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[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3688409]An interesting take on issue #1, from a comment to a puff piece on IO9:
I'm not entirely sure what the commenter means by this, not being familiar with the essay, but it certain sounds pretentious and US-centric enough to be Coates' motive.[/QUOTE]
[B] Would not surprise me at all considering S1 and 2 has the same exact pretentious add-ons to the seasons to try and make this generic story into some kind of complex thought provoking piece when it's not.
I like dopespills channel but there are times with Black panther that he starts trying to make lemonade out of piss.
Priest had complex and thought provoking stories that came together nicely and where dense.
Hudlin had less complex stories, but they were fun and took us on adventures and even through in some complex stuff here and there. But mainly, it it was a joy ride.
Coates had done none of that[/B]
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3688541]hello thank you. people will find ANYTHING to complain about when its associated with Coates even when he is getting an overwhelmingly positive response.[/QUOTE]
[B]No, it's just some of us see through the bullshit for what his stories are. Season 1 got all this praise and it turned Wakanda Into stereotypical Africa with Tchalla doing stupid thing's like meeting with known despots and asking advice on how to quell a rebellion (something he has done many times) just to see what they would say, and is surprised when it backfires. Some of us aint going to applaud his "overwhelmingly positive responses" when all he is doing is playing more on turning Wakanda into pilgrim/European slave trader analogues with Black dysfunction in the Wakanda mainland
Coates is getting carried by marvel doing their best to keep his book relevant and out of the cancel zone. He doesn't write good BP stories.
Had Priest, Hudlin, or Liss got this much help from marvel? We would of had 100 issues from them and Hudlin's true doomwar with a satisfactory ending and WWW (World war Wakanda)[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3688580][B]No, it's just some of us see through the bullshit for what his stories are. Season 1 got all this praise and it turned Wakanda Into stereotypical Africa with Tchalla doing stupid thing's like meeting with known despots and asking advice on how to quell a rebellion (something he has done many times) just to see what they would say, and is surprised when it backfires. Some of us aint going to applaud his "overwhelmingly positive responses" when all he is doing is playing more on turning Wakanda into pilgrim/European slave trader analogues with Black dysfunction in the Wakanda mainland
Coates is getting carried by marvel doing their best to keep his book relevant and out of the cancel zone. He doesn't write good BP stories.
Had Priest, Hudlin, or Liss got this much help from marvel? We would of had 100 issues from them and Hudlin's true doomwar with a satisfactory ending and WWW (World war Wakanda)[/B][/QUOTE]
Only actual Black Panther enthusiasts and open minded newcomers to the BP mythos, get this.
Coates regurgitated and wholly unoriginal nonsense primary appeal to some, lies solely in the fact that T'Challa in particular and Wakanda as a whole, have been reduced to bit players and catalysts to the forward progression and measurable development of guest stars such as Storm.
It's funny how writers such as Reginald Hudlin and Dwayne McDuffy, were able to write Ororo as a true powerhouse without diminishing T'Challa's status in his own book and yet some readers back then, complained that Storm wasn't "elevated" enough.
Some of those readers are now praising Coates current take on the BP mythos primarily because of his unbalanced and wholly contrived elevation of Storm within a book that's ostensibly supposed to be the titular characters solo book.
The fact that Coates is (and continues) doing this at T'Challa and Wakandas expense, is totally lost on such readers.
None of this suprises me in the slightest.
As Brother Ezyo, MoS, BoG and a few others have pointed out, if other writers such as Priest; Hudlin and Liss had recieved the kind of disproportionate support Marvel have given Coates thus far, their respective runs would've been more so succesful than the current tripe Coates is churning out and he wouldn't have gotten anywhere close enough to have such a destructive impact on the BP mythos.
Excelsior.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3688541]hello thank you. people will find ANYTHING to complain about when its associated with Coates even when he is getting an overwhelmingly positive response.[/QUOTE]
I think you could counter that people will find ANYTHING to praise about when it is associated with Coates, even when he writes an overwhelmingly average issue.
Most of the people who are pointing out valid criticisms of #1 stated it was decent/solid/good when the issue came out. Mostly because of the art but still... you can criticize anything. A lot of people around here are of the opinion Priest run is the best run and there are still criticisms of that.
This was barely a set up issue considering it is starting in the middle of a story. Issue was saved by Acuna who took a heavy handed slave allegory issue and made it entertaining to look at. I hope Acuna can keep pace month to month.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3688721]I think you could counter that people will find ANYTHING to praise about when it is associated with Coates, even when he writes an overwhelmingly average issue.
Most of the people who are pointing out valid criticisms of #1 stated it was decent/solid/good when the issue came out. Mostly because of the art but still... you can criticize anything. A lot of people around here are of the opinion Priest run is the best run and there are still criticisms of that.
This was barely a set up issue considering it is starting in the middle of a story. Issue was saved by Acuna who took a heavy handed slave allegory issue and made it entertaining to look at. I hope Acuna can keep pace month to month.[/QUOTE]
One could even reasonably argue that Coates thinly veiled usage of tired tropes and flimsy allegorical ideas on discrimination are much more suited to the style of writing that's quite popular amongst some X-writers.
I just wish Marvel would give him a core X-book to go peddle his wares in thus leaving the field clear for a writer who actually respects the richness and urgency of the BP mythos to craft proper BP centric stories as opposed to the low-fi twaddle Coates has generated thus far.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3688732]One could even reasonably argue that Coates thinly veiled usage of tired tropes and flimsy allegorical ideas on discrimination are much more suited to the style of writing that's quite popular amongst some X-writers.
I just wish Marvel would give him a core X-book to go peddle his wares in thus leaving the field clear for a writer who actually respects the richness and urgency of the BP mythos to craft proper BP centric stories as opposed to the low-fi twaddle Coates has generated thus far.[/QUOTE]
This. So much of THIS!!!
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3688714]Only actual Black Panther enthusiasts and open minded newcomers to the BP mythos, get this.
Coates regurgitated and wholly unoriginal nonsense primary appeal to some, lies solely in the fact that T'Challa in particular and Wakanda as a whole, have been reduced to bit players and catalysts to the forward progression and measurable development of guest stars such as Storm.
