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[QUOTE=Ascended;2509368]Sharing villains doesn't bother me.
I mean, what was the Super-line doing with Henshaw? Nothing. By the time Sinestro Corps War rolled around Henshaw hadn't shown up in the Super-books for years. So what did Superman lose? Nothing he wasn't using. And Henshaw got some quality character development while he was hanging out in space.
And not too awfully long later (as comics measure time), Henshaw returned to bother Superman during the Reign of Doomsday story that ended the post-Crisis era.
Now, if another franchise wants to steal a villain who is actively being used? That's a different thing. But a villain who is sitting on the shelf collecting dust? No one loses anything from taking that toy down and letting someone else play with it for a little while, as long as they give it back when they're done.[/QUOTE]
I agree that they were doing nothing with Henshaw (I seem to recall that before the appearance you mentioned, the last thing they did with him before turning him into a GL villain was his appearance in "Ending Battle"), and I see your point. But that's kinda the issue, no? They should start using him as a Superman villain instead of lending him to other characters.
EDIT: another point I'll add to my original post: I hate that writers have made Superman so dependent on sunlight. I get the whole "sun god" angle, but come on. He comes form an exceedingly advanced civilization, which no doubt used genetic engineering eons ago to make themselves physically perfect (or close to it).
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[QUOTE=Osiris-Rex;2510034]But all those things you list are what you don't like about the character. It does nothing to address why other people like Kara Zor-El. Which was the original question "[I]i never quite understood the appeal of Kara-Zor-EL[/I]"
I listed why I think people like Kara Zor-El. Instead of why you don't like her, why do you think other people do like her?[/QUOTE]
To me Kara Zor-El is the Supergirl that existed for over 25 years and died in the CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. So I was talking about the appeal of Kara Zor-El for me. Not tryin' to harsh your buzz, man, just relating my own vibe on the girl.
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[QUOTE=666MasterOfPuppets;2510105]Like I said elsewhere, it all comes down to him being an alien from one (if not the) most advanced civilizations in the universe. His DNA should be extremely complex, to the point that no man can even come close to decoding it. I see Kon as an indirect way of making Kal not as alien (physiologically) as I want him to be.[/QUOTE]
That's the thing,Kon is exactly the way he is,because they couldn't decipher supermans DNA.
In my head canon BOTH young justice TV show Superboy and the original kon-el from the 90's are what you get when you can't decipher supermans DNA.
On the YJ show if you use kryptonian DNA you get a bizzaro,so they used human DNA and got a weaker,limited, golden age leveled clone
The original Kon didn't have any DNA from superman at all.they found the aura and used it to create a TK field that could mimic kryptonian powers.
Both kept superman as a unique and unreadable alien,and created something different than what he is and way has come before.
Both should be how he was created not just one,both origins should be merged into one complete origin,that includes both DNA and aura,to give you the full origin.
This is what was said "could" have been done from the back of the reign of the Supermen trade
[URL=http://s617.photobucket.com/user/stephens2177/media/Mobile%20Uploads/rofsupes-325_zpso3eaxtfq.jpg.html][IMG]http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/stephens2177/Mobile%20Uploads/rofsupes-325_zpso3eaxtfq.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Just the part that I'm talking about
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They could have went the multiple stage cloning process back then,and I think if DC wants to get a new Kon right for Rebirth they need to go that route.
Just like Superman needs to be whole,Kon needs to be whole also,and I just wrote how to do it
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[QUOTE=stephens2177;2510398]That's the thing,Kon is exactly the way he is,because they couldn't decipher supermans DNA.
In my head canon BOTH young justice TV show Superboy and the original kon-el from the 90's are what you get when you can't decipher supermans DNA.
On the YJ show if you use kryptonian DNA you get a bizzaro,so they used human DNA and got a weaker,limited, golden age leveled clone
The original Kon didn't have any DNA from superman at all.they found the aura and used it to create a TK field that could mimic kryptonian powers.
Both kept superman as a unique and unreadable alien,and created something different than what he is and way has come before.
