Pick a team for a Lois & Clark romance comic

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Maybe they could grab some of the writers from that Fresh Romance series ?

Cecil Castellucci wrote one of those Fresh Romance issues, and she's currently working for DC, writing Shade, the Changing Girl. She's actually written a bit of Lois already in a Wonder Woman story she did in Sensation Comics.

Then there's Marguerite Bennett who's working on several DC books right now.

[Nelliebly]

This is a huge market that often goes on tapped. Many of the first Superman forums on the net were created by women who feel in love with the character because of Lois and Clark the New Adventures of Superman. It maybe difficult to get them to "cross over" to comics again, after all they felt attacked the most when DC first destroyed the marriage with the New 52, but if you could bring them in honestly it would be a huge market.

These were the forums I used to "sneak" when I was a kid. I say "sneak" because there was adult content on some of those sites for Lois and Clark and clearly I was too young. LOL. But I was desperate for more and it was my first fandom!

Teri Hatcher says that even now, despite all her years on Desperate Housewives, she still gets women all over who stop her and tell her that Lois was their hero as a kid and that LnC was the only show their family could watch together.

And, of course, Tyler Hoechlin has openly said many times that Lois and Clark was his true intro to Superman and one of his favorite shows. It had an impact on men too who were kids then but are grown men now. Hoechlin is prob our first Superman actor who grew up in the generation where LnC was a huge influence. Cavill did too but he's not American so the impact may not have been as big. But here the show was a big deal for a LOT of girls and it really could be rebooted again either on TV or novels or something with a more mature and modern tone. It would easily be the highest rated show on the CW. As much as I like Supergirl (and I do)...I actually do think Lois and Clark is the only thing that might actually compete with Flash ratings.

[Nelliebly]

Oh yeah Zoom was great, a true expert in the field. She was the one who taught me about the Superman newspaper strips, and how well into the late 40s Clark had no problem with killing in them. It's also where Lois and Clark first got married, which was only changed to a "dream" a few years after their official marriage because of the original Adventures of Superman tv show. The strip kept the spirit of the Golden Age stories going on much longer then the comics, mostly because they weren't completely controlled by DC comics.

I agree. She cultivated an amazing space where thousands of women (men too but mostly women) could gather and geek out about Superman. Her impact on women in the fandom cannot be overstated and it really makes me remember that she is proof that our voices do matter and are important no matter how often the male dominance of comics makes me feel like giving up. She proved we had a space and a place and it sounds corny but I'll never forget it.

I also met some amazing women on the Divine Intervention board when Smallville was on the air. Smart, smart women. I learned a lot from them too. All ages and backgrounds. I'm still friendly with some of them but some of them kind of dropped out of fandom when they tried to transition from the show to comics and then between Grounded and The New 52....they just have up. And I get it. There's a void here. WB is throwing money and franchise depth away by not using it. Women would show up for this kind of show or novel. They always do. And it helps the longevity of the myth because it creates a passion in people outside the traditional comics demo.

[victorsage]

I agree. She cultivated an amazing space where thousands of women (men too but mostly women) could gather and geek out about Superman. Her impact on women in the fandom cannot be overstated and it really makes me remember that she is proof that our voices do matter and are important no matter how often the male dominance of comics makes me feel like giving up. She proved we had a space and a place and it sounds corny but I'll never forget it.

I only ever talked to her threw messages, or on her board, I had admiration for her. She knew more about the topic than most guys, she was a true expert, and she did make a great connection, allowing women to feel that it was "ok" that they liked the same stuff the boys did. She taught me a lot of the golden age, and was always kind. She defend the original Lois Lane and Clark Kent dynamic better then anyone I knew. She didn't love the silver age much, but didn't hate it like I do.

Anyway she was a great women, who's impact is still felt in the fandom even today. She was a wealth of knowledge and was kind enough to share with anyone who asked, and as far as debaters go she was one of the best. She was good at defending what she loves, and only God could help you if you didn't do you homework. As a guy who was a fan of Superman before the show, she still taught me a lot and helped me to appreciate the characters more.