It's funny how writers such as Reginald Hudlin and Dwayne McDuffy, were able to write Ororo as a true powerhouse without diminishing T'Challa's status in his own book and yet some readers back then, complained that Storm wasn't "elevated" enough.
Some of those readers are now praising Coates current take on the BP mythos primarily because of his unbalanced and wholly contrived elevation of Storm within a book that's ostensibly supposed to be the titular characters solo book.
The fact that Coates is (and continues) doing this at T'Challa and Wakandas expense, is totally lost on such readers.
None of this suprises me in the slightest.
As Brother Ezyo, MoS, BoG and a few others have pointed out, if other writers such as Priest; Hudlin and Liss had recieved the kind of disproportionate support Marvel have given Coates thus far, their respective runs would've been more so succesful than the current tripe Coates is churning out and he wouldn't have gotten anywhere close enough to have such a destructive impact on the BP mythos.
Excelsior.[/QUOTE]
[B] Exactly. Hudlin and McDuffie had great Storm feats, yet people will say Hudlin sidelined Storm and usually they point to SWaD (Which was written by JA) and then blame Hudlin. But he actually did have Storm do stuff. McDuffie took it further and had her hit SS with a storm in space and channel some massive energy. But this isn't good enough for some.
So when Coates Storm comes into the BP mythos and Coates basically Storm fanfics the mythos, of course people act like he is the next coming of Priest or something... Coates has yet to do any benefit to T'Challa or Wakanda itself. But people try to dissect his simplistic story telling and spin something out of the mediocrity, because they don't want to admit that though they may like his other work, his comics leave MUCH more to be desired [/B]
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3688721]I think you could counter that people will find ANYTHING to praise about when it is associated with Coates, even when he writes an overwhelmingly average issue.
Most of the people who are pointing out valid criticisms of #1 stated it was decent/solid/good when the issue came out. Mostly because of the art but still... you can criticize anything. A lot of people around here are of the opinion Priest run is the best run and there are still criticisms of that.
This was barely a set up issue considering it is starting in the middle of a story. Issue was saved by Acuna who took a heavy handed slave allegory issue and made it entertaining to look at. I hope Acuna can keep pace month to month.[/QUOTE]
The thing is, the first issue of a new arc pretty much always is a set up issue. I think it deserves some credit for having as much action and pacing as it does considering first issues are usually bogged down with set up.
But I suppose that's the advantage of starting in the middle of the story. You're hitting the ground running.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3688828][B] Exactly. Hudlin and McDuffie had great Storm feats, yet people will say Hudlin sidelined Storm and usually they point to SWaD (Which was written by JA) and then blame Hudlin. But he actually did have Storm do stuff. McDuffie took it further and had her hit SS with a storm in space and channel some massive energy. But this isn't good enough for some.
So when Coates Storm comes into the BP mythos and Coates basically Storm fanfics the mythos, of course people act like he is the next coming of Priest or something... Coates has yet to do any benefit to T'Challa or Wakanda itself. But people try to dissect his simplistic story telling and spin something out of the mediocrity, because they don't want to admit that though they may like his other work, his comics leave MUCH more to be desired [/B][/QUOTE]
Truer words were never spoken.
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[QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;3688732]One could even reasonably argue that Coates thinly veiled usage of tired tropes and flimsy allegorical ideas on discrimination are much more suited to the style of writing that's quite popular amongst some X-writers.
I just wish Marvel would give him a core X-book to go peddle his wares in thus leaving the field clear for a writer who actually respects the richness and urgency of the BP mythos to craft proper BP centric stories as opposed to the low-fi twaddle Coates has generated thus far.[/QUOTE]
Excellent post!
Prime reason why I do not post as much in this thread. I would literally just be rehashing what Mr. M is or has been saying. Coates for sure is writing the wrong book for the story he wants to project. Heck he would probably do well on a Luke Cage title if not a X-Book but Black Panther for sure is not for him.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3688479]I honestly liked it. Him barely speaking, and largely just beating people up was kinda cool. I wouldn't want him always written that way. But it was kinda fun in this context.[/QUOTE]
It also added some weight to when he finally spoke. I liked it here
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3688580][B]No, it's just some of us see through the bullshit for what his stories are. Season 1 got all this praise and it turned Wakanda Into stereotypical Africa with Tchalla doing stupid thing's like meeting with known despots and asking advice on how to quell a rebellion (something he has done many times) just to see what they would say, and is surprised when it backfires. Some of us aint going to applaud his "overwhelmingly positive responses" when all he is doing is playing more on turning Wakanda into pilgrim/European slave trader analogues with Black dysfunction in the Wakanda mainland
Coates is getting carried by marvel doing their best to keep his book relevant and out of the cancel zone. He doesn't write good BP stories.
Had Priest, Hudlin, or Liss got this much help from marvel? We would of had 100 issues from them and Hudlin's true doomwar with a satisfactory ending and WWW (World war Wakanda)[/B][/QUOTE]
I cant speak to priest or hudlin or liss. You are most certainly entitled to your opinion but I hardly see why any fan would find something to criticize, especially as most have said it's a setup issue. he was kicking ass, not needing the help of his supporting characters and the art was beautiful. it comes across that the criticism is being blindly made based upon not liking his previous stuff as opposed to letting this issue stand on it's own. and based upon your response it would seem I'm correct.
[QUOTE=MindofShadow;3688721]I think you could counter that people will find ANYTHING to praise about when it is associated with Coates, even when he writes an overwhelmingly average issue.
Most of the people who are pointing out valid criticisms of #1 stated it was decent/solid/good when the issue came out. Mostly because of the art but still... you can criticize anything. A lot of people around here are of the opinion Priest run is the best run and there are still criticisms of that.
This was barely a set up issue considering it is starting in the middle of a story. Issue was saved by Acuna who took a heavy handed slave allegory issue and made it entertaining to look at. I hope Acuna can keep pace month to month.[/QUOTE]
again you are entitled to your opinion but the overwhelming positive reviews and the fact the issue is going through separate prints would suggest otherwise.
[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3688828][B] Exactly. Hudlin and McDuffie had great Storm feats, yet people will say Hudlin sidelined Storm and usually they point to SWaD (Which was written by JA) and then blame Hudlin. But he actually did have Storm do stuff. McDuffie took it further and had her hit SS with a storm in space and channel some massive energy. But this isn't good enough for some.
