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[QUOTE=dzub;1010858]one of the biggest clues were in new avengers #27 when molecule man put on doom's mask and told the story black swan was telling. how did we miss that[/QUOTE]
He was telling the opposite of the black swan story (which is how Avengers #1 starts out, I think)- her story is "first there was everything, and then there was nothing..."
that exchange in NA#27 frustrates me, but now it's getting clearer. The whole thing about the myth vs truth of story plays very well with what we learned today
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Gillen played a lot with the idea of using myth and the telling of a story to change things in his Journey into Mystery run.
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[QUOTE=Biclopcicle;1010919]He was telling the opposite of the black swan story (which is how Avengers #1 starts out, I think)- her story is "first there was everything, and then there was nothing..."
that exchange in NA#27 frustrates me, but now it's getting clearer. The whole thing about the myth vs truth of story plays very well with what we learned today[/QUOTE]
close enough i guess
i thought it was gibberish at first..now it makes sense
what does take a god to kill a god mean though?
takes thor, a god to kill beyonders or doom, a 'god' to kill them?
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[QUOTE=jphamlore;1010922]Gillen played a lot with the idea of using myth and the telling of a story to change things in his Journey into Mystery run.[/QUOTE]
Well, there is a library...I'm afraid...JiM taught me to fear books.
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All this talk of Val being a major player makes me think of Ultimate FF, wherein Miles Morhammes says that only universes wherein Reed and Sue have children will survive.
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[QUOTE=dzub;1010992]close enough i guess
i thought it was gibberish at first..now it makes sense
what does take a god to kill a god mean though?
takes thor, a god to kill beyonders or doom, a 'god' to kill them?[/QUOTE]
Probably along this line:
Using the idea of story and how a story can be perceived as reality, thus true magic, Doom pretty much sets up a plan where in he or someone creates a religion around him telling his story. All stories, when perceived to be reality become that reality, thus enable the one that drafts the story to become god. Following so far?
Doom as a god via the religion that he created now can effect possibly the world tree and other such things. In order to gain an advantage over the beings that he wants believing him to be a great destroyer more then likely uses his own magic and Molecule man's powers to create the red incursions so that he may create an army (or pawns) on a chess field (the set up of Battle world) to stop the beyonders from saying "Screw this place we need to remake everything because our toys aren't playing the way we want them to."
So the god is pretty much Doom who's made people believe he is a god, thus becoming one. Sort of like how belief in Thor gives him powers and such.
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The problem is the Beyonders are beyond being gods relative to the Marvel Multiverse. They are not even part of the known story by definition.
At this point I fail to see an alternative to doing what Pym did, shrink small and hope the Beyonders don't notice him and go away, unless the Beyonders are somehow depowered or unless Doom and Molecule Man can figure out how to manipulate white space.
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So was the universe where Doom acquired the Infinity Gauntlet and tried to build his perfect empire the same universe where the Nazi Reed Richards accidentally destroyed the Earth using the Infinity Gauntlet, thus starting the chain reaction of incursions?
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It seems that the Dio meme pretty much sums up the reveal of the issue.
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[QUOTE=dzub;1010992]close enough i guess
i thought it was gibberish at first..now it makes sense
what does take a god to kill a god mean though?
takes thor, a god to kill beyonders or doom, a 'god' to kill them?[/QUOTE]
I was actually wondering about that because I can't see how the Multiversal Avengers last a second against the Beyonders.
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[QUOTE=jphamlore;1011135]So was the universe where Doom acquired the Infinity Gauntlet and tried to build his perfect empire the same universe where the Nazi Reed Richards accidentally destroyed the Earth using the Infinity Gauntlet, thus starting the chain reaction of incursions?[/QUOTE]
I don't think we yet have any reason to believe Doom's use of the Infinity Gauntlet inadvertently created the incursions.
Basically, Doom used a bridge to travel to an empty space where a universe used to be, and then initiated creation. So the point here is: why should merely filling an empty space with worlds start myriad cross-dimensional earths colliding with one another?
As I understand it, the universal space in which he created Doomverse was already pre-existent in the multiverse, so other universes have no real cause for being squeezed out of their own alignment just because he filled Doomverse up with worlds.
So I don't think we can yet say exactly how the incursions were initiated.
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[QUOTE=Darkspellmaster;1010658]Wow So much to talk about, By the way Teepee great job with the spectuations and being right! :)
Brains would have to go to probably T'challa as he's letting his emotions do most of the leading of him for the majority of the run. Heart has to be Tony since he's become inverted and isn't remembering who he really is as a person. Courage I would say Reed since he's the one that normally wouldn't give up and now he is, so he needs that. Way home is Namor because he's lost and isn't sure where to go from here only forward due to the fact that everyone pretty much, he thinks, turned on him in the end.
