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[QUOTE=vitruvian;1071253]If Sol's Anvil actually gets all its power from the Sun, then evidently crushing a Beyonder is [I]easier [/I]than destroying a planet, and Starbrand is more than up to the job. After all, calculations of the amount of energy required to actually pull a Death Star on an Earth-sized planet have it take a good week's worth of the Sun's total power output, expended in less than a second:
[url]http://scienceblogs.com/builtonfacts/2009/02/04/the-physics-of-the-death-star/[/url]
So, what Starbrand can do at any time, Sol's Anvil would have to charge up for (assuming it even has the storage capacity) a week, multiplied by the inverse of whatever percentage of the Sun's energy it captures, in order to do the same.[/QUOTE]
Son Anvil multiplies the energy of the Sun. Hickman said that in his old formspring.
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Really folks? Trying to apply physics to comic-logic?
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If we had real world comics they would like earth Prime and not Marvel.
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[QUOTE=ShaokhaN;1071252]I agree with you that if all that we knew about Beyonders was that individual ones could be "crushed" by Sol's Anvil, then I would have much less of a problem with the Kevin Conner Star Brand being apparently able to defeat one in its "solid form".
What we saw from the Beyonders seems to suggest that them being defeated by Sol's Anvil should also be rather implausible, though. Such a weapon was unable to do anything more to the Mad Celestials than disassemble them (although perhaps it was not as powerful as the one the Council of Reeds used). In any case, and like I've said repeatedly, I'm perfectly fine with other people disagreeing with my position and seeing the two Beyonders' defeat to a few Ex Nihili, an Abyss, and Kevin Connor's Star Brand as plausible.[/QUOTE]
I totally understand what you're saying here. IIRC, and I may be wrong, in F4 603 Sol's Anvil actually does kill one of the 4 celestials and knocks out the combined form. That isn't exactly an unimpressive feat given the combined form just took down Galactus. So understand, Sol's Anvil is a pretty serious weapon. Used by the Reeds I can believe it "crushed" a Beyonder, where I'd take "crushed" to mean "destroy his physical form".
Once you accept that, Kevin taking out the physical form of a Beyonder isn't that big a stretch.
You still do have the problem that the Beyonders do kill the Cosmic Entities of the Multiverse, but here I think part of the problem is that we don't know how tough that was for the Beyonders to do. Pym implies that the battle took a very long time and was very protracted. Thanos was able to knock out all of the assembled Cosmics in the space of one issue with the Gauntlet, Nebula could do that too. A long protracted battle seems to imply that the Beyonders are not necessarily on the power level of the Gauntlet. It is also heavily implied that the Beyonders had set some sort of trap to stack the deck in their favor.
Of course they do take out the Tribunal, but again it looks like that was a prolonged multi-front multiversal battle. Logically, I can believe that the Tribunal could shut down the Gauntlet (he's multiversal, the Gauntlet only works in it's Universe) yet still fall prey to the Beyonders as they can engage him on a level the Gauntlet can't.
This all nicely sets the stage for the idea that the Ivory Kings CAN be beat, but it will certainly not be a trivial task to do it.
PS: I've always wondered if the Great Society managed to meet and defeat the Ivory Kings during one of their "missing" incursions. They seemed to be aware of their existence.
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[QUOTE=eaebiakuya;1074376]Son Anvil multiplies the energy of the Sun. Hickman said that in his old formspring.[/QUOTE]
Do you happen to have the link? I wonder where the energy to multiply the energy from the Sun is supposed to come from, if they can get multiple Suns worth of energy from nowhere, they shouldn't really need the Sun in the first place.
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[QUOTE=Anarchist;1074426]Really folks? Trying to apply physics to comic-logic?[/QUOTE]
Sure, applying science to a book Hickman is writing basically as science fiction. If the writer chooses to bring scientific and science fictional concepts such as Dyson Spheres into things, the writing can be judged on that basis just fine.
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It can be, but you have to expect more fiction than science. The science just gives it flavor.
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[QUOTE=TresDias;1074577]It can be, but you have to expect more fiction than science. The science just gives it flavor.[/QUOTE]
Sure, it's not going to be hard science fiction... we've got superpowers and FTL drives and a multiverse where you can travel between universes and times and all that. All stuff you have to hand wave since it's not going to work according to real world physics.
That's still no reason not to get things right in terms of orders of magnitude and so on when you can, or not acknowledge that things like violations of conservation of mass/energy [I]require [/I]some kind of hand wave. Growth and shrinking get Pym particles to explain them, so likewise extra energy coming from somewhere to multiply the Sun's output can be hand waved as zero point energy or something similar.
