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[QUOTE=BrianWilly;2529284](And it's not just Azzarello's stuff either. It's also what came before with JMS's self-important half-baked reboot, along with what came after with the Finches' insanity.)[/QUOTE]
Arrrgh! Once again: JMS's run was NOT a reboot. The story ended with everything being put back exactly as it was! The only changes that were sticking was the new costume and Diana's memories of the Odyssey story. That's it!
Anyway? Great issue! Loved that Diana's origin actually feels like her origin again.
Yeah, I agree that Ares went down far too easily, but I'm going to chalk that up to "She had the gods backing her up."
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It seems to me Ares suffered the same fate as his fellow gods. All of them appear as animals avatars except the War God. Now he has also been reduced to a similar state, making me thing there a lot more to Veronica Cale's dogs than meets the eye. You can actually see "Fear" and "Terror" emerging from under his cloak. So Ares has been kind of discorporated, split off into separate components.
[QUOTE=Vanguard-01;2529306]
Yeah, I agree that Ares went down far too easily, but I'm going to chalk that up to "She had the gods backing her up."[/QUOTE]
I won't say this issue is perfect by a long shot. Even compared to some of Rucka's other writing it seems lite. The fight with Ares felt entirely too brief - Nicola does amazing art but I didn't appreciate her having to carry that whole confrontation in six panels.
Ironically though I know I have said I had decompression, this issue really needed it. The battle with Ares should probably have been the climax of the issue, and then the next one Diana dealing with the gas plot. As it is it feels incredibly rushed.
But of course, there WAS this :)
[IMG]http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo37/brettc1_photos/Wonder%20Woman%2014%20-%20Page%2020_zpswtzr3yzm.jpg[/IMG]
[SIZE=6]OH YEAH![/SIZE]
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[QUOTE=Vanguard-01;2529306]Arrrgh! Once again: JMS's run was NOT a reboot. The story ended with everything being put back exactly as it was! The only changes that were sticking was the new costume and Diana's memories of the Odyssey story. That's it!
Anyway? Great issue! Loved that Diana's origin actually feels like her origin again.
Yeah, I agree that Ares went down far too easily, but I'm going to chalk that up to "She had the gods backing her up."[/QUOTE]
Yep. I think Odyssey was intending to alter things more than they actually did, bear in mind. But even then not a full reboot. I think they were aiming for a little something like what's going to happen with Superman in Superman Reborn. It just didn't pan out. But either way it wasn't going to be a reboot. It was going to be an epic designed to eventually set things right again, but the totality of that would have been tweaked some. Like a mini Zero-Hour.
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The problem is that even if Odyssey wasn't intended to be permanent -- and you certainly wouldn't know that from the way JMS bragged about his ideas and innovations -- all it did was add more confusion and complications to WW's status quo at a time when she most needed clarity and cohesion. I don't even dislike the actual story so much -- Phil Hester managed to write some really cool things after JMS [i]abandoned it after four issues lmfao[/i] -- but it couldn't possibly have come at a worse time, if indeed if ever even [i]needed[/i] to come at all.
It's honestly no wonder that folks like Rucka, de Liz, Morrison, and Thompson have all been tripping over each other to try to reestablish the iconic island origin in everyone's minds, with the iconic supporting cast and iconic rogues' galleries, and that we've gotten, like, four or five iterations of this origin story in the last year or so. The fact is that we've been stuck in various alternate universe Elseworlds versions of Diana's story ever since 2010 -- maybe even before that -- and these writers have been scrambling to course correct a ship that can't sail. Even Geoff Johns, bless his macabre little heart :p, tried his best to fill WW's canon with recognizable, workable elements like Steve, Etta, and Barbara while Azzarello was busy having Orion slap her ass every other issue.
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[QUOTE=Joao;2528926]Oh, it has been 30 years since [I]Gods and Mortals[/I] and it didn't age well like [I]Batman: Year One[/I]. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to go back there because it's dated: I don't do it as much as I'd like for the same reason. It was about time we got a retelling. The effect may not be clear right now among so many other versions of the same story, but this will certainly help DC establish that as her definitive origin in the long run.[/QUOTE]
And you don't think this will be dated soon enough?
