I want the MCU’s Dark Phoenix saga to be a musical now.
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I want the MCU’s Dark Phoenix saga to be a musical now.
[QUOTE=Arsenal;4069851]I want the MCU’s Dark Phoenix saga to be a musical now.[/QUOTE]
Sadie Sink for Jean Grey.
It's not unusual to be loved by anyone
It's not unusual to be designed by Dave Cockrum
But when I see you hanging about with Mastermind
It's not unusual to see me cry, I wanna die
It's not unusual to freak out at any time
But when I see you commit genocide, it's such a crime
If you should ever want to brawl with us today
It's not unusual -- it happens every day -- no matter what you say
You'll find it happens all the time
The Phoenix will never do -- what you want it to
Why can't this crazy bird be miiiiiine?
It's not unusual to just fight until you're done
It's not unusual to just find a big moon gun
But if I ever find that you've revived out of the blue
It's not unusual to find out I'm in love with you whooaaaohohohohohohohwhoaaaaaa
[QUOTE=Harpsikord;4069012]While we're on the subject of Chris Claremont --
Something that I've realized: I kind of hate the Dark Phoenix Saga. Jean Grey is my absolute favorite character and she is the star of the Dark Phoenix Saga, it's the biggest story that she's been featured at the center of, and is the one that people keep going back to when they think of Jean, but... it's just not good in it's foundation. It's effectively the story of a victim of mental abuse becoming a genocidal maniac and being stripped of all agency due to what the Phoenix is and what it makes Jean do, and the only ways that agency is regained is through the help of a man (Charles Xavier) or by killing herself, which is at least better than the original ending that had her literally stripped of her powers against her will.
"It was more important to Jean Grey to die as a human than live as a god" is an important part of her character, sure, but there were and are so many more interesting ways that the Dark Phoenix Saga could have been told that wouldn't keep coming back to haunt the character and the concept of the Phoenix over and over and over because comic book writers are so... retrograde.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/xTiQyBOIQe5cgiyUPS/giphy.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=CRaymond;4069615]DPS is a Women in Refridgerators snuff story. It’s barely about Jean. It’s about the loss of Charles’ most precious student and Cyclops’ most precious first love.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/8leaEcIxC91cs/giphy.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Snoop Dogg;4069900]It's not unusual to be loved by anyone
It's not unusual to be designed by Dave Cockrum
But when I see you hanging about with Mastermind
It's not unusual to see me cry, I wanna die
It's not unusual to freak out at any time
But when I see you commit genocide, it's such a crime
If you should ever want to brawl with us today
It's not unusual -- it happens every day -- no matter what you say
You'll find it happens all the time
The Phoenix will never do -- what you want it to
Why can't this crazy bird be miiiiiine?
It's not unusual to just fight until you're done
It's not unusual to just find a big moon gun
But if I ever find that you've revived out of the blue
It's not unusual to find out I'm in love with you whooaaaohohohohohohohwhoaaaaaa[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/GFBME4lzPVwxW/giphy.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=CRaymond;4069615]DPS is a Women in Refridgerators snuff story. It’s barely about Jean. It’s about the loss of Charles’ most precious student and Cyclops’ most precious first love.[/QUOTE]
In a vacuum, DPS could have been a great story. But in a genre where people like the Silver Surfer, Dr. Strange, Superman, Thor, etc. can have ridiculous levels of power and not go power-mad or 'become unwritable' because of it, that Jean (and Wanda) *can't* handle crazy amounts of power without going off the deep end looks kind of tacky. Once is a story. But when it kept happening whenever a female character got 'too powerful' and didn't 'mind her place', it starts to look like a pattern.
Had it been a story about *Charles* being corrupted by his 'father knows best' attitude and all-too-convenient 'do as I say, not as I do' power (similar to the moral dilemna in the later Squadron Supreme mini, and hinted at multiple times in DPS, when Xavier is saying that Scott shouldn't lead the X-Men because he can't control Wolverine with demerits, or sneak attacks Jean and starts up the fight again just after Scott has talked her down!), and the X-Men needing to grow beyond his leadership (and how 'Xavier's dream' was bigger than Xavier himself, and, at that point, perhaps he was even holding it back...), it could have been a powerful story about cults of personality over the messenger drowning out the message.