Both should be how he was created not just one,both origins should be merged into one complete origin,that includes both DNA and aura,to give you the full origin.
This is what was said "could" have been done from the back of the reign of the Supermen trade
[URL=http://s617.photobucket.com/user/stephens2177/media/Mobile%20Uploads/rofsupes-325_zpso3eaxtfq.jpg.html][IMG]http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/stephens2177/Mobile%20Uploads/rofsupes-325_zpso3eaxtfq.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Just the part that I'm talking about
[URL=http://s617.photobucket.com/user/stephens2177/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160727_220330_zpslkpym9xs.jpg.html][IMG]http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/stephens2177/Mobile%20Uploads/20160727_220330_zpslkpym9xs.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
They could have went the multiple stage cloning process back then,and I think if DC wants to get a new Kon right for Rebirth they need to go that route.
Just like Superman needs to be whole,Kon needs to be whole also,and I just wrote how to do it[/QUOTE]
I was seeing some strong nostalgia for 90's Kon a while back. DC should just forget about the 2000's/N52 for Kon and cash in on that nostalgia.
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[QUOTE=666MasterOfPuppets;2510122][B]another point I'll add to my original post: I hate that writers have made Superman so dependent on sunlight. I get the whole "sun god" angle, but come on. He comes form an exceedingly advanced civilization, which no doubt used genetic engineering eons ago to make themselves physically perfect (or close to it).[/B][/QUOTE]
You bring up a good point there, some of Superman's powers should come from his innate advanced biology. rather than the fact he's metabolising sunlight.
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[QUOTE=GizmotheStark89;2508889]This thread is massive and I only got about 10 pages in before wanted to make a reply of my own.
I don't have any controversial opinions because my history reading comics is fairly short compared to most people here...and I don't read them in any organized way. I don't think there is any definitive version of Superman (or any comic character) within a reasonable context.
I started reading comics in the mid 2000s because Batman Begins inspired me too. I never bought single issues, only trades. Rebirth marks the first time I'm following books week to week, issue to issue.
But when I first started picking up comics, I started from the beginning. Golden Age and Silver age stuff was hard for me to enjoy because of how "simple" the writing was. There were a few exceptions. I thought Golden Age Batman was pretty cool for fast paced, moody crime thrillers. I loved Stan Lee Spider-Man even though his purple prose could get irksome, but for the most part these two era's of comics felt too one-note and samey to me. I couldn't get into to Superman for the longest time because of the oft mentioned over-the-top and boring characterization of him for the first leg of his publication history. So I guess disliking Golden and Silver Age Supes and comics in general is a controversial opinion (and no it doesn't mean I need everything to be dark and edgy. I just like modern writing more).
I read some people have a problem with Byrne Supes and I never knew his work was so divisive among fans. His stuff was the first stuff to make me say "I get it now!" I had loved Richard Donner's Superman and it took Byrne's work to make me see that Superman could be fun and interesting in his comic book form.
With that said, because my reading habits for comics is basically "read what sounds good" I have no set conditions I want a creative team to adhere to. I just want fun and entertaining superhero stories. So when I hear of some new idea to shake up the status quo I don't have knee-jerk reactions like more entrenched fans do. As long as the characters fall in line with the core of what they've always been; shake-ups to continuity or the status quo don't bother me. Give Superman a son, put him in a t-shirt and jeans, take away his trunks, bring back Kryptonians, making him a little more alien or a little more human...I don't care. Just make it a good story. These characters have been around for going on a CENTURY now. Its a miracle people can even come up with newish scenario's to put them in. That's why I couldn't care less about things like maybe making Clark a little more rash or impulsive or making his suit more armor-like or giving him long hair. As long as he's from Krypton and wants to do the right thing at all costs and try to be the best man he can be...little cosmetic changes or mild shake-ups to lore don't bother me and fans getting pissed off about them just comes off as petty to me. No offense.[/QUOTE]
Welcome to around these parts!
