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[QUOTE=JKtheMac;2929932]I don't trust such categories. They are reminiscent of comparative religious theory, which is a somewhat dated approach to mythology.[/QUOTE]
How so, and opposed to what? If you don't mind detailing what you mean.
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To clarify, I am not reacting, just expressing a preference born out of my studies in the field of mythology. Also, I imagine Gillen has done some research regards theories of mythology, and I doubt he has deliberately chosen to use old fashioned methods. Judging by Cassandra's attitude (who seems to be the mouthpiece he uses to express theoretical ideas) that seems pretty unlikely. Therefore I doubt such categories will really inform a reading of this text.
Cassie would over react. She would tell you to take that colonial thinking elsewhere. I am not her.
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[QUOTE=JKtheMac;2938958]To clarify, I am not reacting, just expressing a preference born out of my studies in the field of mythology. Also, I imagine Gillen has done some research regards theories of mythology, and I doubt he has deliberately chosen to use old fashioned methods. Judging by Cassandra's attitude (who seems to be the mouthpiece he uses to express theoretical ideas) that seems pretty unlikely. Therefore I doubt such categories will really inform a reading of this text.
Cassie would over react. She would tell you to take that colonial thinking elsewhere. I am not her.[/QUOTE]
Okay, but I'm genuinely interested. I was hoping you'd give me some kind of primer on how to understand your perspective.
I realize some cultures and mythologies don't recognize underworlds or pantheons, but in the context of WicDiv, we're given both, and a seeming ultimate purpose(albeit from an unreliable sourse) for "sky gods" to "confront a great darkness".
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[QUOTE=CRaymond;2939281]Okay, but I'm genuinely interested. I was hoping you'd give me some kind of primer on how to understand your perspective.
I realize some cultures and mythologies don't recognize underworlds or pantheons, but in the context of WicDiv, we're given both, and a seeming ultimate purpose(albeit from an unreliable sourse) for "sky gods" to "confront a great darkness".[/QUOTE]
I am really not sure that is true. Some division was created, and used by Ananke for her own ends, and there is a hangover from those times now. But the Underworld as a concept means different things to different cultures, and I suspect Gillen is being looser and more playful. Certainly he used the Persephone story in a playful way.
I see Baal as being used to emphasise masculinity and patriarchy, and Woden in his aspect as magician. Neither are acting particularly like the typical distant sky god, overseeing creation.
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[QUOTE=JKtheMac;2939334]I am really not sure that is true. Some division was created, and used by Ananke for her own ends, and there is a hangover from those times now. But the Underworld as a concept means different things to different cultures, and I suspect Gillen is being looser and more playful. Certainly he used the Persephone story in a playful way.[/QUOTE]
So you're calling the context of the story unreliable? That the Underworld, as a plane inaccessible to some god-characters, doesn't exist in the context of the story --but except as a suggestion by Ananke to divide the pantheon? I hope to god I'm misunderstanding you, because what I read was incredibly evasive and dismissive to my request for clarification.
[QUOTE=JKtheMac;2939334]I see Baal as being used to emphasise masculinity and patriarchy, and Woden in his aspect as magician. Neither are acting particularly like the typical distant sky god, overseeing creation.[/QUOTE]
It seems obvious the "gods" are not one-to-one matches for the myths they are named for, and far more likely to be adjacent to archetypes, but this all began with a simple, shared categorization.
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[QUOTE=CRaymond;2939430]So you're calling the context of the story unreliable? That the Underworld, as a plane inaccessible to some god-characters, doesn't exist in the context of the story --but except as a suggestion by Ananke to divide the pantheon? I hope to god I'm misunderstanding you, because what I read was incredibly evasive and dismissive to my request for clarification.
[/quote] I find it quite amusing that you would demand anything in this context. Quite what you want me to clarify is beyond me.
What are you seeing as a plane of existence? All I am seeing is an aspect of one or two characters that are able to pull people underground. I don't see any evidence of planes or strange realms. And I especially don't see any evidence of the opposite, some above realm where the supposed sky gods can go, and underworld deities can't enter. Just some characters that can fly and levitate, and some that can teleport.
What we actually have are characters that have specific powers, nominally tied to certain deities that share some of those traits. These are superheroes with a theme.
[Quote]
It seems obvious the "gods" are not one-to-one matches for the myths they are named for, and far more likely to be adjacent to archetypes, but this all began with a simple, shared categorization.[/QUOTE]
I am simply suggesting that such categorisation, while an interesting exercise in and of itself, is probably not very useful as a predictive tool for how this story will progress.