So when Coates Storm comes into the BP mythos and Coates basically Storm fanfics the mythos, of course people act like he is the next coming of Priest or something... Coates has yet to do any benefit to T'Challa or Wakanda itself. But people try to dissect his simplistic story telling and spin something out of the mediocrity, because they don't want to admit that though they may like his other work, his comics leave MUCH more to be desired [/B][/QUOTE]
first off I'm one of the few storm fans who still defend hudlin. I think what he did with diving into her family, confirming she was a potential omega level mutant, having her defeat death, and showing them in a loving fashion was great but let's not fool ourselves. hudlin did not accurately capture her voice. I've been reading old issues of Claremont stories for the first time and to be frank Claremont and hudlin's storm read like completely two different people. so proppe criticism of hudlin goes deeper than feats or what not. the same case you make against coates now is what storm fans were saying when hudlin wrote her.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3689148]I cant speak to priest or hudlin or liss. You are most certainly entitled to your opinion but I hardly see why any fan would find something to criticize, especially as most have said it's a setup issue. he was kicking ass, not needing the help of his supporting characters and the art was beautiful. it comes across that the criticism is being blindly made based upon not liking his previous stuff as opposed to letting this issue stand on it's own. and based upon your response it would seem I'm correct.
again you are entitled to your opinion but the overwhelming positive reviews and the fact the issue is going through separate prints would suggest otherwise.
first off I'm one of the few storm fans who still defend hudlin. I think what he did with diving into her family, confirming she was a potential omega level mutant, having her defeat death, and showing them in a loving fashion was great but let's not fool ourselves. hudlin did not accurately capture her voice. I've been reading old issues of Claremont stories for the first time and to be frank Claremont and hudlin's storm read like completely two different people. so proppe criticism of hudlin goes deeper than feats or what not. the same case you make against coates now is what storm fans were saying when hudlin wrote her.[/QUOTE]
[B]I and many others have gone into detail about the issue with his #1 and it's not "blindly made based upon not liking his previous stuff". In fact, if you actually read the criticisms most people started by saying it was a average, decent, or good issue, then went into details about the problem with the issue, just because it sold well (this is also I'm part due to having a ton of variants) doesn't mean it was a good representation of T'Challa or Wakanda as a whole. In fact he has yet to actually uplift either in The 3 years he has been on the franchise. So to try and dismiss legit criticism as simply hating it because it's Coates, is disingenuous at best.
[/B]
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h[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3689191][B]I and many others have gone into detail about the issue with his #1 and it's not "blindly made based upon not liking his previous stuff". In fact, if you actually read the criticisms most people started by saying it was a average, decent, or good issue, then went into details about the problem with the issue, just because it sold well (this is also I'm part due to having a ton of variants) doesn't mean it was a good representation of T'Challa or Wakanda as a whole. In fact he has yet to actually uplift either in The 3 years he has been on the franchise. So to try and dismiss legit criticism as simply hating it because it's Coates, is disingenuous at best.
[/B][/QUOTE]
As I've stated previously, actual BP Mythos enthusiasts understand what's going in with Coates hijacking of the BP Mythos and missapropriation of same to tell misplaced tales of dysfunctional drivel masquerading as "revolutionary" literature.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3689191][B]I and many others have gone into detail about the issue with his #1 and it's not "blindly made based upon not liking his previous stuff". In fact, if you actually read the criticisms most people started by saying it was a average, decent, or good issue, then went into details about the problem with the issue, just because it sold well (this is also I'm part due to having a ton of variants) doesn't mean it was a good representation of T'Challa or Wakanda as a whole. In fact he has yet to actually uplift either in The 3 years he has been on the franchise. So to try and dismiss legit criticism as simply hating it because it's Coates, is disingenuous at best.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I never said it was hating my friend. I said based upon the criticism of this issue alone I'm not sure what BP fans would criticize. you even responded initially by pointing out season 1 got w lot of praise and then went to making wakanda look bad implying the same thing would happen here. we dont know the context of these intergalaruc wakandans taking slaves or any of that. and tchalla lost his memory and fought his way through multiple foreign adversaries and terrain without any memory. all he had was his innate abilities. the biggest criticism I read of season one of some here was that his supporting cast was doing everything, yet in this issue that didnt happen and the credit doesnt go to his mind and creativity but to the art? even when it's way to early to even know what's even going on storyline wise. so again based upon your initial response it seems criticism of this book is being made what he did in season 1 and not necessarily looking at this issue in a self contained fashion. it's more a reflection of your distaste of what he has previously done.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3689287]I never said it was hating my friend. I said based upon the criticism of this issue alone I'm not sure what BP fans would criticize. you even responded initially by pointing out season 1 got w lot of praise and then went to making wakanda look bad implying the same thing would happen here. we dont know the context of these intergalaruc wakandans taking slaves or any of that. and tchalla lost his memory and fought his way through multiple foreign adversaries and terrain without any memory. all he had was his innate abilities. the biggest criticism I read of season one of some here was that his supporting cast was doing everything, yet in this issue that didnt happen and the credit doesnt go to his mind and creativity but to the art? even when it's way to early to even know what's even going on storyline wise. so again based upon your initial response it seems criticism of this book is being made what he did in season 1 and not necessarily looking at this issue in a self contained fashion. it's more a reflection of your distaste of what he has previously done.[/QUOTE]
Criticisms with season 1 went far beyond BP getting overshadowed by the supporting cast. Rape camps being rampant in Wakanda with T'Challa knowing about them and did nothing, his character traits being given to other characters. The Dora Milaje suddenly feeling oppressed, the lack of good action, T'Challa bringing despots into Wakanda to seek their council even though he was fully aware of the terrible things that they've done to maintain their power. Coates harping on how T'Challa is a scientist at heart but haven't given him but has him many scientific feats and using other people's tech like Doom’s for something that he could've easily invented or have used kimoyo to do. Wakanda, a nation that defeated the Skrulls and repelled the Black Order multiple times is nearly brought to destruction by mooks with guns that had no military leadership.
