-
THAT REMINDS ME OF THE The Fountain .
[IMG]https://lisathatcher.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/the_tree_of_life.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.soundonsight.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/the-fountain-40-1024x578.jpg[/IMG]
(the tree of life)
maybe all the dead worlds come back for revenge in spirit form?
-
[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;1057213]Why do I even need to know about Pokemon for this. You find a weakness and you can win no matter the power disparity. This has been happening since David and Goliath.[/QUOTE]
Yes. I was just choosing Pokemon as something that had a complex battle system.
-
[QUOTE=TresDias;1056897]And then a few issues later we saw those same heroes with those same powers and those same weapons take another crack at it with a different plan and succeed in killing Exitar. That didn't make them more powerful than him. They didn't need to be. You don't have to be more powerful than an opponent to defeat them -- superheroes have been following that for a very long time.
If you've read the manga of "Akira," you know the eponymous character had the power to destroy a city in a single moment, but all it took was one well-placed bullet.
Pym and Brian Braddock explicitly state that the Beyonders laid a trap to be found by decoding the harmonic structure of wild space, with the intent being to draw those digging into the matter to a specific location -- that location being the nexus of real and wild space.
Pym also explicitly said that the battles were taking place in that nexus: "I watched as they discovered the location of the Ivory Kings themselves, and the manufactured Manifold made the jump. ... We jumped into the nexus of real and wild space just in time to watch a single Beyonder confronting the last Celestials of the universe we were currently in."
Abyss and Ex Nihilo then explicitly said that the Beyonders the Multiversal Avengers defeated had taken on a solid state, making them vulnerable --
Abyss: "The forms they take are manifestations -- solid states containing their very essence. ... The Ex Nihilii have fully visualized the Beyonder's current form."
Ex Nihilo: "Solid. And therefore its most malleable state."
A distinction in circumstances was drawn here. A distinction that explains what you wish to insist is some drastic inconsistency.
The "inconsistency" has been explained. The "power scales" appeal has been soundly refuted. Be satisfied.[/QUOTE]
Well put.
[QUOTE=The_Last_Czarnian;1057188]Sounds a lot like the concept in that King novel, IT. IT's true form is incomprehensible and instantly fatal to humans, but to feed, IT has to take on a physical form. And while it is physical, IT can be hurt. Even killed. By a bunch of humans in this case.
About right?[/QUOTE]
Sounds pretty similar, for sure.
-
[QUOTE=Hariel0079;1048614]Well they call themselves the Beyond not the Beyonders and as Abyss seemed to describe they don't seem to have a real form.[/QUOTE]
All I have to say is this! *drops mic* ;)
[url]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bVW1PXLvwOw/UZgMazLbwsI/AAAAAAAAFuk/_5LDvOtbhAI/s1600/Warlock+exposition+2+%2528Marvel+Two+In+One+63%2529.jpg[/url]
-
[QUOTE=hawkeyefan;1056228]Well, I don't think we know yet, definitively. There are implications, so that's all I was going on. But the Beyonders by no means "lost to Thor's group" as you say. Maybe two were killed. Maybe.[/quote]
My sentence was "There has to be an extremely solid reason for two Beyonders to lose to beings which are infinitely less powerful than them". I said "two Beyonders", not all Beyonders. These two clearly lost to Thor's group, so I'm not sure what you're arguing about here, unless you misread me.
[QUOTE=hawkeyefan;1056228]
I think it seems pretty clear that whatever power the Beyonders wield is extra lethal to beings who are tied to the universe. The energy they blasted the abstracts with is devastating to the abstracts. Whether this energy is innate to them, or if it's a product of wild space or a combo of those two things, we don't know.[/quote]
There's nothing that's "pretty clear" about how a group of herald-level heroes managed to take out two Beyonders, when it takes one Beyonder to take out a universe's entire Celestial host. There's nothing on-panel about the Beyonders' powers being specifically lethal against abstracts and not regular beings. There's nothing indicating that they're much weaker in different types of spaces. That's pure speculation and certainly not "pretty clear". The only thing we do know is that they are more vulnerable in their "solid form" (which in itself is pretty stupid since we know cosmic-level beings fight on different planes simultaneously, meaning they don't tend to only have one form at a given time, but w/e), and that they were therefore profoundly stupid for facing beings which are way below them power-wise in the only form they might lose to them.