Even the word 'archetype' is up for examination by this kind of story. It is certainly a disputed term in mythological studies. Mostly confined to Jungian thought, which despite its popularity in modern culture, is looked at as somewhat old fashioned as an analytical tool.
Of course Gillian may be working with this kind of model, but I am suggesting that if he is it may be in a challenging manner.
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Wikdiv moves back into its more controversial mode again, with changes to the icons and a new skull. This motif has been there from the start, and there is no reason to think that just because Ananke is gone, that the pantheon will not continue to kill each other. Here we have a death that feels just a little contrived. You can see it coming a mile away, and the fact that Baal couldn't is on him (unless we go with the conspiracy that he is continuing Ananke's work).
Amaterasu is shown to be as naive as ever, bringing up father's with Sakhmet, as if everyone had an idyllic childhood, and as if everyone thinks the colonial heritage of the British Empire is just delightful. At least she is aware of her privilege when it comes to the Museum.
Exactly why Sakhmet was visiting the British Museum's Egyptian collection is interesting. I doubt very much it was just to 'play tourist'. Maybe there is more to this killing than the obvious reminders of the past. Clearly it takes more than happy family feelings to pacify Sakhmet. Getting her (and everyone else) drunk was the traditional way, else she destroy humanity with conflict and warfare. Sakhmet may even have been calming herself before the statues that represent her.
Given that Percy is probably the only person that knew she would be there, this outcome is only going to make things worse, and we may be about to move into a phase of open warfare. The rising sun flag evoked in the final splash page, certainly evokes the 'Imperial Phase' we are currently in. Even in death Amaterasu remains a symbol.
Then we have the other less complete changes to the pantheon circle. Woden has made his move and apparently pulled the wool over Cassie's eyes. Distracting her at just the right moment, and then subverting their divination ritual. I don't think anyone should be surprised by this either, with Dio symbolically replacing his acolyte Orpheus in the clasping hands of the Maenads. I knew this was coming, sometimes my vague knowledge of classical myth and half understood readings of Calasso pay off. But then I suppose we all knew this was coming by the time we saw his red eyes and lack of concentration.
I imagine the fact the icons are not yet skulls suggests these characters are not yet dead. I don't imagine Dio will survive, but Cassie may. I can't imagine Gillen dispensing with his most knowing side. Who would he mock himself with then?
Then with a mirror of the Imperial Japanese, we get Woden's rock and roll fascism represented by that classic Queen, double fist salute. Does Gillen agree with Dave Marsh?
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Well holy ****. That was wild. Not necessarily the most unpredictable thing to happen, but still, holy ****. Gotta say, when I signed up for a story about gods who will all die within 2 years, I didn't expect them to die so much!
Wonder how the next issue will top this. The ominous cover is... well, ominous. And portends unpleasant things to come. Also, didn't Gillen say this was gonna be around 50 issues (or has that since changed?)? That seems like quite a bit left, for the rate things are going. Curious what the next arc will look like.
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[QUOTE=Jinjonator;3161436]Well holy ****. That was wild. Not necessarily the most unpredictable thing to happen, but still, holy ****. [B]Gotta say, when I signed up for a story about gods who will all die within 2 years, I didn't expect them to die so much![/B]
Wonder how the next issue will top this. The ominous cover is... well, ominous. And portends unpleasant things to come. Also, didn't Gillen say this was gonna be around 50 issues (or has that since changed?)? That seems like quite a bit left, for the rate things are going. Curious what the next arc will look like.[/QUOTE]
They were always going to start killing each other!
He is talking about this going for another year. I think it will be two more trades. That implies the twist in the tail that Cass and Percy have just discovered will probably carry us through the rest of the story. The theories on length originally came from a quote "It’s somewhere between 30 and 60 issues" - right now we are somewhere between those two. Expect another 11 or 12 at the most, plus specials.
It seems they have just placed Dio in limbo here. How can a 'hive mind' deity be brain dead. I think this is going to be an important factor towards the climax. The idea of mystery cults and their huge popularity in classical Greece seems to be being used as an analogy for club based pop culture in this story.
There is perhaps a clue in his bio/status at the beginning of this book.