I pretty much fall into the same camp. Especially because frankly, Silver age Superman seems a lot stronger in memory than in presence. I spend a lot of time reading older comics and often Silver age Superman is like first gear compared the Stan Lee Spider-Man imo. The writers seemed really committed to seeing the readers as a demographic of children.
But I like all of Superman ultimately. There aren't many comics I've seen that I can say I wish I didn't read.
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[QUOTE=The World;2510506]I was seeing some strong nostalgia for 90's Kon a while back. DC should just forget about the 2000's/N52 for Kon and cash in on that nostalgia.[/QUOTE]
Ya see DC is NOT that smart of a company,I'm pretty sure we all can count atleast 10 dumb things they have done or won't do on our hands,just in the past 5 to 10 years,so leaving Kon in limbo,or recreating him into a emotionless weapon,and ignoring everything that makes him great.
Besides the nostalgia effect with the original Kon,the YJ version is a hit,and every day someone else can see the show and grow to like him.
I want them smashed.together into one,that is where the $ is,that's where the best origin,personality,and powerset is,and the best chance of DC to bring back the shine the character always had,but has lost in the last 5 years(not saying there isn't a few things I like about the new 52 kon-tactile senses,TK hyper acceleration,and conscious controlled).
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I think the whole "Superman is lonely because he's the last son of Krypton" thing is a little overrated.
I've never really felt like Clark's genuine loneliness and "otherness" comes from him being the last of his kind. I always thought it was because Clark is the ONLY one of his kind: a Kryptonian completely raised on Earth. He's obviously very different from the Earthlings around him, but he'd also be inherently different from any Kryptonians he meets. I like the idea that a young Clark Kent somewhat yearns to see Krypton because he assumes it will make everything just "click" for him. The story gains new and fascinating dimension if Clark experiences a slice of Krypton (via a person, place or deceive) and he realizes "holy crap, I'm basically an alien there too."
Like everyone's always on the hunt to make Superman seem more "special" even among his fellow Kryptonians by way of physical augmentation or "chosen one" syndrome. But in reality, the answer has been encoded deep down in the character's core since the jump: he's an alien to both worlds in some way or another. Years and years of Earthly conditioning don't just go away because you meet a person with the same S on their chest as you or if you go to a place that has a dozen of them.
I find this concept to be infinitely relatable to the real world, and it hearkens back to his immigrant roots, but it updates it for 2017. I'm a child of immigrants, and I know the strange limbo one can find themselves in when they are split between two cultures. Going back to my mom's home country is like going back to Kandor. It's nice for a second because all of the physical trapping are there. The people enjoy the same foods that my mom cooks sometimes, they listen to the same music that my mom plays, and the sound of my mother's native langue fills the air. The feeling of physical connection is strong.....but then I stay there for more than a week. Then the onset of my American born sensibilities kick in. I understand my mom's culture's sensibilities, but I don't quite "get" them to the point where it's second nature, and because of my specific upbringing I don't think I ever really will (at least not to the level of a native).
Flip that over, and when I'm home in America (yes it's my home the same way Earth is Clark's) I have enough of my mother's culture in me to make me feel like an outsider from time to time.
That's why I think the idea of Clark NEEDING to be the only Kryptonian was never needed in comics. People focus so much on the physical similarities Clark would share with his Kryptonian brothers and sisters, but they forget that there would be obvious and unavoidable mental differences due to Clark's unique upbringing. It's a fascinating contrast really: on Earth Clark is physically different, but on Krypton he is mentally different. He belongs to both and neither at the same time.
That's pretty freakin lonely to me. It's like the idea of being in a room full of your friends and family who love you, yet you still feel like there's this thin glass separating you from all of them. It's honestly tragic.
So I'm a REALLY big advocate for concepts like the shrunken city of Kandor (and a good version of the New Krypton story line), cousin Kara, Zod/Phantoms, Bizarro, and Kon-El. None of the characters listed here could actually alleviate his alienation past "hey, you can see through walls too? Cool!" Kara probably winces a little as Clark stutters and butchers his way through the Kryptonian langue. Zod probably looks at Clark the same way Clayton looks at Tarzan. To him Clark is physically a Kryptonian, but he's "gone native." Kon-El is a clone that's grown up on the idealistic concept of "The Superman" and knows zero about Clark Kent the American alien, and his journey to create that concept.