The problem here is that you compare a stand-alone Batman story, with an WW origins story that's part of a bigger tale. If you wanted a definitive origns then Earth One is still a better bet because it isn't connected to anything, so we dont need to go look for other books to actually get the complete picture.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;2529175]And neither do the Elseworld origin stories that WW has been getting lately.
What do you mean "his 1940s adventures, not his real origins"? What are the "real" origins? Because we got the flashbacks of Krypton exploding, the Kents finding him, early childhood moments, his first arrival in Metropolis, and his first encounters with his supporting cast and villains. Sounds like an origin tale to me. Especially as it was part of a line wide reboot, so Morrison doing what Morrison does is incidental. If he didn't do it, someone else would have.
GL: Secret Origin, well before Flashpoint, that retconned Atrocitus into Hal's origin and set up Blackest Night. A common complaint when that came out was that it replaced Emerald Dawn. And both are still available, just like this and Gods and Mortals will be available at the same time.
Shazam not being a League founder doesn't have much to do with anything (I never said he was?), he still got a new origin when they could have just re-printed his post-Crisis origin and told people to go read that for the basics.[/QUOTE]
So you are just irritated it isn't repeated enough?
What I mean is that Morrisons initial story was like the very oldest Superman stories where he was more of a social justice warrior who'd go rough up dastardly CEO's who were stepping on the little guy. And no I wasn't an origins story because, as you say, everything came in flashbacks whenever Clark was reminded of something... like the Kents when he was selling the farm. The most complete of these was the story of Krypto. As such, the origins was a puzzle we had to put together gradually whenever a new piece was given to us while something else was happening.
As for it being Morrison... no, others wouldn't have done it unless DC told them to... Morrison however does what he does best when people don't try to steer him, and DC knows this and is willing to respect it as one of the few cases.
Ok, so you are reaching back before Flashpoint and thus rendering your argument rather invalid when the book you point to predates the big reboot by several years. Stay with Flashpoint and onwards please.
No, you mention Shazam despite me stating specifically that the 'League Founders' save for Cyborg did not get their origins retold, because of the 5 year shift so DC had an excuse to mostly skip these things, that was part of their reasoning as well if I remember correctly. And I would disagree with people being able to go back to his old origins... because unlike Rucka's retelling of Diana's origins, stuff was actually changed in Shazams.
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[QUOTE=brettc1;2529937]It seems to me Ares suffered the same fate as his fellow gods. All of them appear as animals avatars except the War God. Now he has also been reduced to a similar state, making me thing there a lot more to Veronica Cale's dogs than meets the eye. You can actually see "Fear" and "Terror" emerging from under his cloak. So Ares has been kind of discorporated, split off into separate components.
I won't say this issue is perfect by a long shot. Even compared to some of Rucka's other writing it seems lite. The fight with Ares felt entirely too brief - Nicola does amazing art but I didn't appreciate her having to carry that whole confrontation in six panels.
Ironically though I know I have said I had decompression, this issue really needed it. The battle with Ares should probably have been the climax of the issue, and then the next one Diana dealing with the gas plot. As it is it feels incredibly rushed.
But of course, there WAS this :)
[IMG]http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo37/brettc1_photos/Wonder%20Woman%2014%20-%20Page%2020_zpswtzr3yzm.jpg[/IMG]
[SIZE=6]OH YEAH![/SIZE][/QUOTE]
It was funny see Diana flying all over the world and a shirtless steve by her side
I wonder if there is some law the Gods can't show up as theirselves on the world, but only as avatars
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[QUOTE=Outside_85;2530145]And you don't think this will be dated soon enough?
The problem here is that you compare a stand-alone Batman story, with an WW origins story that's part of a bigger tale. If you wanted a definitive origns then Earth One is still a better bet because it isn't connected to anything, so we dont need to go look for other books to actually get the complete picture.
[/QUOTE]
I don't think that's the problem. Both [I]Gods and Mortals[/I] and [I]Wonder Woman: Year One[/I] show Diana's first adventure in the world and are part of a bigger story. They are complete story arcs and great reads by themselves. I say it's dated based on art and narration style, that feel old (I'd say older than it is) at first sight. Not the story per se.
Some things get old faster than others. No matter which one will be the case, [I]Wonder Woman: Year One[/I] has a big value for adapting that classic story into a contemporary language that can survive for decades to come. That's good enough, isn't it?