[Nelliebly]

Hmm this is more difficult than I would've thought. There aren't many comic writers that are any good at romance, and unless the book is meant to be aimed completely at a female audience I'd be hesitant to hire a straight up romance novel writer either. A couple people mentioned Rucka, but he's always struck me as being much more of a Lois fan than a Superman fan so I wouldn't put him on a book with them as co-leads. Simone is probably the best bet from established comic writers.

Actually, a couple of people mentioned Sejic as an artist but I wouldn't mind seeing him write the book too. He's got some romance comic experience with Sunstone and I've always enjoyed the little strips of Superman he's done.

I mean...I think the point though is that it absolutely::should:: be geared towards a female demo as a priority. Which doesn't mean men can't read it. I know men, for example, who enjoy Outlander both as a show and a book series. But the demo should be women.

There is a stigma attached to "romance" as a genre and that's silly. The stigma is there distinctly because women are the demo. But that's why it's important to be willing to hire someone who truly understands romance because I think a point can be that we want to break down the stigma and show that marketing a Superman book with women as primary demo (frankly as Lois and Clark did to much success) is a positive thing. If men read or watch ...great! But the market is saturated with products for men with women as an afterthought and while it would be GREAT if men liked it, the point is that it doesn't have to be for them.

Also, I disagree about Greg. Greg Rucka loves Superman. But Rucka is also a feminist ally (a real one not a fake one like some others) and he feels passionately that Lois is often underserved, under appreciated and mistreated. He's protective of Lois the same way he is of Wonder Woman. He does love Clark. But he's wise enough to know that because literally all the writers are men...Clark has people in his corner most of the time. Whereas, Lois doesn't. He throws his support behind Lois not as a slight to Superman but because he feels Lois is often mistreated. If you listen to Greg on podcasts, you will hear clearly that he loves Superman. I appreciate Greg's passion for Lois and Diana very much. We need men like him.

[Soubhagya]

There is definitely a market for this and what frustrates me is that Lois (and the romance) is extremely popular outside comics circles but most of those women don't read comics because the Superman books are so inconsistent with how they treat her. When Smallville was on the air, the LnC board "Divine Intervention" was frequented by thousands of women a day. Thousands of women creating content, talking about Superman and having deep convos together. I remember distinctly that many of them wanted to read comics but it wasn't long after the show ended that the new 52 dropped and most of them just faded away as potential customers. The market doesn't reflect these women as a demo and it's sad and limiting to the stability of the franchise. I'm old enough to remember the huge female fandom that drove "Lois and Clark" too. I was only a little kid then but I used to sneak on the boards (using good old AOL) and read all the fandom discussions. The board for LnC was still active for years. It only slowed down in the last few years when, sadly, the woman who ran it died of cancer. . She was a lifelong Superman fan and a real leader for women in the franchise. It made me so sad to hear she had passed away.

The Lois YA novels are, according to Bond, the reason other characters like Batman, Wonder Woman etc are getting novels now. The trilogy was popular and got a Kirkus star which is a big deal in the publishing world. Obviously, those books have a teen slant but they are notable for a perfect blend of heroism and individual development for Lois and a teen romance with Clark as a side plot. The 3rd book ends (spoiler alert!) with the two of them kissing each other in person and Lois tells Clark that she ::will:: find out his secret one day. Clark says that he knows she will. You get the sense they meet back up again later on as adults. It's really well done.