The MA and Dora who were mentioned for being responsible for the death of legions of Wakandan soldiers don't get punished but are rewarded with their own land even though back in Priest's run T'Challa said he wouldn't do anything like because it'd inspire other tribes to do the same. The MA and Dora aligning with Tetu and Zenzi then breaking it off with them after Shuri threatens them and then don't bother with defending the country they claim to love in the final battle and still get rewarded in the end.
Shuri telling abuse/rape victim that what happened to that they should've been left to die because it wouldn't have mattered as long as Wakanda still stood, and I believe Shuri said something like that not once but twice.
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[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689349]Criticisms with season 1 went far beyond BP getting overshadowed by the supporting cast. Rape camps being rampant in Wakanda with T'Challa knowing about them and did nothing, his character traits being given to other characters. The Dora Milaje suddenly feeling oppressed, the lack of good action, T'Challa bringing despots into Wakanda to seek their council even though he was fully aware of the terrible things that they've done to maintain their power. Coates harping on how T'Challa is a scientist at heart but haven't given him but has him many scientific feats and using other people's tech like Doom’s for something that he could've easily invented or have used kimoyo to do. Wakanda, a nation that defeated the Skrulls and repelled the Black Order multiple times is nearly brought to destruction by mooks with guns that had no military leadership.
The MA and Dora who were mentioned for being responsible for the death of legions of Wakandan soldiers don't get punished but are rewarded with their own land even though back in Priest's run T'Challa said he wouldn't do anything like because it'd inspire other tribes to do the same. The MA and Dora aligning with Tetu and Zenzi then breaking it off with them after Shuri threatens them and then don't bother with defending the country they claim to love in the final battle and still get rewarded in the end.
Shuri telling abuse/rape victim that what happened to that they should've been left to die because it wouldn't have mattered as long as Wakanda still stood, and I believe Shuri said something like that not once but twice.[/QUOTE]
What T'Challa did with the MA really isn't all that different from what he's done with M'Baku. M'Baku is a flat out super villain, yet T'Challa allowed him to essentially hang out in the Jabare land unpunished. At least with the MA, they're willing to work with T'CHalla and help Wakanda. Can't say the same for Man Ape, whose been a super villain for decades (though under Priest at least he showed a bit more gray).
If M'Baku was allowed to hang out in the Jabare land unpunished, why is him doing the same with the MA a big deal? Clearly it worked out in everyone's favor as T'CHalla has the Doras helping again, and the Doras have their freedom. Seems like a win win for everyone, unlike M'Baku where he's basically left alone despite being a super villain for reasons.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3689381]What T'Challa did with the MA really isn't all that different from what he's done with M'Baku. M'Baku is a flat out super villain, yet T'Challa allowed him to essentially hang out in the Jabare land unpunished. At least with the MA, they're willing to work with T'CHalla and help Wakanda. Can't say the same for Man Ape, whose been a super villain for decades (though under Priest at least he showed a bit more gray).
If M'Baku was allowed to hang out in the Jabare land unpunished, why is him doing the same with the MA a big deal? Clearly it worked out in everyone's favor as T'CHalla has the Doras helping again, and the Doras have their freedom. Seems like a win win for everyone, unlike M'Baku where he's basically left alone despite being a super villain for reasons.[/QUOTE]
It is different. M'Baku was initially imprisoned for his past crimes until Nakia freed him. He was then imprisoned again until QDJ freed him and he killed Future Panther which resulted in T'Challa bringing the full force of the rest of Wakanda to Jabari Land for M'Baku and QDJ for killing a king. M'Baku’s fate was never revealed after T'Challa nearly killed QDJ IIRC, but he was likely reimprisoned.
Despite everything that the MA and rogue Dora have done, they have received no punishment for their crimes but rewarded with land that didn't belong to them.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3689287]I never said it was hating my friend. I said based upon the criticism of this issue alone I'm not sure what BP fans would criticize. you even responded initially by pointing out season 1 got w lot of praise and then went to making wakanda look bad implying the same thing would happen here. we dont know the context of these intergalaruc wakandans taking slaves or any of that. and tchalla lost his memory and fought his way through multiple foreign adversaries and terrain without any memory. all he had was his innate abilities. the biggest criticism I read of season one of some here was that his supporting cast was doing everything, yet in this issue that didnt happen and the credit doesnt go to his mind and creativity but to the art? even when it's way to early to even know what's even going on storyline wise. so again based upon your initial response it seems criticism of this book is being made what he did in season 1 and not necessarily looking at this issue in a self contained fashion. it's more a reflection of your distaste of what he has previously done.[/QUOTE]
[B] Because it's a generic story with a huge reliance on literally turning this Wakandan empire into the European slave trade. Beware said it best:[/B]
[QUOTE=Beware Of Geek;3685815]Let's talk "world building", shall we?
As mentioned before, the supposedly 2,000 year old Wakandan Empire uses a surprising amount of names from the late 20th century, but not every name comes from the comics. So, Coates must have come up with the other names himself, right?
Wrong. Almost every other name comes from European history, as related to the slave trade.
The planet Goree: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gor%C3%A9e[/url] . Of special note:
[QUOTE]Gorée is known as the location of the House of Slaves (French: Maison des esclaves), built by an Afro-French Métis family about 1780–1784.[/quote]
The Askari troops: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Askari[/url].
[QUOTE]An askari was a local soldier serving in the armies of the European colonial powers in Africa[/QUOTE]
The Maroon rebels: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_(people)[/url]
[QUOTE]Maroons were Africans who had escaped from slavery in the Americas and mixed with the indigenous peoples of the Americas, and formed independent settlements.[/QUOTE]
The starship Mackandal: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Mackandal[/url]
[QUOTE]François Mackandal (died 1758) was a Haitian Maroon leader in Saint-Domingue.[/QUOTE]
The only one I'm not sure of yet is Daoud, the "King-Mule". But it would not shock me if he's a reference to historical slavery as well,
One wonders why Wakandans use so many terms from French/Caribbean history, and not ONE word from an African language....
In short, I was wrong. This isn't a generic sci-fi slave story…
It's a freakin' ALLEGORY. :P
[/QUOTE]
[B]So it's not like these are baseless criticisms[/B]
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[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689400]It is different. M'Baku was initially imprisoned for his past crimes until Nakia freed him. He was then imprisoned again until QDJ freed him and he killed Future Panther which resulted in T'Challa bringing the full force of the rest of Wakanda to Jabari Land for M'Baku and QDJ for killing a king. M'Baku’s fate was never revealed after T'Challa nearly killed QDJ IIRC, but he was likely reimprisoned.
