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[QUOTE=Realdealholy;2342904]From a narrative standpoint, it's mostly likely #1 or #4.
We've known that the royal family doesn't always consist of the noblest of individuals. T'Chaka founded the Hatute Zeraze to do the dirty work of the kingdom. So it's entirely possible that some shadiness, known or unknown to some or all of the royal family, is present, including as far as the herb is concerned.
#4 is probably the best compromise however. Fits pretty well too.[/QUOTE]
That is what i thought. It reconciles Don's, Priests, Hudlin's, and Hickman's version of things the best. And, IMO, adds more to the mythos. Powered by a god is cooler than "weed" lol
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The way it was broken down in the movie kind of made the most sense I.e. T'chaka was King, and T'challa was Black Panther. The King was the leader of the Nation, and The Black Panther was the defender. However, it was very possible for a member of the royal family to be both. I suspect the reason Shuri became Queen was because T'challa didn't want to essentially grab power back from her, so he allowed her to remain the ruler. She was originally the "Princess Regent". As stated in Mayberry's run "Regent" in itself spoke to a temporary position for a determinate amount of time. She essentially only stepped in, until T'challa could recover from his battle with Doom. However, Post-Doomwar rather than return to Wakanda, T'challa went into Hell's kitchen to test his meddle and Shuri was left ruling Wakanda for an Indeterminate amount of time, so at that point it made more sense for her to move from Regent to Queen, because theres no telling how long that was going to take. Kind of like how someone goes from Interim head coach, to just Head Coach. Now fast forward after T'challa leaves Hell's Kitchen , things were more or less going ok for Wakanda, also by that time Shuri had come into her own as Queen, and so it really made no sense for T'challa to take his thrown back from her.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2342940]That is what i thought. It reconciles Don's, Priests, Hudlin's, and Hickman's version of things the best. And, IMO, adds more to the mythos. Powered by a god is cooler than "weed" lol[/QUOTE]
It was to be the weed to SOME degree since synthetic versions of it seem to work.
That said, the fact that T'Challa is depowered immediately after losing the title sort of takes the issue the other direction.
One of the many instances the writers aren't quite on the same page I guess.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2342998]It was to be the weed to SOME degree since synthetic versions of it seem to work.
That said, the fact that T'Challa is depowered immediately after losing the title sort of takes the issue the other direction.
One of the many instances the writers aren't quite on the same page I guess.[/QUOTE]
Yeah nothing fits perfectly, not even close.
The synthetic version could have been a mix of whatever Killmonger used to power himself up
or maybe he just gave Kasper angel dust
#donttrustkillmonger lol
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2342847]Last time this came up, I thought about it too much. It was a weird scene, and trying to make it work with the rest of BP history and future comics is some fun fan fic. Some reasons could be...
1) The Royal Line is shady. The tournament was nothing but a way to give the population the illusion that they can actually take out the royal line.
This theory kinda sucks just because... well its shady. T'challa seem to have no idea it was going to happen and was basically shamed when Killmonger died and he was BP by default. And T'challa was seemingly going to give Kasper the herb next.
2) Killmonger is an idiot. Dude gets some random root, he has Hunter egging him on, and he just downs that thing like its a damn Oreo. The root could have easily been compromised by Hunter, who had a fanatical relationship with Wakanda and the royal line and was the one egging Killmonger on from the very beginning. Killmonger is the ONLY person we have seen have an adverse effect to the root. Pre-Priest, it took a ceremony to take the root and it had to be "properly prepared."
3) Whatever Killmonger did to enhance himself and/or come back from the dead more than once reacted badly with the root. The only confirmation that "the herb is poisonous" is Killmonger himself saying it. How would he figure that out (he was described as clever, not a genius. Remember, he needed a monkey to help him in Hudlin's run) yet T'challa couldn't? The royal line could take it, Spider-Man took it with 0 effects. Zawadi or whatever apparently took it with zero effects.