Personally, I would like to see a romance book in the vein of The Outlander Books which are also about a husband and wife in rather supernatural/intense circumstances. Several women on Tumblr have actually pitched this idea even as a show rooted in the Outlander style. The overall point, I think, is that there is a base that wants a story that really focuses on their marriage in all it's complex, mature, messy, romantic glory. I have zero doubt that if CW wanted to launch a Superman show again and really cater to women as an audience they should do a "Lois and Clark" reboot. But I would want it done right with the right tone, the right budget and the right maturity. In the meantime though, I would kill to see Outlander author Diana Galdabon write Superman. Her work with Jamie and Claire (who do bear some resemblance to Lois and Clark in some ways) shows she would get it. After all, Henry Cavill himself has openly referred to Jamie Frazier as "the Scottish Superman." LOL

I am sorry on learning about the passing away of a fellow Superfan At times like this i wish i had been a fan of Superman earlier. So many leave us everyday leaving the world a bit empty.

I am repeating the obvious.Lois Lane novels show there are people who love this. Lois and Clark ran for four seasons which was more or less the same concept. We are comic book fans in general Superman in particular. Don't we want to share our joy with those who are around us? In our various fights Lane or Diana, BvS good or bad we sometimes forget that we are the ones who keep Superman alive. It is fun to have such fights. It makes fandom enjoyable. But we can also think of ways to bring Superman and his ilk into the hands of those who may due to some reason unable to enter comics. By pushing this idea in whichever way possible we can have more sweet people like the kindly lady mentioned here. We can have more Superfans It is always better to have more comic book readers.

A couple people mentioned Rucka, but he's always struck me as being much more of a Lois fan than a Superman fan so I wouldn't put him on a book with them as co-leads.

I would not mind Lois to be more important in these books. Well Superman is more important in the regular titles. Romance book means we will obviously have Superman.

P.S. It is not that she or any fan can be replaceable. But you can get the idea.

[JAK]

I know. :/. It broke my heart to hear she had died. I learned so much about Superman from her. When I was a kid, no joke, I used to sneak internet time to read the Zoomway Lois and Clark forum. So many women over there writing fic and essays about Lois and Clark. Zoomway knew EVERYTHING. She had been reading comics for decades. She was really the one that taught me so, so much I didn't know! It just goes to show what an amazing difference it can make when girls have a voice and a space. There is this untapped side of the franchise that just isn't encompassed by comics. But I still look back on those days in LnC and Smallville fandom with all of these girls rejoicing together over Superman and Lois and it makes me so nostalgic and wistful because they are part of the larger base for the myth and the franchise but there is so little for them. And it's bad business! The Superman brand depends on that kind of passion. The Gwenda Bond books were a great start but we need more because the audience is there.

Rest In Peace, Zoomway and thank you for teaching 10 year old me so much about Superman and Lois Lane!

That is just too cool. I wish I could have known about the forums at the time and gotten to know Zoomway. Around that time (I was 16 in 1996) I was more or less living vicariously through Lois and Clark's relationship/marriage because I didn't think I'd find anyone like that, so I may have fit in well. It was such an inspiration to me, and drawing on each other for strength and determination and that being the core of many comics stories as well as in the show.

And completely agreed on the untapped side of the franchise. There's a weird irony that the "love triangle" is such a well-known element of many classic stories, and here's DC largely (with Superman) spurning one HUGE part of the fanbase that's aching for content while trying to please another that doesn't care about them in the slightest. Life imitating Pre-Crisis art, I suppose.

But there are a good number of female Superfans who come to the Superman Celebration each year - and if you or anyone else gets a chance to go (especially with the 80th next year), everybody is like extended family. It's a lot of fun, too.

[JAK]

I mean...I think the point though is that it absolutely::should:: be geared towards a female demo as a priority. Which doesn't mean men can't read it. I know men, for example, who enjoy Outlander both as a show and a book series. But the demo should be women.

There is a stigma attached to "romance" as a genre and that's silly. The stigma is there distinctly because women are the demo. But that's why it's important to be willing to hire someone who truly understands romance because I think a point can be that we want to break down the stigma and show that marketing a Superman book with women as primary demo (frankly as Lois and Clark did to much success) is a positive thing. If men read or watch ...great! But the market is saturated with products for men with women as an afterthought and while it would be GREAT if men liked it, the point is that it doesn't have to be for them.