Despite everything that the MA and rogue Dora have done, they have received no punishment for their crimes but rewarded with land that didn't belong to them.[/QUOTE]
He was free in Hudlins run, so if he was imprisoned he got out. And considering he hangs out in the Jabare land, he wasn't trying all that hard to hide.
And yes, they were given land which previously was held by people who at best were problematic for BP. So again, it was frankly a win win all around. The DM get their freedom, and T'CHalla has turned the Jabare land into allies who actually HELP protect Wakanda. I don't deny there wasn't a degree of risk to his decision... but clearly that decision payed off.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3689432]He was free in Hudlins run, so if he was imprisoned he got out. And considering he hangs out in the Jabare land, he wasn't trying all that hard to hide.
And yes, they were given land which previously was held by people who at best were problematic for BP. So again, it was frankly a win win all around. The DM get their freedom, and T'CHalla has turned the Jabare land into allies who actually HELP protect Wakanda. I don't deny there wasn't a degree of risk to his decision... but clearly that decision payed off.[/QUOTE]
Hudlin's run pratically ignored most of what happened in Priest's run and during Hudlin's tenure M'Baku hadn't done anything wrong in fact I think his only appearance during Hudlin's run was the wedding and when he's killed.
Most importantly you are ignoring the simple fact that there were consequences for M'Baku's actions. T'Challa didn't pardon him and let go back home during Priest's run. He was arrested twice and possibly a third time.
The MA and Dora killed legions of Wakandan soldiers after openly rebelling, sided with known enemies of Wakanda, and didn't bother with defending the country in the final battle. What consequences did they receive? None. Whereas characters like M'Baku, Hunter, Nakia, and the Desturi all faced some form of consequences for their actions. That's why it's one of the many criticisms of season 1.
What did the Dora needed freedom from? It's established and known that T'Challa won't ask anything of them other than their basic duties, they can leave whenever they want, and joining is a choice, so they weren't forced into anything and they pratically held the most power in Wakanda after the Royal family. Most of the problems could've been avoided if the Dora never went rogue, killed legions of Wakandans, and never sided with Tetu and Zenzi, in fact they would've been dealt with a lot sooner.
Post the MA and Dora taking over, the Jabari weren't turned into allies. They were absent during the final battle against Tetu and Zenzi and I don't remember seeing any during the battle against Klaw and Azania either so they're basically doing the same thing that they were before which was nothing.
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[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689464]Hudlin's run pratically ignored most of what happened in Priest's run and during Hudlin's tenure M'Baku hadn't done anything wrong in fact I think his only appearance during Hudlin's run was when he's killed.
Most importantly you are ignoring the simple fact that there were consequences for M'Baku's actions. T'Challa didn't pardon him and let go back home during Priest's run. He was arrested twice and possibly a third time.
The MA and Dora killed legions of Wakandan soldiers after openly rebelling, sided with known enemies of Wakanda, and didn't bother with defending the country in the final battle. What consequences did they receive? None. Whereas characters like M'Baku, Hunter, Nakia, and the Desturi all faced some form of consequences for their actions. That's why it's one of the many criticisms of season 1.
What did the Dora needed freedom from? It's established and known that T'Challa won't ask anything of them other than their basic duties, they can leave whenever they want, and joining is a choice, so they weren't forced into anything and they pratically held the most power in Wakanda after the Royal family. Most of the problems could've been avoided if the Dora never went rogue, killed legions of Wakandans, and never sided with Tetu and Zenzi, in fact they would've been dealt with a lot sooner.
Post the MA and Dora taking over, the Jabari weren't turned into allies. They were absent during the final battle against Tetu and Zenzi and I don't remember seeing any during the battle against Klaw and Azania either so they're basically doing the same thing that they were before which was nothing.[/QUOTE]
He also appeared during T'Challa's wedding. He got an invite.
And as far Dora's needing freedom... the system didn't allow them to date, and initially didn't even allow them to speak to anyone else other than T'Challa. They were young teenage girls taken from their homes to be used as political pawns, to try and maintain peace. It was frankly a ridiculous system that needed to be completely eliminated on panel. Which is exactly what this run did.
As far as them fighting Klaw, they helped out.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]66333[/ATTACH]
So like I said, it all worked out for the best. Everyone got what they wanted.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3689475]He also appeared during T'Challa's wedding. He got an invite.
And as far Dora's needing freedom... the system didn't allow them to date, and initially didn't even allow them to speak to anyone else other than T'Challa. They were young teenage girls taken from their homes to be used as political pawns, to try and maintain peace. It was frankly a ridiculous system that needed to be completely eliminated on panel. Which is exactly what this run did.
As far as them fighting Klaw, they helped out.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]66333[/ATTACH]
So like I said, it all worked out for the best. Everyone got what they wanted.[/QUOTE]
Post Priest only being allowed to speak with the king and possibly not allowed to date have changed. WoW and a previous issued mentioned joining being a choice not to mentioned they were allowed to leave anytime they wanted and they have since been depicted being allowed to speak with other people.
There's no Jabari in the picture only the Dora, they're still not helping like I said, making the MA the rulers pointless so the Jabari weren't turned into allies.
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[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689498]Post Priest only being allowed to speak with the king and possibly not allowed to date have changed. WoW and a previous issued mentioned joining being a choice not to mentioned they were allowed to leave anytime they wanted and they have since been depicted being allowed to speak with other people.
There's no Jabari in the picture only the Dora, they're still not helping like I said, making the MA the rulers pointless so the Jabari weren't turned into allies.[/QUOTE]
The Doras rule the Jabari land. If the people ruling the Jabari are allies instead of enemies, then the Jabari at worst aren't a problem anymore and at best are now an asset.
And essentialy that's what you have to weight it against. If T'Challa decided to bring the DM to justice (which would have been completey fair to do), then he essentially starts another civil war. It's a civil war he can win, but at the price of more Wakandan life on top of what was already lost. If he allows them to keep the Jabari lands, then they have the potential to become an asset. Which is more benefial than simply killing them or arresting them.