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[QUOTE=vitruvian;1074652]Sure, it's not going to be hard science fiction... we've got superpowers and FTL drives and a multiverse where you can travel between universes and times and all that. All stuff you have to hand wave since it's not going to work according to real world physics.
That's still no reason not to get things right in terms of orders of magnitude and so on when you can, or not acknowledge that things like violations of conservation of mass/energy [I]require [/I]some kind of hand wave. Growth and shrinking get Pym particles to explain them, so likewise extra energy coming from somewhere to multiply the Sun's output can be hand waved as zero point energy or something similar.[/QUOTE]
I always got the impression it was storing energy for later use. Whether it then uses some kind of light amplification process with this stored energy is not clear to me.
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One thing concerns me though that observing from the outside (reading forms like this) is how easily it seems how the cosmic gods are killed. Apoc twins killing an Celestial!!?? Give me a break. A Watcher killed by an "shotgun"?? Those Ex Nana beings,ugh. I hope someone comes along before I die and fix this crap. As long they are doing stuff like this,I'm staying away. No wondering comics don't have the sales they once did (I know their are other factors also. Make mine not Marvel or DCU).:p
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[QUOTE=vitruvian;1074565]Do you happen to have the link? I wonder where the energy to multiply the energy from the Sun is supposed to come from, if they can get multiple Suns worth of energy from nowhere, they shouldn't really need the Sun in the first place.[/QUOTE]
The energy comes from a stable geothermal vent under Old Atlantis, a dynamo in the Blue Area of the moon, and the High Evolutionary's Ascension Engine, all focused through a portal to the Negative Zone. Unfortunately the archived version of Hickman's formspring only goes back to the beginning of 2013. Here's a panel from FF #15, though.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]20222[/ATTACH]
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[QUOTE=misterfranklin;1075158]The energy comes from a stable geothermal vent under Old Atlantis, a dynamo in the Blue Area of the moon, and the High Evolutionary's Ascension Engine, all focused through a portal to the Negative Zone. Unfortunately the archived version of Hickman's formspring only goes back to the beginning of 2013. Here's a panel from FF #15, though.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]20222[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
So, none from the Sun, despite the panel saying so? Or are all those in addition to the solar energy?
Geothermal = piddly relative to the solar power gathered by even a small fraction of a Dyson sphere.
Dynamo in the Blue Area = no telling without knowing what kind of dynamo or where it's getting power from.
Ascension Engine = needs to consume energy/power from somewhere in order to operate and affect evolution - so would subtract from the power available, not add to it. Could be that's the active, weaponized part of the thing, though, rather than part of the power source....
Portal to the Negative Zone = real potential there. Conceivably, what with the Negative Zone being an antimatter universe, so that folks traveling from there to the regular universe or vice versa need to have all their particles reversed to the antiparticles in order not to annihilate upon contact with anything on the other side, if you omitted that step at the interface you could access pretty much limitless energy by allowing the mutual annihilation of matter and antimatter. The only problem is controlling and channeling the results of that reaction so you didn't just blow up everything around the portal on both sides.
But if the thing was running on matter/antimatter conversion, there wouldn't really be any point messing about with solar energy. It would be like throwing a match onto a bonfire....
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[QUOTE=JKtheMac;1074733]I always got the impression it was storing energy for later use. Whether it then uses some kind of light amplification process with this stored energy is not clear to me.[/QUOTE]
Amplification requires more energy, though. Doesn't come from nowhere, and if it did, then you'd just use your energy from nowhere directly....
But saying that the thing has practically unlimited storage capacity for the solar energy it absorbs, and has been active for long enough, pretty much works. Just makes it a one-shot device until you've had more months or years to absorb a full charge again.
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Let's just say there's a bunch of magnifying glasses arranged inside the sphere's firing doodad or whatsit. Problem solved. =P
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[QUOTE=TresDias;1076008]Let's just say there's a bunch of magnifying glasses arranged inside the sphere's firing doodad or whatsit. Problem solved. =P[/QUOTE]
Just checking... you're just joking about how badly science is written in comics, even by Hickman, not suggesting that lenses actually add energy to a beam of light rather than concentrating it, right?
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[QUOTE=vitruvian;1075970]So, none from the Sun, despite the panel saying so? Or are all those in addition to the solar energy?[/QUOTE]
You asked "where the energy to multiply the energy from the Sun is supposed to come from," I answered.
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[QUOTE=TresDias;1070442]I've been wondering that lately myself -- whether the power of the White Event (and, consequently, the Starbrands) comes from opening a hole to the Beyond Realm. The Starbrand's power is basically wish fulfillment like a Cosmic Cube.[/QUOTE]
Wow. That sounds like a great concept.