[QUOTE=brettc1;2529937]It seems to me Ares suffered the same fate as his fellow gods. All of them appear as animals avatars except the War God. Now he has also been reduced to a similar state, making me thing there a lot more to Veronica Cale's dogs than meets the eye. You can actually see "Fear" and "Terror" emerging from under his cloak. So Ares has been kind of discorporated, split off into separate components.[/QUOTE]
Wow, you have great eyes!!! So could Ares be the patron of God watch somehow? That opens a lot of possibilities.
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[QUOTE=Joao;2530234]I don't think that's the problem. Both [I]Gods and Mortals[/I] and [I]Wonder Woman: Year One[/I] show Diana's first adventure in the world and are part of a bigger story. They are complete story arcs and great reads by themselves. I say it's dated based on art and narration style, that feel old (I'd say older than it is) at first sight. Not the story per se.
Some things get old faster than others. No matter which one will be the case, [I]Wonder Woman: Year One[/I] has a big value for adapting that classic story into a contemporary language that can survive for decades to come. That's good enough, isn't it?[/QUOTE]
Well... thats kinda boiled it down to personal opinion then whenever the story is dated or not.
Will depend on how long it lasts before someone comes along and changes it.
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1 Attachment(s)
I was re-reading some stuff and I foun this in issue #6:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]43784[/ATTACH]
So probably all the amazons are, indeed, daughters of Ares.
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I think he was being patronizing, literally.
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You know when your super health-conscious sister invites you over for the dinner and all the food is really bland, mine's like "I make beef stroganov with chicken breasts and natural yogurt, you won't even tell the difference I swear". It tasted like paper paste. Rebirth is the low-fun, politically-conscious healthy-alternative of Comics. Everything that tastes nice is bad - bad like Hippolyta having an affair, Wonder Woman calling Strife a b*tch…things like that impart loads of flavor
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I agree with your sentiment that Rebirth is batting down the middle and banking on nostalgia.
I think DC needs to get MORE political.
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[QUOTE=Outside_85;2530145]So you are just irritated it isn't repeated enough?
What I mean is that Morrisons initial story was like the very oldest Superman stories where he was more of a social justice warrior who'd go rough up dastardly CEO's who were stepping on the little guy. And no I wasn't an origins story because, as you say, everything came in flashbacks whenever Clark was reminded of something... like the Kents when he was selling the farm. The most complete of these was the story of Krypto. As such, the origins was a puzzle we had to put together gradually whenever a new piece was given to us while something else was happening.
As for it being Morrison... no, others wouldn't have done it unless DC told them to... Morrison however does what he does best when people don't try to steer him, and DC knows this and is willing to respect it as one of the few cases.
Ok, so you are reaching back before Flashpoint and thus rendering your argument rather invalid when the book you point to predates the big reboot by several years. Stay with Flashpoint and onwards please.
No, you mention Shazam despite me stating specifically that the 'League Founders' save for Cyborg did not get their origins retold, because of the 5 year shift so DC had an excuse to mostly skip these things, that was part of their reasoning as well if I remember correctly. And I would disagree with people being able to go back to his old origins... because unlike Rucka's retelling of Diana's origins, stuff was actually changed in Shazams.[/QUOTE]
No, I meant that this deluge of Elseword origin stories we are getting for WW don't impact the main Canon, just like the Earth One books for the other two. So we can't point to them and be all "just use that". You said those stories don't count. Well, neither do these WW ones in relation to the main Canon.
So it's a bunch of flashback stories...in the middle of a story based during Clark's early years. When the prior Canon was ditched. Still a reset of his origins and early years. And yes, Morrison did what he wanted but we were still getting an origin story regardless. He just got to be in charge.
Why can't I go before Flashpoint? We are discussing soft reboots and origin retelling for characters who got them and needed their crap sorted out even less than WW. This isn't a trend that statted with Flashpoint.
I would agree with you of Year One was exactly the same as Perez's status quo. But a lot of details were changed because things in the present needed them to be.
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I'll tell you what though: if we hadn't gotten Rucka to come back to clean up with the Year One stuff, I would've had no problems at all accepting...say, Renae de Liz's LoWW as the bona fide mainline canon going forward. ;)
Of course, it's silly to take stories like LoWW and Earth One that were specifically intended to be separate from the main continuity and suddenly say "Hey, let's just make it the main continuity now" 'cuz of all the complications it would cause (and, again, the whole point being to [i]reduce[/i] those complications)...but in the case of LoWW, I wouldn't have minded making an exception!
