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  1. #121
    Mighty Member Valamist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    You mean the great masses of what...15,000 - 20,000 readers who are buying the books? I sure hope Marvel has enough Far Alt-Left fans to keep them in business and those books from cancellation.
    Well, as a fan of characters like Laura, Kate and Jane I will be buying those books until they are canceled!
    Marvel: - Avengers, Fantastic Four, The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl, Uncanny X-Men, X-23, Old Man Logan, Thor, Captain Marvel, Runaways, West Coast Avengers.
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  2. #122
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valamist View Post
    I was hoping to see a more 'classic' Avengers like Thor, rather then a pre-worthy one, but I still enjoyed it. I liked the interaction between Jane & Odinson. Nice bits of characterization, such as Jane seeing how inspiring Odinson can be, an aspect of 'Thor' she is lacking. Plus seeing Apocalypse was cool, and I liked the ending. Never been much of a Odin fan, but I am looking forward to seeing his past exposed.
    The ending does suggest the Vikings won after defeating Apocalypse, because Thor was able to cut off the Sphinxes nose. You can't cut that off unless you are in control of the Empire?

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    You mean the great masses of what...15,000 - 20,000 readers who are buying the books? I sure hope Marvel has enough Far Alt-Left fans to keep them in business and those books from cancellation.
    If you think that you have to be a member of the "Far Alt-Left" (not a real thing, by the way) in order to enjoy books like Spider-Man, The Mighty Thor, Ms. Marvel, All-New Wolverine, or Hawkeye, anything that doesn't feature a straight white male protagonist must be too "liberal" for your sensibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valamist View Post
    Well, as a fan of characters like Laura, Kate and Jane I will be buying those books until they are canceled!
    Hear, hear!

  4. #124
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valamist View Post
    Well, as a fan of characters like Laura, Kate and Jane I will be buying those books until they are canceled!
    Personally, when people bitch about these books, it inspires me to sub to them on comixology rather than wait for the price drop or trade later.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    If you think that you have to be a member of the "Far Alt-Left" (not a real thing, by the way) in order to enjoy books like Spider-Man, The Mighty Thor, Ms. Marvel, All-New Wolverine, or Hawkeye, anything that doesn't feature a straight white male protagonist must be too "liberal" for your sensibilities. !
    Again...you automatically assume that because I don't like these characters that I am a white nationalist or racist,or that I only prefer my characters to be "white"...you resort to subtle demonization of character and name calling.In my experience...the majority of the people reading those books either have no problem with the Far Left messaging because they themselves are Far Leftists...or because they simply are ignorant of the political messaging itself.
    Again...enjoy the books that are selling a measly 15,000 - 20.000 units...but I have a feeling they won't be around too much longer.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    Again...you automatically assume that because I don't like these characters that I am a white nationalist or racist,or that I only prefer my characters to be "white"...you resort to subtle demonization of character and name calling.In my experience...the majority of the people reading those books either have no problem with the Far Left messaging because they themselves are Far Leftists...or because they simply are ignorant of the political messaging itself.
    Again...enjoy the books that are selling a measly 15,000 - 20.000 units...but I have a feeling they won't be around too much longer.
    If you're claiming that those books contain "Far Left messaging," when they're very mainstream superhero books that just happen to star female or minority protagonists, don't be surprised by what people might think of your views.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 08-27-2017 at 05:29 AM.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    Again...you automatically assume that because I don't like these characters that I am a white nationalist or racist,or that I only prefer my characters to be "white"...you resort to subtle demonization of character and name calling.In my experience...the majority of the people reading those books either have no problem with the Far Left messaging because they themselves are Far Leftists...or because they simply are ignorant of the political messaging itself.
    Again...enjoy the books that are selling a measly 15,000 - 20.000 units...but I have a feeling they won't be around too much longer.
    The human population of the world has pretty much always been ~50% women (and had bunches of brown and black people). So, apparently, it's the *world* that's always been 'far left.'

    And, the womens (and the blacks, and the browns, and the gays, etc.) have the moneys to spend. For a company that wants the moneys, to only cater to the smaller subset of the population that is male, white, straight, abled, etc. is self-defeating, since even the male, white, straight, abled, customers might, at some point in their lives, grow up and fall in love with a woman (or a person of color) and want to see someone like the person they love represented (or at least treated respectfully) in their choice of entertainment.