[QUOTE=hawkeyefan;1056228]
But let's say Reed had the Ultimate Nullifier and he blasted an Abstract with it. The Abstract is done for, right? Does that mean that Reed would then be beyond harm from beings like Thor and Starbrand?[/quote]
It depends on the abstract - I don't think a multiversal Living Tribunal would be phased by an Ultimate Nullifier. The UN is still a specific weapon though, just like Thor's Celestial-killing axe is a specific weapon, just like the Infinity Gauntlet is a specific weapon. The Beyonders did not seem to beat the Abstracts thanks to a specific weapon without which they would be vulnerable, they simply outpowered them. Likewise, the heroes did not use a specific device that would explain how they won. Their basic powers were apparently enough, against beings capable of taking out the Living Tribunal. There has to be more to it or it's pure PIS.
[QUOTE=hawkeyefan;1056228]
I get that we don't know what the Beyonders did exactly , or how...I suspect we won't necessarily find out....but I just don't see how it's really that different from what we've seen before in comics. I mean, if Doom can steal the power from a Beyonder, then why can't a Beyonder kill a Celestial or an abstract?[/quote]
I'm not disputing the fact that Beyonders can kill Celestials (elthough I do find it ridiculous that Hickman decided to have his pet characters trash the Living Tribunal) - it's how Hickman introduced them to us. What I do find problematic is for herald-level heroes to take out beings that have been [I]defined[/I] as immensely more powerful than them. Doom stole a Beyonder's power through a device that he built specifically for that purpose, so there's obviously no issue with that. If Spider-Man built a device designed to siphon Odin's power and he succeeded, I would find that acceptable. If Spider-Man decided to take on a full-power Odin with his fists and won, however, that would be utterly ridiculous. We just witnessed exactly that, namely heroes who are supposed to be about as far below the Beyonders in the cosmic hierarchy as ants are to them, and they somehow defeated the Beyonders using their regular powers, apparently thanks to Beyonders being in "solid form". That's PIS at its finest.
[QUOTE=hawkeyefan;1056228]
I wouldn't be surprised if the multiverse collapse due to the incursions has left the Abstracts weaker than they normally would be. It's pointed out throughout the story that the universe is dying. And what are the Abstracts but manifestations of different aspects of the universe?
Perhaps that left them vulnerable to the attack of the Beyonders.[/QUOTE]
That is an interesting suggestion indeed, but there's nothing on-panel that suggests this to be the case (Celestials are not really manifestations of different aspects of the universe, though). Also, I think the abstracts would have noticed they were getting weaker without Reed and the Illuminati having to tell them that something was going on.
-
[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;1057213]Why do I even need to know about Pokemon for this. You find a weakness and you can win no matter the power disparity. This has been happening since David and Goliath.[/QUOTE]
I can buy the "any given Sunday" school of thought up to a point.
But if we're talking about beings capable of defeating the LIving Tribunal, then I think some degree of explanation is in order to really make it work.
-
[QUOTE=divad4686;1056659]In that same run the Apocalypse twins used an axe to kill another celestial. For all we know the ex- nihilii combined with the abyss power could be the beyonders Jarnbjorn. And that Decay sphere alone was a lot more that any of the twins could do. It makes perfect sense that if two twins could kill a celestial, at least 10 ex nihii plus abyss can kill a Beyonder, who was also in his weakest form. [/quote]
The axe was specifically enchanted for that purpose. The Ex Nihili & the Abyss simply used their powers together, and nothing indicates that their powers were specifically designed for hurting Beyonders, or that Beyonders were particularly vulnerable to their power (for another example of an upset which was legitimately explained by the author, we know that Celestials are particularly vulnerable to Sue's force fields due to where the fields come from, which explains how Sue was able to cut a hole into Exitar during the Celestial-Watcher war). All we know is that their solid form is "weaker" than their other forms, something I addressed earlier.
The twins can only kill a Celestial with their axe, so no, it doesn't "make perfect sense" for the ex nihili + abyss to kill a Beyonder. The two have nothing to do with each other. There has to be some kind of explanation provided to explain how beings ridiculously weaker than the Beyonders are able to take them on. It would make no sense for the twins to take out a Celestial either if they didn't have that specific axe.
[QUOTE=divad4686;1056659]
And about starbrand, we don't really know the extend of that power, or where does it come from. Maybe at his full potential a Starbrand can also kill a celestial or Galactus.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that is true. Perhaps at his full potential he can also take TOAA's place. So far, though, his power was defined as "capable of destroying a planet". That's ridiculously below Celestials, Eternity, and the multiversal Living Tribunal, all of which got beat by the Beyonders, sometimes single-handedly.