Is it fair? Not entirely But I would argue the benefits of how T'CHalla handled things far out weight the benefits of going on another war, which gains them nothing but more bloodshed.
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[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689349]Criticisms with season 1 went far beyond BP getting overshadowed by the supporting cast. Rape camps being rampant in Wakanda with T'Challa knowing about them and did nothing, his character traits being given to other characters. The Dora Milaje suddenly feeling oppressed, the lack of good action, T'Challa bringing despots into Wakanda to seek their council even though he was fully aware of the terrible things that they've done to maintain their power. Coates harping on how T'Challa is a scientist at heart but haven't given him but has him many scientific feats and using other people's tech like Doom’s for something that he could've easily invented or have used kimoyo to do. Wakanda, a nation that defeated the Skrulls and repelled the Black Order multiple times is nearly brought to destruction by mooks with guns that had no military leadership.
The MA and Dora who were mentioned for being responsible for the death of legions of Wakandan soldiers don't get punished but are rewarded with their own land even though back in Priest's run T'Challa said he wouldn't do anything like because it'd inspire other tribes to do the same. The MA and Dora aligning with Tetu and Zenzi then breaking it off with them after Shuri threatens them and then don't bother with defending the country they claim to love in the final battle and still get rewarded in the end.
Shuri telling abuse/rape victim that what happened to that they should've been left to die because it wouldn't have mattered as long as Wakanda still stood, and I believe Shuri said something like that not once but twice.[/QUOTE]
You're making way too much sense my dude.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3689514]The Doras rule the Jabari land. If the people ruling the Jabari are allies instead of enemies, then the Jabari at worst aren't a problem anymore and at best are now an asset.
And essentialy that's what you have to weight it against. If T'Challa decided to bring the DM to justice (which would have been completey fair to do), then he essentially starts another civil war. It's a civil war he can win, but at the price of more Wakandan life on top of what was already lost. If he allows them to keep the Jabari lands, then they have the potential to become an asset. Which is more benefial than simply killing them or arresting them.
Is it fair? Not entirely But I would argue the benefits of how T'CHalla handled things far out weight the benefits of going on another war, which gains them nothing but more bloodshed.[/QUOTE]
The Jabari people aren't allies. What has T'Challa gained since their new leadership? Did the Jabari fight against Tetu and Zenzi? No. Did they help fight the Originators? No. Did they help close the portals? No. Did they help fight against Klaw and Azania? No. Did they help fight against the Adversary? No. Coates has had multiple moments to use them as BP's allies and hasn't. With the current story set in the future and space, the Jabari are even less help than they already were.
If the Dora never rebelled in the first place a lot of problems would've been handled with less Wakandan blood being shed instead they chose to spill a lot more. The next time a faction within Wakanda rebels should T'Challa pardon them and give them land after they had taken many lives on the possibility that they could be allies? Maybe T'Challa's other enemies should've just copy what they did.
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[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689573]The Jabari people aren't allies. What has T'Challa gained since their new leadership? Did the Jabari fight against Tetu and Zenzi? No. Did they help fight the Originators? No. Did they help close the portals? No. Did they help fight against Klaw and Azania? No. Did they help fight against the Adversary? No. Coates has had multiple moments to use them as BP's allies and hasn't. With the current story set in the future and space, the Jabari are even less help than they already were.
If the Dora never rebelled in the first place a lot of problems would've been handled with less Wakandan blood being shed instead they chose to spill a lot more. The next time a faction within Wakanda rebels should T'Challa pardon them and give them land after they had taken many lives on the possibility that they could be allies? Maybe T'Challa's other enemies should've just copy what they did.[/QUOTE]
Sure you can argue a lot less problems would have happened if the Doras didn't rebel. Rebellions are troublesome. No one is disputing that. But the question is whether or not T'Challa should have allowed them to rule the Jabari land, or go to war with them and punish them for their crimes. The later is perfectly fair given the situation... but it means likely killing more Wakandans. The former arguably is letting them off the book... but it does mean he gained them as allies again protecting Wakanda. You can certainly argue what T'CHalla did wasnt' fair... but there was more to gain in handling things the way he did than simply by punishing them.
And if T'Challa's enemies copy what the DM did, and become protectors of Wakanda willing to work for him then T'CHalla would probably be okay with that. Because it essentially means they won't be his enemies anymore. They become assets.
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I just realized we never found out what T'challa and Aneka agreed to in their secret off panel conversation that wrapped up the season 1.
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[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689573]The Jabari people aren't allies. What has T'Challa gained since their new leadership? Did the Jabari fight against Tetu and Zenzi? No. Did they help fight the Originators? No. Did they help close the portals? No. Did they help fight against Klaw and Azania? No. Did they help fight against the Adversary? No. Coates has had multiple moments to use them as BP's allies and hasn't. With the current story set in the future and space, the Jabari are even less help than they already were.
If the Dora never rebelled in the first place a lot of problems would've been handled with less Wakandan blood being shed instead they chose to spill a lot more. The next time a faction within Wakanda rebels should T'Challa pardon them and give them land after they had taken many lives on the possibility that they could be allies? Maybe T'Challa's other enemies should've just copy what they did.[/QUOTE]
You last passage illustrates the flawed writing of Coates in the early books. It just makes no sense in conceding to terrorists demands, hell its the official policy of ours and other nations. It's a dumb thing to do on such a basic level. True fans know T'challa written properly would found a better way even if it was something he never thought to plan for. Like Mr. Maj called it early on and even now we still see elements of the fact Coates may be able to somewhat write stories but he doesn't get THIS character.
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[QUOTE=KingNomarch;3689349]Criticisms with season 1 went far beyond BP getting overshadowed by the supporting cast. Rape camps being rampant in Wakanda with T'Challa knowing about them and did nothing, his character traits being given to other characters. The Dora Milaje suddenly feeling oppressed, the lack of good action, T'Challa bringing despots into Wakanda to seek their council even though he was fully aware of the terrible things that they've done to maintain their power. Coates harping on how T'Challa is a scientist at heart but haven't given him but has him many scientific feats and using other people's tech like Doom’s for something that he could've easily invented or have used kimoyo to do. Wakanda, a nation that defeated the Skrulls and repelled the Black Order multiple times is nearly brought to destruction by mooks with guns that had no military leadership.