    It's just business. Comics, as a business, have been shrinking in market share for decades, since, long, long before any sort of 'diversity push.'

    Indeed, it was the early 'diversity push' that resulted in the creation of characters like Storm and Cyborg that led to the biggest sales numbers seen in my lifetime, and, I'm sure, there was some Archie Bunker-type complaining about why there had to be a black person shoved down their throat on the Teen Titans or X-Men.

    Appealing to a smaller and smaller population of readers *clearly no longer works.* So, yeah, they are trying new stuff, hoping to grow their audience. I don't think it's really going to help all that much. The customer wants entertainment that fits on their phone, and the future of comics appears to be comic book movies and comic book animated films and comic book TV/Netflix/Hulu series, with the actual paper comic books serving primarily as a marketing vector for those more profitable stories (that can take years to craft, and only hours to consume, leaving some use for monthly floppies to keep up the interest in those properties while Iron Man 16: Electric Boogaloo is filming).

    And if you care at all about being thought a white nationalist, then don't use their language. Terms like 'far left' or 'SJW' or 'cuck' or whatever are specialized language used by these groups, a form of, as you say, 'subtle demonization of character and name calling.' If you don't like the mud-throwing, put down the mud. If you don't like whiny victimization, don't be a whiny victim.
    Last edited by Sutekh; 08-26-2017 at 10:52 PM.

  8. #128
    Mighty Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Appealing to a smaller and smaller population of readers *clearly no longer works.* So, yeah, they are trying new stuff, hoping to grow their audience. I don't think it's really going to help all that much. The customer wants entertainment that fits on their phone, and the future of comics appears to be comic book movies and comic book animated films and comic book TV/Netflix/Hulu series, with the actual paper comic books serving primarily as a marketing vector for those more profitable stories (that can take years to craft, and only hours to consume, leaving some use for monthly floppies to keep up the interest in those properties while Iron Man 16: Electric Boogaloo is filming).
    Ironically, it's this push away from the Marvel fanbase that has rapidly accelerated the decline of the comic books industry as whole. You're taking about the steadfastly loyal fans that have supported Marvel through thick and thin in a rapidly changing marketplace. The Tumblr crowd that Marvel wants instead is nothing more than a mirage, they'll never buying comic books as the poor sale of Marvel's recent efforts have already proven. Most of Marvel's new initiatives like Wasp and Mosaic have already failed and been cancelled, the rest will follow soon enough. This should be a moment of reflection, a chance for Marvel's editorial leadership to realise they've made a mistake by rejecting the Marvel fanbase, but Marvel will probably just double-down on the unpopular ideas that have already brought them to the brink of ruin.

  9. #129
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    They are not 'on the brink of ruin', that's just what you want to believe, doesn't make it true, the numbers don't back that belief up. They are still the leading publisher in the direct market. If Marvel's diversity push was a problem, then DC should have pulled ahead for more than a few months here and there, should they not? But nope, still second place, despite catering to the old school fans pretty heavily with Rebirth. Has the direct market as a whole shrunk over time? Yes, it has, and the maximum number of issues a book can be expected to sell within the direct market has shrunk along with it. But if what Marvel was doing was more harmful than what other publishers were doing, their market share would have shrunk significantly more rapidly than the others, and it hasn't. The numbers simply don't show that happening. Also, some of the titles that people complain the most about, such as Thor, are successful! No, not Batman numbers or anything, but for a Thor book, a character that has traditionally had a smaller audience, it's doing very well. Jane has been Thor for over 30 issues now, and it is still going strong. A lot of moving goalposts though. When she first appeared, you saw a lot of people giving it 6 issues, then they said sales would crater. But 6 issues came and went, and it was still doing fine, so then it would tank at 12 issues, etc. but it's never happened. Yeah, there have been some misses along the way, books that bombed. But cherry picking the 'diversity' books that flopped doesn't prove a damn thing, because there have been misses on books starring straight white men with no political commentary whatsoever, some books just don't catch on.
    Last edited by Raye; 08-26-2017 at 11:30 PM.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb52 View Post
    Again...enjoy the books that are selling a measly 15,000 - 20.000 units...but I have a feeling they won't be around too much longer.
    Isn't Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider the only Marvel book you're currently reading? That's doing less than 23, 000 by its 5th issue.