-
[QUOTE=TresDias;1056897]And then a few issues later we saw those same heroes with those same powers and those same weapons take another crack at it with a different plan and succeed in killing Exitar. That didn't make them more powerful than him. They didn't need to be. You don't have to be more powerful than an opponent to defeat them -- superheroes have been following that for a very long time.
If you've read the manga of "Akira," you know the eponymous character had the power to destroy a city in a single moment, but all it took was one well-placed bullet.[/quote]
Like I said in my reply to divad4686, the twins killed Exitar thanks to a weapon enchanted to do precisely that. They didn't need to be more powerful than Exitar because they had that weapon. The heroes did not have a device specifically designed to defeat the Beyonders, all they did was use their regular powers. Do you honestly believe that this group of heroes was powerful enough to take on a universe's Celestial host using only their powers? Let alone all of a universe's abstracts, or the Living Tribunal? Unless there's an actual legitimate explanation for how they won, it's PIS, just like Spider-Man beating Firelord with his fists.
[QUOTE=TresDias;1056897]
Pym and Brian Braddock explicitly state that the Beyonders laid a trap to be found by decoding the harmonic structure of wild space, with the intent being to draw those digging into the matter to a specific location -- that location being the nexus of real and wild space.
Pym also explicitly said that the battles were taking place in that nexus: "I watched as they discovered the location of the Ivory Kings themselves, and the manufactured Manifold made the jump. ... We jumped into the nexus of real and wild space just in time to watch a single Beyonder confronting the last Celestials of the universe we were currently in."[/quote]
My understanding is that you're misinterpreting what Hickman wrote. Pym clearly states that the location of the fight that he witnessed between one Beyonder and one universe's entire host of Celestials was [b]within[/b] that same universe: "We jumped into the nexus of real and wild space just in time to watch a single Beyonder confronting the last Celestials of [B]the universe we were currently in[/B]" (emphasis mine). So they were indeed within a universe, but the nexus was some kind of link between different universes at those coordinates. That's why Pym then explains: "I could see the same battle taking place in different realities". All of the battles are taking place within universes, in regular space, but they're connected through the nexus, which is a multiversal link. But each Celestial host still fought a single different Beyonder each time, in their respective universes: "In each one [each reality], a different Beyonder facing... and destroying the Celestial host".
So it's certainly not said that the Beyonder's powers only work in wild space or anything of the sort - they fought the Celestials, and apparently the other abstracts, in their respective universes, in regular space being connected to the wild space at the nexus. The different realities were simply interconnected through the wild space, and Hickman refers to that connection as the "nexus of real and wild space". That's why earlier in the issue, Pym refers to an incursion point as "a momentary nexus of real and wild space".
[QUOTE=TresDias;1056897]
Abyss and Ex Nihilo then explicitly said that the Beyonders the Multiversal Avengers defeated had taken on a solid state, making them vulnerable --
Abyss: "The forms they take are manifestations -- solid states containing their very essence. ... The Ex Nihilii have fully visualized the Beyonder's current form."
Ex Nihilo: "Solid. And therefore its most malleable state."
A distinction in circumstances was drawn here. A distinction that explains what you wish to insist is some drastic inconsistency.
The "inconsistency" has been explained. The "power scales" appeal has been soundly refuted. Be satisfied.[/quote]
The only distinction that has been established so far is that the Beyonders were in their "solid form" when they faced the heroes, and apparently not when they faced the abstracts (although it's not even stated that they weren't in their solid form as well when facing the abstracts, we just have to assume that or it makes even less sense). I already addressed this: first, it means Beyonders are incredibly stupid for being in that solid form in the first place, and second it's hardly a good excuse for having beings capable of taking on the frigging multiversal Living Tribunal, and single-handedly destroying an entire host of Celestials, lose to a dozen herald-level heroes not equipped with any specific device designed to counter them. The heroes should have been wiped out based on how the Beyonders were defined, but that would hardly have made a good issue so Hickman decided to resort to PIS. "Be satisfied" in calling it what it is as long as there's no actual explanation for the power-level discrepancy not playing more of a role.
-
[Quote=ShaokhaN]I'm not disputing the fact that Beyonders can kill Celestials (elthough I do find it ridiculous that Hickman decided to have his pet characters trash the Living Tribunal) ...[/quote]
Shao. Let this one go, dude. You're sounding more out of touch with each post on the matter.