4) Bast punished him, not the herb. The herb in HUdlin's run took you in front of bast to be judged and it was Bast who gave you the powers. I believe it was mentioned in pre-priest runs about being "worthy" of the herb (id hav eto go check my notes on the blog and I can't on this computere to be sure). So, Bast being a weird vindictive god, put Killmonger in a coma, we just didn't see it on panel. She chose coma instead of death so that T'challa could some day regain his honor and as a way to try and humble Killmonger
5) no one at marvel cares about the history of Wakanda so they just let the writers do w.e the hell they want[/QUOTE]
[B]I think a hybrid of 2 and 4 would be likely case too, Hunter knew that Kilmonger would be easy to egg on once he got the win over T'Challa, feeling overly confident, he became easier to manipulate, with Hunter knowing that Bast wouldn't find him worthy and that maybe she would (hopefully in his mind) kill Kilmonger. [/B]
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[QUOTE=KidStranglehold;2342282]Coates has done the IMPOSSIBLE! He surpassed Michael Brian Bendis as my most HATED writer in Marvel comics. He has actually surpassed Avengers vs X-Men, Hickman and many others in the molestation of Black Panther and his mythos. He did all of this as a BLACK male writer. Amazing...[/QUOTE]
Idk if he has gone that far yet. AvX set a pretty high bar surpassing One More Day and pushing me away from mainstream comics. At least with Coates, I think you can retcon his work and pretend the Dora's situation didn't happen.
AvX and Storm Marvel's just continually slapping me in the face with it.
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[QUOTE=Vic Vega;2342809]Which begs the question: Is the title of Black Panther seperate from the title of King or are they one and the same?[/QUOTE]
As has been noted, it depends on whose writing the character. Yes, Hudlin made them one in the same, which retconned Priest's run which said they were two separate titles, which is a course a retcon of the original premise that "Black Panther" was simply a name and costume that T'Challa made up himself.
[QUOTE=Vic Vega;2342809]If they are the same, then potentially any sucker with a good right hook could potentially end up running the place. Which is one more reason Priest assumed that the challege had to be rigged somehow.[/QUOTE]
Which it technically is, since only the various members of the royal family have access to the heart-shaped herb, which grants them their various superhuman abilities. Certainly that would explain how Uncle S'yan, as we saw in Hudlin's first issue, was able to beat so many challengers, including one twice his size, despite being an older man by that time, and then was only defeated by his nephew T'Challa, who had access to that same herb but was also younger and better-trained.
[QUOTE=Vic Vega;2342809]It's not a Monarchy if you can't ensure that your offspring inherit the throne.
That, or you have to buy that T'Challa' ancestors have an 1000+ year winning streak going over all comers.
Or Bast has favored T'Challa's line over everybody else in Wakanda. Since as far as we know there's
never been a Black Panther that wasn't from the royal line.[/QUOTE]
Well, we only know 4 previous Black Panthers before T'Challa that were definitely part of his bloodline. His uncle S'yan, father T'Chaka, grandfather Azzari and then going all the way back to the very first Black Panther, Bashenga. In between Bashenga and Azzari it is possible that there have been non-Royal family BP's who ruled Wakanda for certain periods of time, before a royal family member took the mantle back in battle. Even if it's just a year at a time, since I guess you'd have to wait until the next annual challenge to get another shot. In fact, in that opening New Avengers arc (which I am currently halfway through and loving it, so far!), T'Challa talks to one of those young boys, saying that boy's grandfather was the Black Panther of his time. And there was nothing to indicate that that boy was related to T'Challa.
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Per priest, tchalla didnt get the herb until after right of ascendion
And shuri is in the line and she dudnt get it until her right of ascension
Tchalla was without the herb/bast when he beat syan
But, going by Liss run, the line of bashenga seems mildly enhanced without it
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Well, then I guess that still makes the fight "rigged", in two ways. The current BP always that automatic advantage over all the civilian challengers. And then perhaps whenever he is ready to step down, he simply throws the fight to the next member of the royal family. That seemed to be what S'yan's son, who had already fought and been beaten by his father, thought when T'Challa won, that his father wanted T'Challa to win over him. And even with T'Challa wearing a mask, S'yan would have been able to smell him, so he knew who it was.
Still, it must be possible that on occasion a really well-skilled Wakanda civilian would be able to get the drop on the ruling BP, even without the herb, and therefor gain the throne. I wish they could do a regular feature of short backup stories, "Tales of Wakanda" or something, showing adventures of past Black Panthers. Let's see the BP who drove back the Roman army, the one who faced Alexander The Great, etc.