Agreed. And there's enough of us who'd totally be on board for it. And I can speak to the romance-stigma from experience, there are several franchises we like that I've defended (and still do) like crazy because of the blind hate that exists in culture for things deemed "for girls" or, heaven forbid... "YA female".

I am sorry on learning about the passing away of a fellow Superfan At times like this i wish i had been a fan of Superman earlier. So many leave us everyday leaving the world a bit empty.

I am repeating the obvious.Lois Lane novels show there are people who love this. Lois and Clark ran for four seasons which was more or less the same concept. We are comic book fans in general Superman in particular. Don't we want to share our joy with those who are around us? In our various fights Lane or Diana, BvS good or bad we sometimes forget that we are the ones who keep Superman alive. It is fun to have such fights. It makes fandom enjoyable. But we can also think of ways to bring Superman and his ilk into the hands of those who may due to some reason unable to enter comics. By pushing this idea in whichever way possible we can have more sweet people like the kindly lady mentioned here. We can have more Superfans It is always better to have more comic book readers.

I would not mind Lois to be more important in these books. Well Superman is more important in the regular titles. Romance book means we will obviously have Superman.

P.S. It is not that she or any fan can be replaceable. But you can get the idea.

It's good just to have more vocal fans of the Superverse, in general; often, DC's decades-long Bat-fetish has made it seem like Superman's a second-stringer, which is just bull. And a vocal fanbase, especially the female side, would do a LOT for the character in general.

[MeloDet]

I mean...I think the point though is that it absolutely::should:: be geared towards a female demo as a priority. Which doesn't mean men can't read it. I know men, for example, who enjoy Outlander both as a show and a book series. But the demo should be women.

There is a stigma attached to "romance" as a genre and that's silly. The stigma is there distinctly because women are the demo. But that's why it's important to be willing to hire someone who truly understands romance because I think a point can be that we want to break down the stigma and show that marketing a Superman book with women as primary demo (frankly as Lois and Clark did to much success) is a positive thing. If men read or watch ...great! But the market is saturated with products for men with women as an afterthought and while it would be GREAT if men liked it, the point is that it doesn't have to be for them.

Also, I disagree about Greg. Greg Rucka loves Superman. But Rucka is also a feminist ally (a real one not a fake one like some others) and he feels passionately that Lois is often underserved, under appreciated and mistreated. He's protective of Lois the same way he is of Wonder Woman. He does love Clark. But he's wise enough to know that because literally all the writers are men...Clark has people in his corner most of the time. Whereas, Lois doesn't. He throws his support behind Lois not as a slight to Superman but because he feels Lois is often mistreated. If you listen to Greg on podcasts, you will hear clearly that he loves Superman. I appreciate Greg's passion for Lois and Diana very much. We need men like him.

Oh I certainly agree that the book should be for the most part geared towards female audiences; I guess a better way of phrasing my statement would be that it depends on the extent to which they are aiming for a female demo. Are they writing 100% focused on the female demo and any men that read are just a bonus? or do they want to at least keep men in mind and make a small effort to make it more enjoyable for them as well. I'm a little biased here to be honest, since I enjoy romance but find that a lot of it is difficult to get into as a guy, so I'm always on the look out for some that is either male targeted or at least keeps male readers in mind. Outlander, as you mentioned, would be an example of a franchise that (IMO) puts some thought into male readers even though it's primarily targeted towards women.

In regards to the stigma against romance I agree as well. I didn't mean to imply anything negative about the genre or even the writers, I just find that romance novels often are to men what fantasy novels can be to women (though less so these days). That is that while many of the better writers are good with characters of the opposite gender, the further the quality dips the more those cracks start to show. The further you go and the more "escapist" the story is the less balanced it becomes. If they were able to snag a top quality romance writer then the point would likely be moot.