The Beyonders are not Hickman's "pet characters" -- they've been around for more than 30 years and pre-date the Beyonder of the first "Secret Wars."
[Quote=ShaokhaN]The twins can only kill a Celestial with their axe, so no, it doesn't "make perfect sense" for the ex nihili + abyss to kill a Beyonder. The two have nothing to do with each other. There has to be some kind of explanation provided to explain how beings ridiculously weaker than the Beyonders are able to take them on.[/quote]
It was provided right there on the pages. I even quoted the relevant passages for you. The Beyonders lured the Celestials and the Abstracts to a specific location, and clearly did so for a specific purpose -- or they would have just gone after those beings wherever they happened to be.
But they didn't.
They lured them to where it would be most strategically advantageous. For a reason.
On the other hand, two of them agreed to face Thor's crew more on their terms in a location that didn't provide the same strategic advantage. That left them more vulnerable, and they paid the price for their arrogance.
[Quote=ShaokhaN]Do you honestly believe that this group of heroes was powerful enough to take on a universe's Celestial host using only their powers?[/quote]
Stop framing the matter onto a false scenario. For the last time, being able to defeat someone doesn't indicate or necessitate being more powerful than they are.
Do you honestly believe Ryu in "Akira" was more powerful than someone who could destroy a city of millions within a few seconds? Even armed with a gun? He didn't have to be. He just needed to wound his still very human body (call it his "solid state") in a fatal spot.
[Quote=ShaokhaN]My understanding is that you're misinterpreting what Hickman wrote.[/quote]
No. Your understanding is that Hickman wrote the Beyonders as luring the Celestials and Abstracts to a specific location for a specific purpose, because that's exactly what they did.
For whatever reason, though, you're refusing to acknowledge it and insisting on framing the matter in terms that ignore all the provided context. Even little kids get the concept of Rock, Paper, Scissors, so I know you do.
By the logic you're using, a human being could never disable a nuclear bomb because the bomb yields an infinitely greater energy output. That's absurd, though, since the human doesn't have to generate a greater energy output to disable the bomb.
-
Is anyone reading this comic because the only people that take out a Beyonder are Starfire, the Abyss, and the Ex Nihilii.
One Beyonoder was destroyed by the total explosive power of Starbrand whose usual power has always been portrayed as a pretty huge bang. Also his activation was clearly reactive to a white event which is also thematically a consequence of The Beyonders.
As has been mentioned, what exactly it means to destroy a being who is manifesting physically from a transcendent realm is anyone's guess.
Look at this a little more thematically. When Abyss and the Ex-Nihilii realise that the Beyonder can 'change' they are recognising that they can make something new and life giving from one of them. They don't destroy it they just change it's form.
They then go on to apparently transform it into a world tree. The very mythical structure that in the present universe leads to the Asgardian mythology the source of their power.
The Beyonders are of the same stuff as The World Tree which is of the same stuff as the Asgardians and the Nidavell which are of the same stuff as Jarnbjorn which even explains why that weapon can destroy a Celestial.
P.S. Taking that one step further would suggest the Universe can be born again if the Seed of the World Tree, or a seed from it can be taken to Battle World. Given that we have Black Swan carrying her genetic heritage inside her I wonder if the Seed has been hidden inside one of the heroes.
-
[QUOTE=TresDias;1058882]Shao. Let this one go, dude. You're sounding more out of touch with each post on the matter.
The Beyonders are not Hickman's "pet characters" -- they've been around for more than 30 years and pre-date the Beyonder of the first "Secret Wars."[/quote]
As I showed in my previous post, you're the one who's having some real trouble understanding what's on-panel, but thanks for the personal attack.
I used the term "pet characters" because Hickman is obviously developing them and using them directly (as opposed to through proxies like the Nuwali in the past) more than ever before - I was obviously not saying he invented them. As of now, they're the main threat in the story now that we've seen the Great Destroyer is Doom. And Hickman's made them look as threatening as possible by having them defeat the highest echelons of the cosmic hierarchy, in particular the multiversal Living Tribunal.
[QUOTE=TresDias;1058882]
It was provided right there on the pages. I even quoted the relevant passages for you. The Beyonders lured the Celestials and the Abstracts to a specific location, and clearly did so for a specific purpose -- or they would have just gone after those beings wherever they happened to be.
But they didn't.
They lured them to where it would be most strategically advantageous. For a reason.
Your understanding is that Hickman wrote the Beyonders as luring the Celestials and Abstracts to a specific location for a specific purpose, because that's exactly what they did.