[QUOTE]Dionysus. Hivemind dancefloor god. [B]Doesn't sleep[/B]. Loves Cassandra. Unconscious after powers cloned.[/QUOTE]
Hmm, why doesn't he sleep? Perhaps his consciousness only stays in the awake.
If you think about it Wodan only enhances others and has now supposedly cloned Dio's powers. He is a little like a DJ / Producer that mostly works the talent of others, and perhaps relies on remixing and sampling.
Compare that to Ananke who seemed to represent the music business itself, and the way it uses the young.
Surely Dio's powers are all about consciousness, and Wodan has stolen it. That probably isn't a great idea for him.
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Love the Russell Dauterman cover for the next issue:
[IMG]http://78.media.tumblr.com/861b43aafce347d9e8629fc77075fae6/tumblr_ov3kj7wHvQ1tuoa2wo2_540.jpg [/IMG]
It also gives Matt Wilson something to do on the cover given the main cover is ominously black.
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Here we go again. Answers that lead to questions.
As we surmised a way back Ananke is not just a really old god, she contains a legacy element. Presumably she sent the letter to Minerva, but even that seems odd because she could have hand delivered it. And my theory that she may have sent it to Dr Blake is also off because he is right there in the scene, disguised, so again she could have given it to him.
How reliable is the word of Minerva? What exactly does she mean when she declares herself to be Ananke? Are we to believe Ananke was never actually a primal goddess of necessity but actually a goddess of wisdom and strategy, or was the name, and the owl all a cover?
The 'Talking Heads' are a shock, but tie into the notion expressed by "Mimir" that the machine doesn't do anything. All along the heads were being teleported to an alter with Mesopotamian numerals.Either way Minerva is convinced that four heads equals averting the Great Darkness. This suggests that the three gods Lucifer, Tara and Inanna are not actually dead, unless they are 'repackaged recordings' to extend the record company analogy.
Who we believed to be Woden wasn't a deity at all! Mimir is a bit of a deep cut. Even Cassie seems to struggle to associate him. He is also depicted as a disembodied head which imparts wisdom to Odin, referred to here as "The Sky King's greatest treasure", and he was beheaded in Vanaheim, where he did indeed "Walk among your foes for the sake of love" or at least peace. He has an association with the World tree when named Mímameiðr, which sends a root into Mímisbrunnr or Mimir's Well, which Odin sacrificed his eye to. We see that dagger again, possibly he is being beheaded at this point by his father. We also see a pink headless body in the room, which begs the question where is the head.
Gillen suggests rereading in the light of revelations, and I suspect this may indeed be a good time to go back, but I seem to do that so many times with this book.
The explanation from Persephone also gives new meaning to the pun of The Faust Act. She actually belives she made a deal with Ananke, and that the deal necessitated her family dying.
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There is no comic out today that has me going 'WTF did I just read' like WicDiv. And of course now I have to go read it ALL again, especially the Blake bits. Love it.
Edit: Also, belatedly occurred to me that Ananke just lives the rest of the 90 years of the cycle the hard way. That's why there's always a young one? Always Minerva-who-becomes-Ananke? It was definitely a child-size glow when she was telling the story. Sure, we saw the young one from the 20s get blown up in the first issue (we thought) but we've been misled before. I just hope we have a revelation like what happened when Laura became Persephone. "And now you know the rest of the story..."
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[QUOTE=Ryochan;3241915]There is no comic out today that has me going 'WTF did I just read' like WicDiv. And of course now I have to go read it ALL again, especially the Blake bits. Love it.
Edit: Also, belatedly occurred to me that Ananke just lives the rest of the 90 years of the cycle the hard way. That's why there's always a young one? Always Minerva-who-becomes-Ananke? It was definitely a child-size glow when she was telling the story. Sure, we saw the young one from the 20s get blown up in the first issue (we thought) but we've been misled before. I just hope we have a revelation like what happened when Laura became Persephone. "And now you know the rest of the story..."[/QUOTE]
As an important part of the underlying premise is the idea that human culture necessarily totally renews itself every 100 years or so because nearly everyone dies, I also wonder if that is the implication. I don't think it is coincidental that we will soon see the background story surrounding that last cycle.
A note from my own observations, Wotan was brought into the pantheon, so he is technically a god, but he strikes me as a dangerous wild-card for Ananke to introduce. An older guy in a young person's game. Especially one with his own strong views on what the pantheons were for. The sex side of his personality certainly seems even less savoury now! I almost don't want to reread it thinking of his face under the helmet. The whole things feels even more exploitative and less consensual than ever. But then his son didn't exactly consent to being beheaded.
