with being more public especially after being hidden. So the adjustment period is needed, especially when your dealing with such a large number of tribes (Again they were outnumbered 8 to 1, and if a fight did ensure, they would still win due to the tech advantage, but thats a huge number of lives lost) Peace is the primary objective. And again hudlin followed up on it and essentially had it turned from Wives in training to simply the royal guard [/B]