[/quote]
I explained to you why the quotes you provided actually agree with me and not with you - you just ignored my post and repeated what you said before. Sure, the Beyonders set up a trap for the Abstracts. But the point is that the trap still led the Abstracts to locations that were within their universes, and these locations were interconnected through the nexus. It's right there on-panel:
"We jumped into the nexus of real and wild space just in time to watch a single Beyonder confronting the last Celestials of [B]the universe we were currently in[/B]"
"I could see the same battle taking place in different realities. [B]In each one[/B], a different Beyonder facing... and destroying the Celestial host"
Feel free to ignore what's on-panel if you want, but it's still on-panel. The fights were going on inside the various universes, and jumping into the nexus is what allowed Pym & co to reach the location of the fight. The nexus of wild and real space refers to the fact that the wild space connects the universes (which are "real space"), meaning that the nexus is simply the location where this link to other universes appears and operates within the universes. That's why, like I told you previously, Pym refers earlier in the issue to an incursion point in which the Mapmakers appeared through a portal as "a momentary nexus of real and wild space". Again, it's right there on panel. And Pym explains that he could see the same battle taking place "in different realities" because all of those battlefields which were in the different universes are interconnected through the nexus. There's nothing on-panel that says the Beyonders' powers work better when they're outside of actual universes, and in fact they were like I just proved to you actually inside the various universes of the abstracts. Of course, they were still located where the nexus operated, so it's still possible to speculate that they needed the connection to wild space for their powers to work, but that's not said on-panel and they were still within actual universes.
[QUOTE=TresDias;1058882]
On the other hand, two of them agreed to face Thor's crew more on their terms in a location that didn't provide the same strategic advantage. That left them more vulnerable, and they paid the price for their arrogance.[/quote]
There is nothing on-panel that supports the idea the Beyonders were more vulnerable because of the location where they faced Thor's crew. It says they were more vulnerable because of being in a "solid form", which is a sorry excuse to have beings capable of taking out the multiversal Living Tribunal lose to characters that much weaker than them.
[QUOTE=TresDias;1058882]
Stop framing the matter onto a false scenario. For the last time, being able to defeat someone doesn't indicate or necessitate being more powerful than they are.
Do you honestly believe Ryu in "Akira" was more powerful than someone who could destroy a city of millions within a few seconds? Even armed with a gun? He didn't have to be. He just needed to wound his still very human body (call it his "solid state") in a fatal spot.
For whatever reason, though, you're refusing to acknowledge it and insisting on framing the matter in terms that ignore all the provided context. Even little kids get the concept of Rock, Paper, Scissors, so I know you do.
By the logic you're using, a human being could never disable a nuclear bomb because the bomb yields an infinitely greater energy output. That's absurd, though, since the human doesn't have to generate a greater energy output to disable the bomb.[/QUOTE]
You seem incapable of defending your point without resorting to shitty analogies that completely miss the point and misrepresent what we're discussing. The "logic [I'm] using" is simply that there needs to be a credible explanation for beings who are vastly inferior to other beings to be able to defeat these immensely more powerful beings.
In the case of Ryo shooting his enemy, he defeated him because the enemy's human body was vulnerable to bullets. Likewise, when Thor kills Exitar with his axe, it's because his axe is specially enchanted to do precisely that. When Sue manages to hurt Celestials with her forcefields, it's explained that it's because of the particular connection of Sue's forcefields to the Celestials (you can obviously still be a bit critical of this convenient plot point, but it's still explained clearly and is logically sound within the parameters of the story). Thanos beat Galactus because he was wearing the more powerful Infinity Gauntlet. David beat Goliath because he used his sling to hit Goliath's forehead with a rock, not because he somehow beat him with his fists.
In the case of what appears in NA #32, we are faced with two groups of characters which are so immensely apart in terms of power that there needs to be a solid explanation for the weaker characters to be able to beat the more powerful characters. We've seen that one Beyonder is capable of defeating single-handedly a Celestial host in their native universe, that they're similarly capable of taking out Eternity & the other abstracts, and even more impressively that together they were capable of taking out the [b]multiversal Living Tribunal[/b]. I cannot emphasize this enough, considering the multiversal LT was the most powerful Marvel character ever except for TOAA. And from what we've seen the Beyonders did not use a particular device or exploit a particular weakness of the LT, they simply out-powered him. So we're dealing with characters that are so much more powerful than the members of Thor's group that the latter should be wiped out in an instant if a fight erupted. For Thor's group to prevail, there needs to be a solid and well-thought reason provided...