Shatterstar shouldn't have been turned gay. And Liefeld is a damn good artist.
[QUOTE=shooshoomanjoe;4070222]And Liefeld is a damn good artist.[/QUOTE]
Heresy of the highest order!
[QUOTE=shooshoomanjoe;4070222]Shatterstar shouldn't have been turned gay.[/QUOTE]
Well, he didn't.
[QUOTE=Sutekh;4070209]In a vacuum, DPS could have been a great story.[/QUOTE]
In a vacuum, it IS a good story. It’s got pretty classic romantic tragedy elements, which all the best musicals have: a love triangle, mistaken identity, divisive race/class paradigm, dance/fight scenes, a scene chewing diva, and a heartbreaking finale.
In the context of superhero comics, it’s bad form, and an [I]ancestor[/I] to a big problem in the industry. Hindsight. I certainly don’t blame Claremont from writing its themes in the era it was written.
Unpopular opinion: the most interesting X-Students (and not even my favorites) are the ones being used in Uncanny X-Men: Disassembled - Armor, Anole, Rockslide, Glob Herman, Pixie, and Oya. I think its one of the better decisions the trio of writers have made (even though I like Bling! and Mercury the most).
[QUOTE=shooshoomanjoe;4070222]Shatterstar shouldn't have been turned gay. And Liefeld is a damn good artist.[/QUOTE]
I dont mind that for Shatterstar but I would say Rictor shouldnt have been turned gay. It would have been better had he been bi
[QUOTE=Sutekh;4070209]In a vacuum, DPS could have been a great story. But in a genre where people like the Silver Surfer, Dr. Strange, Superman, Thor, etc. can have ridiculous levels of power and not go power-mad or 'become unwritable' because of it, that Jean (and Wanda) *can't* handle crazy amounts of power without going off the deep end looks kind of tacky. Once is a story. But when it kept happening whenever a female character got 'too powerful' and didn't 'mind her place', it starts to look like a pattern.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, Silver Surfer, Dr. Strange, Superman and Thor don't recreate the entire universe from memory like Jean did in the M'Kraan crystal in the preceding Phoenix Saga. After that she nerfed herself to basically their level until she lost her shit after frying Mastermind, but her power level is indeed an octave or two above theirs(even challenging the Cosmic constructs/Galactus/etc). She's even greater than Dr. Manhattan in the original Watchman story, and he too left the earth. Jean's sacrifice at the end of DPS was a great story, even with the various editorial influences that shaped it. Furthermore, Claremont approached a similar theme with Storm not too long after DPS in RogueStorm, and she was able to resist the temptation of absolute power and scale back down on her own, so it's not like he was out to 'get the women'. If anything, his work is remarkable for showing capable women in a time where most were still treated as damsels in distress.
Basically any super-powerful character based primarily on Earth and with other humans will have to be nerfed to some extent to allow for storytelling to unfold in a human level. That goes for SS, Dr. Strange, Thor, and Superman as well, who have all been nerfed from time to time(and they are often partitioned to deep space/Asgard/other dimensions with similarly powered foes/supporting cast). Certainly there is room for MORE female and POC characters at the elite power level, but at the end of the day, comics are still unfortunately a white-male dominated power fantasy medium. Furthermore, the dark Xavier story was also examined in the early Claremont run just after Jean initially turned Phoenix, if only a bit. Though there were of course many later stories that went deeper along those lines(Brood Xavier and the NM, the Microverse x-over, Onslaught, and of course many stories in the modern era).
[QUOTE=Spinster Sinister;4070401]Unpopular opinion: the most interesting X-Students (and not even my favorites) are the ones being used in Uncanny X-Men: Disassembled - Armor, Anole, Rockslide, Glob Herman, Pixie, and Oya. I think its one of the better decisions the trio of writers have made (even though I like Bling! and Mercury the most).[/QUOTE]
These plus Cipher,Bling!,Muse, Ink, Prodigy should hold the keys to the car at this point.[ATTACH=CONFIG]74748[/ATTACH]
Xavier is just the worst human being.
[QUOTE=ohsnapulon5000;4070937]These plus Cipher,Bling!,Muse, Ink, Prodigy should hold the keys to the car at this point.[ATTACH=CONFIG]74748[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
........Ink?