There is now an interesting theme on sacrifice in a more Vedic context. Sacrifice maintaining the world, and therefore being the most important thing. But why Babylnian numbers and not a nod to the Vedic era? I might need to research Mesopotamia and Sumerian sacrificial practices now. Certainly there was a strong culture of sacrifice being consensual in the Vedic thinking, which we don't seem to see here, unless the four heads are made to see reason in some hard to imagine manner. First Hickman and now Gillen are forcing me to reread my more dusty book shelves.
The pink suit is even more confusing now!
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So was Mimir the actual god of the Pantheon, and Woden was just a mortal who was acting as an interface? Presumably, that's why Woden couldn't actually do anything himself and why he had to rely on the Valkyries. But wouldn't the beheaded Mimir then give Ananke the one more head she needs to fight off the darkness? Where [I]is[/I] Mimir's head, anyway? (In the myths, Odin carried it around with him to give him advice whenever he needed especially wise counsel.) Also, is Minerva always a youngster who can maybe live until the next Pantheon? Does Ananke always become her, to live on until the next time? Is this because Minerva is the goddess of wisdom, and Ananke's role to preserve the ancient knowledge and impart it to each new Pantheon?
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[QUOTE=seismic-2;3245397]So was Mimir the actual god of the Pantheon, and Woden was just a mortal who was acting as an interface? Presumably, that's why Woden couldn't actually do anything himself and why he had to rely on the Valkyries. [/quote]
We can't be sure. In #14 we appear to see him reflect on his apotheosis. But do we? Is he just bathing in self loathing. He is described by Ananke as "But the pet of a god." Is that a reference to Ananke or his own son being his keeper?
[quote]But wouldn't the beheaded Mimir then give Ananke the one more head she needs to fight off the darkness? [/quote] She clearly gives Woden the head and responsibility. She does not claim it for herself. We can't tell why but I doubt it is entirely strategic. Mimir wasn't singing or performing when he was decapitated. Ananke didn't snap her fingers. She wants him to do his work. He has been making the artefacts as far as we can tell, not Wotan.
[quote]Where [I]is[/I] Mimir's head, anyway?[/quote] Right there in the secret room of the machine. On an artificial body. Next to a pink artificial body. That is weird. We learn who the other suited guy is. We expect him to be female but he isn't. Then we see another suit that is actually pink. Just weird.
And from the last panel of #14 the power dynamic is odd. Woden promises 'she' won't have his son's head, but he replies "After everything? Of course you won't." That sounds like an implied threat.
[quote]Also, is Minerva always a youngster who can maybe live until the next Pantheon? Does Ananke always become her, to live on until the next time? Is this because Minerva is the goddess of wisdom, and Ananke's role to preserve the ancient knowledge and impart it to each new Pantheon?[/QUOTE] Yep you are asking the same questions we all are. Nice to have some questions again.
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So did anybody read the xmas special?! Tehehehehe.
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I did read it. It was amusing but felt relatively tangential to the narrative. It gave us a few background insights into characters but not much really. It felt a little fan service focused. Indeed some moments felt like slash fiction, perhaps deliberately.
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[QUOTE=JKtheMac;3351948]I did read it. It was amusing but felt relatively tangential to the narrative. It gave us a few background insights into characters but not much really. It felt a little fan service focused. Indeed some moments felt like slash fiction, perhaps deliberately.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I think it was mostly intended as a light-hearted little breather, to treat us after all the trauma Gillan has put us through.
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[QUOTE=Jinjonator;3360985]Yeah, I think it was mostly intended as a light-hearted little breather, to treat us after all the trauma Gillan has put us through.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, although the Tara scene was far from lighthearted. It was a reminder that even if Anake is doing something important she is not going about it in a good way. She is unreconstructed evil in that scene.
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Hmmm. I have to admit, I wasn't super crazy about 1923, especially given the amount of time it took to read it. Didn't feel worth it. Probably a lot to analyze in it though maybe (which I am lazy, and inattentive to details when reading, so I won't be doing that myself). What did everyone else think?
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I haven't waded through it yet. Too many clauses in the sentence structure. If Gillen is deliberately trying to evoke the style of the times he is failing abysmally. The writers were mostly much better than this in the twenties. Only once before have I been quite so frustrated with prose in a comic, and that was the interminable gazetteer in the back of the Moore's LoEG.