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[QUOTE=Joao;2530257]I was re-reading some stuff and I foun this in issue #6:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]43784[/ATTACH]
So probably all the amazons are, indeed, daughters of Ares.[/QUOTE]
Only the daughters of Otrera. She was High Queen of the Amazons; the daughter of Eurus (the east wind-Inherited flight?), consort of Ares and mother of Hippolyta, Antiope, Melanippe, and Penthesilea.
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[QUOTE=CRaymond;2530521]I agree with your sentiment that Rebirth is batting down the middle and banking on nostalgia.
I think DC needs to get MORE political.[/QUOTE]
I fail to see how this book isn't political.
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[QUOTE=username_;2530483]You know when your super health-conscious sister invites you over for the dinner and all the food is really bland, mine's like "I make beef stroganov with chicken breasts and natural yogurt, you won't even tell the difference I swear". It tasted like paper paste. Rebirth is the low-fun, politically-conscious healthy-alternative of Comics. Everything that tastes nice is bad - bad like Hippolyta having an affair, [B]Wonder Woman calling Strife a b*tch…things like that impart loads of flavor[[/B]/QUOTE]
That didn't impart any flavor. It was just stupid. Growing up in a non-patriarchal society that wouldn't feel the need to create demeaning put downs for women means that shouldn't be in Diana's vocabulary. I can't imagine her picking it up once she gets here either. If Strife's mere presence was making her angrier than usual, there are any number of things a furious Diana can come up with.
[QUOTE=BrianWilly;2530888]I'll tell you what though: if we hadn't gotten Rucka to come back to clean up with the Year One stuff, I would've had no problems at all accepting...say, Renae de Liz's LoWW as the bona fide mainline canon going forward. ;)
Of course, it's silly to take stories like LoWW and Earth One that were specifically intended to be separate from the main continuity and suddenly say "Hey, let's just make it the main continuity now" 'cuz of all the complications it would cause (and, again, the whole point being to [i]reduce[/i] those complications)...but in the case of LoWW, I wouldn't have minded making an exception![/QUOTE]
I really wouldn't have minded if Earth One was the main canon, but like you said, it defeats the purpose of giving the creators their own sandbox to play in away from main continuity, whereas the whole purpose of Year One is that its designed to go into effect alongside everything else. Relying on Perez can't work either unless they want to be bogged down by Diana Trevor, re-incarnated cavewomen, Steve and Etta being older and married and being way more boring than they could ever hope to be now, Barbara's backstory and connection to Diana being different and effectively taking the place of the Kapatelis women, Diana losing JL founder status, the Amazons having no technology and a whole bunch of stuff that they would have had to change around anyway so why not re-tell a streamlined origin story?
Between Infinite Crisis screwing around with the timeline One Year later and beyond, to Odyssey being an enormous waste of time, to Flashpoint and the various instances of Diana getting moved to new cities with new supporting casts (whether a reboot is in place or not, the end result is the same: she's all over the damn place), I can't say she's been doing that great without an updated canon origin. And it's not like there was any pretense that this was going to be anything other than mostly self contained re-telling anyway.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;2530988]I fail to see how this book isn't political.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's got terrorists doing terrorist things in public places, which is sadly very relevant to our times. Multiple queer characters. Attacks on patriarchal thinking. Some less subtle (like Cadullo) than others (Diana eyeing the fashion for women in Man's World with confusion, especially the uncomfortable looking heels that one woman was wearing). I'm not seeing how this doesn't have political elements but the previous run did?
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;2530988]I fail to see how this book isn't political.[/QUOTE]
GAH! I said DC.
Of course WW is political. I want them all to get more topical and weird.
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People talk about how things are going back to how they were pre-Flashpoint but pre-Flashpoint Steve was an Older man married to a white Etta Candy. Hell pre-Crises Steve was a major jerk always trying to get Diana to marry him now he's a Nice Guy(tm). They can even nail down what millitary branch he's in like Guile from Street Fighter.