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Yeah, we really only get a snapshot of he process... a snapshot that isnt consistent and changes
Do we even know if a BP can retire? Or does he hold on until he loses?
Oh btw, another nail in the "only bloodline can eat the herb" theory is that Syan expected Storm to become black panther during deadliest of the species and storm refused... so unless syan was pulling some sly "i hate her" stuff... the herb isnt poisonous as she has no royal blood
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2343314]Yeah, we really only get a snapshot of he process... a snapshot that isnt consistent and changes
Do we even know if a BP can retire? Or does he hold on until he loses?
Oh btw, another nail in the "only bloodline can eat the herb" theory is that Syan expected Storm to become black panther during deadliest of the species and storm refused... so unless syan was pulling some sly "i hate her" stuff... the herb isnt poisonous as she has no royal blood[/QUOTE]
[B]Didn't she take the herb when she and T'Challa got married and Judged by Bast?
I don't think Hudlin's version is rigged per se, Priest version was or seemed like it but I think its going off of Hudlin's now, which they take the herb to be judges. Hence why in Hickman's run, T'challa mentioned to one of the Wakandan youth that his great grandfather was a BP of his time[/B]
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2343267]Per priest, tchalla didnt get the herb until after right of ascendion
And shuri is in the line and she dudnt get it until her right of ascension
Tchalla was without the herb/bast when he beat syan
But, going by Liss run, the line of bashenga seems mildly enhanced without it[/QUOTE]
Could be that some minor enhancement passes on to the children of a Black Panther giving them an advantage without needing the herb.
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During the Hickman run, Tchalla commented that one of the graduates ancestor was a Black Panther.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2343320][B]Didn't she take the herb when she and T'Challa got married and Judged by Bast?
I don't think Hudlin's version is rigged per se, Priest version was or seemed like it but I think its going off of Hudlin's now, which they take the herb to be judges. Hence why in Hickman's run, T'challa mentioned to one of the Wakandan youth that his great grandfather was a BP of his time[/B][/QUOTE]
Hmmm she did meet bast, cant remember hiw, yay something to do tomorrow lol
[QUOTE=Cville;2343343]Could be that some minor enhancement passes on to the children of a Black Panther giving them an advantage without needing the herb.[/QUOTE]
Thats been my fan theory since T'challa's exploits in hells kitchen
He mentions being peak human, his feats sypport that, despite him constantly saying he no longer had his powers
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2343437]Hmmm she did meet bast, cant remember hiw, yay something to do tomorrow lol
Thats been my fan theory since T'challa's exploits in hells kitchen
[B]He mentions being peak human, his feats sypport that, despite him constantly saying he no longer had his powers[/B][/QUOTE]
I always thought him being peak was due to his training, he wasn't moving like old T'Challa now that I remember, i recall a villain in the book saying how he move a lil slower that DD or something of that nature.
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[QUOTE=Cville;2343349]During the Hickman run, Tchalla commented that one of the graduates ancestor was a Black Panther.[/QUOTE]
Yup, his name was Tkonda aka the Wall
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[QUOTE=memnoch;2343455]I always thought him being peak was due to his training, he wasn't moving like old T'Challa now that I remember, [B]i recall a villain in the book saying how he move a lil slower that DD or something of that nature[/B].[/QUOTE]
Nope, it was luke cage that said he had never seen DD move that fast not knowing it was BP
[img]https://s25.postimg.org/qdobu6npr/Screen_Shot_2016_10_12_at_00_36_51.png[/img]
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;2343482]Nope, it was luke cage that said he had never seen DD move that fast not knowing it was BP
[img]https://s25.postimg.org/qdobu6npr/Screen_Shot_2016_10_12_at_00_36_51.png[/img][/QUOTE]
[B]J think in Liss run I think it's Vlad's son comments he isn't as fast as DD[/B]
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[QUOTE=memnoch;2343455]I always thought him being peak was due to his training, he wasn't moving like old T'Challa now that I remember, i recall a villain in the book saying how he move a lil slower that DD or something of that nature.[/QUOTE]
Well he isnt
DD is a bullet timer. His speed/reaction feats are insane
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;2343482]Nope, it was luke cage that said he had never seen DD move that fast not knowing it was BP
[img]https://s25.postimg.org/qdobu6npr/Screen_Shot_2016_10_12_at_00_36_51.png[/img][/QUOTE]
Wat issue is that from?