As for Rucka.. well I'll have to check out some of the podcasts then, cause I've never seen him express any sort of passion or love for the character before.

[Nelliebly]

Oh I certainly agree that the book should be for the most part geared towards female audiences; I guess a better way of phrasing my statement would be that it depends on the extent to which they are aiming for a female demo. Are they writing 100% focused on the female demo and any men that read are just a bonus? or do they want to at least keep men in mind and make a small effort to make it more enjoyable for them as well. I'm a little biased here to be honest, since I enjoy romance but find that a lot of it is difficult to get into as a guy, so I'm always on the look out for some that is either male targeted or at least keeps male readers in mind. Outlander, as you mentioned, would be an example of a franchise that (IMO) puts some thought into male readers even though it's primarily targeted towards women.

In regards to the stigma against romance I agree as well. I didn't mean to imply anything negative about the genre or even the writers, I just find that romance novels often are to men what fantasy novels can be to women (though less so these days). That is that while many of the better writers are good with characters of the opposite gender, the further the quality dips the more those cracks start to show. The further you go and the more "escapist" the story is the less balanced it becomes. If they were able to snag a top quality romance writer then the point would likely be moot.

As for Rucka.. well I'll have to check out some of the podcasts then, cause I've never seen him express any sort of passion or love for the character before.

I hear what you are saying here but I guess my response to this is why should they even care about trying to Court men when they don't give women the same courtesy 99% of the time? That's the point.

The new Superman origin written by Frank Miller is a perfect example of this. We have Superman origin after origin written by older white men. Do some women read Frank Miller? Sure. But you would be hard pressed to argue that anything he does has any true female demo or caters to women. There are so many female writers out there who would give their left arm to have a shot at a Superman origin but we literally never get any opportunities to be treated as equals. It's just story after story written by men with women as an afterthought. And it's really sad because it limits the franchise. Frank Miller on Superman may move books but he isn't challenging or expanding the demographic reading these books or supporting the franchise in any capacity. He's catering to a very specific male demo and a good portion of his work and appeal stems from things that are openly aggressively unfriendly to female audiences. And he hates Lois. His comments about her are sad and sexist yet HE is writing a Superman origin. That's...really unfair. And it's sort of a classic example of how DC sets women up (and by proxy Lois up) to fail. Because they cater over and over again to the same male demo--a demo that, at times, has open hostility to our female heroes and doesn't treat them fairly. Or kills them off. Or marginalizes them. Or mischaracterizes them. (And I realize that a lot of men are tired of this happening too. I know a lot of you are openly critical of Miller but I'm using it as an example here.)

So my point with this is...I think we deserve someone to come along who frankly cares more about Lois and finally puts her first because we've earned that much. Men don't always need to be part of the equation. Because, god knows, no one was thinking about women when they hired Frank Miller. We were a total afterthought. And Lois deserves better.

For what it's worth though, I can't fathom that a Lois and Clark love story written in the style of Outlander would treat Clark poorly. I think there is a misconception that a romance would mean less development for him but I think it's just the opposite. I think women (at least the women I know) are passionate about stories that develop him as a complex person. I think there is feminism to be found in a lot of romance where the man in question is truly good and heroic all complex. Outlander, much like Superman, takes the idea of a woman who doesn't fight physically but is very, very strong willed and a man who is the "traditional" hero with a sword and turns it on its head by challenging different dynamics without ever sacrificing either character. Which, at its best, was also what Lois and Clark used to do. And it's what Smallville did in its later seasons as well.