Even among his family (Lois and Jon), I imagine Clark has some introspection away from them (much the same way we saw in Superman: Secret Identity). That doesn't mean Clark's antisocial or a shut in. It's probably a bit of the opposite, honestly. I imagine getting to sit down, speak with, learn from, and connect with different and fascinating people was a big driving force in him becoming a reporter. The ablity to find the common emotional tethers that connect us all and transcend the physical and even cultural. Clark's a truly fascinating person on his own, and he doesn't need to be the very last Kryptonian to prove that, imo.
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Superman is a lot like Tarzan in the sense that he despite been raised by apes isn't really an ape but due to being raised by apes isn't fully a british nobleman. He's neither and both at the same time. Tarzan as originally conceived can survive in the depths of the jungle as well as in a great modern metropolis. He can wear a tuxedo but the wild man is always beneath the surface waiting to emerge. Superman raised by humans isn't human yet not culturally Kryptonian. Yeah he's got their knowledge and technology but he will never be an actual Kryptonian because he didn't grew up as one. He'd always be a bit more emotional than most Kryptonians and a lot more selfless and caring than most humans. Do I make any sense? lol
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It's not really about Superman being lonely, but he is supposed to be the Last Son of Krypton. That's the selling point of the character. I can understand why people start scratching their heads when all these other Kryptonians show up. And it kind of makes Jor-El look stupid. Why was he in such a freaking hurry to put his kid in an untested rocket ship and launch him through light years of space, when there were apparently a lot of other opitions on the table? And for that matter why did Jor-El and Lara choose to die and not save themselves?
It undermines the elegant simplicity of the Superman story to clutter it with all these loopholes.
I never understood why Jack Kirby--having created KAMANDI, THE LAST BOY ON EARTH--then chose to introduce other humanoid survivors After Disaster. There were loopholes there, too--these survivors weren't exactly the same as Kamandi. So he was technically the Last BOY on Earth. But it made it sound like the title was being vetted by corporate contract lawyers. I loved KAMANDI, but given Jack was in charge of the title, I never understood why he did that. Keep it simple King Kirby--Kamandi is the Last Boy on Earth!
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[QUOTE=Francisco;2511198]Superman is a lot like Tarzan in the sense that he despite been raised by apes isn't really an ape but due to being raised by apes isn't fully a british nobleman. He's neither and both at the same time. Tarzan as originally conceived can survive in the depths of the jungle as well as in a great modern metropolis. He can wear a tuxedo but the wild man is always beneath the surface waiting to emerge. Superman raised by humans isn't human yet not culturally Kryptonian. Yeah he's got their knowledge and technology but he will never be an actual Kryptonian because he didn't grew up as one. He'd always be a bit more emotional than most Kryptonians and a lot more selfless and caring than most humans. Do I make any sense? lol[/QUOTE]
Sure you make sense, to me. It's why I had the Tarzan analogy in my post in the first place ;)
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[QUOTE]Like everyone's always on the hunt to make Superman seem more "special" even among his fellow Kryptonians by way of physical augmentation or "chosen one" syndrome. But in reality, the answer has been encoded deep down in the character's core since the jump: he's an alien to both worlds in some way or another. Years and years of Earthly conditioning don't just go away because you meet a person with the same S on their chest as you or if you go to a place that has a dozen of them.[/QUOTE]
This is the reason of why i was interested in the New Krypton storyline and even enjoyed some parts of the "World of New Krypton" mini, even when it wasn't all that great.
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[QUOTE=TheCape;2511238]This is the reason of why i was interested in the New Krypton storyline and even enjoyed some parts of the "World of New Krypton" mini, even when it wasn't all that great.[/QUOTE]
I'm right there with you! That story not being written to the level of an instant classic is one of the greatest failings at DC and the Superman house. It's unforgivable once you really sit down and unpack what could've been.