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[QUOTE=Lokimaru;2531027]People talk about how things are going back to how they were pre-Flashpoint but pre-Flashpoint Steve was an Older man married to a white Etta Candy. Hell pre-Crises Steve was a major jerk always trying to get Diana to marry him now he's a Nice Guy(tm). They can even nail down what millitary branch he's in like Guile from Street Fighter.[/QUOTE]
Steve was only a jerk to Diana in the Silver Age and in that regard he was no different than any other male character during that time
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;2531011] That didn't impart any flavor. It was just stupid. Growing up in a non-patriarchal society that wouldn't feel the need to create demeaning put downs for women means that shouldn't be in Diana's vocabulary. I can't imagine her picking it up once she gets here either. If Strife's mere presence was making her angrier than usual, there are any number of things a furious Diana can come up with.
[/QUOTE]
Well that's the point actually, calling her a b*tch was not PC, it was "bad" but not so bad as to be contemptible, it was just the right amount of "bad" for my palate where it imparts Wonder Woman some zing, some flavor you know. What's stupid is how bland and lame she's now
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Is this really it for "year one"? All the hype and this whole thing was underwhelming and a waste. Everything was diluted with no actual tension and challenges.
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I don't think calling people b*tches makes a character more likable or something but, hey, your mileage may vary.
[QUOTE=LoveStar;2531147]Is this really it for "year one"? All the hype and this whole thing was underwhelming and a waste. Everything was diluted with no actual tension and challenges.[/QUOTE]Well, this is the end of the Year One "arc," but as far as I understand, the storylines will continue to be split between the past and the present. The next even-numbered arc, Godwatch, continues to be set in the past and apparently explores the origins of her rogues.
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[QUOTE=username_;2531119]Well that's the point actually, calling her a b*tch was not PC, it was "bad" but not so bad as to be contemptible, it was just the right amount of "bad" for my palate where it imparts Wonder Woman some zing, some flavor you know. What's stupid is how bland and lame she's now[/QUOTE]
IIRC Jimenez had Diana call Circe a b*tch back in the 90's so Azzarello was hardly being revolutionary.
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[QUOTE=Pinsir;2529026]The 2009 Animated film has probably been the definitive Wonder Woman origin story for some time now, not to mention we are getting a live-action film soon...[/QUOTE]
I still can't get past Ares with a mullet......
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[QUOTE=LoveStar;2531147]Is this really it for "year one"? All the hype and this whole thing was underwhelming and a waste. Everything was diluted with no actual tension and challenges.[/QUOTE]
What I've read certainly wasn't "Boy, I'm really glad we did this all over again for that."
Seems like at least a few folks feel that way. Quite a sales drop since issue #2.
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I'm disappointed. This was a watered down iteration of George Perez's post CRISIS reboot with a younger, unnecessarily shirtless Steve Trevor running around. I maintain Steve has served his purpose as Diana's ticket out of Themyscira and that should be the extent of their relationship. This star crossed thing Rucka's selling, I'm not buying. Again, many of us went from 1987-2011 without Steve as the male Lois Lane and nothing was lost from the mythos or Diana's characterization in all those years.
More bothersome to me is I don't even know what, if anything, survived The New 52. However Johns tries to brand #Afterbirth, but for the BATMAN and a few other titles, WONDER WOMAN sure feels like a bona fide reboot to me.
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[QUOTE=spirit2011;2530231]It was funny see Diana flying all over the world and a shirtless steve by her side
I wonder if there is some law the Gods can't show up as theirselves on the world, but only as avatars[/QUOTE]
As I said, Nicola Scott has declared her firm intention for Steve to lose his shirt as often as possible.
Kind of fitting, considering the actor playing him in the movie is also starring as James T Kirk ;)
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[QUOTE=Koriand'r;2531224]IIRC Jimenez had Diana call Circe a b*tch back in the 90's so Azzarello was hardly being revolutionary.[/QUOTE]
Actually no. Jimenez WANTED her to call Circe that, but editorial forced him to change it witch. He said after it was a completely lame insult, considering that you're talking about a, well, witch.
[And honestly, do we have to use a *? Everyone knows exactly what the word is and I see much worse on the other forums]
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;2530636]No, I meant that this deluge of Elseword origin stories we are getting for WW don't impact the main Canon, just like the Earth One books for the other two. So we can't point to them and be all "just use that". You said those stories don't count. Well, neither do these WW ones in relation to the main Canon.[/QUOTE]
They don't count as parts of the main canon. But that does not stop DC from telling anyone who asks about Diana's origins to just point at it for reference sake.