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2343490][B]J think in Liss run I think it's Vlad's son comments he isn't as fast as DD[/B][/QUOTE]
Thank you, it was mentioned!
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2343623]Wat issue is that from?[/QUOTE]
End of Shadowland, I think. Somewhere around there.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2343620]Well he isnt
DD is a bullet timer. His speed/reaction feats are insane[/QUOTE]
Isn't what exactly?
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[QUOTE=memnoch;2343669]Isn't what exactly?[/QUOTE]
Bp isnt as fast as DD, based on feats. Matt is a beast
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2343675]Bp isnt as fast as DD, based on feats. Matt is a beast[/QUOTE]
Even without the herb/blessings of bast? Even the clip posted in the other page sort of confirms BP is faster.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2343675]Bp isnt as fast as DD, based on feats. Matt is a beast[/QUOTE]
I think they're supposed to be roughly as fast as each other.
But yeah ... based purely on feats few guys short of true speedster have DD's feats.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2343684]I think they're supposed to be roughly as fast as each other.
But yeah ... based purely on feats few guys short of true speedster have DD's feats.[/QUOTE]
LOL! ,I usually say the same about T'Challa.
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[QUOTE=memnoch;2343687]LOL! ,I usually say the same about T'Challa.[/QUOTE]
When comparing feats at least, it's simply not fair. DD has more uber good ones because he's been published almost nonstop for decades.
If BP had a solo for as long I'd wager they'd be pretty dead even as far as feats go.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2343623]Wat issue is that from?[/QUOTE]
Daredevil issue 521. The shadowland story
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[QUOTE=XPac;2343716]When comparing feats at least, it's simply not fair. DD has more uber good ones because he's been published almost nonstop for decades.
If BP had a solo for as long I'd wager they'd be pretty dead even as far as feats go.[/QUOTE]
I love this point.
Really enjoy you guys dialogue about the herb. I am fond of the Bast explanation because I am proponent of all things coming from Bast. At least , on a mystical end
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[QUOTE=memnoch;2343682]Even without the herb/blessings of bast? Even the clip posted in the other page sort of confirms BP is faster.[/QUOTE]
Dude Daredevil swats bullets away in mid air with a cane
[img]http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/118094/3296586-2056592-db2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213858/5011451-bulletswattingwhitehair.jpg[/img]
dude has some HIGH end feats man.
T'challa's speed feats are actually pretty mediocre. Typical aim dodge stuff and a couple feats of catching things thrown at him.
Now, in a foot race, T'challa is likely faster. So I guess there is a couple different types of "speed."
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[QUOTE=Dboi654;2343906]Daredevil issue 521. The shadowland story[/QUOTE]
Was T'challa actually in that story?
Been so long since I read it. Wasn't the best event in the world....
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[QUOTE=HUTHAIFA;2343920]I love this point.
Really enjoy you guys dialogue about the herb. I am fond of the Bast explanation because I am proponent of all things coming from Bast. At least , on a mystical end[/QUOTE]
I have been meanign to make a blog post about the history of T'challa's power ups (herb, bast, voodoo, king of the dead, ect)
Unfortunately... the project got sooooooooooooooooo long and convoluted I haven't gone back to it yet lol. (that and I got distracted by the history of killmonger v tchalla)
It is a fun subject to talk about IMO because there is no definitive take adn trying to get all of them to work out is fun fan theory stuff.
Some of Don's stuff made it really seem like a true process. Preparing it right, a whole ritual, ect. And then it swung the other way where Killmonger just eats its like a candy apple.
The introduction of Bast was cool and just prevents people from just finding and eating it themselves (what stopping any mildly enhanced dude from climbing the damn mountain and eating the shit?)
Just need some consistency from here on out. Which I doubt.
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[QUOTE=XPac;2343716]When comparing feats at least, it's simply not fair. DD has more uber good ones because he's been published almost nonstop for decades.