Some people say readers that don't like prose in comics are just lazy. I would point out that if it was well written prose it would be a lot easier! This reads like passable fanfic.
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Yeah, this wasn't the best prose-in-comics. A.D. comes to mind as an example of it done very well.
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[QUOTE=Jinjonator;3437255]Yeah, this wasn't the best prose-in-comics. A.D. comes to mind as an example of it done very well.[/QUOTE]
Not through it yet, but the style does settle down a little as he moves into his Agatha Christie plot. I did like their self referential inability to encapsulate their number into a title. The momentum of the story curbs the language a bit. Gillen starts to focus on the action and less on flowery language and visual stuff. The frustration comes when he gives visual cues and it makes you think how good a comic mini series might have been with the right artist.
Notes so far.
Is this where Ananke first learns to get the gods fighting each other?
She is clearly concerned that their time is nearly up but nobody is dead, does that suggest she was lying all along and they don't have limited time?
I guess we didn't need to learn it but Ananke is pure evil in this story, I can only presume at some point we will get better context as to why she is so driven to do this.
I am undecided about Set. I kind of like the pun that she is a Virginia Woolf analog that has centuries of name dropping and 'more knowledgeable that you' opportunities, but it gets wearing after a while. I imagine VW did too but she had the intellectual acumen to back up her attitudes. Set just seems a bit of bore. At least Gillen didn't decide to go with stream of consciousness. Overwritten Christie is better than a poor imitation of Woolf.
The overall style seems to be early modernism in all of its forms. I like this but choosing to make the setting a kind of electro-chrome-punk house lessens the impact a bit. Modernism doesn't easily fold onto that punkish aesthetic, even if Metropolis does.
With the references to German modernist cinema, I am surprised Set hasn't had her say. I have not finished the story yet but Gillen seems to miss the opportunity. Woolf on Cinema was one of the most interesting things she contributed to modernist thought.
It is interesting that so much of this era seems to be focused on light. Not sure what that means yet.
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Initial stabs at some of the analogues:
Baal - Ezra Pound
Amaterasu - Clara Bow
Lucifer - Frank LLoyd Wright
The Norns - W.B. Yates
Set - Virginia Woolf
Woden - Fritz Lang
Dionysus - Pablo Picasso
Maybe Susanoo is Chaplin?
I cant get my head around Neptune. So much suggests a Captain Nemo figure but Verne would be too early. Hemingway is too late.
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[QUOTE=JKtheMac;3439664]Initial stabs at some of the analogues:
Baal - Ezra Pound
Amaterasu - Clara Bow
Lucifer - Frank LLoyd Wright
The Norns - W.B. Yates
Set - Virginia Woolf
Woden - Fritz Lang
Dionysus - Pablo Picasso
Maybe Susanoo is Chaplin?
I cant get my head around Neptune. So much suggests a Captain Nemo figure but Verne would be too early. Hemingway is too late.[/QUOTE]
Gillen confirmed on his Tumblr that Neptune is a mix of Hemingway (with his Spanish Civil War experiences converted to WWI) and Captain Nemo.
[quote]I guess we didn't need to learn it but Ananke is pure evil in this story, I can only presume at some point we will get better context as to why she is so driven to do this.[/quote]
From the description of the next issue, it looks like we're going to be seeing the very first iteration of the pantheon. So I imagine this next arc is going to answer a great deal.
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[QUOTE=JKtheMac;3439664]Initial stabs at some of the analogues:
Baal - Ezra Pound
Amaterasu - Clara Bow
Lucifer - Frank LLoyd Wright
The Norns - W.B. Yates
Set - Virginia Woolf
Woden - Fritz Lang
Dionysus - Pablo Picasso
Maybe Susanoo is Chaplin?
I cant get my head around Neptune. So much suggests a Captain Nemo figure but Verne would be too early. Hemingway is too late.[/QUOTE]
Susanoo is definitely Chaplin.
Neptune: Hemingway
Lucifer: Fitzgerald
The Quote at Verdandi's death hints at Orwell rather than Yeats
Also, I don'T think that Woden is Fritz Lang, as Lang was Jewish and despised the Nazis. As Ananke calls his Joesph, maybe he is actually meant tobe Goebbels?
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Some have actually said that Susanoo might be based off of a combination of Charlie Chaplin, Buster Keaton and Sessue Hayakawa.