    Meanwhile:

    Jane has outsold Odinson's last volume, and has yet to drop below the 30k range.
    Laura is doing about as well as the last Wolverine volume, perhaps better when you account for sales increasing due to the announcement of Logan's death.
    Ms. Marvel didn't drop below 23, 000 until its 15th issue, and makes most of its sales through digital and trade.
    Spider-Man is on its 18th issue and is still doing better than Scarlet Spider.

    When nearly all of the Marvel books you criticized are selling better than the only Marvel book you're currently reading, then from a sales perspective, shouldn't Marvel approach be to focus more on catering to people that read those books, than catering to you?
    Last edited by Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever; 08-27-2017 at 05:50 PM.

  11. #131
    Mighty Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    They are not 'on the brink of ruin', that's just what you want to believe, doesn't make it true, the numbers don't back that belief up. They are still the leading publisher in the direct market. If Marvel's diversity push was a problem, then DC should have pulled ahead for more than a few months here and there, should they not? But nope, still second place, despite catering to the old school fans pretty heavily with Rebirth. Has the direct market as a whole shrunk over time? Yes, it has, and the maximum number of issues a book can be expected to sell within the direct market has shrunk along with it. But if what Marvel was doing was more harmful than what other publishers were doing, their market share would have shrunk significantly more rapidly than the others, and it hasn't. The numbers simply don't show that happening. Also, some of the titles that people complain the most about, such as Thor, are successful! No, not Batman numbers or anything, but for a Thor book, a character that has traditionally had a smaller audience, it's doing very well. Jane has been Thor for over 30 issues now, and it is still going strong. A lot of moving goalposts though. When she first appeared, you saw a lot of people giving it 6 issues, then they said sales would crater. But 6 issues came and went, and it was still doing fine, so then it would tank at 12 issues, etc. but it's never happened. Yeah, there have been some misses along the way, books that bombed. But cherry picking the 'diversity' books that flopped doesn't prove a damn thing, because there have been misses on books starring straight white men with no political commentary whatsoever, some books just don't catch on.
    When even Marvel's top comics have a hard time breaking 50,000 copies it's time for a drastic rethink about the direction of the company as a whole. Characters like Wasp and Mosaic were supposed to lead the way, to bring in new readers and supplement the shrinking direct market. Instead both Wasp and Mosaic are gone, along with just about everything else Marvel has tried over the last few years. Even Jane Foster might soon be ending her tenure on Thor, if the hints so far are any indication. At any rate suspect the recent surge in Thor sales is probably due to the arrival of the War Thor then the usual heavy-handed diatribes that pass for most Thor issues these days. The negative reception to Generations: The Thunder is just the latest misstep from Marvel.

  12. #132
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Can I request that phrases like 'far left' not be used in threads that I make?

    Or arguments that women, people of color, and queer people are ruining comics despite comics featuring these minority characters selling well (in this market), for the most part?

    Is that a thing I can do???

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  13. #133
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Reader View Post
    Surely you know where all this Odin/Phoesnix stuff is leading don't you...

    It really clearly only has to do with Legacy itself, we've already seen Quentin in Thor and it didn't last.

    Plus Jean Grey is pretty heavily dealing with the Phoenix, it's cornered off there.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    When even Marvel's top comics have a hard time breaking 50,000 copies it's time for a drastic rethink about the direction of the company as a whole. Characters like Wasp and Mosaic were supposed to lead the way, to bring in new readers and supplement the shrinking direct market.
    No, they weren't. In what way were these characters supposed to "supplement the shrinking direct market"? Got any quotes from any Marvel people on that?

    Both Nadia and Mosiac were characters that, like any characters, were put out there with the hopes that their books would catch on. But, like many books - with all manner of protagonists - they didn't take off. But there was never any special importance placed on their need to succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    The negative reception to Generations: The Thunder is just the latest misstep from Marvel.
    Negative reception from who? People who already hate Jane Foster?

    Generations: Thor has actually gotten a very warm response. The people who don't like it are clearly the people who already are resentful towards Jane Foster Thor.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 08-27-2017 at 05:32 AM.

  15. #135
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Generations: Thor has actually gotten a very warm response. The people who don't like it are clearly the people who already are resentful towards Jane Foster Thor.
    which is a lot.
    Last edited by GodThor; 08-27-2017 at 08:01 AM.

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