The MA and Dora who were mentioned for being responsible for the death of legions of Wakandan soldiers don't get punished but are rewarded with their own land even though back in Priest's run T'Challa said he wouldn't do anything like because it'd inspire other tribes to do the same. The MA and Dora aligning with Tetu and Zenzi then breaking it off with them after Shuri threatens them and then don't bother with defending the country they claim to love in the final battle and still get rewarded in the end.
Shuri telling abuse/rape victim that what happened to that they should've been left to die because it wouldn't have mattered as long as Wakanda still stood, and I believe Shuri said something like that not once but twice.[/QUOTE]
but what does any of this have to do with how the new issue should be assessed or criticized?
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3689407][B] Because it's a generic story with a huge reliance on literally turning this Wakandan empire into the European slave trade. Beware said it best:[/B]
[B]So it's not like these are baseless criticisms[/B][/QUOTE]
from what I've read and seen this is a brand new take on tchalla stirt fo it is not generic. the parallels that exist to slavery I dont get or understand why its problematic. if fans dont lije that I guess it's a fair criticism but it's still way to early to decide how everything pieces together when we are still just in issue 1.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3689593]Sure you can argue a lot less problems would have happened if the Doras didn't rebel. Rebellions are troublesome. No one is disputing that. But the question is whether or not T'Challa should have allowed them to rule the Jabari land, or go to war with them and punish them for their crimes. The later is perfectly fair given the situation... but it means likely killing more Wakandans. The former arguably is letting them off the book... but it does mean he gained them as allies again protecting Wakanda. You can certainly argue what T'CHalla did wasnt' fair... but there was more to gain in handling things the way he did than simply by punishing them.
And if T'Challa's enemies copy what the DM did, and become protectors of Wakanda willing to work for him then T'CHalla would probably be okay with that. Because it essentially means they won't be his enemies anymore. They become assets.[/QUOTE]
[B] That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of.
The rebellion was stupid. Straight up. BP WoW confirmed how it all went down and it's the MAs fault as they caused all the issues then start acting like woe is me we are the victims when they found out information going on in one of the tribes, decided on Their own to not to move it up the chain of command, decided to handle it themselves, and botched the first mission, Killing a chieftain who was unarmed and should of been easy to detain to bring him to justice.
You know what should of happened? The ma should of been Banished at the very least and the Dora's given a choice. Stay or be banished as well. Especially since the ma willingly chose to ally themselves with known terrorists, and only left when Shuri threatened them with destruction. For all their bravado of protecting Wakanda, in the end, they didn't.
They hid with their tails between their legs, then like a spoiled child or a teenager who thinks they are more mature then they actually are. Threw a fit because T'Challa and the Royal family weren't just going to let them be and give them what they wanted. But then because POS, Tchalla does that. And Even after that on S2 they start off acting like entitled brats.
Also if T'Challas enemies followed suit and he was dumb enough to allow that (kill a bunch of Wakandans and take Wakandan land and want to be protectors) then he would be removed from power in a heartbeat. That is completely ludicrous that you would think it would be a good idea[/B]
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Bottom line:
The Midnight Angels betrayed their oaths, broke Wakandan law, escaped prison, stole classified tech, allied with foreign terrorists, killed a tribal chieftain and claimed the land of another tribe for themselves without any justification whatsoever. And their punishment for it was... a 2-minute apology & getting everything they wanted.
And then, when they actually had to DEFEND the land they claimed, they proved to be utterly hopeless, and had to be rescured by the same "one man" they so virulently decried when it suited them.
Allies like that, Wakanda doesn't need. They remind me of those college students who, afire with political zeal, march in political protests instead of going to class, but go running back to Mommy & Daddy when they discover that they are not only flunking out, but could actually go to jail. :D
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3689989][B] That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of.
The rebellion was stupid. Straight up. BP WoW confirmed how it all went down and it's the MAs fault as they caused all the issues then start acting like woe is me we are the victims when they found out information going on in one of the tribes, decided on Their own to not to move it up the chain of command, decided to handle it themselves, and botched the first mission, Killing a chieftain who was unarmed and should of been easy to detain to bring him to justice.
You know what should of happened? The ma should of been Banished at the very least and the Dora's given a choice. Stay or be banished as well. Especially since the ma willingly chose to ally themselves with known terrorists, and only left when Shuri threatened them with destruction. For all their bravado of protecting Wakanda, in the end, they didn't.
They hid with their tails between their legs, then like a spoiled child or a teenager who thinks they are more mature then they actually are. Threw a fit because T'Challa and the Royal family weren't just going to let them be and give them what they wanted. But then because POS, Tchalla does that. And Even after that on S2 they start off acting like entitled brats.
Also if T'Challas enemies followed suit and he was dumb enough to allow that (kill a bunch of Wakandans and take Wakandan land and want to be protectors) then he would be removed from power in a heartbeat. That is completely ludicrous that you would think it would be a good idea[/B][/QUOTE]
The MA didn't cause the issues. There were clearly rapists before the Doras took matters into their own hands. They didn't create the problem ... If anything they solved it. They she's it in a very questionable manner both legally and morally, but they got results. That's why people got behind them in the first place.
And effectively the DM wanting to separate from Wakanda is banishment. They all wanted to be apart from T'Challas government. But T'Challa wanted to continue working with them because he clearly saw they could still be allies.
As far as T'Challa,being removed from power over what he did with the DM ... clearly he's not removed from power so that doesn't seen to be a problem.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;3689986]from what I've read and seen this is a brand new take on tchalla stirt fo it is not generic. the parallels that exist to slavery I dont get or understand why its problematic. if fans dont lije that I guess it's a fair criticism but it's still way to early to decide how everything pieces together when we are still just in issue 1.[/QUOTE]
[B]It's a new direction, but the story itself is such a generic sci-fi plot, that everything in it is literally interchangeable with any other sci-fi franchise.
The fact that Coates has gone from not so subtle analogues and tired tropes of a western view of Africa and
then literally making early Wakandans into pilgrims to signify they are no better then anyone else, to a very heavy handed story of Wakandan galactic empire being a literal allegory for European slave trade, using actual European names and locations for the story..