[QUOTE]So it's a bunch of flashback stories...in the middle of a story based during Clark's early years. When the prior Canon was ditched. Still a reset of his origins and early years. And yes, Morrison did what he wanted but we were still getting an origin story regardless. He just got to be in charge.[/QUOTE]
Save that I dont recall Morrison actually dealing with Krypton exploding or really showing us anything of Clarks childhood.
[QUOTE]Why can't I go before Flashpoint? We are discussing soft reboots and origin retelling for characters who got them and needed their crap sorted out even less than WW. This isn't a trend that statted with Flashpoint.[/QUOTE]
Becasue whatever happened to come before Flashpoint was for all intents and purposes wiped from the pages of history, they became non-canon. Thing is that Batman and Green Lantern didn't bother changing away from the direction that was serving them perfectly fine as it was, it's just the reasons that got them there that wasn't detailed or touched on again.
[QUOTE]I would agree with you of Year One was exactly the same as Perez's status quo. But a lot of details were changed because things in the present needed them to be.[/QUOTE]
Which makes it unsuitable to be used by others since they are going to be tripping over those wires Rucka connected to the present.
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You're really reaching here. There are no "wires" to trip over. The details of Wonder Woman's origin, as depicted in Year One, match up just fine with what's being shown in the present day. If any writer in the future wants to write about Wonder Woman's status quo, all they need to do is read the events here and they're all set, because it's being depicted very clearly.
Again, it would be very silly to "just point those Elseworlds stories" for reference's sake when all those stories aren't even all that comparable to [i]each other[/i]. Take Earth 1 and Legends of WW, for instance; Diana is a completely different character in these two books. Steve is a completely different character. Etta is a completely different character. Cheetah and Ares don't even appear. In one story, Diana wasn't even crowned the Amazons' champion and sent off with her important mission; she literally escaped from the island and then was dragged back in chains to face trial. One isn't even set in modern times, but in World War 2. One uses the clay origin, the others says [i]Heracles[/i] is now her father.
Saying that writers can simply look at those books to "reference" details for Rebirth Wonder Woman just makes me think people haven't actually been paying very close attention to those books! How can you bemoan Rucka supposedly setting up wires to trip over, then claim that a couple of virtually incomparable Wonder Woman origins can all work just fine as standard blueprints to reference?
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[QUOTE=numberthirty;2531569]What I've read certainly wasn't "Boy, I'm really glad we did this all over again for that."
Seems like at least a few folks feel that way. Quite a sales drop since issue #2.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I don't see why I should care for the supporting cast still. I'll take Azzarello's Diana being trained by Ares than this anti-climatic, watered down retelling.
The Disney Princess vibe needs to go to.
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[QUOTE=BrianWilly;2531196]
Well, this is the end of the Year One "arc," but as far as I understand, the storylines will continue to be split between the past and the present. The next even-numbered arc, Godwatch, continues to be set in the past and apparently explores the origins of her rogues.[/QUOTE]
This was suppose to be something definitive and hyped up. It wasn't. This and the present was suppose to connect and it doesn't. It just brought up more questions than answers and both stories are just gigantic drawn out retcons of new52 past and then present.
If the exploration of Wonder Woman's rogues are the same as Ares diluted introduction...that's nothing exciting
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What do you mean when you say "This and the present was supposed to connect"? That, and the "tripping over those wires Rucka connected to the present" statement from the post above are really confusing me.
Year One does connect with the present day storyline. We see the same characters in both the past and the present; one storyline shows how they all originally met Diana, and the other shows what they're all doing right now. I don't know what you guys mean when you say they don't connect, or that it somehow brought up more questions. :confused: Everything about Year One seems really clear to me right now.
If you're saying that the Year One storyline doesn't bluntly solve every single mystery about Diana's false memories...well, yeah. :p That wasn't the point. All it was intended to do was reestablish the official origin for Wonder Woman. It gave us some teases and hints, but for the most part we've been finding out the truth about Diana's false memories in the present day storyline, and will continue to do so in the next arcs. I mean...neither story is near over yet; did Azzarello conclude every single plot point of his run in just fourteen issues, after all? You know that he didn't.