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[QUOTE=Grendel0606;3441509]Susanoo is definitely Chaplin.
Neptune: Hemingway
Lucifer: Fitzgerald
The Quote at Verdandi's death hints at Orwell rather than Yeats
Also, I don'T think that Woden is Fritz Lang, as Lang was Jewish and despised the Nazis. As Ananke calls his Joesph, maybe he is actually meant tobe Goebbels?[/QUOTE]
Always remember these are not the actual famous people, they are analogous to them. Fritz Lang also exists in this comic universe and so nobody is saying he is Woden. What is being said is that Woden is like Fritz Lang, only an analogue that is more charmed by totalitarian ideals than even Lang was. And Lang was indeed attracted to totalitarianism even if he wasn’t enamoured by Hitler when he came to power. This is a story about powerful individuals that are similar but not the same as their counterparts. For the story to work Gillen needs to reference Hitler in a contemporary manner. He was a topic of much discussion in elite circles. Gillen chose this character based loosely on the man that made Metropolis which to some is a love letter to totalitarian ideals and influenced by the same people as National Socialism was, to do that.
The fact that this has caused some controversy says more about the people complaining than this story.
There are very clear cues that Lucifer is an architect and the words he uses when referring to the building are words used to describe Wright and his vision, so there seems to be a deliberate nod to him.
The words used with the death pictures may be misleading. For example one of the other Norns may be Orwell. The reason it is probably Yates is because of his quote that echoes The Second Coming, one of the most famous poems it this era. But the reference to ruling pigs equally suggests Orwell. There are three of them anyway, they could be representing an entire group of writers. We have Huxley references too from Skuld.
I really don’t understand why Hemingway would be referenced in a book set too early, but maybe Gillen just wanted him in and figured he is alive in this period. He certainly wasn’t famous at this point. He had barely begun publishing his stories. Has anyone considered he could be Kipling?
Thinking about it Kipling is directly responsible for the style of world building employed in this story. Indirect Exposition. Need to check for references now.
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[QUOTE=Anima;3442600]Some have actually said that Susanoo might be based off of a combination of Charlie Chaplin, Buster Keaton and Sessue Hayakawa.[/QUOTE]
This is entirely possible, but the portrait in the front of the book is clearly based on a famous Chaplin photograph from that era.
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January Diamond figures reiterate how successful this series is in TPB. With second place in both units and dollars.
The dollar trade market is mostly dominated by premium hard covers that will presumably sit on store shelves for a while, or are being ordered directly by collectors wanting hardbacks on their own shelves. I imagine the paperback trades are dominated by pull lists from people trade waiting.
The only other standard trades in the top ten for dollars are Legend of Korra, Descender, and Kill or be Killed.
For context Saga v8 is outside this particular top 10 but is 6 in unit sales.
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Welly well well, we finally got a glimpse of The Beginning.
Also, what was up with the ending? I think I got what was revealed but... I'm not sure I fully understand it?
From the looks of it, it looks like Minerva killed Luci? I think that was the takeaway? But why? Like why not Ananke like it originally seemed? What is the meaning? (Or have I misinterpreted the panels? I am foolish sometimes) Thoughts?
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[QUOTE=Jinjonator;3508254]Welly well well, we finally got a glimpse of The Beginning.
Also, what was up with the ending? I think I got what was revealed but... I'm not sure I fully understand it?
From the looks of it, it looks like Minerva killed Luci? I think that was the takeaway? But why? Like why not Ananke like it originally seemed? What is the meaning? (Or have I misinterpreted the panels? I am foolish sometimes) Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
Woden has worked out that there is a connection between Minerva and Ananke. He may even have jumped to the conclusion that Ananke and Minerva are one and the same recurring deity.
Minerva did act rashly here out of desperation and necessity (no pun intended). The sudden return of head lopping villainy probably made him suspicious. He was surprised that Minerva left her glasses behind, so he isn't suspicious of her when he starts to look through the footage.
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As usual the reveals here don't really reveal an awful lot. All we know is that six thousand years ago Ananke began to enact a terrible plan to renew herself and thereby gain immortality. What we don't know is why she did this. It seems from the perspective we are given that she is doing this out of selfishness but maybe she isn't. Maybe she is finding a solution to a wider problem. I doubt it is coincidental that she is the goddess of necessity.
I like that we get a 1.2.3.4. here. It suggests and underlying structure.