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[QUOTE=vitruvian;1076024]Just checking... you're just joking about how badly science is written in comics, even by Hickman, not suggesting that lenses actually add energy to a beam of light rather than concentrating it, right?[/QUOTE]
Choose your own adventure. =)
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[QUOTE=JKtheMac;1074733]I always got the impression it was storing energy for later use. Whether it then uses some kind of light amplification process with this stored energy is not clear to me.[/QUOTE]
I was always concerned with a true anvil that surrounds a sun. A sun usually radiates all the energy of its furnace right? But if the sun doesn't radiate, but keeps getting reflected back on itself, what does a runaway furnace do that can't get rid of its energy? I can't see an anvil surviving a solar explosion.
A true anvil would have to direct all the Suns energy away, continually. None of it could stay inside the anvil. But it means it's beam would be like a knife slicing through the universe. If it can kill a Beyonder, it is going to be a beam of energy going at light speed through space, to cause who knows what?
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[QUOTE=TresDias;1076053]Choose your own adventure. =)[/QUOTE]
Well, it's just that if it's the latter (actually not knowing that lenses don't add but only concentrate energy), I'm [I]going [/I]to correct you, because you're a real person rather than a comic book character and nobody should remain that misinformed... ;-)
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[QUOTE=jackolover;1076073]I was always concerned with a true anvil that surrounds a sun. A sun usually radiates all the energy of its furnace right? But if the sun doesn't radiate, but keeps getting reflected back on itself, what does a runaway furnace do that can't get rid of its energy? I can't see an anvil surviving a solar explosion.
A true anvil would have to direct all the Suns energy away, continually. None of it could stay inside the anvil. But it means it's beam would be like a knife slicing through the universe. If it can kill a Beyonder, it is going to be a beam of energy going at light speed through space, to cause who knows what?[/QUOTE]
First off, it's not that, because everybody on Earth has still been getting daylight and other places have been able to see the Sun.
Secondly, even if all the energy of the Sun (rather than whatever fraction a partial Dyson sphere can capture) were concentrated into one beam of energy, that beam would only have the power output of the Sun, which is way too little to blow up a planet. You'd have to save up all of the Sun's power output for a week or two, then let it all out at once.
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[QUOTE=misterfranklin;1076032]You asked "where the energy to multiply the energy from the Sun is supposed to come from," I answered.[/QUOTE]
Okay, but the geothermal isn't even enough to multiply the energy by a fraction of a percent, and if the others are big enough in magnitude that they can provide multiples of the Sun's power output, why not just use them directly?
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[QUOTE=misterfranklin;1075158]The energy comes from a stable geothermal vent under Old Atlantis, a dynamo in the Blue Area of the moon, and the High Evolutionary's Ascension Engine, all focused through a portal to the Negative Zone. Unfortunately the archived version of Hickman's formspring only goes back to the beginning of 2013. Here's a panel from FF #15, though.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]20222[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
That's an interesting claim (that Sol's Anvil is the most powerful weapon ever constructed by man only - I'm guessing he meant "at that time"). MC2 Reed Richards fired a ray that seems to have been similarly powerful, considering it incapacitated many of that universe's abstracts (including the LT):
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/pMhv9r6.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/vYasNzD.jpg[/IMG]
With regards to the argument that it's silly to mention PIS because the Star Brand comes from the superflow, I've provided enough quotes and references from 616 Hickman canon demonstrating it can very well be argued that we were not shown Kevin Conner had the type of power needed to defeat a Beyonder.
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I find the two Beyonders being defeated in New Avengers #32 much more plausible by the simple trick of imaging the Beyonders deciding to film a low-budget shaky-cam mumblegore movie with two of their most hapless yet overconfident millennium members. So I picture the Beyonders sending out their two most clueless members into their equivalent of the woods / hills to get their kicks out of seeing them dealing with the equivalent of monsters / mutated humanoids.
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[QUOTE=ShaokhaN;1076381]
With regards to the argument that it's silly to mention PIS because the Star Brand comes from the superflow, I've provided enough quotes and references from 616 Hickman canon demonstrating it can very well be argued that we were not shown Kevin Conner had the type of power needed to defeat a Beyonder.[/QUOTE]
I think what really happened is Hickman realised a few months ago that he wouldn't have the space to fully develop the character, so he farmed out the point release so that readers that were not familiar with the New Universe material would get a glimpse at the character's potential.