I wanted to really sit and breath with that story for a bit, and unpack all of the cultural and personal (for Clark) story telling possibilities. I mean, it was an absolutely inspired idea to have Clark make a pilgrimage to the other side of the sun to New Krypton. The cultural clash should've been the crux of the story.
We could've gone with the idea of a "Cold War" type scenario with both sides just looking for a reason to blow one another up. Granted, the embers of that were there, but it just turned into a big dumb event at the end. The idea of the Kryptonian "sleeper agents" on Earth was inspired too, but executed with the grace of a drunken bull. That was more of the "Cold War" parallels at play. Hell, the comic Invincible does a better job with this particular idea. Members of Nolan's race were hiding out on Earth to strengthen their numbers by interbreeding. It becomes fascinating when some of them stop looking at it as a military mission/"resupplying" and they see what Nolan saw in Earth.
I would've loved to see Kryptonian's having "Communist" meeting in secret (it would have somewhere cool like under water or something) and some of them wanting to abandon their mission because of the life they are creating. It's more of the immigrant story at play, but it's another side of it. So much to work with here.
That's not even touching on the reservations Clark likely has about the Kryptonian culture due to his Earthling upbringing. There's SOOOOO much story to play with, and SOOO many real world parallels to make.
DC shouldn't have played any got damn games with this arc, man!!
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[QUOTE=Superlad93;2511233]Sure you make sense, to me. It's why I had the Tarzan analogy in my post in the first place ;)[/QUOTE]
lol I knew I've gotten the idea from somewhere
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[QUOTE=666MasterOfPuppets;2510122]I agree that they were doing nothing with Henshaw (I seem to recall that before the appearance you mentioned, the last thing they did with him before turning him into a GL villain was his appearance in "Ending Battle"), and I see your point. But that's kinda the issue, no? They should start using him as a Superman villain instead of lending him to other characters.[/QUOTE]
Yes, they absolutely should use Henshaw more. But Im actually of two minds on this.
First, they did use Henshaw a lot during the back half of the 90's, but you could tell that they didn't really know what to do with him. After everything he did with Coast City I think the creators were struggling to find a new direction for him, especially one that felt viable (how do you top killing seven million people while wearing Superman's face?). So they did put effort in, and it ultimately didn't work out. I have no problem with Henshaw being put on the shelf until someone came along with a good idea.
But the Super-titles have a bad habit of focusing on the same handful of villains. Lex, Metallo, Zod. And Parasite and Bizarro seem to switch out every other cycle or so. If its a big story it'll either be Darkseid or Brainiac. Everyone else only show up every couple years. And you see a chunk of villains who never show up for an encore, like Imperiex, the Time Shapers (or whatever the things behind Cir-El were called), and Dominus (was that his name? Been a long couple days and Im having trouble brain-ing). So I totally agree with the idea that the writers and editors need to avoid that rut and spread the love among Clark's rogues gallery.
[QUOTE]EDIT: another point I'll add to my original post: I hate that writers have made Superman so dependent on sunlight. I get the whole "sun god" angle, but come on. He comes form an exceedingly advanced civilization, which no doubt used genetic engineering eons ago to make themselves physically perfect (or close to it).[/QUOTE]
In my own mind, Clark's naturally at a Golden-Age type level. He can throw trucks and leap tall buildings and see through walls even if you de-power him. He's never going to be baseline human, and actually experiencing what that's like would be, from Clark's perspective, like being blind, deaf, and numb. His intellect should be naturally around the same level as our greatest minds. You add in solar energy and you get the guy who can fly through black holes and build reality-warping miracle machines from memory. And regardless of how powerful he is, he's still the god damn Superman; the best there is.
I dont get why so many people fixate on de-powering Superman when characters like the Lanterns, Flash, and Wonder Woman (to name just a few) are nearly as powerful but no one struggles with them at full power. It's weird.