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[QUOTE=BrianWilly;2532124]You're really reaching here. There are no "wires" to trip over. The details of Wonder Woman's origin, as depicted in Year One, match up just fine with what's being shown in the present day. If any writer in the future wants to write about Wonder Woman's status quo, all they need to do is read the events here and they're all set, because it's being depicted very clearly.[/QUOTE]
No, I am not, and I don't think you understand what I mean. It's a proven fact that the more closely connected one story is to another, the harder it is to untangle them if you wanted something from one of them without having to involve the other.
And it goes especially for this story, because the connecting story 'Lies/Truth' is promising a massive amount of changes.
[QUOTE]Again, it would be very silly to "just point those Elseworlds stories" for reference's sake when all those stories aren't even all that comparable to [i]each other[/i]. Take Earth 1 and Legends of WW, for instance; Diana is a completely different character in these two books. Steve is a completely different character. Etta is a completely different character. Cheetah and Ares don't even appear. In one story, Diana wasn't even crowned the Amazons' champion and sent off with her important mission; she literally escaped from the island and then was dragged back in chains to face trial. One isn't even set in modern times, but in World War 2. One uses the clay origin, the others says [i]Heracles[/i] is now her father.[/QUOTE]
Whoever said you had to point to ALL of the Elseworlds stories? You just point at one and go: "That one is the definitive one we will work from henceforth." And again Earth One is a better starting point because it's not connected to anything and not spread across 5 volumes.
[QUOTE]Saying that writers can simply look at those books to "reference" details for Rebirth Wonder Woman just makes me think people haven't actually been paying very close attention to those books! How can you bemoan Rucka supposedly setting up wires to trip over, then claim that a couple of virtually incomparable Wonder Woman origins can all work just fine as standard blueprints to reference?[/QUOTE]
No, it's just you who are not paying attention to what I am actually saying by the looks of things.
[QUOTE=BrianWilly;2532261]What do you mean when you say "This and the present was supposed to connect"? That, and the "tripping over those wires Rucka connected to the present" statement from the post above are really confusing me.[/QUOTE]
Lies and Year One are connected. Year One is one time period, and in Lies Diana is questioning why she is remembering it differently.
[QUOTE]Year One does connect with the present day storyline. We see the same characters in both the past and the present; one storyline shows how they all originally met Diana, and the other shows what they're all doing right now. I don't know what you guys mean when you say they don't connect, or that it somehow brought up more questions. :confused: Everything about Year One seems really clear to me right now.
[/QUOTE]
And thats not the thing. The thing is that somewhere between Lies and Year One, something happened, something big. Something that made everyone in Lies remember things differently, like they can reach Themyscira after leaving it, that Hippolyta is blond and so on. The question everyone is asking is which of these two is actually real and which one is a fantasy someone dreamt up to fool Diana.
[QUOTE]If you're saying that the Year One storyline doesn't bluntly solve every single mystery about Diana's false memories...well, yeah. :p That wasn't the point. All it was intended to do was reestablish the official origin for Wonder Woman. It gave us some teases and hints, but for the most part we've been finding out the truth about Diana's false memories in the present day storyline, and will continue to do so in the next arcs.
I mean...neither story is near over yet; did Azzarello conclude every single plot point of his run in just fourteen issues, after all? You know that he didn't.[/QUOTE]
YO was never meant to solve anything, but considering the ramifications it has on the other story-line, it should have provided something more than just base-level speculation. All we have, still, is the tree we only saw once and will only see again with the next issue in the present day, maybe with something more about what it is. And on top of it all, we dont know if YO ever happened or if it was just part of the dream.
Actually Year One is over and not continuing into another tale of the past. As for Azzarello, no, he had one big story he told in a linear manner, Rucka has one story he is approaching from several directions.
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[QUOTE=Outside_85;2532362]
Actually Year One is over and not continuing into another tale of the past. As for Azzarello, no, he had one big story he told in a linear manner, Rucka has one story he is approaching from several directions.[/QUOTE]
Actually it is! Godwatch is set in the past, and Rucka promised it will braid with The Truth better Than Year One-The Lies did.
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[QUOTE=LoveStar;2532220]Yeah, I don't see why I should care for the supporting cast still. I'll take Azzarello's Diana being trained by Ares than this anti-climatic, watered down retelling.
The Disney Princess vibe needs to go to.[/QUOTE]
How exactly is she similar to a Disney princess other than being a Disney princess?