Can I say that I semi called it in the Loki Apprication thread?
[URL="http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?369-Loki-Appreciation&p=899516&viewfull=1#post899516"]http://community.comicbookresources....1#post899516[/URL]
And this may have been me again. Not sure...I did mention the idea of the world tree connection in Avengers 42 thread
King Loki comes from the future after Secret Wars. He apparently is up to something in regard to his younger self, although it's up in the air if he's there to help or hinder AoA Loki. And Yes King Loki did experience it as he keeps referring to hints about the future...Oh god...in the Loki thread we keep talking about who could be writing Loki's story and who's managing King Loki. If Doom is behind a lot of this, could he also be the one writing Loki's story to help himself?
You know how everyone keeps asking How Doom is going to be a god? Well he already knows how thanks in part to King Loki and Loki himself.
Agent of Asgard 6.
[URL="http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/4873522.html"]http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/4873522.html[/URL]
So Doom went into the Future and sees a burned out earth where he meets King Loki and a skull that warns him to remember and about death of ego and other such things that King Loki calls a spoiler. He also tells Doom that the place they're in is Doom's home country and then sends him back to the present where he decides in order to stop Loki, who he thinks is behind the whole burned down earth, has Val pull him into the castle and well this is where things get interesting.
After Val catches Loki who tried to turn invisible
Doom Hits Loki knocking him back to the ground. And this is where it get's interesting. Bear in mind in AoA the idea of story and the roles people play in it are what keep Thor and the other gods among the living. They play roles, their parts in the over all story and narrative. So how does one become a god that is able to handle the beyonders...well you have to think what a God is made of...
Doom brings in the Doom Bots and Loki makes a quip about the bots being all the same as Doom. Doom says it's a fair question and explains that the do so that he can fool that it's to fool others in the event that he ever acts outside of being himself or if he ends up dead for some reason then people will think it's a doombot and the reverse is true.
It's interesting with the idea of religion and how Doom is controlling the swans under that assumption. If a story and a legend can be woven into something that people believe then a person who is mortal can then use true magic if there is belief in that. I think honestly this is going to be part of Doom's plan when it comes to dealing with the Beyonders and the Incursions. Because, as Doom says, if he is a legend that unites a nation, what then is Rabum Alal but that? A legend that is uniting the swans under his religion that he created and that they believed in.
Oh and one other small question. Does anyone think that Val is in on Doom's plans? Her Ark thing could be connected to all of this. Are they working together in some way?[/QUOTE]
Is this sort of like Sutter Cane from In The Mouth of Madness where if you have enough followers it becomes a reality.
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I wonder if this storyline will go all the way and have it revealed that Valeria really is somehow Doom's daughter by mystical means. So Doom not only helped Valeria be born, but she is his daughter, and it was she who rescued him from the universe where he was trapped, the universe that started the incursions.
So the story is more and more starting to resemble the Dr. Who storyline the Curse of Fenric where Fenric reveals to the Doctor and Ace that he manipulated everything including Ace's history so that she would reveal the secret of the chess game freeing Fenric from the Doctor's power. The Curse of Fenric, which I have no doubt Hickman must have seen when he was much younger, is also a madcap mishmash of myth and technology, from vampires to pollution hellspawn from the future to World War II's Bletchley Park being subverted to decode to release Fenric and tapping poison from the World Tree.
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[QUOTE=jphamlore;1011135]So was the universe where Doom acquired the Infinity Gauntlet and tried to build his perfect empire the same universe where the Nazi Reed Richards accidentally destroyed the Earth using the Infinity Gauntlet, thus starting the chain reaction of incursions?[/QUOTE]Its the same universe. Whether it started the chain reaction remains to be seen. I'm of the opinion it did not. I can point to 2 instances of destroyed universes before that. One was the What if Korvac Had Won reality where he ended the universe using the Ultimate Nullifier. There was non-existence that Strange, Surfer, and Phoenix returned to, but the universe itself was still gone and Eternity killed. The other being 616 that Thanos destroyed in Marvel: The End. Yes he recreated it, but reality was gone.
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[QUOTE=davew128;1011171]Its the same universe. Whether it started the chain reaction remains to be seen. I'm of the opinion it did not. I can point to 2 instances of destroyed universes before that. One was the What if Korvac Had Won reality where he ended the universe using the Ultimate Nullifier. There was non-existence that Strange, Surfer, and Phoenix returned to, but the universe itself was still gone and Eternity killed. The other being 616 that Thanos destroyed in Marvel: The End. Yes he recreated it, but reality was gone.[/QUOTE]
Hickman's Fantastic Four #611 is being reprinted in the trade prequel for his Secret Wars, so I'm guessing this is going to be explicitly mentioned in the storyline as the origin of the incursions.