So Persephone is here as mother, and the old version we see had children. Is Lucy pregnant?
I wonder if Ananke has deliberately been picking the least effective people she can for the role of Persephone. By picking a fangirl of the pantheon she probably wildly underestimated Laura and fan culture. Also, in a way Lucy picked her. Did she know something? "Aren't you the oh-so special one..."
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I'm even more confused now about Woden's machine that (supposedly) doesn't do anything. We now know that the previous Woden (who also wasn't really a god but just a functionary who stored hidden treasures in a "tabernacle") constructed a machine to trap the era's zeitgeist, or so he thought, but it actually trapped something else instead. What was it that the machine trapped, and what did Ananke do with whatever it was? Is the present machine a device to trap the same thing? If so, why did Ananke tie Minerva to it?
Also, in the current issue we see the origin of (but don't yet understand) Ananke's need for four skulls. She and her sister would each get four skulls, but who is this third entity who gets the other three? Does this have anything to do with the Great Darkness, or is there yet another force at work here?
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[QUOTE=seismic-2;3532327]I'm even more confused now about Woden's machine that (supposedly) doesn't do anything. We now know that the previous Woden (who also wasn't really a god but just a functionary who stored hidden treasures in a "tabernacle") constructed a machine to trap the era's zeitgeist, or so he thought, but it actually trapped something else instead. What was it that the machine trapped, and what did Ananke do with whatever it was? Is the present machine a device to trap the same thing? If so, why did Ananke tie Minerva to it?
Also, in the current issue we see the origin of (but don't yet understand) Ananke's need for four skulls. She and her sister would each get four skulls, but who is this third entity who gets the other three? Does this have anything to do with the Great Darkness, or is there yet another force at work here?[/QUOTE]
The spirit of the times thing was a part of the premise of the previous era. Gillen was commentating upon the modernist ideal, and the way it degenerated. He was drawing parallels between the very elitist aristocratic perspective and the populist, democratic perspective. Many saw art as somehow pure and not for ‘the great unwashed’. The implication from the way the book finishes, is that they managed to exacerbate the problems and led us into the populist politics that gave rise to fascism and the Nazis. It all backfired on them. Elitism gone wrong. Or perhaps a condemnation of elitism.
As to skulls I have no idea what you mean. There is clearly a ritual needing four alive heads, I don’t see any evidence that skulls are required. When we first saw Ananke killing people we were given to believe she was doing it to somehow stay alive. Now it seems she doesn’t need to so the heads are possibly for something else.
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Well that was a new one on me. I have laughed out loud at a comic, I have shed a tear over a comic, never before have I cackled at a comic. #35 is such deliciously evil fun generally, but the Baal reveal was so great. And it kept on giving when he discarded his amulet.
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The relationship between Minerva and Ananke is what I’ve poured over since Wednesday. The pathway is so damn unclear.
Who are the Franks?
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[QUOTE=JKtheMac;2939334]I am really not sure that is true. Some division was created, and used by Ananke for her own ends, and there is a hangover from those times now. But the Underworld as a concept means different things to different cultures, and I suspect Gillen is being looser and more playful. Certainly he used the Persephone story in a playful way.
[B]I see Baal as being used to emphasise masculinity and patriarchy[/B], and Woden in his aspect as magician. Neither are acting particularly like the typical distant sky god, overseeing creation.[/QUOTE]
I have to disagree with the bolded, I think Woden is more of a representative of the patriarchy than Baal could ever be.
Can we get some examples of why you think this?
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[QUOTE=Microwave;3577188]I have to disagree with the bolded, I think Woden is more of a representative of the patriarchy than Baal could ever be.
Can we get some examples of why you think this?[/QUOTE]
Well let’s take right now, when he is suddenly the devourer of children and the fire god who was only held back by his amulet. Seems quite the macho deity to me. How much more patriarchal can you get? That is literally biblical stuff: Jeremiah 19:5
[quote]
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal
[/quote]
Consider Zeus in the devouring of his son, or the ritual set up by Prometheus to appease the gods. The fire sacrifice ritual is the very essence of patriarchy. Progeny are rivals. Fire and meat is the key to the happy relationship with Zeus the Father.
Even Christ on the cross is a sacrifice to the father to ritualise the relationship of god and man. Father forgive them...
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To be honest, I'm completely lost with this series. I'll keep on reading, but it's getting pretty confusing.
Do we know what happened to Ananke's sister? Is she Minerva somehow?