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  1. #16
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    That's all well and good, but you're the equivalent of Mxy or a Monitor of Nill. You're omniscient in comparison to even Superman himself let alone the normal people of the DCU. And because of that you're assuming Superman belongs to one guy named Clark Kent. But the fact of the matter is Clark never actually asked to be named Superman. He was given that name by someone. And that name, and what it inspires, is something that's out of Clark's frankly hands (in more stories than one he often wonders the contrast between what is thought of him and who he is). The fact of the matter is that kids in the DCU play with Superman toys. Jon would likely start off recess by yelling "I call Superman" before running out onto the playground. The house of El crest is in fact an S now regardless of how many times Clark corrects people. And yeah, there's an inherent sadness to this simple, nice thing that this nice dude would do for people in his free time turning into an over priced t-shirt, but that largely mirrors what happened in real life, and, as all of us can vouch for, it's led to a lot of good in spite it's gaudy nature.
    I think that's part of the point actually. Clark never meant to change the world the way he has. He wanted to make a difference, help humanity find the future he saw with the Legion, but he never intended to become the symbol he did. He's not selfish of self-centered like that. But there are things beyond even Clark's control and I think this is one of them. And "Superman" and what that means has grown beyond one nice man trying to help people in his spare time. He's part of the cosmic clockwork (to make a Doomsday Clock pun). I think the universe keeps time to the movements of Supermen.

    Then there's the fact that Clark wouldn't be at all mad if Jon came up to him one day and said "so I was wondering if you'd let me call myself Superman now that I'm almost 30." Clark being Clark would likely say "honestly, I was wondering what too you so long." Clark's about the deeds. And it's not like Jon would realistically want to be called anything but Superman when he's old enough. Much like Damian he's basically counting down the days till he's old enough to share the name. If you read Super Sons then you know that the one thing that's never in question is if they want the titles. It's a given.
    Clark would be fine with it, absolutely. I think it'd be one of the proudest moments of his life.

    I don't know why the coronation of Jon Kent taking on the official title of Superman Secondus can't be a huge thing. Why can't it be accompanied by a big adventure or assassination attempt?
    I think it can, but I think there needs to be more to it than "just" that. I think a new Superman should bring a major social shift with it. The change of a Superman should be sort of like the shift to the Industrial Age or the Digital Age (much like how we point to Barry Allen's debut as the rise of the Silver Age even though there was a lot more to it than just one character). If Clark is the face of the First Age of Heroism, the next Superman should (will) be the face of the Second Age, and that should be a big, world changing moment.

    I think we basically want to see the same basic thing, but our timelines are different and we're looking at it with different scopes in mind. I want to see a new Superman bring a new Age with him (you know me and my Super-myth), and that's something to be stretched out some, whereas you're looking at it from the perspective of human generations. As usual, I dont think we're actually all that far off from each other in the spirit of what we're saying.
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  2. #17
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    The thing I like about the Legion timeline and Morrison's One Million--and all the far future timelines from Schwartz and Weisinger comics--is that anything could happen by then. So it give the writers a free hand to create whatever continuity they want. But I look at these as possible futures--it's not set in stone that this the Superman family's ultimate destiny.
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  3. #18
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think that's part of the point actually. Clark never meant to change the world the way he has.
    Yeah, and because of this I think it's fair to assume that--given that humans are humans--there's an inherent level of commodification that comes with it. It's the idea that Morrison was getting at with his bittersweet All Star Superman ending. In the end the special life of this guy gets broken down into formula. Morrison puts it better than me. Here's his break down of Leo Quintum and what the ending of All Star and the star of the Dynasty mean:

    "What he’s doing at the end of the story should, for all its gee–whiz futurity, feel slightly ambiguous, slightly fake, slightly “Hollywood.” Yes, he’s fulfilling Superman’s wishes by cloning an heir to Superman and Lois and inaugurating a Superman dynasty that will last until the end of time – but he’s also commodifying Superman, figuring out how it’s done, turning him into a brand, a franchise, a bigger–and–better “revamp,” the ultimate coming attraction, fresher than fresh, newer than new but familiar too. Quintum has figured out the “formula” for Superman and improved upon it.
    And then you can go back to the start of All Star Superman issue #1 and read the “formula” for yourself, condensed into eight words on the first page and then expanded upon throughout the story! The solar journey is an endless circle naturally. A perfect puzzle that is its own solution.
    In one way, Quintum could be seen to represent the creative team, simultaneously re–empowering a pure myth with the honest fire of Art…while at the same time shooting a jolt of juice through a concept that sells more “S” logo underpants and towels than it does comic books. All tastes catered!"


    There's a natural gluttony to us when we find something that makes us feel good or something that helps us. We're not satisfied with how great that one thing is; we could always use more it seems. So there's no situation where the general public of the DCU would go like "nah fam, I'm good. I totally don't want a second awesome god-man named Superman who wants nothing more than to help." If the son of Superman says "yeah I wanna be Superman just like my dad" the people of Earth will say "when can you start." And Jon was part of this cycle even before he knew his true origins. His parents bought him Superman action figures, shirts, posters, and what-not. He grew up with Superman as a straight up commodity.....then found out that he'd be able to be Superman later in life. There's a bittersweet feeling to this kid's pure and heartwarming ambition simply playing into the gluttonous culture that humans are known for.

    I want to see a new Superman bring a new Age with him (you know me and my Super-myth), and that's something to be stretched out some, whereas you're looking at it from the perspective of human generations.
    I'm trying to impart that I'm looking at it from a perspective of super humanity as dictated by human culture. They are forever linked since the latter is largely birthed from the former, so I think the impact can't be ignored. As sure as we want our Marvel movies more frequently than ever, I feel like a similar sort of commodification would apply to a world with real heroes. I just hope I'm explaining myself well enough. But yeah, I get what you mean.
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  4. #19
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    All true, and well put as usual Superlad. And I get what you're saying (at least, I believe so?).

    You bring up an interesting point with the commodification too. However, I gotta wonder how that rubs up against the slew of other costumed heroes flying around out there. Going by this logic, would Captain Marvel/Shazam have gotten away with his name, or would the media simply have dubbed him "Superman 2?" Would they have just referred to J'onn as "Superman Green?"

    If Jon turns 25 and starts flying around in his father's old costume, yes odds are people would call him Superman, or at least something close to it. Superlad, perhaps (its a good name, Im sure you'll agree ). But I think.....if you look at the superhuman concept from the perspective of those who live among them, there's a certain religious element at play. As Superman fans we're painfully aware of that, given all the Jesus parallels forced down our throats. And people jealously guard their gods. Call a Baptist a Catholic and you'll find yourself in a fight, despite the incredible overlap in the two religions. Would the people of the DCU accept another Superman, or consider him a fake or copy? I mean, other heroes have a tradition of legacy (Flash) or are part of a well known brotherhood (Lanterns) or just dont really matter very much (Misters Terrific). But Superman is different. He's their Odin, Zeus, the god of gods. Consider the reaction people had to the four Reign Supermen; riots broke out between factions who believed in one replacement over the other.

    I dont know how such a thing would play out with Superman, but I wouldn't be surprised to see people jealously guard the Superman name against a new bearer. Jon, assuming he has a long and public history as Superboy, might be seen as a worthy replacement (as Conner might've been at one time too)....but I dunno. Perhaps the people would scramble for more of a good thing, like you suggest.