I think it's worth reflecting on the reality that when you are used to having everything catered with you in mind ...equality can feel like the man is getting the shaft. But this idea doesn't mean that men get forgotten. It means that we want to see Lois treated as the equal she is (and was meant to be) and deserves to be. And i think the only way to break down that barrier is to truly shake up how we tell these stories. And I think only someone really committed to Lois and that demo can truly do this. It doesn't mean they don't also care about Superman. (In fact, I've literally never met someone who really loved Lois who didn't also love Clark Kent.) And sometimes that means going out of your way to just commit to women full stop and trust that they can carry the franchise for a time. And if men come along for the ride? Like many of them did for "Lois and Clark?" (And like many do for Outlander) then great! But have enough faith to let them be an afterthought Bc that's literally what many women have dealt with for decades now. I don't feel angry when I see DC announcing yet another origin written by a white guy over 50. I just feel....sad. Because it just feels like we give so much and there is no place for us. :/

This is a fascinating convo btw and I'm grateful to all those having it.

[MeloDet]

I hear what you are saying here but I guess my response to this is why should they even care about trying to Court men when they don't give women the same courtesy 99% of the time? That's the point.

So my point with this is...I think we deserve someone to come along who frankly cares more about Lois and finally puts her first because we've earned that much. Men don't always need to be part of the equation. Because, god knows, no one was thinking about women when they hired Frank Miller. We were a total afterthought. And Lois deserves better.

I think it's worth reflecting on the reality that when you are used to having everything catered with you in mind ...equality can feel like the man is getting the shaft. But this idea doesn't mean that men get forgotten. It means that we want to see Lois treated as the equal she is (and was meant to be) and deserves to be. And i think the only way to break down that barrier is to truly shake up how we tell these stories. And I think only someone really committed to Lois and that demo can truly do this. It doesn't mean they don't also care about Superman. (In fact, I've literally never met someone who really loved Lois who didn't also love Clark Kent.) And sometimes that means going out of your way to just commit to women full stop and trust that they can carry the franchise for a time. And if men come along for the ride? Like many of them did for "Lois and Clark?" (And like many do for Outlander) then great! But have enough faith to let them be an afterthought Bc that's literally what many women have dealt with for decades now. I don't feel angry when I see DC announcing yet another origin written by a white guy over 50. I just feel....sad. Because it just feels like we give so much and there is no place for us. :/

This is a fascinating convo btw and I'm grateful to all those having it.

Fair enough! And if that's what people are wanting out of this then by all means, cater to the female demo. Like I said, I'm just biased in that I would love a romance that considers readers like me, given how rare books like those are. Despite that though I agree that Lois deserves a book that puts her first and female fans deserve books where they are 100% the focus. And we're in agreement on Frank Miller as well.

As far as your last point, I do agree that that can be the case but I'm not sure I'd agree that's the case here when it comes to the imbalance I sometimes see in romance novels (assuming that's what you're responding too). Again I don't have anything against the books that fall into that category and it would be perfectly fine for this book to be one of those. I just happen to know that I wouldn't enjoy the book likely for whatever reason prevents me from getting into Outlander. And obviously while I can recognize the importance of such a book existing there's still a part of me that would rather the book be something I could enjoy as well.

[misslane]

I'm all for a comic that focuses on Lois and Clark, but my preference would be for it to primarily be a Lois comic. Both Gwenda Bond's novels and even Superwoman with Lana focus on a leading lady with her romantic life playing a significant supporting role. The older and successful Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane comics had her at the center, but romance was definitely an essential part of it and its appeal. So, for me, I'd like Lois to be center stage with Clark and romance having a secondary, but strong, presence.

[Kuwagaton]

Are conway or Spencer bound to Marvel? Well Cary Bates is fresh off a D.C. comic. Tony Daniel, Sami Basri, or Ken Rocafort are the artists I'd like.

A Lois book should come first, but a book where Superman fills in the gaps as a full time co-star would go over better with comic readers.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Are conway or Spencer bound to Marvel? Well Cary Bates is fresh off a D.C. comic. Tony Daniel, Sami Basri, or Ken Rocafort are the artists I'd like.

A Lois book should come first, but a book where Superman fills in the gaps as a full time co-star would go over better with comic readers.

I don't think Conway is exclusive, but Spencer might still be.