If BP had a solo for as long I'd wager they'd be pretty dead even as far as feats go.[/QUOTE]
Yep, published non stop
and DD isn't bullet proof. When T'challa got "updated" in Priest's run, the bullet proof suit kinda made dodging things pointless.
and then on top of that, the various anti-gun tech introduced in Hudlin's run.
Guns and Bullets are kind of the least effective tool in comics lol. Punisher is the only oen that seems to actually kill anyone with them. Maybe he has Judas bullets
People have better success with knives lol
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2344112]Dude Daredevil swats bullets away in mid air with a cane
[img]http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/118094/3296586-2056592-db2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213858/5011451-bulletswattingwhitehair.jpg[/img]
dude has some HIGH end feats man.
T'challa's speed feats are actually pretty mediocre. Typical aim dodge stuff and a couple feats of catching things thrown at him.
Now, in a foot race, T'challa is likely faster. So I guess there is a couple different types of "speed."[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it might be more accurate to decribe DD's uber feats as having superior reflexes and reaction time. In a foot race I'll wager even most DD fans would agree T'Challa would win. But as far as bullet time feats, DD is king in the MU.
Though like you mention in another post, in a lot of ways he needs to be. Steve has a shield, Logan has a healing factor, and T'Challa has a vibranium suit. Whereas DD has a cane. So DD either needs to be written as a bullet timer or he's written dead.
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[QUOTE=Ezyo1000;2343320][B]Didn't she take the herb when she and T'Challa got married and Judged by Bast?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Ok I hunted it down.
There was no mention of the herb in the issue. One second they were standing in front of Ramonda, there eyes go white, nad then they basically just teleported
It was actually kinda weird, like a panel is missing or something lol
[img]http://i.imgur.com/MRTEOFA.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/q2BdvYS.jpg[/img]
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2343675]Bp isnt as fast as DD, based on feats. Matt is a beast[/QUOTE]
Black Panther is faster than Spider-Man. It's been established multiple times.
Edit: This reminds me, there are a lot of feats I need to add to the list.
Anyone want to give me a hand? Take a look at page one and let me know what I've missed. Citations are helpful, but in lieu of specific issue numbers, the magazine and author are good.
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All five fights of T'challa vs Killmonger
[url]http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/p/tchalla-vs-killmonger.html[/url]
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[QUOTE=Things Fall Apart;2344226]Black Panther is faster than Spider-Man. It's been established multiple times.[/quote]
Mostly based on someone saying it. Not actually showing it in any sort of quantifiable way unfortunately. Spidey and others going "wow he's fast"
Travel speed wise, he chased down sabertooth, which is very impressive. But his dodging feats are kind of "meh" for someone who is constantly commented on how fast he is.
Esp when compared to Matt, who has some ridiculous, impossible, on panel feats behind his name.
T'challa needed to be written during the old days more to rack up these crazy overpowered feats honestly
[quote]
Edit: This reminds me, there are a lot of feats I need to add to the list.
Anyone want to give me a hand? Take a look at page one and let me know what I've missed. Citations are helpful, but in lieu of specific issue numbers, the magazine and author are good.[/QUOTE]
Here
[url]http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/p/black-panther-feats.html[/url]
I've got scans and citations up until Hickman's run. Which I need to start re-reading and there are only a handful fo feats in there anyway from memory.
my job is boring lol
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;2344274][B]Mostly based on someone saying it. Not actually showing it in any sort of quantifiable way unfortunately. Spidey and others going "wow he's fast" [/B]
Travel speed wise, he chased down sabertooth, which is very impressive. But his dodging feats are kind of "meh" for someone who is constantly commented on how fast he is.
Esp when compared to Matt, who has some ridiculous, impossible, on panel feats behind his name.
T'challa needed to be written during the old days more to rack up these crazy overpowered feats honestly
Here
[url]http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/p/black-panther-feats.html[/url]
I've got scans and citations up until Hickman's run. Which I need to start re-reading and there are only a handful fo feats in there anyway from memory.
my job is boring lol[/QUOTE]
[B]Havent there actually been several different shows in which case Spidey is tagged by T'Challa and he comments on his speed and that he didn't think he would be fast enough to tag him? One was kinda old but Soidey was sporting the Black suit, then there was in Liss run too, I want to say there was one more as well[/B]