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[QUOTE=Outside_85;2532050]Save that I dont recall Morrison actually dealing with Krypton exploding or really showing us anything of Clarks childhood.[/QUOTE]
Depends on how you define "dealing with it." We got Krypton exploding in issue #5 with Krypto getting sucked into the Phantom Zone, then Jor-El and Lara put Clark in the rocket, which then lands in Kansas and is found by John and Martha. The sequence wasn't long but was more than enough to establish a difference with the post-Crisis version, and we later got scenes of Clark and his father testing his powers against a bull and the Legion of Superheroes visiting him for the first time.
All of which took place as flashbacks in an overall run dealing with the rebooted early years of Superman. His run, especially the first arc with Brainiac, was basically a "Year One" for the new version of Clark.
[QUOTE=LoveStar;2532220]Yeah, I don't see why I should care for the supporting cast still. I'll take Azzarello's Diana being trained by Ares than this anti-climatic, watered down retelling.
The Disney Princess vibe needs to go to.[/QUOTE]
What Disney Princess vibe? All I can think of is the Gods appearing in animal aspects, which has its roots in actual mythology. And Diana isn't singing to them about a boy she likes or anything.
[QUOTE=LoveStar;2532227]This was suppose to be something definitive and hyped up. It wasn't. [B]This and the present was suppose to connect and it doesn't.[/B] It just brought up more questions than answers and both stories are just gigantic drawn out retcons of new52 past and then present.
If the exploration of Wonder Woman's rogues are the same as Ares diluted introduction...that's nothing exciting[/QUOTE]
The connections are fairly obvious. The snake bite she gets in Year One part 2 starts bleeding when the Lies are revealed in the present, the ominous black tree that appears on the fake island is the same symbol used by the Sear group, Ares disperses into various animals associated with him including two dogs that look suspiciously like the ones in the company of Veronica Cale, the "Maru" virus shares its name with Dr. Poison, and it shows Diana's first chronological meetings with her friends that are also around in the present day.
It's hard to miss all those. Especially as Rucka said the two stories would "echo" each other, but not the point that Year One can't stand on it's own. There was no pretense of anything else happening.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;2532775]
What Disney Princess vibe? All I can think of is the Gods appearing in animal aspects, which has its roots in actual mythology. And Diana isn't singing to them about a boy she likes or anything.
The connections are fairly obvious. The snake bite she gets in Year One part 2 starts bleeding when the Lies are revealed in the present, the ominous black tree that appears on the fake island is the same symbol used by the Sear group, Ares disperses into various animals associated with him including two dogs that look suspiciously like the ones in the company of Veronica Cale, the "Maru" virus shares its name with Dr. Poison, and it shows Diana's first chronological meetings with her friends that are also around in the present day.
It's hard to miss all those. Especially as Rucka said the two stories would "echo" each other, but not the point that Year One can't stand on it's own. There was no pretense of anything else happening.[/QUOTE]
Well she was humming in the previous issue so, singing just might be the next thing. She has also been stuck in an illusion for 5 years so maybe she is Sleeping Beauty. She is given this doe-eyed happy go lucky attitude. Again, no real tension or challenge just something you would see in a Disney Princess movie. And the god animals....meh. Azzarello's Gods miles better even with their attitudes.
The two stories was to retcon new52, it did that in the most dull way. Don't care about a tree...it's a tree. And a snake bite that conviniently and contrivantly starts bleeding after 10 years.
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[QUOTE=LoveStar;2532886]Well she was humming in the previous issue so, singing just might be the next thing. She has also been stuck in an illusion for 5 years so maybe she is Sleeping Beauty. She is given this doe-eyed happy go lucky attitude. Again, no real tension or challenge just something you would see in a Disney Princess movie. And the god animals....meh. Azzarello's Gods miles better even with their attitudes.
The two stories was to retcon new52, it did that in the most dull way. Don't care about a tree...it's a tree. And a snake bite that conviniently and contrivantly starts bleeding after 10 years.[/QUOTE]
Oh wow, humming and a positive attitude. Only Disney has ever done either of those.
How much you care about the connections and how you feel about their execution is subjective. That's quite a bit different than there being no obvious connections at all, which is what some have said but doesn't work when the echos are so obviously pointed out.