    Its good food for thought.
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  5. #20
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    All true, and well put as usual Superlad. And I get what you're saying (at least, I believe so?).
    It's a little wonky, I know lol

    However, I gotta wonder how that rubs up against the slew of other costumed heroes flying around out there. Going by this logic, would Captain Marvel/Shazam have gotten away with his name, or would the media simply have dubbed him "Superman 2?" Would they have just referred to J'onn as "Superman Green?"
    Lucky for them, they're contemporaries of Superman during the dawn of the age of heroes. What superhuman culture looks like, and how humanity interprets it, is still being formed. Superman and the Justice League are only two decades old at most. It also helps that the S has become an unintentional brand.

    Superlad, perhaps (its a good name, Im sure you'll agree ).
    As much as I love it, I'm sure Jon would accept nothing less than Superman lol

    Would the people of the DCU accept another Superman, or consider him a fake or copy?
    But we're not talking about some random guy with the correct powerset. It's not even a clone. It's the actual son of Superman who has been trained by the man himself. So long as Clark himself okays the kid I don't really think there's much anyone would have to say.

    That said, I'm sure there would be detractors. There should be. It's part of what makes the concept interesting. In the same way we have the real life "who's better" wars between fans about Reeve and Cavil, I'd want there to be a small representation of that sort of outside fan entitlement and irrational tribalism. That goes along with the commodification of Superman. The simple concept of a son joining his father in the family business suddenly becomes an internet and tabloid flame war on who does it better. But in reality they'd have literally nothing to complain about because now there's two man-gods watching over them. It's a testament to being human.


    Its good food for thought.
    The whole thing is something I often give some pretty long thought to when I've got the time. It's pretty fun.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 08-28-2017 at 06:38 PM.
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  6. #21
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Klar Ken T5477 is the 30th century hero, Superman XX. As a One Piece fan I can dig the sea weakness, but really, it's all about the hair.




  7. #22
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    I thought there was a tragic poignancy to Lois & Clark being unable to have a child because humans and Kryptonians were biologically incompatable, but Jonathan Kent has turned out to be such a delight and such a logical next step for a franchise that's always been about the immigrant experience, I think I have been convinced that a legacy of Supermen throughout history seems fitting.

  8. #23
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    Holy! So Klar Ken ins't something Jurgens took out of his hat? That's way cool!

    Does Kaleb count? They say he is not kryptonian, but he has kryptonian-ish powers, and Lex Luthor used him as a test subject for synthetic kryptonite, as kryptonite affects him.



    By the way, Kaleb was forever forgotten in Luthor's lab, aparently.

  9. #24
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Yep I guess so. Good memory my friend. Funny enough, I was reading those Klar Ken issues yesterday and forgot how kaleb shows up soon after. Ryan and Rubenstein were really on top of things back then, huh?

    Kaleb the rebel Superman is a vintage Busiek idea. It brings three legacy aspects to mind: that blood relationship isn't required, small similarities to the generations story from Byrne with Clark Wayne, and the comparable legacy of Lex. From the ashes of his dead ends in his dad, Lexor, and Jerry, the idea of Luthor II is extrapolated into Luthor LX (lol). The fate of Luthor women, mostly called Lena, eh well...

  10. #25
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    I would like it if we could get something like http://injustice.wikia.com/wiki/Lara_Lane-Kent in the future jon needs a little sister.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I go back and forth on the idea of a Superman dynasty. I like the idea that the Flash Legacy goes on forever, but somehow I like it if Superman and Wonder Woman just exist for a relatively brief period and are impossibly influential. At the same time, various Supermen throughout future history is a really fun idea! Klar Ken T5477, Kal Kent, Unknown Superman and Kent Shakespeare are personal favorites! And I like Jon at least as an idea and I certainly like Chris, so it's not like Clark having kids is a problem to me, to say nothing of Conner. I do come up against the problem that I just don't think Lois is someone who'd want any children, but I digress.

    Also I kind of accidentally made up a headcanon that Supergirl and Brainiac Five have a green-skinned super-strong son who goes on to be the "Superman Purple" that Klyzyzk Klzntplkz mentions in All-Star Superman # 6 and I'm unwilling to let the idea go away. I keep hoping DC will hit on this concept.
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