If you seriously can't see why Wakanda, the very definition of afrofuturism, Black excellence, and Black potential being used in this manner is problematic? Then I don't know what else to tell you, there is a reason why BP enthusiasts aren't happy about it, while Coates fans and unfans would enjoy it (those who lack real knowledge of Bp and those who love to read black dysfunction in Wakanda because they think BP is a Mary Sue)
[/B]
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690024][B]It's a new direction, but the story itself is such a generic sci-fi plot, that everything in it is literally interchangeable with any other sci-fi franchise.
The fact that Coates has gone from not so subtle analogues and tired tropes of a western view of Africa and
then literally making early Wakandans into pilgrims to signify they are no better then anyone else, to a very heavy handed story of Wakandan galactic empire being a literal allegory for European slave trade, using actual European names and locations for the story..
If you seriously can't see why Wakanda, the very definition of afrofuturism, Black excellence, and Black potential being used in this manner is problematic? Then I don't know what else to tell you, there is a reason why BP enthusiasts aren't happy about it, while Coates fans and unfans would enjoy it (those who lack real knowledge of Bp and those who love to read black dysfunction in Wakanda because they think BP is a Mary Sue)
[/B][/QUOTE]
Honestly I think the arguement rhat anyone who likes Coates is an u fan or not an enthusiast is pretty shallow. Fans can have differing opinions.
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690023]The MA didn't cause the issues. There were clearly rapists before the Doras took matters into their own hands. They didn't create the problem ... If anything they solved it. They she's it in a very questionable manner both legally and morally, but they got results. That's why people got behind them in the first place.
And effectively the DM wanting to separate from Wakanda is banishment. They all wanted to be apart from T'Challas government. But T'Challa wanted to continue working with them because he clearly saw they could still be allies.
As far as T'Challa,being removed from power over what he did with the DM ... clearly he's not removed from power so that doesn't seen to be a problem.[/QUOTE]
[B]Your (poorly) attempting to counter my point.
The MA did cause the issue actually. BP WoW confirms this. The reason Aneka is in jail and the no one man crap starts is because they didn't report valuable information up the chatof command, they decided to ttit upon themselves and failed to bring the accused into for proper justice. When they are then having to deal with the consequences of breaking the law, they claim that they are the victims and it's actually the governments fault for not handling it (even though they are apart of said government and didn't report it) then go on to side with terrorists, impede on another tribes territory and do a hostile take over, and then ally with terrorists who are killing the people they claim to be protecting.
Had they reported it, then T'Challa would of handled it and it would of been done with in a way that didn't cause a ton of blood shed.
And no, banishment is not staying in Wakanda and getting to keep land from a hostile take over from a different tribe. Banishment is being removed from Wakanda. It's not getting everything you wanted after breaking the law, and killing your neighbors. And the fact Coates makes Tchalla make such a stupid decision is also trouble some because they are are not reliable allies.. especially because when the story started guess what? They were allies. So turning allies turned enemies back into allies are not a group you want to be working with if your smart. Because they are trustworthy.
And if you actually read what I said, I said he would be removed from power of he started allowing enemies of Wakanda to kill Wakandans then turn them into allies after giving them exactly what they wanted[/B]
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[QUOTE=XPac;3690051]Honestly I think the arguement rhat anyone who likes Coates is an u fan or not an enthusiast is pretty shallow. Fans can have differing opinions.[/QUOTE]
Fans attacking other fans is a pretty staple thing. No one “fandom” seems above taking part in it.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;3690063][B]Your (poorly) attempting to counter my point.
The MA did cause the issue actually. BP WoW confirms this. The reason Aneka is in jail and the no one man crap starts is because they didn't report valuable information up the chatof command, they decided to ttit upon themselves and failed to bring the accused into for proper justice. When they are then having to deal with the consequences of breaking the law, they claim that they are the victims and it's actually the governments fault for not handling it (even though they are apart of said government and didn't report it) then go on to side with terrorists, impede on another tribes territory and do a hostile take over, and then ally with terrorists who are killing the people they claim to be protecting.
Had they reported it, then T'Challa would of handled it and it would of been done with in a way that didn't cause a ton of blood shed.
And no, banishment is not staying in Wakanda and getting to keep land from a hostile take over from a different tribe. Banishment is being removed from Wakanda. It's not getting everything you wanted after breaking the law, and killing your neighbors. And the fact Coates makes Tchalla make such a stupid decision is also trouble some because they are are not reliable allies.. especially because when the story started guess what? They were allies. So turning allies turned enemies back into allies are not a group you want to be working with if your smart. Because they are trustworthy.
And if you actually read what I said, I said he would be removed from power of he started allowing enemies of Wakanda to kill Wakandans then turn them into allies after giving them exactly what they wanted[/B][/QUOTE]
You didn't say enemies of Wakanda... you said enemies. Something the MA were at the time. They killed Wakandans, took land, and were turned into allies without him being removed from power. Which is fine since it worked out better for everyone anyways.
And I certainly agree the MA started the rebellion ... But they aren't the cause of the actual problem. The actual rapists were.
Would allowing the Wakandan government handle it have led to less blood. But that's part of the reason the MA got the following they did. They dealt with it Punished style and made the problem go away.
As far as whether or not they are trustworthy... We will see. That's up to Coates I suppose. They seem trustworthy enough to get their own one shot books.
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Why did the men of Wakanda become weaklings to the point that rape was an avenue? Why did a Wakandan chief engage in attacking young fictional girls? Did the fictional men feel powerless in the aftermath of Namor's flood and The Cabal scorching of Wakanda? Do they need counselling sessions like some real world churches conduct to talk about male problems? Why was a gender war necessary in the first place?
[url]http://www.uh.edu/socialwork/news/news-releases/2015-06-10_McPhail_FFP.pdf[/url]
"Beverly McPhail (link is external) of the University of Houston seeks to knit together several feminist theories of rape into a new comprehensive model. In a useful and poignant reminder that the political is personal, she notes that rape is both “a political, aggregate act whereby men as a group dominate and control women as a group"
Don't worry. When I want my 'warrior nation' fix, I turn on 300 just to hear the answer to 'Spartans ...what is your profession?"
Or I will go to the multiplex to hear the call and answer of 'Yibambe' by a warrior nation in Infinity War.