No one is saying your accusation is silly. I can plainly see how this can appear odd and out of the blue. But having read quite a lot of Starbrand material I didn't think twice about it. My posts here have been mainly pointing out that it is consistent with the source material Hickman is drawing from. Also, he plainly wanted the explosion to be a surprise just as the destruction of the Builder fleet was, so he didn't want to over-stress things.
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[QUOTE=vitruvian;1076217]First off, it's not that, because everybody on Earth has still been getting daylight and other places have been able to see the Sun.
Secondly, even if all the energy of the Sun (rather than whatever fraction a partial Dyson sphere can capture) were concentrated into one beam of energy, that beam would only have the power output of the Sun, which is way too little to blow up a planet. You'd have to save up all of the Sun's power output for a week or two, then let it all out at once.[/QUOTE]
No, I didn't mean Tony's partial anvil. I meant if someone totally surrounded a star with a spherical mirror and reflected all its energy back on the star, what would keep it from exploding with the eventual build up of energy in the anvil? And if a completed anvil had to be turned on continually to stave off star explosion, wouldn't that lance be strong enough to destroy a Beyonder, and so be cutting the universe where it was aimed?
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[QUOTE=hawkeyefan;1049557]Why is it stupid?
I really don't get this A always beats B always beats C mentality that so many fans have.
The right kind of spider can kill a man with a bite. Yet if a toddler came along and stepped on the spider, it'd squish just like you'd expect.
Frankly, thinking that because the spider killed a man meant it could never lose to something "less" than a man is what's stupid.
Indeed they did. That was a brilliant ending for this group. Sad to see Nightmask and Starbrand go, but at least they went out in style.
And I would honestly be okay if this was actually Thor's end. We all know it won't be, but if it was, I could accept it as a worthy ending for him.[/QUOTE]
So I see a lot of good theories as to why the Beyonders can be killed by Thor and Co. but the reality here is... the Celestial Deities, Living Tribunal, Etc. being nigh omnipotent, and having lived since the birth of the multiverse, and before... surely they would easily have been able to figure out the weakness of the beyonders well before mortals endowed with abilities... no matter how great the abilities...
The comparison of snakes, spiders... etc. Great. But these are beings that are Omnipresent, such as LT. If it took the beyonders.. a very long time to figure out how to take down the cosmic deities, and have mounted defenses again those attacks... it seems a little ridiculous that these hero's can figure out in a few months... if that.. how to defeat beyonders within the confines of wildspace, or in the properties of the host universe, where as these beings that have the ability to not just create life, but universes... knowing the past, present, and future could not figure this out in their nigh infinite existence.
I'm sorry, but that just doesn't add up to me. And the argument that the celestial deities are so high up the feeding chain that they over looked these things... they paid attention during all the infinity related events of the past. The beyonders are proving to be above that by taking out the LT... so if anything the Cosmic Gods would have taken note of the beyonders. And the beyonders, as someone noted... would have taken note of any being that could that them out... such as Starband in his death blow, or the Abyss/Nihlo transformation.... all seems like a HUGE stretch.
Maybe they just need Thanos to get the heart of the universe again and reset it all... but the beyonders will see that coming. The Squirrel Girl will take one of them out, maybe two if she has some pecans on her.
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Ugh, If Squirrel Girl does show up that really would be PIS.
Sorry but I have to agree with hawkeyefan here and frankly find these arguments about powers and if A can take out B etc to be pointless and tedious when your talking about the pantheon of Supreme Beings. I will be glad to know that the result of all of this is to thin the herd of them. There's far too many of them IMO. Gee I miss the days of just worrying about Galactus, the Stranger and Collector, etc. :)
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[QUOTE=jphamlore;1076449]I find the two Beyonders being defeated in New Avengers #32 much more plausible by the simple trick of imaging the Beyonders deciding to film a low-budget shaky-cam mumblegore movie with two of their most hapless yet overconfident millennium members. So I picture the Beyonders sending out their two most clueless members into their equivalent of the woods / hills to get their kicks out of seeing them dealing with the equivalent of monsters / mutated humanoids.[/QUOTE]
I been thinking about that for a while and I kind of want it to be true because that would be hilarious. Slightly wrong but hilarious.
[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;1096091]Ugh, If Squirrel Girl does show up that really would be PIS.
Sorry but I have to agree with hawkeyefan here and frankly find these arguments about powers and if A can take out B etc to be pointless and tedious when your talking about the pantheon of Supreme Beings. [B] I will be glad to know that the result of all of this is to thin the herd of them.[/B] There's far too many of them IMO. Gee I miss the days of just worrying about Galactus, the Stranger and Collector, etc. :)[/QUOTE]
I with you on that.