...except the only reason provided is that the Beyonders were in a "solid form", and that it's the form they're the most vulnerable in. That's such a lazy excuse to have the heroes be able to beat them that it's not even funny. First, and like I said, it makes the Beyonders look incredibly stupid - they just defeated the LT and they get defeated (and possibly killed) by a bunch of herald-level characters because they were dumb enough to face them in their most vulnerable form. How stupid from them is that, seriously? Second, it's a lazy excuse because it implies a completely implausible decrease in resistance from the Beyonders. They were able to sustain the LT's attacks, which obviously operate on different planes of reality (including but not limited to the same as the Ex Nihili/Abyss and Starbrand attacks) and are immensely more powerful than anything Thor's group could do, but suddenly being in their "material form" makes the Beyonders so weak they're vulnerable to herald-level characters. That's such an amazing decrease in resistance that it's simply not plausible unless, like I said, there's a better reason involved.
Anyway, I think I've been clear enough in explaining my position to you as well as what's actually on-panel, so if you want to go ahead and consider that it makes perfect sense for Thor's group to take out beings that beat the multiversal Living Tribunal, on the technicality that they were in their "solid form", I'm happy for you. Meanwhile, I'll continue to call it what it is, namely PIS/CIS as long as we're not provided with a better explanation.
-
[QUOTE=JKtheMac;1058933]Is anyone reading this comic because the only people that take out a Beyonder are Starfire, the Abyss, and the Ex Nihilii.
One Beyonoder was destroyed by the total explosive power of Starbrand whose usual power has always been portrayed as a pretty huge bang. Also his activation was clearly reactive to a white event which is also thematically a consequence of The Beyonders.
As has been mentioned, what exactly it means to destroy a being who is manifesting physically from a transcendent realm is anyone's guess.
Look at this a little more thematically. When Abyss and the Ex-Nihilii realise that the Beyonder can 'change' they are recognising that they can make something new and life giving from one of them. They don't destroy it they just change it's form.
They then go on to apparently transform it into a world tree. The very mythical structure that in the present universe leads to the Asgardian mythology the source of their power.
The Beyonders are of the same stuff as The World Tree which is of the same stuff as the Asgardians and the Nidavell which are of the same stuff as Jarnbjorn which even explains why that weapon can destroy a Celestial.
P.S. Taking that one step further would suggest the Universe can be born again if the Seed of the World Tree, or a seed from it can be taken to Battle World. Given that we have Black Swan carrying her genetic heritage inside her I wonder if the Seed has been hidden inside one of the heroes.[/QUOTE]
I think this is a lovely way of thinking about the Beyonders.
I'm beginning to think that Doom is going to use them to create Battleworld. Thus, Battleworld will be made of the corpses of fallen god-killers :o
-
Fantastic issue.
Interesting that it cost Nightmask his life in order to get to the Beyonders, then it cost Abyss and all the Ex Nihilio's lives to transform one Beyonder, Starbrand's death to defeat the last Beyonder.
Also interesting was that the form they took in this issue was different than the one that saw in Pym's description of them in the previous New Avengers, yet was more in-line with the description Black Swan gave in the earlier New Avengers.
-
[QUOTE=Rosebunse;1059388]I think this is a lovely way of thinking about the Beyonders.
I'm beginning to think that Doom is going to use them to create Battleworld. Thus, Battleworld will be made of the corpses of fallen god-killers :o[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but Doom and Molecule clearly went back in time and so their 'Great Destroyer' cult could be a cover for all of those stolen parts of the various Earths. And the domes over previous incursion points could be him potentially grabbing multiple parts of 616 at the next incursion. I think this is within Molecule Man's power set. So the new world tree idea is more likely something that would be tied into the end of Battleworld. Of course we don't know enough yet to pin this all down.
-
[QUOTE=JamJams;1059502]Fantastic issue.
Interesting that it cost Nightmask his life in order to get to the Beyonders, then it cost Abyss and all the Ex Nihilio's lives to transform one Beyonder, Starbrand's death to defeat the last Beyonder.
Also interesting was that the form they took in this issue was different than the one that saw in Pym's description of them in the previous New Avengers, yet was more in-line with the description Black Swan gave in the earlier New Avengers.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, basically all the plot device-ish characters Hickman sort of sprinkled into the Avengers were sort of killed off in one swoop except for Captain Universe. I assume Hickman is saving her for last.